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post #1 of 36 Old 10-07-2019, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Mini-Led Vs Fald

I guess it's time to start this thread awaiting the first mini-led display.


What are the expectations? Is there going to be a big difference in contrast and black levels? Lets assume TCL built an equivalent set with the same number of traditional led zones instead of Mini-Led, what would the difference be?


Is the purpose of this technology future scalability? Meaning will we see immediate results or will we have to wait until the technology scales up to start seeing the real results? The answers will determine if the 2019 8 series is something to get really excited about or it will just be another flagship.
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post #2 of 36 Old 10-08-2019, 12:43 PM
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Shouldn't the title be "Mini-LED FALD vs. traditional FALD?"

Anyway, just using smaller LEDs in and of itself won't do anything to improve black levels or contrast, and reducing blooming requires more zones. I think the main thing to expect from using more densely-packed LEDs are improved uniformity, and possibly higher brightness as well.
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post #3 of 36 Old 10-08-2019, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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I guess it's time for many of us to be underwhelmed! If they wanted to make a real splash they should have brought this out with 2,000 zones. The led's are already there just needed to control more of them individually.
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post #4 of 36 Old 10-08-2019, 01:40 PM
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To me mini-LED isn't a game changer, it's more of a stop-gap. I don't think that TCL will achieve anything with mini-LED that Sony, for example, didn't achieve with "regular" LED's on sets such as the Z9D. Sure, mini-LED's *could* be used to make nicer FALD sets, but I personally think that self-emissive technology is the (near) future and so that is what the big dogs are R&D'ing right now.

To me mini-LED's mostly give you less banding (better uniformity), maybe wider viewing angles (at least in theory), and a thinner set. For the most part, uniformity is fine these days. Thin is nice if it matters to you.

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To me mini-LED isn't a game changer, it's more of a stop-gap. I don't think that TCL will achieve anything with mini-LED that Sony, for example, didn't achieve with "regular" LED's on sets such as the Z9D. Sure, mini-LED's *could* be used to make nicer FALD sets, but I personally think that self-emissive technology is the (near) future and so that is what the big dogs are R&D'ing right now.

To me mini-LED's mostly give you less banding (better uniformity), maybe wider viewing angles (at least in theory), and a thinner set. For the most part, uniformity is fine these days. Thin is nice if it matters to you.

This is what I fear! The Z9D had practically the same amount of zones. I feel like we are being set up for disappointment.
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This is what I fear! The Z9D had practically the same amount of zones. I feel like we are being set up for disappointment.
Disappointment? The Z9D cost $10K for the 75" model when it was released. The MSRP for the 75" TCL 8 series is $2999.
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This is what I fear! The Z9D had practically the same amount of zones. I feel like we are being set up for disappointment.
Disappointment? The Z9D cost $10K for the 75" model when it was released. The MSRP for the 75" TCL 8 series is $2999.
Had no idea it even costed half that!
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Disappointment? The Z9D cost $10K for the 75" model when it was released. The MSRP for the 75" TCL 8 series is $2999.

I was always aware of this mystical creature! I just rewatched some reviews and now I am more excited. The buzz a couple of years ago was that Sony tried to top Oled with this TV and failed that's why they pulled back and are focusing solely on Oled. I never knew the astronomical price! It makes no sense to spend that much on an lcd so this completely changes the dynamic! Let me clarify it makes no sense for someone in my financial situation to spend that much.
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post #9 of 36 Old 10-09-2019, 07:15 AM
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Main benefits of TCL's Mini LED will be uniformity and sustained brightness. At least in the first go round. Contrast to price ratio should make it a great product though. The Sony Z9D wasn't the OLED killer people wanted it to be, but it's still probably the best FALD ever made and boasted great contrast and PQ. If the TCL can match that, with better uniformity, even more zones in a 75" version (think the 75" Z9D had like 800 zones and the 100" had close to 1000) and is throwing QD on top, which Sony hasn't been providing, at a price of $2999, then this is still something to be very excited about.
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post #10 of 36 Old 10-09-2019, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by p3trol_h3ad View Post
To me mini-LED isn't a game changer, it's more of a stop-gap. I don't think that TCL will achieve anything with mini-LED that Sony, for example, didn't achieve with "regular" LED's on sets such as the Z9D. Sure, mini-LED's *could* be used to make nicer FALD sets, but I personally think that self-emissive technology is the (near) future and so that is what the big dogs are R&D'ing right now.

