Hisense LCD TV using a Dual-cell ULED XD panel layer - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 259 Old 07-26-2019, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by js950 View Post
Thanks for that but really, those pics are not representative of what one sees on the Sony 65x950G in the real world and is setup like a propaganda piece. That said, I have no doubt that the U9E has significantly better contrast. I'm just saying that the Sony doesn't look that grayed out in use. Don't know whether it's exposure or settings but they made it look like a poor IPS panel. Likely turned up the exposure to give the U9E more pop while leaving the Sony backlight at full blast.
Not propaganda...

They are longer term exposure photos to show how much light leakage the Sony has; and how little the U9E has. They have details on the camera settings in the article and fully explain why they did it. All photos taken were with same settings. What you see represents how much light leakage the Sony has (and every other FALD LCD today).

It really doesn't matter on the setting of backlight, the Sony has at best a ~ 4,000:1 native contrast with FALD added just trying to make the contrast better with tricks. It can't do this trick all the time... especially with HDR. The native contrast on the LCD itself is just too low to stop blooming/leakage.

Where as the U9E has a 150,000:1 contrast native and FALD; measurements have shown it to be able to do ~400,000:1 with the FALD activated.

The photos are there to show how much better the panel is on the U9E. And you see it's significant as you mentioned.

It means the *end of blooming* from FALD
near perfect blacks
excellent blacks with very bright images (HDR)
Clean/clear near black images (unlike OLED which struggles with near black uniformity)
better color


This tech takes LCD to the next level... Once this is out and matures it's going to be difficult to choose OLED as it will offer little to no benefit. And in fact it will actually start to fall behind; as OLED can't do HDR well and it's not good at near black. These next gen LCDs will be good at both.

What's also exciting is the ULED XD slated for the US is suppose to use a new generation panel with closer to 250,000:1 native. We'll see when it gets here; even if it's still 150,000:1 as the current TV that's amazing in itself.

I've been reading some of the Chinese review on baidu and once thing struck me that I didn't expect. Some reviews mention the viewing angle is also excellent. This comes as a surprise. Apparently the dual layer design somehow helps the viewing angle.

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post #122 of 259 Old 07-26-2019, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by KD8118 View Post
It will pull away from oled when brightness goes up. This current model has similar nits to current oled.

As far as top brands not incorporating this technology you are wrong. Sony and Panasonic use this for $40,000 professional mastering monitors. The reason they didn’t bring this to the consumer level is they just don’t care. They rather charge you $4,000 for a fald display. Now we have Hisense putting their feet to the fire so we will see how things turn out.

This is in Chinese and they were very clear that the photos were taken with settings to expose the light leakage. They were very forthcoming about this and I wouldn’t call this propaganda. I would say this is the most affirmative proof capturing the difference in light control between the two. Trying to compare black levels from photos on an lcd screen is very difficult. This shows it as plain as day.
Had I read your post I wouldn't have replied; I think you said it better with less words
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post #123 of 259 Old 07-26-2019, 06:42 AM
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“I've been reading some of the Chinese review on baidu and once thing struck me that I didn't expect. Some reviews mention the viewing angle is also excellent. This comes as a surprise. Apparently the dual layer design somehow helps the viewing angle.”

Hmmmmm. I remember reading a review from a US publication saying the viewing angles were terrible and compounded by the second panel.

I would guess they used a similar coating to Samsung and Sony to accomplish the wider viewing angles and since this has such a high native contrast it doesn’t diminish the contrast like it does on the Sony and Samsung.
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post #124 of 259 Old 07-26-2019, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by KD8118 View Post
It will pull away from oled when brightness goes up. This current model has similar nits to current oled.

As far as top brands not incorporating this technology you are wrong. Sony and Panasonic use this for $40,000 professional mastering monitors. The reason they didn’️t bring this to the consumer level is they just don’️t care. They rather charge you $4,000 for a fald display. Now we have Hisense putting their feet to the fire so we will see how things turn out.

This is in Chinese and they were very clear that the photos were taken with settings to expose the light leakage. They were very forthcoming about this and I wouldn’️t call this propaganda. I would say this is the most affirmative proof capturing the difference in light control between the two. Trying to compare black levels from photos on an lcd screen is very difficult. This shows it as plain as day.
Had I read your post I wouldn't have replied; I think you said it better with less words [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
Thanks bud!!! I’m too stupid to know how to like a post that’s why I’m replying!
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post #125 of 259 Old 07-26-2019, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KD8118 View Post
“I've been reading some of the Chinese review on baidu and once thing struck me that I didn't expect. Some reviews mention the viewing angle is also excellent. This comes as a surprise. Apparently the dual layer design somehow helps the viewing angle.”

