TCL 8-Series, 6-Series QLED TVs - Page 39 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1141 of 1517 Old 10-18-2019, 06:35 PM
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Who is Vincent?
Who is Vincent?!?! HaHaHa!!!

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post #1142 of 1517 Old 10-18-2019, 07:07 PM
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You bring up an excellent point and one that bears reflecting: we're at the point of diminishing returns moving forward. ...
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It is a first gen Mini LED. I think the potential is there. ...
Technology advances in creeps and bounds. Actual Leaps are rare, unless you only look every 5 years. Mini LED will get better, but it's no surprise if a couple new advances don't exactly blow away their well-engineered predecessors, right off the mark.

It doesn't help that the high end of the market is well represented, or that TCL's prior generation was very, very good.

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post #1143 of 1517 Old 10-18-2019, 08:36 PM
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They just reviewed the 8 series.
Apparently it's near perfect.
https://www.tomsguide.com/reviews/tc...s-qled-roku-tv
I don't understand how there is still letterbox light bleeding with 25,000 Mini LEDs. I guess I'm hanging onto my Q9FN until the Micro LEDs arrive.
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post #1144 of 1517 Old 10-19-2019, 04:17 AM
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I don't understand how there is still letterbox light bleeding with 25,000 Mini LEDs. I guess I'm hanging onto my Q9FN until the Micro LEDs arrive.
That will give you lots of time to save up the money you will need for Micro LED .
Gerry
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post #1145 of 1517 Old 10-19-2019, 06:39 AM
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If you want a full potential mini LED screen TCL says in their own press get together it will be a couple of years. Right now you essentially get roughly double the dimming zones of the Q90R. That appears to be TCL's current strategy -- produce a set that is close to Q90R, but is brighter (hitting close to 2000 nits) and double the dimming zones.

I think it is kind of telling that the front page of this web site has https://www.avsforum.com/save-big-4k...a-2-days-left/
where Samsung street prices are closing in on the MSRP of this set now and Sony's are below it. Coincidence that the major players are discounting so much? Yes I know black Friday is approaching, but it is not here yet, they are discounting their flagships now and I suspect it is only the beginning of the reaction to this set.
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post #1146 of 1517 Old 10-19-2019, 07:47 AM
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I don't understand how there is still letterbox light bleeding with 25,000 Mini LEDs. I guess I'm hanging onto my Q9FN until the Micro LEDs arrive.

Because even though the led's are physically there, they are segmenting them into larger clusters to compromise a zone. There are different opinions on the matter but I personally feel they should have been more aggressive with the number of zones considering the hardware is already there. It's not like saying the Q90r should have been 1000 zones as that would entail adding an additional 500 led's, all the led's are physically there it's just a matter of controlling them.
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post #1147 of 1517 Old 10-19-2019, 07:59 AM
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Because even though the led's are physically there, they are segmenting them into larger clusters to compromise a zone. There are different opinions on the matter but I personally feel they should have been more aggressive with the number of zones considering the hardware is already there. It's not like saying the Q90r should have been 1000 zones as that would entail adding an additional 500 led's, all the led's are physically there it's just a matter of controlling them.
comprise.
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post #1148 of 1517 Old 10-19-2019, 08:45 AM
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Oh yeah I saw that. Tough to watch. And this guy doesn’t pay much attention to motion handling in my opinion


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post #1149 of 1517 Old 10-19-2019, 09:06 AM
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Because even though the led's are physically there, they are segmenting them into larger clusters to compromise a zone. There are different opinions on the matter but I personally feel they should have been more aggressive with the number of zones considering the hardware is already there. It's not like saying the Q90r should have been 1000 zones as that would entail adding an additional 500 led's, all the led's are physically there it's just a matter of controlling them.
And the more zones you have the more processing power you need. The TV needs to be able to adjust the zones quickly. So I would think TCL took this into account with the processing power they have on board.To many zones and it wouldnt be able to control them as fast as needed.

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post #1150 of 1517 Old 10-19-2019, 10:48 AM
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That will give you lots of time to save up the money you will need for Micro LED .

Gerry


Hah! So true.


