Hisense LCD TV using a Dual-cell ULED XD panel layer - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 354 Old 05-23-2019, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by KD8118 View Post
According to the CNET article they claim they noticed a very minor halo effect. I wonder what the cause of this is, I came up with 3 possible reasons, feel free to chime in with any other explanation.

1. They are not getting the actual black levels as low as they are going claiming.

2. Software/Hardware issue. Meaning there is a delay between the dimming of light between the first and second panel. Some form of latency issue.

3. All the prototypes used a 1080p panel for grayscale. This would mean one 1080p pixel would control four pixels on a 4K panel. This may leak enough light to cause the halo effect until they use 2 4K panels for one to one pixel control. If this is the case this is extremely interesting as raising dimming zones on a fald display is futile. We can basically have a tv with one hundred thousand dimming zones and it will never solve the problem or get close to it.


Further I initially made a claim that I was afraid that this was vaporware because if a company like Panasonic that showcased this years ago was unsuccessful how would a company like Hisense succeed? Well after some research I stand corrected. Panasonic had the very high end segment in mind with the advent of this technology. This technology made it to about 5 reference monitors designed for editing. These are available right now and I’ve seen reviews on them and they are amazing. They use these for mastering and editing video that will be displayed on consumer televisions and all the reviews state these monitors do things OLED simply cannot. I think we are on cusp of some very amazing lcd televisions.
I see no point in having more than one zone.
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post #32 of 354 Old 05-24-2019, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by KD8118 View Post
According to the CNET article they claim they noticed a very minor halo effect. I wonder what the cause of this is, I came up with 3 possible reasons, feel free to chime in with any other explanation.

1. They are not getting the actual black levels as low as they are going claiming.

2. Software/Hardware issue. Meaning there is a delay between the dimming of light between the first and second panel. Some form of latency issue.

3. All the prototypes used a 1080p panel for grayscale. This would mean one 1080p pixel would control four pixels on a 4K panel. This may leak enough light to cause the halo effect until they use 2 4K panels for one to one pixel control. If this is the case this is extremely interesting as raising dimming zones on a fald display is futile. We can basically have a tv with one hundred thousand dimming zones and it will never solve the problem or get close to it.


Further I initially made a claim that I was afraid that this was vaporware because if a company like Panasonic that showcased this years ago was unsuccessful how would a company like Hisense succeed? Well after some research I stand corrected. Panasonic had the very high end segment in mind with the advent of this technology. This technology made it to about 5 reference monitors designed for editing. These are available right now and I’ve seen reviews on them and they are amazing. They use these for mastering and editing video that will be displayed on consumer televisions and all the reviews state these monitors do things OLED simply cannot. I think we are on cusp of some very amazing lcd televisions.

With a 1080p grayscale panel there will be some haloing as you mentioned... but minor. Which explains why they saw some. The Panasonic reference panel doesn't halo; so the concept is solid, assuming hisense implements it well it should perform just as good. And like you mentioned the final product is slated to be with a 4k grayscale panel so we just need to wait for the next prototype demo... And ya, I'd bet $$ they have some software issues to work out.

I'm excited for this tech to finally make it consumer level. The FALD issues will finally be put to bed... (once they get the hardware/software for this fully tweaked, lol) This tech will give the edge to LCD over OLED (assuming it actually comes to market, and as claimed) Really this thread is the OLED killer thread...
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post #33 of 354 Old 05-24-2019, 12:17 PM
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I can't wait until Sony gets their hands on this technology and offers their implementation. They will take something amazing and make it a legendary set that will be talked about for the next 10 years! Kinda like a pioneer elite plasma or the original Fujitsu!

They already did with the Z9D
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post #34 of 354 Old 05-25-2019, 06:47 AM
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https://www.displaydaily.com/article/display-daily/nanosys-shows-hisense-dual-cell-qd-tv-at-display-week-coming-to-market-in-2020

I wasn’t ready or looking for a new TV yet but can’t wait until this is available. Getting more excited by the day!

