Epson Debuts LS500 Laser Projection TV at CEDIA 2019 - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 72 Old 09-15-2019, 09:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Mark, would be really cool if you had the LG HU85LA at the same time to do a mini shootout.
I asked... let's see what happens.

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post #32 of 72 Old 09-16-2019, 06:01 AM
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Whose TV is only on two hours per day?

Try more like eight or more.

The video does not look promising as far as black levels at 7:57.
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post #33 of 72 Old 09-16-2019, 06:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post
Whose TV is only on two hours per day?

Try more like eight or more.

The video does not look promising as far as black levels at 7:57.
People who do things other than watch TV?
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post #34 of 72 Old 09-16-2019, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
People who do things other than watch TV?
Most people don't just sit in front of the TV watching it, rather they watch things AND have the TV on - they make and eat dinner, spend time watching a few things with loved ones, and so on, but nevertheless the display is on in the background.

Since Epson is going for the "TV replacement" market rather than the "dedicated home theater" market, the use case for this is more likely to be along the lines of what I cite rather than two hours and out.
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post #35 of 72 Old 09-16-2019, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post
Most people don't just sit in front of the TV watching it, rather they watch things AND have the TV on - they make and eat dinner, spend time watching a few things with loved ones, and so on, but nevertheless the display is on in the background.

Since Epson is going for the "TV replacement" market rather than the "dedicated home theater" market, the use case for this is more likely to be along the lines of what I cite rather than two hours and out.
And? Please fill me in on what this 2 hour thing is all about? Does it have to do with light source longevity? I'd think it would be nice and long since it's laser. I'm sure you can leave the projector on, the ones at the show were on continuously.

Don't most people who watch TV all of the time have more than one TV? Since this unit turns on and off fast thanks to the laser, maybe just not let it go 8 hours a day when nobody is watching?

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post #36 of 72 Old 09-16-2019, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
And? Please fill me in on what this 2 hour thing is all about?
In the video, the narrator asks a question of the laser assembly's time to half brightness, and whether it's replaceable, and the Epson rep says that at two hours of use per day, the laser has a half brightness point of "twenty years" and that you'd probably replace it with some other Epson product by then anyway.

It all depends on which way Epson wants to market it, and it's clear they want it to be used to replace a large flat panel.

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post #37 of 72 Old 09-16-2019, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post
In the video, the narrator asks a question of the laser assembly's time to half brightness, and whether it's replaceable, and the Epson rep says that at two hours of use per day, the laser has a half brightness point of "ten years" and that you'd probably replace it with some other Epson product by then anyway.

However at the more typical nine hour usage I cite, if say the actual hours before half brightness is more like 11,000, you're looking at half brightness after a little more than three years, which I don't think would sit well with customers truly using it as a replacement for a large LCD TV.

It all depends on which way Epson wants to market it, and it's clear they want it to be used to replace a large flat panel.
I think TV addicts will keep buying TVs and leave them on all day and normal people will buy something like this and keep it on in the evening for the 4-5 hours a day that I understand to still be the average viewing time, although that drops the younger you get because of other screens.

So... I postulate soap-opera addicted stay-at-home parents might be disappointed after let's say 4 years, but other than that I'm not sure I see any issue at all.

I see this as something that gets turned on for sports and family movie night, not as the primary way someone watches cooking shows and CNN.

I'd like to see a statistic that people keep their living room TV on 8+ hours per day. That sounds like behavior from another era.
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post #38 of 72 Old 09-16-2019, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I'd like to see a statistic that people keep their living room TV on 8+ hours per day. That sounds like behavior from another era.
I'm not sure about statistics, but that's how I use my TV, it's how my Dad uses his, it's how my former mother-in-law uses hers, and how parents I know with kids use theirs.

Once again, Epson went out of their way to say "TV replacement" when discussing this, and to me that means as an alternative to a large flat screen for the family room, not as a home theater projector.