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post #1151 of 1517 Old 10-19-2019, 03:54 PM
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I purchased a 65R625 from Best Buy. I need to go pick it up and bring it home. Can I haul it laying on it's side in my SUV?
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post #1152 of 1517 Old 10-19-2019, 04:14 PM
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I purchased a 65R625 from Best Buy. I need to go pick it up and bring it home. Can I haul it laying on it's side in my SUV?
If you mean laying it flat, I believe that is not recommended

Someone else may have a different idea. I hope someone can provide an authoritative answer before you do it

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post #1153 of 1517 Old 10-19-2019, 04:25 PM
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I purchased a 65R625 from Best Buy. I need to go pick it up and bring it home. Can I haul it laying on it's side in my SUV?
It's not recommended but most delivery companies aren't careful about this either. If you decide to do this, make sure not to put anything on top of or below the TV that would create pressure points.
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post #1154 of 1517 Old 10-19-2019, 05:14 PM
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I purchased a 65R625 from Best Buy. I need to go pick it up and bring it home. Can I haul it laying on it's side in my SUV?
I have done so many times. Never had a problem. Keep the screen side up, and be careful around speed bumps, ( if any ) and pot holes.
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post #1155 of 1517 Old 10-19-2019, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by KD8118 View Post
Because even though the led's are physically there, they are segmenting them into larger clusters to compromise a zone. There are different opinions on the matter but I personally feel they should have been more aggressive with the number of zones considering the hardware is already there. It's not like saying the Q90r should have been 1000 zones as that would entail adding an additional 500 led's, all the led's are physically there it's just a matter of controlling them.
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I think I was trying to say compose!! This was many hours ago and my memory span is 5 minutes if I’m lucky.
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post #1156 of 1517 Old 10-19-2019, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by KD8118 View Post
Because even though the led's are physically there, they are segmenting them into larger clusters to compromise a zone. There are different opinions on the matter but I personally feel they should have been more aggressive with the number of zones considering the hardware is already there. It's not like saying the Q90r should have been 1000 zones as that would entail adding an additional 500 led's, all the led's are physically there it's just a matter of controlling them.
And the more zones you have the more processing power you need. The TV needs to be able to adjust the zones quickly. So I would think TCL took this into account with the processing power they have on board.To many zones and it wouldnt be able to control them as fast as needed.

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I’m no expert on this and there are two opinions on this. Some feel we are not there yet but I feel like how can we not have the processing power to manage double or even quadruple the amount of zones.

This would mean that in order for them to add more zones next year we would have to wait for new hardware to develop. I would be shocked if we are waiting for more powerful hardware to increase the zone count.

I do admit that I may be completely wrong. Maybe dimming algorithms just take an extraordinary amount of cpu power. If someone has a deep understanding of this feel free to correct me.
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post #1157 of 1517 Old 10-19-2019, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by KD8118 View Post
I’m no expert on this and there are two opinions on this. Some feel we are not there yet but I feel like how can we not have the processing power to manage double or even quadruple the amount of zones.

This would mean that in order for them to add more zones next year we would have nto wait for new hardware to develop. I would be shocked if we are waiting for more powerful hardware to increase the zone count.

I do admit that I may be completely wrong. Maybe dimming algorithms just take an extraordinary amount of cpu power. If someone has a deep understanding of this feel free to correct me.
My guess is that it’s largely a cost issue. 900 dimming zones nearly doubles the number of zones of any other FALD set on the current market. It’s funny how enthusiasts are like “how come it’s not more?” 🙄
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post #1158 of 1517 Old 10-19-2019, 09:40 PM
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I think people rightfully expect new products to supersede and improve upon what came before. Since we already had 858 dimming zones on the 75" Sony Z9D released in 2016, the TCL 8-series doesn't really move things forward very much after 3+ years. At least the TCL has a much cheaper launch price if we ignore the clearance deals on the Z9D before it was discontinued. But pricing playing field today isn't quite the same as in 2016, where a 77" OLED was probably $20K and can now be found under $4K online or a 75" Q90 is $3500 as linked above.

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post #1159 of 1517 Old 10-19-2019, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by KD8118 View Post
I’m no expert on this and there are two opinions on this. Some feel we are not there yet but I feel like how can we not have the processing power to manage double or even quadruple the amount of zones.

This would mean that in order for them to add more zones next year we would have to wait for new hardware to develop. I would be shocked if we are waiting for more powerful hardware to increase the zone count.

