Hisense LCD TV using a Dual-cell ULED XD panel layer - Page 8 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #211 of 259 Old 09-12-2019, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
Hopefully they have some breakthroughs aligning the panels so they can do a 4k <-> 4k dual panel. Although from what Paul said a 4k front with a 2k rear is still sufficient.
Frankly, a "4K" front panel with a 1280x720 rear panel would be enough.
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post #212 of 259 Old 09-12-2019, 11:11 AM
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The viewing angles of this XD model blow away Hisense conventional LCD. Just look at the video that KD8118 linked above starting around 7 minutes. Much less of the typical VA color desaturation due to light bleed washing out the color - especially on reds.
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post #213 of 259 Old 09-12-2019, 11:20 AM
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The viewing angles of this XD model blow away Hisense conventional LCD. Just look at the video that KD8118 linked above starting around 7 minutes. Much less of the typical VA color desaturation due to light bleed washing out the color - especially on reds.

I noticed that as well! You can also see the punch the higher contrast gives! The person filming even mentions that it doesn't look like they are trying to tone down the standard comparison model next to the dual layer. He said there is a significant difference between the two.
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post #214 of 259 Old 09-12-2019, 11:44 AM
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The real question for consumers is whether they would choose the dual layer LCD over the OLED for the same price? Hisense has stated that it plans to price it head to head against OLED pricing (assume C9 pricing equivalent).
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post #215 of 259 Old 09-12-2019, 11:52 AM
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The real question for consumers is whether they would choose the dual layer LCD over the OLED for the same price? Hisense has stated that it plans to price it head to head against OLED pricing (assume C9 pricing equivalent).

I dont think anyone but a purist would choose oled. Peace of mind about never having to worry about burn in and the television will look the same for at least a decade go a long way. This is assuming recognized brands like Sony, Samsung get in the game. If we just have a sole Chinese brand that nobody has ever heard of, It would be a lot harder for them to disrupt the industry.
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post #216 of 259 Old 09-12-2019, 02:13 PM
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the real question for consumers is whether they would choose the dual layer lcd over the oled for the same price? Hisense has stated that it plans to price it head to head against oled pricing (assume c9 pricing equivalent).
easily

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post #217 of 259 Old 09-12-2019, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by 8KCRT View Post
The real question for consumers is whether they would choose the dual layer LCD over the OLED for the same price? Hisense has stated that it plans to price it head to head against OLED pricing (assume C9 pricing equivalent).
I went looking at Paul Gray's twitter account after watching that "interview". One post was really interesting in regards to this topic... apparently Philips has a budget OLED coming. However it's pricing didn't seem nearly as low as I've been some of the LG units. Might just be initial MSRP.

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Originally Posted by Paul gray (twitter)
More Paul Gray Retweeted AVForums.com
This may turn out to be the biggest (non) announcement at #IFA2019 in TV as it would appear to be the first move to bring OLED TV closer to the mainstream. Significant! @TPVisionPaul Gray added,


https://twitter.com/AVForums/status/1169610770813988865

direct link to forum post:
https://www.avforums.com/news/philip...et-4k-tv.16529

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post #218 of 259 Old 09-12-2019, 02:21 PM
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The real question for consumers is whether they would choose the dual layer LCD over the OLED for the same price? Hisense has stated that it plans to price it head to head against OLED pricing (assume C9 pricing equivalent).
People choose LCDs that are priced the same or more than OLEDs right now, and they aren't even Dual Cell... sometimes they're edgelit...