Granted. that's because none of us consume content on phones or other devices (and really, if I had kids I'd take their phones away if they were choosing to watch content on a 5" display rather than a 100" one. )

Note the Epson rep also proudly touts compatibility with "the latest gaming consoles" which also increases usage.

Update: I went back and he quoted "over 20,000 hours" to half brightness, so that's more like six years, and I think that's something most customers would be happy with.

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post #39 of 72 Old 09-16-2019, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I think TV addicts will keep buying TVs and leave them on all day and normal people will buy something like this and keep it on in the evening for the 4-5 hours a day that I understand to still be the average viewing time, although that drops the younger you get because of other screens.

So... I postulate soap-opera addicted stay-at-home parents might be disappointed after let's say 4 years, but other than that I'm not sure I see any issue at all.

I see this as something that gets turned on for sports and family movie night, not as the primary way someone watches cooking shows and CNN.

I'd like to see a statistic that people keep their living room TV on 8+ hours per day. That sounds like behavior from another era.
It's how I use my TV. Not saying I'm the norm, or not. Don't care either way lol. Just saying that I exist.

Have like 12k hours on my E6 OLED, and it's coming up on 3yrs at the end of November. I have a social life, and take a lot of trips as I have unlimited vacation at my job, but do watch a lot of content and game a lot, whenever I do find myself at home. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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post #40 of 72 Old 09-16-2019, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Stuntman_Mike View Post
It's how I use my TV. Not saying I'm the norm, or not. Don't care either way lol. Just saying that I exist.

Have like 12k hours on my E6 OLED, and it's coming up on 3yrs at the end of November. I have a social life, and take a lot of trips as I have unlimited vacation at my job, but do watch a lot of content and game a lot, whenever I do find myself at home. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Hopefully anyone buying this, who has that sort of "TV always on" viewing habit, does the math on the light source and decides if it's worth it or not for the extra size. Otherwise, obviously... buy a TV.

I happen to use a projector as my primary display in my living room and I simply don;t run it as much as I did when I used a TV for that. No big deal.

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post #41 of 72 Old 09-16-2019, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Hopefully anyone buying this, who has that sort of "TV always on" viewing habit, does the math on the light source and decides if it's worth it or not for the extra size. Otherwise, obviously... buy a TV.

I happen to use a projector as my primary display in my living room and I simply don;t run it as much as I did when I used a TV for that. No big deal.
Caveat. I don't just leave the TV on. I'm actually watching some content or playing some content, or my wife is, for that amount of time. Not that there's anything wrong with leaving it on as background noise, if people wish. Just saying, not my use case.

I used to use a front projector as my main living room display also, and I didn't change my usage habits... yeah buying and changing lamps was annoying lol.

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post #42 of 72 Old 09-16-2019, 12:16 PM
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I asked... let's see what happens.
Hey Mark are the included screens ALR?

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post #43 of 72 Old 09-16-2019, 12:50 PM
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I was looking very closely at the LG HU85L but the lag was the biggest deal breaker.
Fan noise will be the other potential issue to watch for.

I really like the look of this and 100" happens to perfectly maximize the space in my room. Watching closely to see if this finally makes me ditch my 85" TV.
It will be back to the world of excellent Epson service \ questionable Epson quality control.
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post #44 of 72 Old 09-17-2019, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by anthonymoody View Post
Hey Mark are the included screens ALR?
The fact that the difference in price between the 100" and 120" screen/projector packages is $1,000 guarantees they are ALR. There's no way there's a $1,000 difference in pricing between 100" and 120" matte screens. But UST ALR screens >100" carry a hefty premium.
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post #45 of 72 Old 09-17-2019, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fitbrit View Post
This would be great for me if:

1. Came without the screen
2. Could be mounted inverted on ceiling close to screen
3. Did 3D (the remote seems to have a 3D format button)
4. Had a decently low response time for gaming
5. Had some flexibility like lens shift/zoom

This is just a wish-list for any 4K HDR UST that I would consider buying. Anyone know of a decent one that checks all these?