Hmmmmm. I remember reading a review from a US publication saying the viewing angles were terrible and compounded by the second panel.

I would guess they used a similar coating to Samsung and Sony to accomplish the wider viewing angles and since this has such a high native contrast it doesn’t diminish the contrast like it does on the Sony and Samsung.
Agreed, I'm skeptical too. CES models were prototypes so ya who knows what they did or didn't have.
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post #126 of 259 Old 07-26-2019, 07:01 AM - Thread Starter
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They use VA panels which have lesser viewing angle. Katzmaier noticed that viewing angle need some work when he checked out a prototype. So maybe these reviews are propaganda pieces....

Anyway this TV actually having lots of cons is not that relevant important is that lots of manufacturers see potential and come up with their own version, that way we will see a decent product sooner or later.
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post #127 of 259 Old 07-26-2019, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
They use VA panels which have lesser viewing angle. Katzmaier noticed that viewing angle need some work when he checked out a prototype. So maybe these reviews are propaganda pieces....

Anyway this TV actually having lots of cons is not that relevant important is that lots of manufacturers see potential and come up with their own version, that way we will see a decent product sooner or later.

No, while the professional reviews mentioned it so did the reviews from the Sony Playstation forum in China I read. They complained about the lag on the TV (125 to 150ms apparently and not good for gaming) but said the image itself was outstanding; including the side viewing angles. These are just normal consumers...

So there is something different on the U9E than the prototypes shown for the ULED XD. Perhaps missing a layer or something? We'll find out when (if) it arrives

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post #128 of 259 Old 07-26-2019, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
They use VA panels which have lesser viewing angle. Katzmaier noticed that viewing angle need some work when he checked out a prototype. So maybe these reviews are propaganda pieces....

Anyway this TV actually having lots of cons is not that relevant important is that lots of manufacturers see potential and come up with their own version, that way we will see a decent product sooner or later.
Could be but if you search back a few weeks and find the BOE video you will see video of this display from all angles. The dual panel they had on display had excellent viewing angles.

Who knows... maybe they put an oled panel in the display model!!!
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post #129 of 259 Old 07-26-2019, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
They use VA panels which have lesser viewing angle. Katzmaier noticed that viewing angle need some work when he checked out a prototype. So maybe these reviews are propaganda pieces....

Anyway this TV actually having lots of cons is not that relevant important is that lots of manufacturers see potential and come up with their own version, that way we will see a decent product sooner or later.

No, while the professional reviews mentioned it so did the reviews from the Sony Playstation forum in China. They complained about the lag on the TV (125 to 150ms apparently and not good for gaming) but said the image itself was outstanding; including the side viewing angles. These are just normal consumers...

So there is something different on the U9E than the prototypes shown for the ULED XD. Perhaps missing a layer or something? We'll find out when (if) it arrives [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
I thought this myself. The first generation probably won’t be good for gaming.
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post #130 of 259 Old 07-26-2019, 07:44 AM
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One more quick addition. I have a similar stance as 8mile. If this tv is amazing I would obviously welcome it but I see it as more of a proof of concept at this point.
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post #131 of 259 Old 07-26-2019, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KD8118 View Post
Could be but if you search back a few weeks and find the BOE video you will see video of this display from all angles. The dual panel they had on display had excellent viewing angles.

Who knows... maybe they put an oled panel in the display model!!!
Right. C|NET article two months ago

Chris Porter, director of product planning Hisense (USA)
"When you stack two VA panels, you compound your viewing angle issues. We know it's important and it's on our radar."


The BOE BD Cell demo TV actually is the Hisense U9E.

Hisense U9E add


BOE at SID Display Week mai 2019
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post #132 of 259 Old 07-26-2019, 08:36 AM
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Video with it skipped to the time... side viewing looks good to me. I wonder if they added a filter like Samsung/Sony did this year.

The ULED XD is suppose to have a newer generation panel than the U9E. So it's quite possible it's not the same viewing experience; but using a prototype to guess anything will never yield good results.

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post #133 of 259 Old 07-26-2019, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
https://youtu.be/VsxpUZaggcw?t=383

Video with it skipped to the time... side viewing looks good to me. I wonder if they added a filter like Samsung/Sony did this year.