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post #219 of 259 Old 09-12-2019, 11:21 PM
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When comparing pricing, you need to compare apples-to-apples. Don't compare launch pricing of a new LCD model against discounted pricing of an OLED model that has been on sale for several months. As an example, the LG 65" C9 launched at $3500 and the LG E9 at $4300. This Hisense launched at ~$2600 in China. It's entirely possible that if these reach the USA, they will be even cheaper due to the massive over-supply and excess capacity of panels in China. LG has new China fab coming online so their OLED pricing will also decrease. Competition is a good thing no matter if you're an OLED or LCD fan.
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post #220 of 259 Old 09-13-2019, 07:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
When comparing pricing, you need to compare apples-to-apples. Don't compare launch pricing of a new LCD model against discounted pricing of an OLED model that has been on sale for several months. As an example, the LG 65" C9 launched at $3500 and the LG E9 at $4300. This Hisense launched at ~$2600 in China. It's entirely possible that if these reach the USA, they will be even cheaper due to the massive over-supply and excess capacity of panels in China. LG has new China fab coming online so their OLED pricing will also decrease. Competition is a good thing no matter if you're an OLED or LCD fan.
That guy in the clip claimed that they only made a few thousands and that it was a very early product. Might even kept the price artificially low.
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post #221 of 259 Old 09-13-2019, 07:34 AM
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I love how visibly uncomfortable he becomes, at the prospect of speaking about Laser TV

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post #222 of 259 Old 09-13-2019, 07:40 AM
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I love how visibly uncomfortable he becomes, at the prospect of speaking about Laser TV
ROFL, ya it looked like he either didn't want too or wasn't allowed to speak about it. I was having a hard time telling from his words/body language.
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post #223 of 259 Old 09-13-2019, 11:14 AM
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That guy in the clip claimed that they only made a few thousands and that it was a very early product. Might even kept the price artificially low.
We shall see. Typically a product made in limited quantities is more expensive. Unclear if they limited them because they are too complicated to build or because they are testing the market. If they do ramp up production, economies of scale should eventually lower pricing.

Sucks they don't sell these in USA. I will probably have to wait until CES to check one out. Hopefully they have them setup in a darkened room like some of the OLED demos.
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post #224 of 259 Old 09-13-2019, 12:06 PM
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Frankly, a "4K" front panel with a 1280x720 rear panel would be enough.
Speak for yourself

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post #225 of 259 Old 09-13-2019, 12:06 PM
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We shall see. Typically a product made in limited quantities is more expensive. Unclear if they limited them because they are too complicated to build or because they are testing the market. If they do ramp up production, economies of scale should eventually lower pricing.

Sucks they don't sell these in USA. I will probably have to wait until CES to check one out. Hopefully they have them setup in a darkened room like some of the OLED demos.
You probably know this already, but in case you didn't, the 2020 models are coming to the US.

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post #226 of 259 Old 09-13-2019, 01:44 PM
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post #227 of 259 Old 09-13-2019, 01:55 PM
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It seems like they are speaking about the 8K which I have heard very bad things about. The initial reports were the 8k was not ready for prime time!
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This is kind of what I feared. I just found it difficult to believe that Hisense had suddenly found the "secret sauce" to make Dual panel LCD work well in a cost effective manner. I'm pretty sure the big boys with a better track record of innovative technology just couldn't get around the challenges (whether it be heat, even more narrow viewing angles than standard VA panels, processing, cost... etc. etc. ) I'm glad they're trying. But whatever Hisense's reputation in China, I've found them to consistently disappoint US consumers with tons of vaporware and subpar products (only their very recent model being a possible exception). For all of its limitations, I think Mini-LED is probably the bridge technology to Micro LED--which looks to be VERY far off, despite initial enthusiasm a couple of years ago that products might be consumer ready by 2021/22. That seems very unlikely at this point.


Unfortunately, other than TCL, are any other manufacturers going the mini-LED route? Seems to be OLED will dominate premium sector for the forseeable future. As great as OLED is, the limitations and, in particular, burn-in risks make it too risky for me. I burned my plasma because of how much NFL Network and ESPN I watched (damn scrolling tickers at the bottom absolutely FRIED that panel). And just won't risk OLED burn-in at current prices. Maybe eventually prices will be low enough I won't feel awful about burn-in. But at $4-$5k for the 77", too much to risk it.
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post #229 of 259 Old 09-13-2019, 02:07 PM
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It seems like they are speaking about the 8K which I have heard very bad things about. The initial reports were the 8k was not ready for prime time!
It's about both, but the worse of the two criticisms is towards the 8K, yes.