I do admit that I may be completely wrong. Maybe dimming algorithms just take an extraordinary amount of cpu power. If someone has a deep understanding of this feel free to correct me.
I'm sure there is plenty of computing operations taking place at the same time it has to figure out what each zone has to do. 40 years in electronics I suspect some functions have to be dealt with in nano-seconds if not pico-seconds

I'm amazed at what today's equipment can do, The first systems/equipment I worked on are so archaic compared to today it really leaves me with a sense of "wonder". No transistors early on but they finally came into use, followed by integrated circuits. Today some things are marvels to me that the younger one is the less wondrous it all seems, IMO!

The word "perspective" comes to mind
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post #1160 of 1517 Old 10-19-2019, 11:53 PM
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I purchased a 65R625 from Best Buy. I need to go pick it up and bring it home. Can I haul it laying on it's side in my SUV?
I brought mine home flat in the back. Same as my Vizio P702ui-B3 before it and I actually took home my Panny Plasma flat in the back.. Talk about pinching the corn hole on bumps.. (too impatient to wait for friends/family with a pick up). Although I still highly recommend doing it right if you can.

Most places probably won't be able to say you did the damage during shipment. Although Ultimate Electronics made me sign some waiver for damages since I packed the Panny in flat, against recommendations. Which was what made that ride home a bit stressful. But all 3 sets are still alive and well.
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post #1161 of 1517 Old 10-20-2019, 06:02 PM
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The relatively low zone count compared to the LED count is most likely down to the driving method than to video processing limitations. As reported earlier , the 8-series uses a cheap passive matrix LED driving method that doesn't scale well. Passive matrix also has issues with lag and cross-talk which were clearly visible in Vincent's hdtvtest review (look at the expanding circle test pattern artifacts). He spent very little time with the panel since his testing was done at a remote TCL office. I suspect as more people buy the product, we'll encounter reports of these issues showing up in real-world content and not just test patterns.
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post #1162 of 1517 Old 10-21-2019, 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted by KD8118 View Post
I’m no expert on this and there are two opinions on this. Some feel we are not there yet but I feel like how can we not have the processing power to manage double or even quadruple the amount of zones.

This would mean that in order for them to add more zones next year we would have to wait for new hardware to develop. I would be shocked if we are waiting for more powerful hardware to increase the zone count.

I do admit that I may be completely wrong. Maybe dimming algorithms just take an extraordinary amount of cpu power. If someone has a deep understanding of this feel free to correct me.
I'm also not an expert so I feel some conspiracy behind it. The companies are okay with the super slow growth of FALDs.

Since I'm not an expert, it appears to me that it's almost impossible that even the highest amount of LED FALD bulbs on mass consumer display require anywhere near the processing that the actual main TV panel itself have with 3840 x 2160 = 8,294,400 "zones", each with their own 3 subpixels, so you can even say 24 million "zones".

A kind engineer that could walk us through ELI5 on how so few bulbs require so much processing compared to actual TV panels themselves, if it really isn't just purposely gimped (gimped so much that is).
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post #1163 of 1517 Old 10-21-2019, 05:52 AM
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Oops! sorry about the 600% analogy. The math is completely wrong. It would mean that they would write us a huge check cash back for purchasing one of their tv's!!!
I'm very happy with my 2018 TCL R series 65 purchase at the moment. The only thing I would exchange it with is the 75" model.
I do not need or feel the urge to spend more money on a more expensive set. I'm really happy with the quality vs price I paid.
Now, if they were selling 65" Oleds for $799, I would probably give that a try.
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post #1164 of 1517 Old 10-21-2019, 06:33 AM
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If you want a full potential mini LED screen TCL says in their own press get together it will be a couple of years. Right now you essentially get roughly double the dimming zones of the Q90R. That appears to be TCL's current strategy -- produce a set that is close to Q90R, but is brighter (hitting close to 2000 nits) and double the dimming zones.

