TCL 8-Series, 6-Series QLED TVs - Page 50 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1471 of 1532 Old 11-14-2019, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
The clouding and backlight bleeding in that starfield demo looks terrible. This is why it's worth paying more for a Sony FALD LCD. Sony puts in the extra effort to factory calibrate the uniformity on their recent high-end sets to make sure you get even illumination from all the zones in such scenes. TCL on the other hand appears to just leave it chance so you'll be dealing with their usual panel lottery. Even if you do manage to win the lottery, you still have to put up with severe black crush as illustrated in that video. With CES 2020 so close, I would recommend waiting to see what the upper tier manufacturers are planning to release next year. Hopefully some dual panel LCDs or higher quality mini-led.
Local Dimming doesn't even seem to be on here with this set. I'd take this video with a grain of salt. The results here are not normal.
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post #1472 of 1532 Old 11-14-2019, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey Suchocki View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem like there are that many of these 8 series "out in the wild" just yet. I see professional reviews, but otherwise, it doesn't seem like too many are in the hands of consumers just yet. Or maybe Best Buy just hasn't updated it's reviews page--since that's the only place to buy the 8 series right now. Has there been a delay in shipments and getting these to consumers? I thought I recalled seeing consumer comments on the new 625 pretty quickly after it was allegedly shipped and available. Seems like the 8 series is being "slow-played". I suppose the limited distribution channel through is a big reason as to the slow-play, too.

For all the enthusiasm, feels like TCL stubbed its toe a bit on this. I would have thought they'd preferred a stronger buzz pre-BF. I just find it difficult to believe the average consumer is going to prefer the 8 series to a comparably priced Samsung Q90 or LG Oled--regardless of relative merits. Not to mention the Sony 950G looks like it will be significantly less expensive for BF. Strange strategy for TCL, imo. Maybe it's really intended to effectively be a 2020 model, in terms of comparing to alternatives--with the advantage of being more readily available in January-March before CES TVs are available. That would make a bit more sense. Cause it just doesn't feel like they're pushing for a high-volume holiday for this 8-series model.
My guess the fact that these sets are currently selling for more than people expect to pay for a TCL-brand TV (as evidenced by some of the comments in this thread) is a factor in their apparently slow spread.
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post #1473 of 1532 Old 11-14-2019, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by 12B4A View Post
I'm pretty sure any FALD LCD (Sony's not excluded) is going to do poorly on a star field unless it's a dual-lcd model. I really wasn't expecting TCL to do well for that particular content and I wouldn't expect it to be tolerable until the 25000 zone model in 2023. Caleb from Digital Trend's comment about the star field being "really clean" made me raise an eyebrow.

I do agree that CES will be very interesting for stacked LCDs. I'm crossing my fingers that power and thermals will be mitigated by the higher transmission stacks and that off-angle performance would at least be solid out to 30-40°.
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Local Dimming doesn't even seem to be on here with this set. I'd take this video with a grain of salt. The results here are not normal.
My comments were not referring to limitations that all FALD LCD sets have such as blooming, worse contrast/blacks than OLED, etc. I was talking only about build quality and software quality. The clouding you saw in that video shows typical poor TCL build quality. Look at the black screen before the starfield begins. When all the LEDs are off, you get a perfectly even black screen just like the OLED (proving FALD was enabled). As soon as the stars appear, you get clouding and uneven blacks in that lower left part of the screen. That clouding does not move or change with the stars because its a fault of the panels uneven zone illumination due to lack of factory uniformity calibration and compensation. Anytime the zones can't turn off completely, you're going to see that uneven lighting result. If he had displayed a full screen dark gray, we probably would have seen the same clouding pattern. This is nothing new if you look at gray uniformity scores of prior TCL products on rtings.com and compare to recent Sonys. The black crushing shows a very poor and crude FALD algorithm. Maybe they can improve it with firmware but the high-end Sony sets I've seen with similar scenes didn't have these issues even at launch. Maybe the 75" will be better?
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post #1474 of 1532 Old 11-14-2019, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by ReSultZ View Post
Another issue is the good not great input lag and local dimming issues in game mode.
Where are you getting input lag numbers? I’d be willing to bet Rtings lands it at 14ms.
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post #1475 of 1532 Old 11-14-2019, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Dizzy714 View Post
Where are you getting input lag numbers? I’d be willing to bet Rtings lands it at 14ms.
Tom's Guide measured it at 20ms. Don't remember if Vincent mentioned lag numbers in his video review.