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post #230 of 259 Old 09-13-2019, 02:20 PM
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This is kind of what I feared. I just found it difficult to believe that Hisense had suddenly found the "secret sauce" to make Dual panel LCD work well in a cost effective manner. I'm pretty sure the big boys with a better track record of innovative technology just couldn't get around the challenges (whether it be heat, even more narrow viewing angles than standard VA panels, processing, cost... etc. etc. ) I'm glad they're trying. But whatever Hisense's reputation in China, I've found them to consistently disappoint US consumers with tons of vaporware and subpar products (only their very recent model being a possible exception). For all of its limitations, I think Mini-LED is probably the bridge technology to Micro LED--which looks to be VERY far off, despite initial enthusiasm a couple of years ago that products might be consumer ready by 2021/22. That seems very unlikely at this point.


Unfortunately, other than TCL, are any other manufacturers going the mini-LED route? Seems to be OLED will dominate premium sector for the forseeable future. As great as OLED is, the limitations and, in particular, burn-in risks make it too risky for me. I burned my plasma because of how much NFL Network and ESPN I watched (damn scrolling tickers at the bottom absolutely FRIED that panel). And just won't risk OLED burn-in at current prices. Maybe eventually prices will be low enough I won't feel awful about burn-in. But at $4-$5k for the 77", too much to risk it.
Not even sure why they would even use VA panels. If you have a 4K backlight layer and a 4K color layer, you have pixel level light control, so does it really matter if a VA panel has more native contrast? Wouldn't you get better viewing angles as a result of using an IPS panel, and the same 1mil:1 contrast? Or maybe use a VA as the backplane and IPS as the front color plane? I'm not an engineer obviously, but just curious why you'd use a VA panel, when they already have poor viewing angles, and you know stacking panels confounds that further?

I think Mini LED is a very promising tech. Just not that excited about the 1st iteration that only has ~900 zones. Down to a limitation in TCL's algos, so it would be awesome to see one of the big boys tackle this. I know that the Z9D didn't have 25k LEDs, but they did figure out a way to control each LED as its own zone, so perhaps they'd have an easier time scaling up what they've already done, than TCL has had with starting from scratch?

In any event, TCL says that they will eventually get to the 25k zone level, but that's a few years away, if ever.

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We were going up and down with peoples viewing angels impressions now we go up and down with peoples picture quality impressions...Those avforums guys are no idiots either, saw the same TV as flatpanelshd, and they were impressed ''for an LCD TV the picture was incredible'' with the U9E at IFA.
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post #232 of 259 Old 09-13-2019, 03:03 PM
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We were going up and down with peoples viewing angels impressions now we go up and down with peoples picture quality impressions...Those avforums guys are no idiots either, saw the same TV as flatpanelshd, and they were impressed ''for an LCD TV the picture was incredible'' with the U9E at IFA.
That's almost backhanded praise lol. But yeah, we'll see what happens when the actual reviews come out and these are really tested. Hopefully by reputable sources.

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I wouldn't call it quits just yet! The fact that Sony and Panasonic both produced impeccable displays is proof positive that this is amazing. Even if Hisense is not the one to do it the technology is already proven as very viable.



Now the big question mark is.... Will the major brands do it if Hisense cant?
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post #234 of 259 Old 09-13-2019, 03:35 PM
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I wonder they are having yield issues during the screen bonding process driving up costs beyond what they think that they can sell in the 4k realm... So, they are trying to get 8k working to try to justify a higher price. There is a lot more pricing room at 8k than 4k where the price is really dropping fast.
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post #235 of 259 Old 09-13-2019, 04:19 PM
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I wonder they are having yield issues during the screen bonding process driving up costs beyond what they think that they can sell in the 4k realm... So, they are trying to get 8k working to try to justify a higher price. There is a lot more pricing room at 8k than 4k where the price is really dropping fast.
If they get a good product it would be worth the premium if marketed correctly. Even as a more niche premium model.