Questions about this Epson:
I'm assuming the zoom is fixed for the 100" and 120" models? Otherwise you could buy the 100" model, not use the screen that comes with it and then zoom to a larger screen size.
Epson said they would offer a credit through the dealer if the screen is not required.

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post #46 of 72 Old 09-17-2019, 09:56 AM
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Epson said they would offer a credit through the dealer if the screen is not required.
Thanks. That's cool. I don't think this is the projector for my home theater room, but it might be the one for the living room eventually.
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post #47 of 72 Old 09-17-2019, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Epson unveiled a new laser projector at CEDIA 2019. So you might be wondering why I posted about it here in the LCD flat panel displays section. Here's why... this UST (ultra short throw) 3-LCD laser projector looks and acts a lot like a TV, including having smart functionality built in. But what makes it really stand out is its ability to output 4000 lumens from a laser light source, along with its use of a very high quality lens that's sharp from edge to edge (I saw this in person). The included screen (available in several sizes) was clearly effective even in the open (and bright) show floor of the Colorado Convention Center.


Simply put, Epson's new LS500 is the first projector I've seen that's affordable enough, bright enough and has a sufficiently high quality lens to make it a viable alternative to a big-screen TV. It looks quite phenomenal projecting onto 100-inch and 120-inch screens, with the added bonus of zero reflections versus flat-panel TVs. It's quite surprising how TV-like this Epson looks.

Read more here.
As much of a fan of Epson I am and recommend to my clients I've recently installed the LG laser projector which costs a bit more but looks alot better than this design. And as well has room to sit a sound bar on top of as well unlike the Epson.
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post #48 of 72 Old 09-17-2019, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fitbrit View Post
This would be great for me if:

1. Came without the screen
2. Could be mounted inverted on ceiling close to screen
3. Did 3D (the remote seems to have a 3D format button)
4. Had a decently low response time for gaming
5. Had some flexibility like lens shift/zoom

This is just a wish-list for any 4K HDR UST that I would consider buying. Anyone know of a decent one that checks all these?
Your wish might be Epsons command, in rev 2...IF this sells decently. I'm already thinking of the 'coffee table mod', on lockable casters..but I don't know how flexible the placement requirements are. And I agree with some folks here...sell it with or WITHOUT THE SCREEN...That would help Us HT geeks to adopt it, unless that is a special and proprietary screen for this setup. A scope feature would be nice, if indeed it could be used with any normal screen.
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post #49 of 72 Old 09-17-2019, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I think TV addicts will keep buying TVs and leave them on all day and normal people will buy something like this and keep it on in the evening for the 4-5 hours a day that I understand to still be the average viewing time, although that drops the younger you get because of other screens.

So... I postulate soap-opera addicted stay-at-home parents might be disappointed after let's say 4 years, but other than that I'm not sure I see any issue at all.

I see this as something that gets turned on for sports and family movie night, not as the primary way someone watches cooking shows and CNN.

I'd like to see a statistic that people keep their living room TV on 8+ hours per day. That sounds like behavior from another era.
As a retired couple in Arizona I can tell you that my 82 inch is turned on at 8am and turned off at 11pm. Naturally that will vary from day to day but on average 10 hours a day 7 days a week is a accurate average.
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post #50 of 72 Old 09-17-2019, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
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As a retired couple in Arizona I can tell you that my 82 inch is turned on at 8am and turned off at 11pm. Naturally that will vary from day to day but on average 10 hours a day 7 days a week is a accurate average.
Ultimately, in terms of appeal, it's for people who want the screen size and lumens in a USTat this price point. Seen that way, it does not matter how long you leave it on... A 100" TV costs a lot more than replacing this projector a few times, and a 120" TV is basically a unicorn. So it's a matter of wanting the size, and understanding how long it will last if it's used that way, and that it would need to be replaced after a few years if it was used all day long.