To me mini-LED's mostly give you less banding (better uniformity), maybe wider viewing angles (at least in theory), and a thinner set. For the most part, uniformity is fine these days. Thin is nice if it matters to you.
I agree... FALD is a workaround (hack) to compensate for the poor native contrast LCD displays have; best MVA panels available now do ~5,000:1. Tossing in 8932788398903290 FALD lights behind the panel is not going to fix/hide the poor contrast the LCD panel has. It will probably just introduce new quirks.

The only real innovation in LCD technology is the dual layer LCD panels which produce native contrasts of 150,000:1 to 500,000:1 (depending on who's design you look at). You could drive these with edge lighting and outperform any FALD set ever made. This is where LCD will overtake OLED; assuming they can get the technology right.
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It looks like a top notch miniLED LCD is to expensive currently that is why the 10.000 zones Samsung miniLED failed. I saw that TCL roadmap in which they planned to put more leds and more zones in a TV every few years. With them planning to put a miniLED LCD with more than (800 zones in 2019, 4.000 zones in 2021) 15.000 zones on the markted in 2023 they asume that the top notch miniLED LCD be affortable by then. Traditional FALD should be compared to such top notch miniLED FALD LCD.
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It looks like a top notch miniLED LCD is to expensive currently that is why the 10.000 zones Samsung miniLED failed. I saw that TCL roadmap in which they planned to put more leds and more zones in a TV every few years. With them planning to put a miniLED LCD with more than (800 zones in 2019, 4.000 zones in 2021) 15.000 zones on the markted in 2023 they asume that the top notch miniLED LCD be affortable by then. Traditional FALD should be compared to such top notch miniLED FALD LCD.

Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like the delay to add more zones is purely done for marketing reasons. I mean all the LED's are already there, they don't need to add any more, just control more zones. I just don't buy that they are incapable of controlling more than 760 zones at a time!
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post #13 of 36 Old 10-09-2019, 01:22 PM
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Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like the delay to add more zones is purely done for marketing reasons. I mean all the LED's are already there, they don't need to add any more, just control more zones. I just don't buy that they are incapable of controlling more than 760 zones at a time!
It's not marketing. TCL just isn't there yet in terms of processing and algo development.

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post #14 of 36 Old 10-09-2019, 01:27 PM
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I agree... FALD is a workaround (hack) to compensate for the poor native contrast LCD displays have; best MVA panels available now do ~5,000:1. Tossing in 8932788398903290 FALD lights behind the panel is not going to fix/hide the poor contrast the LCD panel has. It will probably just introduce new quirks.

The only real innovation in LCD technology is the dual layer LCD panels which produce native contrasts of 150,000:1 to 500,000:1 (depending on who's design you look at). You could drive these with edge lighting and outperform any FALD set ever made. This is where LCD will overtake OLED; assuming they can get the technology right.
Dual layer is an inefficient use of the light. Dealing with all the extra heat generated to produce light thrown away in the LCD section is probably going limit this technology reaching the masses, IMO.
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post #15 of 36 Old 10-09-2019, 01:37 PM
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Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like the delay to add more zones is purely done for marketing reasons. I mean all the LED's are already there, they don't need to add any more, just control more zones. I just don't buy that they are incapable of controlling more than 760 zones at a time!
Samsung demod a 85'' miniLED with more than 10.000 zones. They did not launched the TV end 2018 because it would be way to expensive according flatpanelshd who talked with Samsung reps. So currently nobody is able to launch such TV at consumer prices that is why we only see a few up to 1.000 zones of those right now.
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Dual layer is an inefficient use of the light. Dealing with all the extra heat generated to produce light thrown away in the LCD section is probably going limit this technology reaching the masses, IMO.
What you describe is LCD in general.... it's light blocking technology. However FALD does help with this; only put the light where you need it.

According to Hisense the dual panel doesn't add that much more on depending on the design. If you look back at all of the articles they showed it was a 2-3% difference on one of the designs they was using (keep in mind they have multiple) and they have some with completely different approaches. So it's hard to say as it's a non-specific answer to a complex question.

Also; there was a video from an insider who also stated they could simplify the design down greatly and not need multiple polarizers; only one which would increase the efficiency. A lot of the initial designs of the dual panel are just sandwiches; which are not efficient. However it sounds like some of the FABs are trying completely different approaches.

I think this means they will either solve it, or perhaps find a work around (lower resolution back panel for example). A lot of the light loss I was hearing was in the color filtering, which is only needed one time not two. And as well the higher the density of the back monochrome panel the more light it loses.