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post #1476 of 1532 Old 11-14-2019, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by KD8118 View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC8D-6czrHs


Pretty good comparison here. I have never seen star field black level comparisons like this before! It shows that Mini-Led will never get there, not even close. Patiently waiting for dual lcd.
I like this reviewer. Just subscribed to his channel.
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post #1477 of 1532 Old 11-14-2019, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
My guess the fact that these sets are currently selling for more than people expect to pay for a TCL-brand TV (as evidenced by some of the comments in this thread) is a factor in their apparently slow spread.
I'm waiting for a decent sale on the 75 inch model. 3K is a bit too rich for my taste right now - considering that I have a working 70 inch Vizio M-Series with 2 years of warranty left that I will need to get rid of.
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post #1478 of 1532 Old 11-14-2019, 10:07 AM
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The recent video in question: First off he says that the TV has 25,000 mini leds and 900 zones- not true on the 65" that he was testing. Secondly, Vincent & Digital Trends both did reviews of this set and there was NO green push mentioned or evident in their reviews. Digital Trends also ran the Starfield test and it looked pretty darn good. I'll take this guy also with a grain of salt.. "believing everything you read and see on the internet can be detrimental to you health and sanity"
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post #1479 of 1532 Old 11-14-2019, 10:08 AM
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I really want to see this TV compared to the Z9F. The TCL 8 is the only other TV that I've personally considered for my needs.

How come the Q90R is all anyone talks about? The Z9F BEAT the Q90R at the shootout... plus the Q90R doesn't even have DV. The Q90's superior wide-angle filter is it's only trophy, if you ask me. Don't get me wrong, it's great TV. I'll just never get over how people hated the Z9F because it was the first to use a filter that degraded it's native contrast ratio.. and that "strike" against it seems to have left it thrown in the gutter for all of time. I barely missed out on the closeout Z9D's. I was upset until I compared my Z9F to one.. I wouldn't trade my Z9F for a Z9D ever.. unless it was sitting in the middle of a room because damn that set was sexy.

Really! Someone please do a technical comparison of the 75" Z9F vs. the 75" TCL 8. $5000 vs. $3000. Sony vs. TCL. Let's do this. I can already think of areas in which one will beat the other. An overall score would be interesting.

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post #1480 of 1532 Old 11-14-2019, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
My comments were not referring to limitations that all FALD LCD sets have such as blooming, worse contrast/blacks than OLED, etc. I was talking only about build quality and software quality. The clouding you saw in that video shows typical poor TCL build quality. Look at the black screen before the starfield begins. When all the LEDs are off, you get a perfectly even black screen just like the OLED (proving FALD was enabled). As soon as the stars appear, you get clouding and uneven blacks in that lower left part of the screen. That clouding does not move or change with the stars because its a fault of the panels uneven zone illumination due to lack of factory uniformity calibration and compensation. Anytime the zones can't turn off completely, you're going to see that uneven lighting result. If he had displayed a full screen dark gray, we probably would have seen the same clouding pattern. This is nothing new if you look at gray uniformity scores of prior TCL products on rtings.com and compare to recent Sonys. The black crushing shows a very poor and crude FALD algorithm. Maybe they can improve it with firmware but the high-end Sony sets I've seen with similar scenes didn't have these issues even at launch. Maybe the 75" will be better?
It's an unfair compare. Turn down the backlight by 2/3rds to match what an OLED can put out and it would be much closer. Change the exposure for the brighter set and the OLED would look too dark. Even then, no LCD will do a star field as well as OLED but there are always trade offs and perspective is lost when using a camera and PC to compare TVs... especially when they are of very different lumins output. The lost stars can be overcome by less aggressive FALD or FW update. It's still an immature set with good bones and a company quick to address things.
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post #1481 of 1532 Old 11-14-2019, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by KD8118 View Post
Yes I am very aware of the roadmap, but I came to the realization that mini-led can never get there upon viewing the star-field in the previous video. Basically look at the clouding in the star-field on the closeup and imagine the zones 20X bigger. Still wouldn't be anywhere close to eliminating the light bleed. This basically means that Mini-Led can get and will get very close to Oled on a lot of content but there will be situations it will simply be outclassed. This wont matter to most but since this is a hobby for me now, I would prefer something with the black levels of dual layer just because of the technical aspect of it. But don't fret these televisions will continue improving and I am sure they will have amazing pictures soon.
True, mini LEDs will not fix star fields, or scenes like it.

But, mini LEDs on this set will drive 2X+ the brightness of current OLEDs in bright scenes. It also appears (but has not been reviewed by someone like rtings that posts real numbers) that the color volume of this set will beat OLEDs (look at rtings q90r vs a9g)

Both technologies have their weaknesses.
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post #1482 of 1532 Old 11-14-2019, 12:50 PM
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9.1.2 6463-88 55r625 Default parameters apart from 0 sharpening, Dolby dark, natural cinema, local contrast medium, brightness normal.

The built in roku apps of Netflix and Amazon Prime (only tested with Dolby Vision shows) apply image processing that makes the image appear sharper / more detailed. It looks like selective edge enhancement and it cannot be turned off. Tested at the max bit rate, double checked with the debug overlay.

Furthermore, testing with a 4k resolution chart for aliasing, sharpening seems to be applied at 20 unlike their claim that 20 is the zero point. Also, If you pull the test patterns show in Netflix and use their regular chart, it shows some sort of artifact where the middle 1px bar is drawn through the center photograph. I don't know if that is a gamma or chrome sharpening diagnostic, but it is not visible on the Vizio. The bar also has a color cast on the r625. Unlike above enhancement, this is with the built in app and the fire stick 4k both, tested to be streaming at the max nitrate.

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post #1483 of 1532 Old 11-14-2019, 02:20 PM
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Better than the vizio p series quantum X 75"?

