2019 Vizio P-Series Quantum X - Owner's Thread - No Price Talk - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 2217 Old 06-07-2019, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by kensingtonwick View Post
I guess we’re likely to see black letterbox bars then.


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They will likely look better than the 2018 PQ, but the amount improved may vary depending on the size of the black bars.
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post #92 of 2217 Old 06-07-2019, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by MashCT View Post
.....
Our Planet, though - WOW is it a stunner on this TV!
Greetings MashCT, thanks for sharing your thoughts on the PQX.

1. Would you happen to have the PEII UHD for testing? Like to know how the scenes with lions in the desert look.
2. Would you also be kind enough to test HLG support? 4K/HLG content is now available on some youtube channels such as Japan Geographic. I can also post some test samples if you have the ub820 or the x800m2. player.

Many thanks and best regards,
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post #93 of 2217 Old 06-07-2019, 10:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by KenUHD View Post
OP, thanks for starting the thread - I am looking for a new TV to replace a 2015 Vizio P70 and your observations are helpful.
Color banding can be 'built in' to the video source that is difficult to remove with TV processing. And as you observe, the banding can be none, or quite evident.



If you have the opportunity with another TV, perhaps a comparison with the same source setup would be of great value to me and others here. There are VERY FEW PX75's out in the wild and they are unavailable for sale from all the usual suspects, including Vizio. Sometimes I think they might be counted using your fingers so far.


Again, thanks for your comments, and sorting out banding caused by the source or TV scaling issues is helpful to all future purchasers.
Well... I returned the PQX. Oblivion & Arrival pretty much sealed it for me - I just couldn't tolerate the gradients & that only directly in front results in the best pic quality (no blooming visible). The issue with the scene changing & the dimming/brightening lagging behind also being another problem. Lastly the DSE.

I wound up getting a 65" Sony A9F. I have already re-watched Oblivion & I will post pics. ZERO gradient banding - not only that, there were sun camera lens flares visible in the same scenes I posted pics of here that were not visible on the Vizio, but clear as day on the Sony. I'll post pics so y'all can see. As I watch the other movies I reference throughout the thread, I'll post them as well.

I would say if you hit the panel lottery, you're in for a treat. I want to be clear - I am not knocking Vizio or the PQX. I mentioned in a previous thread that my friends either said they did not see the issues I was pointing out, or that they weren't bothered by it. All TV's have shortcomings. I can definitely say if my PQX did not have the issues it did, I would have gladly kept it. It is an awesome TV - there is no reason to be on the fence here, folks. Get it & trade it if you don't hit the panel lottery. Me - I just didn't feel like dealing with it.

My A9F? SCORED on the panel lottery - screen uniformity is perfect!

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post #94 of 2217 Old 06-07-2019, 10:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by g0ndor View Post
Thanks for all the updates and pics!

Would you mind listing your source/"processing chain" when u post pics. Ex: "4k from the built in Netflix app", "Netflix hd, upscaled by appletv 4k", "uhd bluray, xyz bluray player" etc...

In essence, just like @KenUHD suggested, it is possible the source material could be contributing to the banding...
I think sometimes, the source material does. But it's also the TV. My Pioneer Kuro NEVER showed gradient banding anything like my particular PQX. And watching Oblivion on the A9F - no banding.

I was watching HDR Blu-Rays from the Oppo UDP 205, which was connected directly to the TV. I do not think the version of Avatar I have is HDR/4K - just typical BluRay. It looked fantastic & I never saw any gradient banding. Some of the HDR BluRays I have are Dolby Vision, but would only display in HDR10. No matter the TV or Oppo setting, the DV icon never showed. TV & Oppo are up to date.

If I watch Netflix through my cable box, it will not show Dolby Vision - only HDR10. My cable box is connected through my Marantz AV7705.

If I watched Netflix through the internal app on the Vizio, it would play back in Dolby Vision when available. The picture the Vizio rendered was stunning. Our Planet - just blew me away!

I had just started having my AV7705 upscale cable content. The PQX displayed a great picture. I can't tell you if I saw a difference because the content I've been watching via cable has been different - I couldn't compare apples to apples (same shows).

I never saw a single motion issue with the Vizio. I do not like SOE at all so I turned off all motion processing. I am certain Vizio has upped its processing game & would not be surprised if testing/reviews bear this out.

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post #95 of 2217 Old 06-07-2019, 10:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kensingtonwick View Post
I guess we’re likely to see black letterbox bars then.