The ULED XD is suppose to have a newer generation panel than the U9E. So it's quite possible it's not the same viewing experience; but using a prototype to guess anything will never yield good results.
How can the prototype (ULED XD) have a newer generation panel than the actual model in the store (U9E)?

All i am saying in my post is that info contradict itself with Hisense C|NET statements in may (demoing the ULED XD viewing angle issues at closer look) versus BOE demo of the same TV in may (viewing angle look superb). Aside from conflicting info we know that VA panel viewing angle is not among LCD panel tech best. ANd as stated, using two AV panels sandwiched add viewing angle issues. For the time being i go with Katzmaier close up off angle observations in propper viewing environment. I expect viewing angle will improve somewhat in actual model. Maybe walking by in bright light off angle will look better.
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post #134 of 259 Old 07-26-2019, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
How can the prototype (ULED XD) have a newer generation panel than the actual model in the store (U9E)?

All i am saying in my post is that info contradict itself with Hisense C|NET statements in may (demoing the ULED XD viewing angle issues at closer look) versus BOE demo of the same TV in may (viewing angle look superb). Aside from conflicting info we know that VA panel viewing angle is not among LCD panel tech best. ANd as stated, using two AV panels sandwiched add viewing angle issues. For the time being i go with Katzmaier close up off angle observations in propper viewing environment. I expect viewing angle will improve somewhat in actual model. Maybe walking by in bright light off angle will look better.
A different event the tech stated it was a prototype panel, as well it's been indicated that some of the prototypes had quantum dots some didn't. So whatever they were showing for the ULED XD was a work in progress. At least that was my take on it...

Hisense has also stated the prototype panel was 4k front (color) 2k rear (monochrome). The final version would be 4k front/4k rear.
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post #135 of 259 Old 07-26-2019, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
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A different event the tech stated it was a prototype panel, as well it's been indicated that some of the prototypes had quantum dots some didn't. So whatever they were showing for the ULED XD was a work in progress. At least that was my take on it...

Hisense has also stated the prototype panel was 4k front (color) 2k rear (monochrome). The final version would be 4k front/4k rear.
Shurely prototype is a work in progress and there were several versions, it looks like there were only two versions at that point prior to the consumer version though, but folks at C|NET demo, and their were several Hisense people there, were up to date and well informed at that point, so when they say it is up our radar, off angle could use some improvement, they will not come up with a 4K/4K consumer product with excellent viewing angle two months later.


In a dark room viewing angle issues will be more noticable.

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post #136 of 259 Old 07-27-2019, 04:00 AM
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.... those pics are not representative of what one sees on the Sony 65x950G in the real world and is setup like a propaganda piece. ...
Your choice of word is actually spot on. That would be the exact word used by the Chinese themselves.
Here's a more informative piece that highlights U9E superiority in resolving fine black details, as well as revealing the shortcomings of using a 2k light source. Enjoy the piece.

https://www.znds.com/tv-1150652-1-1.html
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post #137 of 259 Old 07-27-2019, 06:52 AM
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Your choice of word is actually spot on. That would be the exact word used by the Chinese themselves.
Here's a more informative piece that highlights U9E superiority in resolving fine black details, as well as revealing the shortcomings of using a 2k light source. Enjoy the piece.

https://www.znds.com/tv-1150652-1-1.html
Nice piece and I was not in any way implying that the Hisense was not clearly superior in contrast, just that that when you change the exposure, photos and compares are not real world. What Hisense is doing here is much appreciated and reviewers shouldn't need to denigrate the big dogs from other countries to make the point. With the amount of light control they have, Hisense may also be able to approach Sony motion. You mentioned the issue with a 1080 back panel and I personally don't see it as an issue. Of course 4k becomes pixel level light control like OLED and they will be able to claim that in marketing but I'm sure that 1080 light control of a 4K panel looks very near that unless you're quite close. I'm also interested in how they got that sort of off axis success with VA panels.

If they get the processing and motion pretty right and make a 75", I will strongly consider it as my next set.

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post #138 of 259 Old 07-27-2019, 10:22 AM
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Great review with some new revelations!

Firstly this technology resolves more detail than oled. For whoever doesn’t want to read the translation the lcd displays tiny specs of dust on a piece of glass that the oled does not.

Secondly the viewing angles seem to have been addressed. They claim the best viewing angles they’ve seen on lcd but who knows? I would be happy with just good viewing angles as opposed to bad.

They also did a dark room test and the screen appeared completely black like an oled would. I think the reviewer stated he is very familiar with oled and this tv emulated what an oled would display in dark room conditions.