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post #1484 of 1532 Old 11-14-2019, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Dizzy714 View Post
Where are you getting input lag numbers? I’d be willing to bet Rtings lands it at 14ms.
How much?


It's 20

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post #1485 of 1532 Old 11-14-2019, 02:35 PM
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True, mini LEDs will not fix star fields, or scenes like it.
Really nice split screen comparison showing your point.

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post #1486 of 1532 Old 11-14-2019, 03:35 PM
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How much?


It's 20
Doesn’t Tom’s guide average/count out their numbers differently? I’m looking at the same TV’s on Rtings and their numbers are much different.
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post #1487 of 1532 Old 11-14-2019, 05:07 PM
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Hey everyone, new to this forum. As of Tuesday, I ordered the TCL 8 series 75Q825. I wanted to post my thoughts on it once I receive it and wanted to know if this is the right forum to do so.
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post #1488 of 1532 Old 11-14-2019, 05:10 PM
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Yes
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post #1489 of 1532 Old 11-14-2019, 05:14 PM
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I forgot to mention it's arriving on the weekend.
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post #1490 of 1532 Old 11-14-2019, 05:19 PM
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Thank you for letting me know dwaleke
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post #1491 of 1532 Old 11-14-2019, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzy714 View Post

Doesn’t sound like HDMI 2.1 will be needed, whatsoever, for a long time in regards to consoles.
Tell me how much bandwidth is needed for 4k60 RGB 10bit HDR?

HDMI 2.0 18Gbps cannot do it. 2.1 48Gbps is needed.
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post #1492 of 1532 Old 11-14-2019, 08:14 PM
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Tell me how much bandwidth is needed for 4k60 RGB 10bit HDR?

HDMI 2.0 18Gbps cannot do it. 2.1 48Gbps is needed.
That's why the game systems use 420 for 2160P60. Even at 12 bits it's only using 13.4Gbps. Or at 422 with 2160P60 at 12 bit it's still under 18Gbps at 17.8Gbps.
There is no need to use RGB when 420 at 10 bit with 2160P60 uses 11.1Gbps.

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post #1493 of 1532 Old 11-14-2019, 08:34 PM
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I want to share one more finding. TCL phone app allows changing gamma. Fun thing is that gamma setting 2.2 is actually closer to 2.4 and 2.0 is closer to 2.2. I tried different variations, but keeping default setting 2.2 and calibrating to 2.4 gave me the best picture.
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post #1494 of 1532 Old 11-15-2019, 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Dizzy714 View Post
Doesn’t Tom’s guide average/count out their numbers differently? I’m looking at the same TV’s on Rtings and their numbers are much different.
Link? Cause if they say don't say 20..what are they saying?
3 reviews tested it with 20 being the result.

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post #1495 of 1532 Old 11-15-2019, 02:47 AM
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Not sure where you’re getting that I’m referring to the current gen consoles when I said the new consoles.

But.

“In an interview with Gamespot, Xbox chief Phil Spencer stressed that Microsoft is focusing on getting games to run at 4K at a steady 60 frames per second on Scarlett.”

Doesn’t sound like HDMI 2.1 will be needed, whatsoever, for a long time in regards to consoles.
Yet MS used HDMI 2.1 features on it's One X console...

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post #1496 of 1532 Old 11-15-2019, 04:38 AM
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That's why the game systems use 420 for 2160P60. Even at 12 bits it's only using 13.4Gbps. Or at 422 with 2160P60 at 12 bit it's still under 18Gbps at 17.8Gbps.

There is no need to use RGB when 420 at 10 bit with 2160P60 uses 11.1Gbps.
RGB > YCbCr 422 > YCbCr 420

Gamers and PC users want to use RGB. Not YCbCr.
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post #1497 of 1532 Old 11-15-2019, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by tealchrome96 View Post
Hey everyone, new to this forum. As of Tuesday, I ordered the TCL 8 series 75Q825. I wanted to post my thoughts on it once I receive it and wanted to know if this is the right forum to do so.
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Yes
While helpful to come here to this post, a new owner's thread needs to be started. This one is littered with side discussions.
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post #1498 of 1532 Old 11-15-2019, 10:30 AM
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Keep in mind, HDMI 2.1 features don't necessarily need an HDMI 2.1 port/hardware. Auto Low Latency Mode is already a feature. That would be for 8k and 4k/120hz.
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post #1499 of 1532 Old 11-15-2019, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by tealchrome96 View Post
Hey everyone, new to this forum. As of Tuesday, I ordered the TCL 8 series 75Q825. I wanted to post my thoughts on it once I receive it and wanted to know if this is the right forum to do so.
You're in the right sub-forum. But an owner's thread is the best place to go for what you want. I went ahead and made a thread for ya:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...-s-thread.html

You could also post your thoughts in this thread, as well. Couldn't hurt to have it in both places!

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post #1500 of 1532 Old 11-15-2019, 12:24 PM
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Really nice split screen comparison showing your point.

https://youtu.be/SC8D-6czrHs?t=196
IMO Sony's colors look much more natural. The TCL just seems over saturated. Grass simply does not look so green in real life.
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