We'll see I guess... I'm staying hopeful but in all honestly I'm skeptical they will deliver something to the US next year. As it sounds like the Hisense dual panel launch in China was no different than Samsung's OLED TV that sold years ago (small and insignificant)
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Samsung demod a 85'' miniLED with more than 10.000 zones. They did not launched the TV end 2018 because it would be way to expensive according flatpanelshd who talked with Samsung reps. So currently nobody is able to launch such TV at consumer prices that is why we only see a few up to 1.000 zones of those right now.

I would be interested to know the performance of such a television! Did it match or come pretty damn close to oled? This is our future!
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post #18 of 36 Old 10-09-2019, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
What you describe is LCD in general.... it's light blocking technology. However FALD does help with this; only put the light where you need it.

According to Hisense the dual panel doesn't add that much more on depending on the design. If you look back at all of the articles they showed it was a 2-3% difference on one of the designs they was using (keep in mind they have multiple) and they have some with completely different approaches. So it's hard to say as it's a non-specific answer to a complex question.

Also; there was a video from an insider who also stated they could simplify the design down greatly and not need multiple polarizers; only one which would increase the efficiency. A lot of the initial designs of the dual panel are just sandwiches; which are not efficient. However it sounds like some of the FABs are trying completely different approaches.

I think this means they will either solve it, or perhaps find a work around (lower resolution back panel for example). A lot of the light loss I was hearing was in the color filtering, which is only needed one time not two. And as well the higher the density of the back monochrome panel the more light it loses.

We'll see I guess... I'm staying hopeful but in all honestly I'm skeptical they will deliver something to the US next year. As it sounds like the Hisense dual panel launch in China was no different than Samsung's OLED TV that sold years ago (small and insignificant)
I suppose I shouldn't generalize in a landscape of ever-changing technology -- but, everything I've seen to-date added seemingly "severe" additional light losses. It appeared the concomitant heat-sinking required fans and thick enclosures, etc -- things that today's consumers would be unlikely to tolerate.

But, yes, we'll see...for sure, LED still has enough benefits to forge on. I would certainly like to see it at its peak!
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If they manage to get all 25,000 operating independently it would be about 18x18 grouping of pixels per LED. It makes a good interim solution until full LED sets finally shrink down to fit in a living room and don't cost as much as the house....
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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
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Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
What you describe is LCD in general.... it's light blocking technology. However FALD does help with this; only put the light where you need it.

According to Hisense the dual panel doesn't add that much more on depending on the design. If you look back at all of the articles they showed it was a 2-3% difference on one of the designs they was using (keep in mind they have multiple) and they have some with completely different approaches. So it's hard to say as it's a non-specific answer to a complex question.

Also; there was a video from an insider who also stated they could simplify the design down greatly and not need multiple polarizers; only one which would increase the efficiency. A lot of the initial designs of the dual panel are just sandwiches; which are not efficient. However it sounds like some of the FABs are trying completely different approaches.

I think this means they will either solve it, or perhaps find a work around (lower resolution back panel for example). A lot of the light loss I was hearing was in the color filtering, which is only needed one time not two. And as well the higher the density of the back monochrome panel the more light it loses.

We'll see I guess... I'm staying hopeful but in all honestly I'm skeptical they will deliver something to the US next year. As it sounds like the Hisense dual panel launch in China was no different than Samsung's OLED TV that sold years ago (small and insignificant)
I suppose I shouldn't generalize in a landscape of ever-changing technology -- but, everything I've seen to-date added seemingly "severe" additional light losses. It appeared the concomitant heat-sinking required fans and thick enclosures, etc -- things that today's consumers would be unlikely to tolerate.

But, yes, we'll see...for sure, LED still has enough benefits to forge on. I would certainly like to see it at its peak!
It's good to have youR thought process it's realistic...

Did you see specs on the hisense U9E launched in China? ~600 nits 300watts. No fans, no heat sinks. Just normal looking TV. 4k front panel with 1080 monochrome.

I'll have to go digging on the Chinese search engine (baidu) again see if I can find newer tech reviews on it.
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Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
What you describe is LCD in general.... it's light blocking technology. However FALD does help with this; only put the light where you need it.

According to Hisense the dual panel doesn't add that much more on depending on the design. If you look back at all of the articles they showed it was a 2-3% difference on one of the designs they was using (keep in mind they have multiple) and they have some with completely different approaches. So it's hard to say as it's a non-specific answer to a complex question.