Btw I apologize for the grammatical errors and bad formatting of my previous post. Posted on my phone
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post #35 of 354 Old 05-25-2019, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by KD8118 View Post
According to the CNET article they claim they noticed a very minor halo effect. I wonder what the cause of this is, I came up with 3 possible reasons, feel free to chime in with any other explanation.

3. All the prototypes used a 1080p panel for grayscale. This would mean one 1080p pixel would control four pixels on a 4K panel. This may leak enough light to cause the halo effect until they use 2 4K panels for one to one pixel control. If this is the case this is extremely interesting as raising dimming zones on a fald display is futile. We can basically have a tv with one hundred thousand dimming zones and it will never solve the problem or get close to it.
Even on OLED when you have something like bright subtitles on a black background, you get a natural halo effect that I've heard is dependent on a lot of things, like if there's anti-reflective coating on the screen, or even your age/eyesight... I definitely see it on mine, and while FALD definitely adds on top of that, I can't imagine that the bloom from a 4 pixel area (1080p behind 4k) is even visible behind any natural haloing. I think it's more likely to be the other point like there's a delay in the light modulation.
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post #36 of 354 Old 05-25-2019, 11:40 AM
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Too bad it won't be offered in a 75" version anytime soon if these recent articles are correct. In that case I'm looking forward to hearing more about the Hisense 75" U9F quantum dot tv coming out later this year with 1056 zones/2200 nits brightness. It'll be interesting to see how it stacks up against the Vizio Quantum X and perhaps TCL's Mini-LED models also due later this year.
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post #37 of 354 Old 05-26-2019, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by KD8118 View Post
According to the CNET article they claim they noticed a very minor halo effect. I wonder what the cause of this is, I came up with 3 possible reasons, feel free to chime in with any other explanation.

3. All the prototypes used a 1080p panel for grayscale. This would mean one 1080p pixel would control four pixels on a 4K panel. This may leak enough light to cause the halo effect until they use 2 4K panels for one to one pixel control. If this is the case this is extremely interesting as raising dimming zones on a fald display is futile. We can basically have a tv with one hundred thousand dimming zones and it will never solve the problem or get close to it.
Even on OLED when you have something like bright subtitles on a black background, you get a natural halo effect that I've heard is dependent on a lot of things, like if there's anti-reflective coating on the screen, or even your age/eyesight... I definitely see it on mine, and while FALD definitely adds on top of that, I can't imagine that the bloom from a 4 pixel area (1080p behind 4k) is even visible behind any natural haloing. I think it's more likely to be the other point like there's a delay in the light modulation.
It seems as a software issue is the most plausible reason. I’m curious as to why they are changing to a 4K grayscale panel last minute. I am no expert but I feel this will actually help the video processing despite the fact there will be 4x the amount of pixels.

Hisense needs to get this right before the big boys jump in. It would be in their best interest to release a remarkable product. This is their chance to gain a very strong foothold.

I actually ventured into the OLED forum today and saw a thread mentioning this. Wow... lots of hostility!! I don’t understand why anyone wouldn’t be happy about this. I would be perfectly happy with OLED if it didn’t burn in. I even understand that the chance of burn in is remote but it’s more of a mindset. I wouldn’t want to sit down and start watching television and start thinking if I’m watching television properly or am I risking burn in! Further reading on all the benefits of this we may actually surpass OLED. The reference monitors that use this technology basically state that at low light levels they are matching OLED but when things get bright they far surpass them as they basically get to near zero light with insanely bright highlights. The oled Sony reference monitor even has a light on the front panel indicating when performance diminishes because of the limitations of the technology.

I learned so much in my research and I’m not sharing this to knock oled but it was interesting to me so I thought it would be to other people less knowledgeable as well. Basically when an HDR image gets really bright the oled panel automatically dims the whole panel as a form of self preservation.