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There is 100% ZERO blooming in the black bars. The bars are BLACK - inky, deep black. Even when bright objects are immediately below/above the bars, there is just no blooming.

If you sit DIRECTLY in front. Many of the pics I've posted - especially Gravity & Interstellar - have bars with bright content nearby & the bars & sky are black. I took those pics in a dark room.

When you are in a dark room the TV & black bars disappear. There were scenes in one movie - can't remember which one - where the image was a blank dark gray screen (lights off, but some small, very faint shadow detail in the scene) - the black bars were blacker than the actual scene. I would estimate the image on the screen was 5/10% gray... no expert here, but it was a dark scene.

I did not expect the black performance this TV displayed. I took videos of Interstellar, in particular the docking/rotation scene. That scene has so many light/dark changes, very rapid & where you see Gargantua fly from right to left across the background - rendered flawlessly on the Vizio.

I would post the video but I am worried about copyright issues.

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post #96 of 2217 Old 06-07-2019, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by tomvinelli View Post
Here's what I'm waiting for. A 12 bit panel so I see Dolby Vision. Are people even aware DV is 12 bit technology. So how do people figure they are seeing DV on a 10 bit panel. The short answer ,your not its a marketing gimmick at this point. And all the favorite websites you go to ,to get honest information push this Dolby vision narrative how wonderful it is and you should buy that tv and 4k blu-ray player that has it. Honest reviewers should call it out if it's a gimmick or not and why.

But were not getting that ,these days. Were just taking what they say as it must be true. Marketing is what get us to buy things , anything. Samsung has Qled, Sony has TRILUMINOS. Guess what they are the same thing! Just 3 years ago Samsung called Qled Suhd tvs,but nobody knew what that mean't, so marketing steps in and calls it Qled.In fact any manufacturer that uses quantum dots has Qled. The processing is better now ,and the usual picture options in each set, but my point is marketing comes up with buzz words for a TV like Qled, triluminos ,UltraBright 400,Wide Color Gamut with NBP Photon technology,HDR Pro Gamma etc. Back to HDR , give me a 12 bit panel which i've heard nothing about happening anytime soon. Until then how am I or anybody seeing Dolby Vision and I have seen some horrible HDR 10 .There is no standard and nobody talking about making standards, but hey let go with 8K. How about giving us the best 4K we can get then move on to 8K.
Do you know what 12 bit means?

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post #97 of 2217 Old 06-07-2019, 10:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by qoopy View Post
Greetings MashCT, thanks for sharing your thoughts on the PQX.

1. Would you happen to have the PEII UHD for testing? Like to know how the scenes with lions in the desert look.
2. Would you also be kind enough to test HLG support? 4K/HLG content is now available on some youtube channels such as Japan Geographic. I can also post some test samples if you have the ub820 or the x800m2. player.

Many thanks and best regards,
Howdy! I've returned the TV & can't do any more tests. I never got to watch any HLG content & I don't have PEII (yet). My player is the Oppo UDP 205.

I watched Our Planet, Dolby Vision & I promise you, the images the Vizio rendered were 99% flawless. The only exception... there are scenes with whales in a deep deep dark green-blue sea, with white froth/sea foam. I could very, very faintly see the FALD at work in the ocean as the TV was upping the brightness (specular highlights) of the seafoam. Because that ocean is in motion as the whales play in the water, it made the FALD (set to medium) evident. You see this shimmer/waves of backlight in the dark sea around the foam. Sometimes, you'd see "zone crawl" behind a light colored object moving across the screen against a darker background.

There are TONS of incredible birds in that show. Doing their things to attract mates. The colors in the feathers, the iridescence... vibrant colors against black feathers. Absolutely amazing. I am just stunned at what TVs & content today are capable of.

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post #98 of 2217 Old 06-07-2019, 10:51 PM
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@MashCT try lowering contrast 1 to 3 points, to reduce or remove banding for HDR and SDR.


Then increase color by one or three. Vizio sets clip white at stock contrast setting, which also affects color as well. Your also setting up your display to properly tone map for 4000 nit content.

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post #99 of 2217 Old 06-08-2019, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by tomvinelli View Post
Here's what I'm waiting for. A 12 bit panel so I see Dolby Vision. Are people even aware DV is 12 bit technology. So how do people figure they are seeing DV on a 10 bit panel. The short answer ,your not its a marketing gimmick at this point. And all the favorite websites you go to ,to get honest information push this Dolby vision narrative how wonderful it is and you should buy that tv and 4k blu-ray player that has it. Honest reviewers should call it out if it's a gimmick or not and why.