Also; there was a video from an insider who also stated they could simplify the design down greatly and not need multiple polarizers; only one which would increase the efficiency. A lot of the initial designs of the dual panel are just sandwiches; which are not efficient. However it sounds like some of the FABs are trying completely different approaches.

I think this means they will either solve it, or perhaps find a work around (lower resolution back panel for example). A lot of the light loss I was hearing was in the color filtering, which is only needed one time not two. And as well the higher the density of the back monochrome panel the more light it loses.

We'll see I guess... I'm staying hopeful but in all honestly I'm skeptical they will deliver something to the US next year. As it sounds like the Hisense dual panel launch in China was no different than Samsung's OLED TV that sold years ago (small and insignificant)
I suppose I shouldn't generalize in a landscape of ever-changing technology -- but, everything I've seen to-date added seemingly "severe" additional light losses. It appeared the concomitant heat-sinking required fans and thick enclosures, etc -- things that today's consumers would be unlikely to tolerate.

But, yes, we'll see...for sure, LED still has enough benefits to forge on. I would certainly like to see it at its peak!
It's good to have youR thought process it's realistic...

Did you see specs on the hisense U9E launched in China? ~600 nits 300watts. No fans, no heat sinks. Just normal looking TV. 4k front panel with 1080 monochrome.

I'll have to go digging on the Chinese search engine (baidu) again see if I can find newer tech reviews on it.
This is the best shot we have at matching or surpassing oled without the chance of burn in. If Hisense somehow pulls this off they will majorly disrupt the television market.
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Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
I agree... FALD is a workaround (hack) to compensate for the poor native contrast LCD displays have; best MVA panels available now do ~5,000:1. Tossing in 8932788398903290 FALD lights behind the panel is not going to fix/hide the poor contrast the LCD panel has. It will probably just introduce new quirks.

The only real innovation in LCD technology is the dual layer LCD panels which produce native contrasts of 150,000:1 to 500,000:1 (depending on who's design you look at). You could drive these with edge lighting and outperform any FALD set ever made. This is where LCD will overtake OLED; assuming they can get the technology right.
Curious. Which ones?

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I would be interested to know the performance of such a television! Did it match or come pretty damn close to oled? This is our future!
Not shure what the point was of that 85'' Q9S number of zones. It might be that they put it together with 8K to make 8K extra shiny.
Or maybe number of zones was exaggerated to get some media attention (nobody was able to check the TVs pq so they could claim whatever they wanted).


Forbes states ''Micro Dimming'' but that is not what it is. If those 10.000 zones were real it would be a miniLED. Also ''it IS going to go on sale'' is false. Arched asked for number of zones several times Samsung responded each time ''more than 10.000 zones''.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc.../#2620f1561dde
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post #24 of 36 Old 10-10-2019, 05:45 AM
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Curious. Which ones?

I'm shooting off of memory (which is not a good idea) I'd have to go lookup the specific models again... so anyone who's tracking/passionate about specific models feel free to chime in...

All of Samsungs I saw this year were low, ~3000:1 relying heavy on the FALD to makeup the rest (Q90R for example).

P Quantum Vizio's are close to 5,500:1 and Hisense and TCL closer to 6,000:1 (depends on who's measurements you use; but all of them are within 500:1 of one another so no drastic differences between different reviews). This just speaks of native contrast of the LCD panel itself. The implementation of FALD can "enhance" things more for ANSI chart measurements. The Vizio for example goes to ~14,000:1 with FALD enabled on the test patterns.


All of these are kinda sad compared to the Hisense dual panel (U9E) in China, which measures 400,000:1 and is over 500 nits.

Translate to english... (right click in chrome, or answer yes when it pops up)

http://baijiahao.baidu.com/s?id=1639...=spider&for=pc

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post #25 of 36 Old 10-10-2019, 06:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Would panel manufacturers be able to build dual zones into a single panel? Basically doubling up the liquid crystals. Each set of liquid crystals within the cell will have their own signal so they are independent from one another?
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post #26 of 36 Old 10-10-2019, 07:41 AM
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What new technology doesn't have issues in its early stages of prototype development? If the issues appear to be unresolvable then the new technology is dropped and different technologies are pursued. If the issues appear to be resolvable development continues with each new prototype moving closer to production ready. If only we knew everything that engineers working on the development know our predictions here could be much more accurate.
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What new technology doesn't have issues in its early stages of prototype development? If the issues appear to be unresolvable then the new technology is dropped and different technologies are pursued. If the issues appear to be resolvable development continues with each new prototype moving closer to production ready. If only we knew everything that engineers working on the development know our predictions here could be much more accurate.
yes, precisely. There was a video of an insider who spoke about dual panels and the future of them. He hinted they were solving the issues and hinted towards the design changes required to do so. As well he also indicated LCD FAB was overbuilt in Asia; way over invested. Which means there are lots of idle hours in brand new FABs waiting to be utilized. So they are all gunning to get more manufacturing...
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Last edited by SiGGy; 10-10-2019 at 08:19 AM.
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post #28 of 36 Old 10-10-2019, 11:09 AM
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It's good to have youR thought process it's realistic...