I can reasonably expect Sony to sell a limited run of them for 6k a set until the bugs are ironed out. That’s out of my budget but I would actually stretch my budget to get this tech over oled.
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post #236 of 259 Old 09-13-2019, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey Suchocki View Post
This is kind of what I feared. I just found it difficult to believe that Hisense had suddenly found the "secret sauce" to make Dual panel LCD work well in a cost effective manner. I'm pretty sure the big boys with a better track record of innovative technology just couldn't get around the challenges (whether it be heat, even more narrow viewing angles than standard VA panels, processing, cost... etc. etc. ) I'm glad they're trying. But whatever Hisense's reputation in China, I've found them to consistently disappoint US consumers with tons of vaporware and subpar products (only their very recent model being a possible exception). For all of its limitations, I think Mini-LED is probably the bridge technology to Micro LED--which looks to be VERY far off, despite initial enthusiasm a couple of years ago that products might be consumer ready by 2021/22. That seems very unlikely at this point.


Unfortunately, other than TCL, are any other manufacturers going the mini-LED route? Seems to be OLED will dominate premium sector for the forseeable future. As great as OLED is, the limitations and, in particular, burn-in risks make it too risky for me. I burned my plasma because of how much NFL Network and ESPN I watched (damn scrolling tickers at the bottom absolutely FRIED that panel). And just won't risk OLED burn-in at current prices. Maybe eventually prices will be low enough I won't feel awful about burn-in. But at $4-$5k for the 77", too much to risk it.
I absolutely hate that the put all that crap on our big screens. I've got a Panny Plasma that has burn in from Fox Sports.
We as consumers need to somehow get the message to these Networks we do NOT need all that crap constantly running on the screen.
With all the ways to get information I certainly don't need it screwing up my $3000 screen. I think I'm smart enough to know what channel I'm watching without their static image channel logo fried in
the corner of my screen. It might piss me off more than anyone I know. Their should be a setting in the TV's to turn that off.
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post #237 of 259 Old 09-14-2019, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Suchocki View Post
This is kind of what I feared. I just found it difficult to believe that Hisense had suddenly found the "secret sauce" to make Dual panel LCD work well in a cost effective manner. I'm pretty sure the big boys with a better track record of innovative technology just couldn't get around the challenges (whether it be heat, even more narrow viewing angles than standard VA panels, processing, cost... etc. etc. ) I'm glad they're trying. But whatever Hisense's reputation in China, I've found them to consistently disappoint US consumers with tons of vaporware and subpar products (only their very recent model being a possible exception). For all of its limitations, I think Mini-LED is probably the bridge technology to Micro LED--which looks to be VERY far off, despite initial enthusiasm a couple of years ago that products might be consumer ready by 2021/22. That seems very unlikely at this point.


Unfortunately, other than TCL, are any other manufacturers going the mini-LED route? Seems to be OLED will dominate premium sector for the forseeable future. As great as OLED is, the limitations and, in particular, burn-in risks make it too risky for me. I burned my plasma because of how much NFL Network and ESPN I watched (damn scrolling tickers at the bottom absolutely FRIED that panel). And just won't risk OLED burn-in at current prices. Maybe eventually prices will be low enough I won't feel awful about burn-in. But at $4-$5k for the 77", too much to risk it.
I absolutely hate that the put all that crap on our big screens. I've got a Panny Plasma that has burn in from Fox Sports.
We as consumers need to somehow get the message to these Networks we do NOT need all that crap constantly running on the screen.
With all the ways to get information I certainly don't need it screwing up my $3000 screen. I think I'm smart enough to know what channel I'm watching without their static image channel logo fried in
the corner of my screen. It might piss me off more than anyone I know. Their should be a setting in the TV's to turn that off.
To be fair you can’t blame a television network for inferior television technology. Even if they complied the problem would only be marginally solved.