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post #51 of 72 Old 09-17-2019, 03:09 PM
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We know what a replacement bulb costs. What is the next step and cost when this unit falls below acceptable brightness? Also, when you reach half life what are your "existing unit" options options? Can you simply turn it higher?
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post #52 of 72 Old 09-17-2019, 03:28 PM
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For a 120" screen this thing has to be almost 3ft away from the wall measured from the front (back?) of the unit. I have no idea why Epson screwed this up over the LS100, it's hardly an ultra short throw projector anymore, closer to just a "short throw" projector. Completely kills it for me.
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post #53 of 72 Old 09-17-2019, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Epson unveiled a new laser projector at CEDIA 2019. So you might be wondering why I posted about it here in the LCD flat panel displays section. Here's why... this UST (ultra short throw) 3-LCD laser projector looks and acts a lot like a TV, including having smart functionality built in. But what makes it really stand out is its ability to output 4000 lumens from a laser light source, along with its use of a very high quality lens that's sharp from edge to edge (I saw this in person). The included screen (available in several sizes) was clearly effective even in the open (and bright) show floor of the Colorado Convention Center.


Simply put, Epson's new LS500 is the first projector I've seen that's affordable enough, bright enough and has a sufficiently high quality lens to make it a viable alternative to a big-screen TV. It looks quite phenomenal projecting onto 100-inch and 120-inch screens, with the added bonus of zero reflections versus flat-panel TVs. It's quite surprising how TV-like this Epson looks.

Read more here.
Hope the screen is completely flat. The slightest ripple in the screen surface will be exaggerated when used with any Ultra Short Throw projector. I know because we have an LG PF1000U at home. There's something about watching football games on a 100" screen that adds to the excitement. Most TV shows are fine on the ol' 50" Pioneer plasma, but those sports just cry out for the larger screen .... as long as it's without any ripples!
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post #54 of 72 Old 09-17-2019, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Ultimately, in terms of appeal, it's for people who want the screen size and lumens in a USTat this price point. Seen that way, it does not matter how long you leave it on... A 100" TV costs a lot more than replacing this projector a few times, and a 120" TV is basically a unicorn. So it's a matter of wanting the size, and understanding how long it will last if it's used that way, and that it would need to be replaced after a few years if it was used all day long.
Which I think is silly and wasteful as a technology...At least give us the ability to have the laser assemblies replaced Wouldn't that just help support the Companies revenue as well? ---Well, that's a different topic...
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post #55 of 72 Old 09-17-2019, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
I would run into the same issue. And there's no easy workaround.

The solution is either a console with about 25" of depth or a unit with shelves that allows you to place the CC underneath and angle it at the viewing position.

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post #56 of 72 Old 09-19-2019, 08:17 AM
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We know what a replacement bulb costs. What is the next step and cost when this unit falls below acceptable brightness? Also, when you reach half life what are your "existing unit" options options? Can you simply turn it higher?
When I was investigating purchasing an Epson LS1000 laser front projector there were all kinds of naysayers on this forum raising all types of negative hypotheticals regarding the laser. Long story short I purchased it and two lamp based JVC projectors. The Epson has been my go to projector for nearly four years. Because it is laser it's on and off all the time -- I don't worry about hours of usage at all.

Anyone interested in buying one of these should also note that Epson stands behind their products like no other manufacturer of which I'm aware (are you listening Sony?). If you have a legitimate complaint within the warranty period (2 to 3 years depending on the product) Epson will replace your unit immediately at no cost to you.

Anyone still interested in 3D should also consider this unit -- T.V.s are no longer 3D capable. So, not only can you get a huge T.V. like image but you also have the 3D option (imagine a bright 3D image on a 120" screen).