I think it is kind of telling that the front page of this web site has https://www.avsforum.com/save-big-4k...a-2-days-left/
where Samsung street prices are closing in on the MSRP of this set now and Sony's are below it. Coincidence that the major players are discounting so much? Yes I know black Friday is approaching, but it is not here yet, they are discounting their flagships now and I suspect it is only the beginning of the reaction to this set.
You are reading in way too much here. Sony and Samsung have this sort of price dropping at this time of year, every year. It's in no way a reaction to a set that hasn't even hit the streets yet. You could buy a 65Q9fn for $3k at this time last year. Less than the 90 is now. My correlation is the correct one and yours doesn't represent causation. Yes, Magnolia had a few day anniversary sale. 2 or 3 day sales don't represent a trend beyond normal fall discounting.
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post #1165 of 1517 Old 10-21-2019, 08:44 AM
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Here is a rebuttal to Vincent's review. I know Quantum doesn't have the best reputation here but I think he does have some valid points here. I also think Vincent is reasonable in asking for settings to satisfy both sides.
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post #1166 of 1517 Old 10-21-2019, 08:56 AM
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I think, the TCL 6 and 8 series, have really made tv buying much easier. I used to agonize over a Sony or Samsung purchase. Not anymore.
I agree. Also gives you that much headroom to upgrade a year or two earlier than if you had bought a much more expensive TV. Who knows what technologies and features will be available then.
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post #1167 of 1517 Old 10-21-2019, 09:01 AM
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I agree. Also gives you that much headroom to upgrade a year or two earlier than if you had bought a much more expensive TV. Who knows what technologies and features will be available then.


I also agree. I usually upgrade every 2-3 years and go with a Sony, Samsung, or Vizio. But thanks to TCL and Hisense, I can now afford to possibly upgrade every year or every other year if I wish.


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post #1168 of 1517 Old 10-21-2019, 09:45 AM
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Does the R625 Roku software have the Apple TV app (yet)?



(I'm also curious why the TCL support site still doesn't list the R625 model.)
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post #1169 of 1517 Old 10-21-2019, 10:47 AM
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I’m no expert on this and there are two opinions on this. Some feel we are not there yet but I feel like how can we not have the processing power to manage double or even quadruple the amount of zones.

This would mean that in order for them to add more zones next year we would have to wait for new hardware to develop. I would be shocked if we are waiting for more powerful hardware to increase the zone count.

I do admit that I may be completely wrong. Maybe dimming algorithms just take an extraordinary amount of cpu power. If someone has a deep understanding of this feel free to correct me.
It is just a form processing where dedicated hardware has not been massed produced. Essentially you have to look at all the pixels in the zone and figure out the average and peak bright pixels in each zone. A good one also knows how much light bleed over there would be from adjacent zones to put in the calculations. It probably would take a couple of passes get the basic part done - first pass based on peak brightness in each zone, second making adjustments for adjacent zone bleed, and then third and forth pass to better blend it. The third and forth passes should adjust how much the LCD opens to blend in better based on the back light (both the directly behind zone and adjacent zone bleed) to prevent banding. In other words if the zone is lets say at 50% light, the LCD has to open the pixels that are supposed to be 50% to 100% and those at 25% to 50%, etc. And if there is too much back light because of adjacent zone additional lighting have to close pixels some even if they are supposed to be 100%.

The review by Vincent shows that the algorithm is not blending in his expanding circle at about 10 minutes in. It is not just the edges of the circle that show the zones, but there is a second ring (and some of the third ring) of zones that show. A zone that is completely inside the circle and non adjacent to the black should be blended in smooth. The ones that have black in them at the edge of the circle have to make the choice of brightness or trying to reduce halos. I attached some screenshots of the TCL 8, Q90R and LG C9 reviews. The Q90R has half the number of zones, but notice how the circle smoothly darkens to the edge as the outer zones dim to keep blooming in the black down. This was the results of more processing passes (the OLED of course does not have to worry about this just ABL).

The Sony Z9G is said to have 720 zones (in reviews), not too far from this set. But, some reviews have mentioned that there are more than 720 LEDs in the back light and Sony is grouping them together in zones rather than controlling them individually. This to me seems to indicate that even Sony in a $13k set does not have the processing power (they are doing 8k) to do a lot more zones. The prior set with BMD from Sony had an estimated 630 zones (in reviews). So, Sony has had a few years and has not bumped up the zone count much. Unfortunately I was unable to find the circle test on the A9G, but I suspect it is as good at blending as the Q90R or it would have been called out in reviews.

So, it is a lot of processing to get it done right. You have to figure out how much each zone is lit, then you have to process every pixel again in the main LCD image to compensate for the back lighting condition.
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post #1170 of 1517 Old 10-21-2019, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KD8118 View Post
https://youtu.be/zZ7CUXqz_Pk


Here is a rebuttal to Vincent's review. I know Quantum doesn't have the best reputation here but I think he does have some valid points here. I also think Vincent is reasonable in asking for settings to satisfy both sides.
Nah.

https://www.cnet.com/news/what-is-ga...ould-you-care/
https://www.smpte.org/sites/default/...orkflows_0.pdf
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