Despite all the above, one of the best pictures I’ve ever seen has been on an oled television.
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post #38 of 354 Old 05-26-2019, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by KD8118 View Post
It seems as a software issue is the most plausible reason. I’m curious as to why they are changing to a 4K grayscale panel last minute. I am no expert but I feel this will actually help the video processing despite the fact there will be 4x the amount of pixels.

Hisense needs to get this right before the big boys jump in. It would be in their best interest to release a remarkable product. This is their chance to gain a very strong foothold.

I actually ventured into the OLED forum today and saw a thread mentioning this. Wow... lots of hostility!! I don’t understand why anyone wouldn’t be happy about this. I would be perfectly happy with OLED if it didn’t burn in. I even understand that the chance of burn in is remote but it’s more of a mindset. I wouldn’t want to sit down and start watching television and start thinking if I’m watching television properly or am I risking burn in! Further reading on all the benefits of this we may actually surpass OLED. The reference monitors that use this technology basically state that at low light levels they are matching OLED but when things get bright they far surpass them as they basically get to near zero light with insanely bright highlights. The oled Sony reference monitor even has a light on the front panel indicating when performance diminishes because of the limitations of the technology.

I learned so much in my research and I’m not sharing this to knock oled but it was interesting to me so I thought it would be to other people less knowledgeable as well. Basically when an HDR image gets really bright the oled panel automatically dims the whole panel as a form of self preservation.

Despite all the above, one of the best pictures I’ve ever seen has been on an oled television.
The OLED crowd seemingly gets their panties twisted when anything threatens their beloved holy grail. I wouldn't touch an OLED with a 10 foot pole, until the burn in issue is solved, and the brightness gets increased.
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As an oled owner I always welcome new tech that pushes the edge. I love my oled but I won't do retro gaming on it.

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The OLED crowd seemingly gets their panties twisted when anything threatens their beloved holy grail. I wouldn't touch an OLED with a 10 foot pole, until the burn in issue is solved, and the brightness gets increased.


Ok. So burn in is still a big issue? I was looking at the LG C8 until I read more about OLEDs and saw the Hisense H9F coming out.

Are there any reviews up for the H8F?


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post #41 of 354 Old 05-29-2019, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by KD8118 View Post
It seems as a software issue is the most plausible reason. I’m curious as to why they are changing to a 4K grayscale panel last minute. I am no expert but I feel this will actually help the video processing despite the fact there will be 4x the amount of pixels.

Hisense needs to get this right before the big boys jump in. It would be in their best interest to release a remarkable product. This is their chance to gain a very strong foothold.

I actually ventured into the OLED forum today and saw a thread mentioning this. Wow... lots of hostility!! I don’t understand why anyone wouldn’t be happy about this. I would be perfectly happy with OLED if it didn’t burn in. I even understand that the chance of burn in is remote but it’s more of a mindset. I wouldn’t want to sit down and start watching television and start thinking if I’m watching television properly or am I risking burn in! Further reading on all the benefits of this we may actually surpass OLED. The reference monitors that use this technology basically state that at low light levels they are matching OLED but when things get bright they far surpass them as they basically get to near zero light with insanely bright highlights. The oled Sony reference monitor even has a light on the front panel indicating when performance diminishes because of the limitations of the technology.

I learned so much in my research and I’m not sharing this to knock oled but it was interesting to me so I thought it would be to other people less knowledgeable as well. Basically when an HDR image gets really bright the oled panel automatically dims the whole panel as a form of self preservation.

Despite all the above, one of the best pictures I’ve ever seen has been on an oled television.
May have been in the works for a while but just not mentioned until they were certain they could pull it off. I think this tech would lend itself well to an IPS color panel and VA gray scale panel. i wonder if it was considered.
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post #42 of 354 Old 05-29-2019, 09:14 AM
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Ok. So burn in is still a big issue? I was looking at the LG C8 until I read more about OLEDs and saw the Hisense H9F coming out.