We just have to hope better technologies prevail. If dual layer fails we will be waiting a very long time for micro led.
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post #238 of 259 Old 09-14-2019, 08:29 AM
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To be fair you can’t blame a television network for inferior television technology. Even if they complied the problem would only be marginally solved.

We just have to hope better technologies prevail. If dual layer fails we will be waiting a very long time for micro led.
I won't turn thread into this discussion but I will add I do blame the networks. I also agree with you that TV makers should find a way to keep this from happening.
Maybe the mini led will be what we want.
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post #239 of 259 Old 09-18-2019, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Suchocki View Post
This is kind of what I feared. I just found it difficult to believe that Hisense had suddenly found the "secret sauce" to make Dual panel LCD work well in a cost effective manner. I'm pretty sure the big boys with a better track record of innovative technology just couldn't get around the challenges (whether it be heat, even more narrow viewing angles than standard VA panels, processing, cost... etc. etc. ) I'm glad they're trying. But whatever Hisense's reputation in China, I've found them to consistently disappoint US consumers with tons of vaporware and subpar products (only their very recent model being a possible exception). For all of its limitations, I think Mini-LED is probably the bridge technology to Micro LED--which looks to be VERY far off, despite initial enthusiasm a couple of years ago that products might be consumer ready by 2021/22. That seems very unlikely at this point.


Unfortunately, other than TCL, are any other manufacturers going the mini-LED route? Seems to be OLED will dominate premium sector for the forseeable future. As great as OLED is, the limitations and, in particular, burn-in risks make it too risky for me. I burned my plasma because of how much NFL Network and ESPN I watched (damn scrolling tickers at the bottom absolutely FRIED that panel). And just won't risk OLED burn-in at current prices. Maybe eventually prices will be low enough I won't feel awful about burn-in. But at $4-$5k for the 77", too much to risk it.

I think you may have overlooked something?! The "scathing" was for the 8k dual layer prototype they had on display... it's the one that had quirks which isn't shocking since it's a prototype. There are reviews of the U9E that was sold in China... it's a good TV. No major issues minus lag. Excellent side viewing angles.

It's BOE making most of the strides with the dual panel tech not Hisense.

I feel your skepticism for Hisense as a whole; but the U9E exists (in small numbers) and it works well. Also unless you really dig in all of the manufacturers are using different methods/techniques in the dual panels... So it is possible Hisense does have something that is marketable. Find out next year...

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I think you may have overlooked something?! The "scathing" was for the 8k dual layer prototype they had on display... it's the one that had quirks which isn't shocking since it's a prototype. There are reviews of the U9E that was sold in China... it's a good TV. No major issues minus lag. Excellent side viewing angles.

It's BOE making most of the strides with the dual panel tech not Hisense.

I feel your skepticism for Hisense as a whole; but the U9E exists (in small numbers) and it works well. Also unless you really dig in all of the manufacturers are using different methods/techniques in the dual panels... So it is possible Hisense does have something that is marketable. Find out next year...
Link was about both the 4K and 8K version impressions. 8K was worse, though.

"Then there is Hisense's dual-layer LCD technology. While we were fairly impressed with the prototype that we saw at CES 2019 (same prototype was on display at IFA), the actual consumer product (U9E "ULED XD") is less impressive. Something appears to have changed on the path from prototype to product."

That's the 4K model they are talking about, because the 8K versions aren't products yet. They don't come out till next year.

We've seen other first looks that were favorable, too. Just posted this as another take.


Last edited by Stuntman_Mike; 09-18-2019 at 01:50 PM.
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