I currently own and use products made by LG, Sony, Samsung, JVC and Epson. I wouldn't think twice about buying another Epson product.
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post #57 of 72 Old 09-19-2019, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
When I was investigating purchasing an Epson LS1000 laser front projector there were all kinds of naysayers on this forum raising all types of negative hypotheticals regarding the laser. Long story short I purchased it and two lamp based JVC projectors. The Epson has been my go to projector for nearly four years. Because it is laser it's on and off all the time -- I don't worry about hours of usage at all.

Anyone interested in buying one of these should also note that Epson stands behind their products like no other manufacturer of which I'm aware (are you listening Sony?). If you have a legitimate complaint within the warranty period (2 to 3 years depending on the product) Epson will replace your unit immediately at no cost to you.

Anyone still interested in 3D should also consider this unit -- T.V.s are no longer 3D capable. So, not only can you get a huge T.V. like image but you also have the 3D option (imagine a bright 3D image on a 120" screen).

I currently own and use products made by LG, Sony, Samsung, JVC and Epson. I wouldn't think twice about buying another Epson product.
I appreciate your answer but two questions remain. What do you do when you reach half life, and can you replace the lasers like you do a bulb? Also how do you determine "half life"? Is it a eyeball guess or some technical measurement? Is it based on the brightness level being set to MAX or can you simply turn it up? How often would a similar product see a lower street price than the price being quoted here?
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post #58 of 72 Old 09-19-2019, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post
I appreciate your answer but two questions remain. What do you do when you reach half life, and can you replace the lasers like you do a bulb? Also how do you determine "half life"? Is it a eyeball guess or some technical measurement? Is it based on the brightness level being set to MAX or can you simply turn it up? How often would a similar product see a lower street price than the price being quoted here?
To the best of my knowledge 1/2 life is reached at around 20,000 hours and less if you use it in high mode. That's about 14 years using the unit for 4 hours a day every day of the year. 4,000 lumens is about 2 to 3 times brighter than most projectors (assuming there close to calibrated lumens). At half life this unit may still be usable -- especially if you darken the room. That's assuming you still own it in the year 2033.


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post #59 of 72 Old 09-20-2019, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Jish9 View Post
I can see this in many living rooms. Looked last year at the Uber expensive Sony models and the closest one in output was $60k at 5000 lumens. Epson has it for $6k at 4000 lumens! Who wouldn’t want to watch the game or a movie in their family room on this. Don’t know much about latency time but suspect you can also game. It also appears that the HDMI output has eARC type feature to pass through the UHD audio to the SSP. Will be interesting to see some actual reviews of the unit.
Strange fact that Epson decided to exclude brightness measurement method from specs, there's no ANSI lm anymore. So Sony vpl-vw5000 or Canon xeed 4k5020 are 25% brighter with price 7-10 times higher ))) something goes wrong for Sony and Canon.
Device called 4k because of edid id and input is 4k compatible? But it's still made with old 1080x1920 3lcd panels...
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post #60 of 72 Old 09-21-2019, 07:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by vorona View Post
Strange fact that Epson decided to exclude brightness measurement method from specs, there's no ANSI lm anymore. So Sony vpl-vw5000 or Canon xeed 4k5020 are 25% brighter with price 7-10 times higher ))) something goes wrong for Sony and Canon.
Device called 4k because of edid id and input is 4k compatible? But it's still made with old 1080x1920 3lcd panels...
Hey, per your profile six years of silence and finally a post! Welcome to the conversation.

Epson is not known for fibbing about lumen output but my guess is it's a question of what sort of color gamut you get at a given brightness. For TV/sports it's a non-issue but for HDR movies it's a big deal so maybe you'll find an answer there.

As for the LCD panels, no Epson does not do true 4K "on screen" with this projector, and that shows if you try and display a 4K PC desktop. But... for the intended use the lack of screen door effect is the main benefit of using the approach, with any extra visible detail being a bonus. Which, when showing 1080i or 720p sports, is just as good as native 4K projection when it comes to detail rendition.

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Last edited by imagic; 09-21-2019 at 07:55 AM.
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