Are there any reviews up for the H8F?


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I don't know how big of an issue it actually is. The OLED crowd will vigorously defend that its no issue. I feel as if you only use a television for a few years at most it shouldn't be a problem. I view OLED as a consumable, Kinda like a battery. The more you use it the more it degrades. I mentioned in a previous post that piece of mind is the biggest factor in me not getting one. I don't want to have to strategically watch television to avoid burn in or uneven aging. TV is my sanctuary it should come with peace and no further thoughts even if those thoughts turn out to be unfounded. Further anyone here with a wife? I would love trying to tell my wife how she needs to operate the OLED television!!! I can totally picture coming home seeing a torch mode Disney movie on pause because my toddlers are eating a snack!


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May have been in the works for a while but just not mentioned until they were certain they could pull it off. I think this tech would lend itself well to an IPS color panel and VA gray scale panel. i wonder if it was considered.
What is your reasoning for this? For the increased contrast of the VA and the better viewing angle of the IPS? I feel like this may introduce several more issues as the two panels types have different pixel structures so they won't align properly, and further they work at completely different latencies. The one Panasonic developed works solely on IPS and has been getting tremendous results. A negative of IPS is poorer contrast but these method seems to have solved the problem. We may be better off just using IPS altogether as opposed to VA. Especially since the Cnet article claims the viewing angle issues of the VA panel are compounded by the multiple panels. This is where other manufacturers will come in with their own solutions and tweaks. I can see LG releasing an IPS panel solution while someone else may try and solve the issues of using 2 completely separate panel types.
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I don't know how big of an issue it actually is. The OLED crowd will vigorously defend that its no issue. I feel as if you only use a television for a few years at most it shouldn't be a problem. I view OLED as a consumable, Kinda like a battery. The more you use it the more it degrades. I mentioned in a previous post that piece of mind is the biggest factor in me not getting one. I don't want to have to strategically watch television to avoid burn in or uneven aging. TV is my sanctuary it should come with peace and no further thoughts even if those thoughts turn out to be unfounded. Further anyone here with a wife? I would love trying to tell my wife how she needs to operate the OLED television!!! I can totally picture coming home seeing a torch mode Disney movie on pause because my toddlers are eating a snack!

Good points. I view my TV the same way and it would not be fun to always worry about how I am using the TV. And the wife is a big concern here too lmao. She will sometimes forget to turn the tv off and let it sit on one screen for extended periods of time.

LED it is. Now to decide which one.



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post #44 of 354 Old 05-29-2019, 09:44 AM
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I don't know how big of an issue it actually is. The OLED crowd will vigorously defend that its no issue. I feel as if you only use a television for a few years at most it shouldn't be a problem. I view OLED as a consumable, Kinda like a battery. The more you use it the more it degrades. I mentioned in a previous post that piece of mind is the biggest factor in me not getting one. I don't want to have to strategically watch television to avoid burn in or uneven aging. TV is my sanctuary it should come with peace and no further thoughts even if those thoughts turn out to be unfounded. Further anyone here with a wife? I would love trying to tell my wife how she needs to operate the OLED television!!! I can totally picture coming home seeing a torch mode Disney movie on pause because my toddlers are eating a snack!




What is your reasoning for this? For the increased contrast of the VA and the better viewing angle of the IPS? I feel like this may introduce several more issues as the two panels types have different pixel structures so they won't align properly, and further they work at completely different latencies. The one Panasonic developed works solely on IPS and has been getting tremendous results. A negative of IPS is poorer contrast but these method seems to have solved the problem. We may be better off just using IPS altogether as opposed to VA. Especially since the Cnet article claims the viewing angle issues of the VA panel are compounded by the multiple panels. This is where other manufacturers will come in with their own solutions and tweaks. I can see LG releasing an IPS panel solution while someone else may try and solve the issues of using 2 completely separate panel types.
Well, they are using 2 VA panels so dispersion will be an issue unless they do a layer like Sony and Samsung which will promote blooming and have other minor artifacts. Any 2 panels have different latencies, you simply need to optimise regardless of type when fused. Pixels are pixels. Alignment should vary by panel type. The idea is VA in the back to prevent blooming to a greater degree and IPS in the front for dispersion. Perhaps 2 fused ips panels would also be great but they are not doing that.