But were not getting that ,these days. Were just taking what they say as it must be true. Marketing is what get us to buy things , anything. Samsung has Qled, Sony has TRILUMINOS. Guess what they are the same thing! Just 3 years ago Samsung called Qled Suhd tvs,but nobody knew what that mean't, so marketing steps in and calls it Qled.In fact any manufacturer that uses quantum dots has Qled. The processing is better now ,and the usual picture options in each set, but my point is marketing comes up with buzz words for a TV like Qled, triluminos ,UltraBright 400,Wide Color Gamut with NBP Photon technology,HDR Pro Gamma etc. Back to HDR , give me a 12 bit panel which i've heard nothing about happening anytime soon. Until then how am I or anybody seeing Dolby Vision and I have seen some horrible HDR 10 .There is no standard and nobody talking about making standards, but hey let go with 8K. How about giving us the best 4K we can get then move on to 8K.
First off you are misinformed on the differences between HDR10 and DV. Yes DV is encoded at 12bits, however just because panels are 10bits or lower doesn't mean there is no visual benefit between HDR10 and DV. DV offers dynamic metadata and can effect the look of each frame. HDR10 has static metadata.

HDR10 aims to produce 1000nits peak brightness while capping out at 4000nits.

DV aims to produce 4000nits peak brightness while capping out at 10000nits.

Depending on what the content being mastered is targeting this can have a significant visual impact.

It isn't a gimmick. Standards have to be created before the hardware that fully supports them do.

The most important thing to understand is there really is no reason for 12bit panels to exist right now. This year we are seeing panels with peak Luminance of 3000nits. With diminishing returns there is no significant benefit to be had with a 12bit panel at such a low peak brightness. At least until panel tech can reach over 4000nits.

HDR formats have nothing to do with resolution...

The takeaway here is don't be spreading ignorant misinformation by telling people there is no current visual benefit to watching DV over HDR10 when that is simply untrue.
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post #100 of 2217 Old 06-08-2019, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
First off you are misinformed on the differences between HDR10 and DV. Yes DV is encoded at 12bits, however just because panels are 10bits or lower doesn't mean there is no visual benefit between HDR10 and DV. DV offers dynamic metadata and can effect the look of each frame. HDR10 has static metadata.

HDR10 aims to produce 1000nits peak brightness while capping out at 4000nits.

DV aims to produce 4000nits peak brightness while capping out at 10000nits.

Depending on what the content being mastered is targeting this can have a significant visual impact.

It isn't a gimmick. Standards have to be created before the hardware that fully supports them do.

The most important thing to understand is there really is no reason for 12bit panels to exist right now. This year we are seeing panels with peak Luminance of 3000nits. With diminishing returns there is no significant benefit to be had with a 12bit panel at such a low peak brightness. At least until panel tech can reach over 4000nits.

HDR formats have nothing to do with resolution...

The takeaway here is don't be spreading ignorant misinformation by telling people there is no current visual benefit to watching DV over HDR10 when that is simply untrue.
Yeah, a good 10 bit panel with 12 bit to 15 bit processing can work really well. I think, once you move in to that 4000 nit territory of peak brightness, you want to move in to higher bit processing. I'm worried Vizio stuck with 12bit processing and its biting them in the ass.

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post #101 of 2217 Old 06-09-2019, 02:23 AM
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.....
The only exception... there are scenes with whales in a deep deep dark green-blue sea, with white froth/sea foam. I could very, very faintly see the FALD at work in the ocean as the TV was upping the brightness (specular highlights) of the seafoam. Because that ocean is in motion as the whales play in the water, it made the FALD (set to medium) evident. You see this shimmer/waves of backlight in the dark sea around the foam. Sometimes, you'd see "zone crawl" behind a light colored object moving across the screen against a darker background.
.....
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.....
I just couldn't tolerate the gradients & that only directly in front results in the best pic quality (no blooming visible). The issue with the scene changing & the dimming/brightening lagging behind also being another problem. Lastly the DSE
......
Do you mean something like this?
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post #102 of 2217 Old 06-09-2019, 07:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Do you mean something like this?
YES! That is it! Drove me bat-poo crazy. No matter the setting, I could not make that effect stop, nor diminish its visibility. Dimming the backlight, only seemed to make it even more noticeable.

Onto the A9F... one thing I notice right away is how much "less-bright" this set is. When the sun is filling up the room, watching dark content is definitely tougher to make out details. I say "less-bright" as opposed to "dimmer" because I think "dimmer" puts a stronger emphasis/suggestion that the TV is too dim.