Did you see specs on the hisense U9E launched in China? ~600 nits 300watts. No fans, no heat sinks. Just normal looking TV. 4k front panel with 1080 monochrome.

I'll have to go digging on the Chinese search engine (baidu) again see if I can find newer tech reviews on it.
I did not, if that could scale up it'd be cool. But, to compete with current LED's nit levels, it's going to be much higher than 300 watts if it's linear (or worse, logarithmic). Also, I don't think 600 nits even keeps up with OLED, so...it's cool, but, needs work.

That said, don't get me wrong -- I'm glad someone is putting the work in! I would buy an OLED, but my family's usage would have me perpetually awaiting a sticky channel logo, lol.
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post #29 of 36 Old 10-10-2019, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
I'm shooting off of memory (which is not a good idea) I'd have to go lookup the specific models again... so anyone who's tracking/passionate about specific models feel free to chime in...

All of Samsungs I saw this year were low, ~3000:1 relying heavy on the FALD to makeup the rest (Q90R for example).

P Quantum Vizio's are close to 5,500:1 and Hisense and TCL closer to 6,000:1 (depends on who's measurements you use; but all of them are within 500:1 of one another so no drastic differences between different reviews). This just speaks of native contrast of the LCD panel itself. The implementation of FALD can "enhance" things more for ANSI chart measurements. The Vizio for example goes to ~14,000:1 with FALD enabled on the test patterns.


All of these are kinda sad compared to the Hisense dual panel (U9E) in China, which measures 400,000:1 and is over 500 nits.

Translate to english... (right click in chrome, or answer yes when it pops up)

http://baijiahao.baidu.com/s?id=1639...=spider&for=pc

Thanks. I've recently become more interested in this stat, Native Contrast Ratio. Manufacturers are preferencing IPS and MVA panels. I don't have a wide angle need or a dungeon for viewing, and I like HDR, so I'm interested in reasonably high ratio in VA LED LCD TVs.

Some VA NCR compiled from rtings: Samsung Q70R, 7250:1; Vizio P-Series Quantum 2018, 6084:1; Hisense HF9, 6006:1; TCL 6-series/R617 2018, 5182:1; Sony X900F, 5089:1; Sony X950G 65", 4421:1.

Samsung MVA NCR 2019 Qs: Q80R, 3681:1; Q90R, 3249:1; Q900R, 1630:1.

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post #30 of 36 Old 10-10-2019, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
I did not, if that could scale up it'd be cool. But, to compete with current LED's nit levels, it's going to be much higher than 300 watts if it's linear (or worse, logarithmic). Also, I don't think 600 nits even keeps up with OLED, so...it's cool, but, needs work.

That said, don't get me wrong -- I'm glad someone is putting the work in! I would buy an OLED, but my family's usage would have me perpetually awaiting a sticky channel logo, lol.
300 watts peak for a 65" panel is not bad. On par with other FALD sets of the same size maybe ~15% more; depends on the set and the material being viewed. A lot depends on what it is you are measuring... is this a APL? (Average picture level I.E. full screen?). How far from the screen was it measured? Was it a test image or real video?

The newer 75" Samsung and Sony are all close to 650+ watts, pushing 2000 nits! With actual HDR video.

A lot of this is difficult to cross compare. The same pattern needs to be used on both sets; so unfortunately we will need to wait for some actual testing which can be compared A<->B. While I expect it to be higher, I don't expect it to be a exponentially higher. And I expect it to get better as they refine the tech.

I'll be mighty impressed if Hisense releases the ULED XD in the US next year with all of the claimed specs... 1000 nits, with 100% DCI/p3 coverage with a dual panel that can do 300,000:1 contrast native. If such a thing materializes even if it is 300-600 watts for 65" I won't care.
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Last edited by SiGGy; 10-10-2019 at 11:37 AM.
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