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I wonder why they chose the VA route. I would be curious to see both methods and the differences.
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At SID Display Week 2019 BOE demod a dual layer LCD calling it ''BD CELL''. starts at 06:10


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post #47 of 354 Old 06-30-2019, 08:33 PM
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At SID Display Week 2019 BOE demod a dual layer LCD calling it ''BD CELL''. starts at 06:10


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vsxp...youtu.be&t=381

Thanks for posting! That looks phenomenal. Seems like they've solved all the problems, Viewing angle doesn't look bad either. I cant wait to get this TV.


*Edit

Re-watching the video I heard him say 2 million to one contrast!!! This seems more in line with the VA panels they are using. The Panasonic was getting a million to one contrast with the ips panels. I always thought they were being conservative and this guy just confirmed it. I would even guess higher than 2 million to one. When this comes out it will probably be the best TV on the market regardless of price.

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post #48 of 354 Old 07-01-2019, 03:39 AM
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There's a lot more to a tv than just contrast ratio so while it will likely be a great value, way too premature for for a best ever type claim. It did seem to hold up well off access, more so than you'd expect from a normal VA panel.

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There's a lot more to a tv than just contrast ratio so while it will likely be a great value, way too premature for for a best ever type claim. It did seem to hold up well off access, more so than you'd expect from a normal VA panel.



You are right, jumped the gun a little there! I have hopes that this will change the industry and I think it will!
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Chinese media reporting first Dual Cell model to be released in July.
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Chinese media reporting first Dual Cell model to be released in July.

Any further info on this? This July or next July? Is it talking about the Hisense product?
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Innolux, in collaboration with Chinese television makers Hisense, Skyworth, and Konka, is introducing dual-cell LCD technology for high dynamic range performance in televisions.
https://technology.ihs.com/610426/di...ew-way-forward
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post #53 of 354 Old 07-02-2019, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
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*according a chinese orientated site Ínnolux has developed and promoted the dual cell technology to chinese television makers (such as Hisense, Skyworth, and Konka)
http://liujinyuan.com.cn/post/dual-c...y-forward.html


It looks like both Innolux and BOE offer dual cell panels
- Innolux panel modulator at UltraHD
- BOE panel FullHD modulator at UltraHD
https://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/n/Chinese...t-Display-Week

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*according a chinese orientated site Ínnolux has developed and promoted the dual cell technology to chinese television makers (such as Hisense, Skyworth, and Konka)
http://liujinyuan.com.cn/post/dual-c...y-forward.html


It looks like both Innolux and BOE offer dual cell panels
- Innolux panel modulator at UltraHD
- BOE panel FullHD modulator at UltraHD
https://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/n/Chinese...t-Display-Week

Wow, Very informative. I hope they go with a BOE cell. In the previous video at the BOE booth the panel looked amazing. There was an article about a month ago saying the Hisense dual layer TV suffered from bad vewing angles and still had blooming. This may have been an Innolux cell because the 2 newest videos I've seen using the BOE panel show excellent viewing angles and they specifically mentioned No blooming. Person being interviewed even went as far to say that not only is this as good as OLED but it surpasses it!
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I'm a little concerned with footage from their demo. Will this dim each individual pixel to the proper light level or will it only have two values on or off? The demo below suggest that the picture is either on or off. For instance there is no gradation in the soccer player, just a full torch silhouette of him. You should see dimmer areas within his body and his clothing. The second picture may indicate there may be some dimming going on if you look at his hair area, but its inconclusive. This would be a bummer if its the case.