It's still quite capable of lighting up the room (where a plasma does not, to the same extent) but there is a noticeable difference.

A9F vs PQX on something like "Our Planet, though? Where the A9F wins is there is no "I can see the FALD-at-work" (because there is none) like I would see on the PQX. But really - that is it. The PQX wins due to the sheer brightness of the image because otherwise, it easily matches the OLED. Overall, the quality of the images is the same & major kudos to Vizio/the PQX here. Side by side, I would bet everyone would say the PQX has the better, more robust/punchy/dynamic image & pick it.

If Vizio stays on this track & can improve the PQX even further, I could very well see me getting it when I am ready to upgrade to 75".

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post #103 of 2217 Old 06-09-2019, 09:22 AM
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That does look very annoying. I wonder if that’s something that can but fixed via new firmware updates or if its just asking to much to go from such a high nit rating to so low instantly
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post #104 of 2217 Old 06-09-2019, 09:47 AM
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That does look very annoying. I wonder if that’s something that can but fixed via new firmware updates or if its just asking to much to go from such a high nit rating to so low instantly
It can and will be fixed, as long as Vizio is made aware of it, it will be fixed.

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post #105 of 2217 Old 06-09-2019, 09:57 AM
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Do you mean something like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MLY2DAXb0A
I just tested this scene and do not see any delay of the backlight on my unit. Either there is a glitch in your units or they are defective. I recommend if you haven't already to perform a factory reset on the TV. If that doesn't work then contact Vizio and use this video as evidence to file a replacement claim.

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post #106 of 2217 Old 06-09-2019, 10:22 AM
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It can and will be fixed, as long as Vizio is made aware of it, it will be fixed.

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try turning off black detail and see if that works. Or turning it to low possibly?


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post #107 of 2217 Old 06-09-2019, 10:25 AM
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try turning off black detail and see if that works. Or turning it to low possibly?


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Black detail should be left off as it has a very negative impact on the EOTF. I'm very sure he already knows this.
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post #108 of 2217 Old 06-10-2019, 08:07 AM
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Black detail should be left off as it has a very negative impact on the EOTF. I'm very sure he already knows this.


So black detail should always be turned off for HDR content? Only to be used in SDR?


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post #109 of 2217 Old 06-10-2019, 08:29 AM
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So black detail should always be turned off for HDR content? Only to be used in SDR?


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I don't use it in either one, its never been turned on.

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post #110 of 2217 Old 06-10-2019, 08:38 AM
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So black detail should always be turned off for HDR content? Only to be used in SDR?


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It should be left off for HDR and SDR formats. I did some readings with it on and it throws calibration out the window. There is no way to fix what it does to the image other than turning it off.
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Is anyone concerned about the lack of HDMI 2.1? I haven't read any complaints.
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post #112 of 2217 Old 06-10-2019, 04:37 PM
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It should be left off for HDR and SDR formats. I did some readings with it on and it throws calibration out the window. There is no way to fix what it does to the image other than turning it off.


Yeah it really seems to screw up the image.


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post #113 of 2217 Old 06-11-2019, 08:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Black detail should be left off as it has a very negative impact on the EOTF. I'm very sure he already knows this.
Yep - I do not use any of the image processing stuff. I am sort of a purist in that regard... everything I've ever read about those kinds of settings, all of the way back when I really got into to this hobby (obsession) was to always keep that stuff off.

The only time I will ever give them a whirl is if the content looks off in any way on my custom settings (which are done with the Spears & Munsil disc). I'll give em a shot & if they improve the image, I will use the processing (incl noise reduction) just for that content.

When I saw the gradient banding & the backlight "lag" - I tried multiple settings. None of them fixed it. "Medium" FALD setting helped minimize the visibility of the "lag", but it was still there. I reduced brightness, contrast, color - then increased it all. Doing various combinations & going back & forth... then it suddenly dawns on you - this is nuts. I shouldn't have to do this.

I wound up sending the TV back & got a Sony A9F. Right away, what do you think I noticed?

If you were to say 3-D like pop, colors & bright images coupled- yep, you got it.

I think what Vizio has done is set a bar - and taken LCD/LED technology to a whole new level. What that set does right, it seriously does right. And no one, not Samsung, not Sony - did it before Vizio.

I think they're going to force other manufacturers to step up or they will start to lose market share, for sure. And that kind of progress may mean in the next 1-2 years, LCD/LED will blow the doors off OLED. The Quantum X is just too close on the blacks & crushes the brightness & colors OLED can produce.