Also stated a 55 and 75 inch model is coming next year with 2 4K panels as the final model.

I wonder how many nits they can bump this up to before we get light leakage? As of now it seems this set is very similar to current oled in performance, we will pull away from oled if they can crank up the brightness without major light leakage. Also remember now we need less nits just like oled since we have better light control.
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post #139 of 259 Old 07-27-2019, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Begin september is IFA. Hopefully there will be a special room demo so reviewers can tell us their impressions.
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post #140 of 259 Old 07-31-2019, 07:28 PM
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So far I’ve read ULED would start to be available only in 2020, but found this no German Amazon https://www.amazon.de/Hisense-H65U8B-Fernseher-DolbyVision-USB-Aufnahmefunktion/dp/B07R7VFW5P?tag=imas05-21
Is this a different ULED from dual LED U9F?
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Originally Posted by mirekti View Post
So far I’ve read ULED would start to be available only in 2020, but found this no German Amazon https://www.amazon.de/Hisense-H65U8B...?tag=imas05-21
Is this a different ULED from dual LED U9F?
Not 100% sure but i think that's their version of the h9f in the states
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post #142 of 259 Old 08-03-2019, 09:32 AM
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ee74qdPcmY

Hisense briefly mentioned! Keep in mind this is over $30,000 and uses an ips panel. Hisense uses a VA panel which will have a minimum of 3x the contrast. Even with an IPS it’s amazing!

Side note he claims that new Apple display will use this technology. Don’t know if his information is correct on that. I hope so because if Apple is in fact using it you know they will do it right and set the bar very high.
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post #143 of 259 Old 08-03-2019, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KD8118 View Post

Hisense briefly mentioned! Keep in mind this is over $30,000 and uses an ips panel. Hisense uses a VA panel which will have a minimum of 3x the contrast. Even with an IPS it’s amazing!

Side note he claims that new Apple display will use this technology. Don’t know if his information is correct on that. I hope so because if Apple is in fact using it you know they will do it right and set the bar very high.
Thanks for sharing this. Ya the VA panel will perform different. Be interesting to see when it arrives. So far reviews are good on the u9e for everything but gaming (high latency).
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post #144 of 259 Old 08-08-2019, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KD8118 View Post
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ee74qdPcmY

Hisense briefly mentioned! Keep in mind this is over $30,000 and uses an ips panel. Hisense uses a VA panel which will have a minimum of 3x the contrast. Even with an IPS it’s amazing!

Side note he claims that new Apple display will use this technology. Don’t know if his information is correct on that. I hope so because if Apple is in fact using it you know they will do it right and set the bar very high.
They patented their own version back in 2016:

https://appleinsider.com/articles/16...ke-hdr-images-

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post #145 of 259 Old 08-19-2019, 09:09 AM
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Any reliable estimates of when this will hit the North American market?
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post #146 of 259 Old 08-26-2019, 07:52 AM
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I'm interested in this but the really high input lag is putting me off, hopefully they can get that down to at least sub 40ms.
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post #147 of 259 Old 08-26-2019, 08:59 AM
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I'm interested in this but the really high input lag is putting me off, hopefully they can get that down to at least sub 40ms.
I think it's a wrap for this model. Hopefully next year they focus more on input lag. Needs to be at least in the mid 20s to be a consideration. Definitely sub 33ms at an absolute minimum.

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post #148 of 259 Old 08-26-2019, 01:20 PM
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I'm interested in this but the really high input lag is putting me off, hopefully they can get that down to at least sub 40ms.



Apparently Sony has overcame this problem. If you watch Vincent's review on Sony's professional monitor he claims input lag is very good and you can play video games if you wish. So I hope sony gets in the game too
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post #149 of 259 Old 08-27-2019, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dargor42 View Post
I'm interested in this but the really high input lag is putting me off, hopefully they can get that down to at least sub 40ms.


Apparently Sony has overcame this problem. If you watch Vincent's review on Sony's professional monitor he claims input lag is very good and you can play video games if you wish. So I hope sony gets in the game too
TCL needs better video processing chips (faster).

In regards to the Sony I sure hope in a $30k professional monitor you get top of the line...

For me I could care less about 40ms... Even 150ms... I don't game.
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post #150 of 259 Old 08-27-2019, 08:31 PM
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I’m not a big gamer either. The fact that Sony has done it proves that it’s a viable technology capable of competing with other formats. If Sony didn’t accomplish this there would be discussions saying dual layer lcd is not capable of acceptable lag.
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