Any thoughts?
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post #56 of 354 Old 07-03-2019, 07:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by KD8118 View Post
I'm a little concerned with footage from their demo. Will this dim each individual pixel to the proper light level or will it only have two values on or off? The demo below suggest that the picture is either on or off. For instance there is no gradation in the soccer player, just a full torch silhouette of him. You should see dimmer areas within his body and his clothing. The second picture may indicate there may be some dimming going on if you look at his hair area, but its inconclusive. This would be a bummer if its the case.



Any thoughts?
Katzmeier, who was given the opportunity to take a closer look at the dual cell Hisense prototype, saw some minor blooming but it was not much to worry about according to him. His main concern was off axis performance. Personally i wonder about motion with a two panel design.
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post #57 of 354 Old 07-03-2019, 09:42 AM
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I'm a little concerned with footage from their demo. Will this dim each individual pixel to the proper light level or will it only have two values on or off? The demo below suggest that the picture is either on or off. For instance there is no gradation in the soccer player, just a full torch silhouette of him. You should see dimmer areas within his body and his clothing. The second picture may indicate there may be some dimming going on if you look at his hair area, but its inconclusive. This would be a bummer if its the case.



Any thoughts?

Speaking for the Hisense ULED XD it also has FALD. So the backlight light itself can dim in the zones. And the demo was exaggerating the effect with the binary images showing the light "zones". i.e. on or off.

Otherwise the second panel would only be good for pure black and anything not black would be no different than a FALD is now. The 2nd panel is greyscale in nature, not binary.

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post #58 of 354 Old 07-03-2019, 09:58 AM
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There's a lot more to a tv than just contrast ratio so while it will likely be a great value, way too premature for for a best ever type claim. It did seem to hold up well off access, more so than you'd expect from a normal VA panel.
The tech itself is the future of LCD. Contrast is probably one of the most important aspects of picture quality technically and perceived. This is why LCD's with FALD backlighting & OLED exist. If contrast didn't matter they wouldn't have been trying to improve it and get "good blacks" for all of these years.


Really this tech will put LCD on an even playing field with OLED. Only remaining thing would be viewing angle...



And of course all of this assumes this actually comes to the consumer market. I'll believe it once I see the first review
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post #59 of 354 Old 07-03-2019, 11:50 AM
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Speaking for the Hisense ULED XD it also has FALD. So the backlight light itself can dim in the zones. And the demo was exaggerating the effect with the binary images showing the light "zones". i.e. on or off.

Otherwise the second panel would only be good for pure black and anything not black would be no different than a FALD is now. The 2nd panel is greyscale in nature, not binary.
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The tech itself is the future of LCD. Contrast is probably one of the most important aspects of picture quality technically and perceived. This is why LCD's with FALD backlighting & OLED exist. If contrast didn't matter they wouldn't have been trying to improve it and get "good blacks" for all of these years.


Really this tech will put LCD on an even playing field with OLED. Only remaining thing would be viewing angle...



And of course all of this assumes this actually comes to the consumer market. I'll believe it once I see the first review

Can you clarify your first post? Are you saying the gray scale panel is only binary or it can dim each individual pixel?


I agree completely with your second post. Even if this TV isnt perfect this technology will eventually be if it comes to market. The most recent videos show good viewing angles and a mention of no blooming. So it seems like things are progressing.
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post #60 of 354 Old 07-03-2019, 11:59 AM
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Can you clarify your first post? Are you saying the gray scale panel is only binary or it can dim each individual pixel?


I agree completely with your second post. Even if this TV isnt perfect this technology will eventually be if it comes to market. The most recent videos show good viewing angles and a mention of no blooming. So it seems like things are progressing.
A Hisense Rep talks more about this at Charbax on You Tube..
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