I see myself selling the AF9 & getting whatever comes next for LCD/LED. 4000 nits on the horizon? LOL

Vizio is going to break out with the Quantum X & I bet Rtings' review is going to sing its praises & without any caveats for price or Vizio's "budget" reputation. It came close enough to sell me - and I have always been anti-LCD - but I was not willing to wait for the fixes as my return window started to close.

The A9F gets me to 4K, HDR & DV - and 65" & I can deal with the brightness & "pop" compromises I have to make because the Sony really renders a stellar, clean picture.

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post #114 of 2217 Old 06-13-2019, 07:27 PM
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I think sometimes, the source material does. But it's also the TV. My Pioneer Kuro NEVER showed gradient banding anything like my particular PQX. And watching Oblivion on the A9F - no banding.

I was watching HDR Blu-Rays from the Oppo UDP 205, which was connected directly to the TV. I do not think the version of Avatar I have is HDR/4K - just typical BluRay. It looked fantastic & I never saw any gradient banding. Some of the HDR BluRays I have are Dolby Vision, but would only display in HDR10. No matter the TV or Oppo setting, the DV icon never showed. TV & Oppo are up to date.

If I watch Netflix through my cable box, it will not show Dolby Vision - only HDR10. My cable box is connected through my Marantz AV7705.

If I watched Netflix through the internal app on the Vizio, it would play back in Dolby Vision when available. The picture the Vizio rendered was stunning. Our Planet - just blew me away!

I had just started having my AV7705 upscale cable content. The PQX displayed a great picture. I can't tell you if I saw a difference because the content I've been watching via cable has been different - I couldn't compare apples to apples (same shows).

I never saw a single motion issue with the Vizio. I do not like SOE at all so I turned off all motion processing. I am certain Vizio has upped its processing game & would not be surprised if testing/reviews bear this out.
I know you returned the TV, but something just clicked for me.

It sounds like you did most if not all of your viewing via external devices, and not the TV's internal apps, Right?

Over on the 2019 regular P series thread I was just reminded that the Vizio has a switch to properly enable full bandwidth support on their HDMI ports. The PQX has the same setting. It's called Full UHD Color mode. Without that enabled, it makes that sense that you could see the nasty banding like you saw from external devices when feeding it 4k HDR material. I wonder if that would explain the rather unusual amounts of banding you saw.

Similarly, your Marantz also has a setting, called 4K Signal Format which needs to be set to Enhanced. Since you're not having issues with the Sony you replaced the PQX with, I'm assuming you've got the receiver set correctly.

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post #115 of 2217 Old 06-14-2019, 09:33 PM
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A little more demo footy of the 65PQX for everyone.


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post #116 of 2217 Old 06-16-2019, 12:43 PM
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Nice article here https://hdgear.highdefdigest.com/731...barlineup.html

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post #117 of 2217 Old 06-16-2019, 12:49 PM
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Some of the issues described by OP sound eerily familiar about the 2016 P-Series when that first came out. They fixed some of the issues over time (backlight unable to keep up with big contrast changes being one of them), but I guess with each new set, they need to start over?

I really wanted to hear good things about this set. I don't want OLED due to burn-in issues, and this was my next option.
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post #118 of 2217 Old 06-16-2019, 01:06 PM
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Some of the issues described by OP sound eerily familiar about the 2016 P-Series when that first came out. They fixed some of the issues over time (backlight unable to keep up being one of them), but I guess with each new set, they need to start over?



I really wanted to hear good things about this set. I don't want OLED due to burn-in issues, and this was my next option.
I've come to except or expect there to be some kinks, because compared to Samsung, Sony, and LG, they are a much smaller company. So firmware updates are expected until you get optimal performance, although whats described looks pretty annoying.

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post #119 of 2217 Old 06-16-2019, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by MashCT View Post

The A9F gets me to 4K, HDR & DV - and 65" & I can deal with the brightness & "pop" compromises I have to make because the Sony really renders a stellar, clean picture.
I assume you mean the Vizio Quantum X has more pop than the A9F - just want to confirm please.
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post #120 of 2217 Old 06-16-2019, 01:10 PM
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I've come to except or expect there to be some kinks, because compared to Samsung, Sony, and LG, they are a much smaller company. So firmware updates are expected until you get optimal performance, although whats described looks pretty annoying.

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While smaller, I'd still expect a solid product out of the gate, or at least not shipping with repeat issues of previous years. The ability to do OTA (or even USB-based) updates shouldn't be used as a crutch\excuse.
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