The "best" non-OLED TVs (for those worried about burn-in; NO OLED TALK) - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 22 Old 12-03-2019, 11:11 PM - Thread Starter
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The "best" non-OLED TVs (for those worried about burn-in; NO OLED TALK)

PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD: To discuss and offer suggestions and recommendations for the "best" TVs out right now that are not OLED TVs and therefore not susceptible to burn-in (or the best OLED alternatives out right now). "Best" meaning TVs that mainly rate highly in deep black levels, contrast ratio, shadow detail, and "dark scene in a dark room" performance, as well as other characteristics critical to overall image quality.


RULES OF THIS THREAD: NO OLED TALK!! This thread is not for discussing how great or how bad OLED is, or how it's better/worse than another TV or technology. There are plenty of other active threads for that. NO BURN-IN TALK!! TVs mentioned here should not be susceptible to burn-in so no need to discuss burn-in here beyond this post. There already exists a Master OLED burn-in and image retention thread here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...ad-photos.html



WHO THIS THREAD IS INTENDED TO HELP: Anyone who is looking for the best image quality available in a TV that is not susceptible to burn-in. If you're concerned that your viewing habits may cause burn-in or uniformity issues down the road with an OLED TV, but still want the best image quality otherwise possible, then this thread is for you.



TL;DR (for more background why I started this thread):


It seems almost all the active threads here are about OLED, even though this is also a "Flat Panels General" forum. I decided to start this thread because (1) I don't see an active one like it and (2) I thought it would be good to have a thread where members can discuss the "best" OLED TV alternatives, now, and in the future. The main advantages of OLED are clear: (1) unbeatable contrast ratio due to the ability to display true black pixels next to pure white pixels and (2) currently unbeatable viewing angles (although with some mild color/contrast shift). In layman's terms, OLED currently offers the best image quality available. However, OLED has one main disadvantage that most other current display technologies (mostly commonly LED backlit LCD) do not: the propensity for parts of an image to permanently "burn-in" or stick if you watch too much of the same thing over time (like news or other TV channels with static logos/banners). By extension, OLED displays can lose their uniformity over time, where parts of the screen will be dimmer (more worn out) than other parts. For example, if you watch news or talk shows where a person's face is always in the center of the screen, over time, that area will wear out faster than the rest of the screen, resulting in the center of the screen becoming dimmer than the rest. This may take years to happen, depending on how much you watch, but it will happen. Rtings.com accelerated OLED burn-in tests have proven this to be the case. And unfortunately, these issues are not covered by OLED manufacturers' warranties (although they may make exceptions at times). For these reasons, I've started this thread so that anyone looking for the best image quality in a TV that is not susceptible to burn-in, has a thread that will hopefully, have some useful information and suggestions.


With that said, I'll open it up by mentioning a TV that Rtings.com has described as an "LED ALTERNATIVE FOR A DARK ROOM" in my next post...

LG OLED65B6P
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post #2 of 22 Old 12-03-2019, 11:15 PM
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^I think the best High-end LCD out there comparable to Oled would be the samsung Q90...good viewing angles and a plethora of sizes...seems most owners are happy with it.
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post #3 of 22 Old 12-03-2019, 11:19 PM - Thread Starter
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... continuing from my first post, what do you guys think about this as the current best OLED alternative?


https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/vi...quantum-x-2019


Rtings gives it very high praise saying "dark room performance is remarkable" as well as "if you're concerned about burn-in risk and want the best LED TV for watching HDR movies in a dark room, then get the Vizio P Series Quantum X 2019."


And the price is not bad either. Does anyone own this TV or seen it first hand? I've not seen a thread for it or seen it mentioned much/at all here on AVS. Do you think it's currently the best or one of the best OLED alternatives out there? If not, what's better and why?

LG OLED65B6P
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post #4 of 22 Old 12-03-2019, 11:30 PM - Thread Starter
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^I think the best High-end LCD out there comparable to Oled would be the samsung Q90...good viewing angles and a plethora of sizes...seems most owners are happy with it.
You may be right, but factor in price and the Vizio P Quantum X being $800 cheaper in a 65", maybe the Vizio is the better option for some. Rtings did mention that the Vizio has poor viewing angles, so the $800 more for the Q90 might be worth it for some. The Samsung Q80 seems like it should be mentioned in this thread even with the fewer local dimming zones vs the Q90.
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post #5 of 22 Old 12-03-2019, 11:31 PM
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^yeah...I think I would be cautious though with the Vizio as those sets have been plagued with terrible dse and other issues...I believe their is a member who went through at least 5 or 6 sets. It's a gamble of course...besides those issues the Vizio is still a viable alternative because of its price. The Sammie will obviously have more features and Tizen is nice to work with.
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post #6 of 22 Old 12-03-2019, 11:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Cam1977 View Post
^yeah...I think I would be cautious though with the Vizio as those sets have been plagued with terrible dse and other issues...I believe their is a member who went through at least 5 or 6 sets. It's a gamble of course...besides those issues the Vizio is still a viable alternative because of its price. The Sammie will obviously have more features and Tizen is nice to work with.
Are you referring to the Vizio Quantum X specifically having DSE issues or Vizios in general? I know they had issues in the past, but didn't hear that it was a major issue in recent years.



If you scroll down the page https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/vi...quantum-x-2019 to the end where they compare it against other TVs, the comparison vs the Q90 is interesting. Q90 has much better viewing angles, better gradient handling, but slightly worse contrast. The Quantum X is a bit brighter with much wider color gamut. Q90 has better features for gamers. For mostly movie watchers who don't view off center, the Quantum X is hard to beat.

LG OLED65B6P
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post #7 of 22 Old 12-03-2019, 11:51 PM
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^yes the 2019 model...PQX I believe. Yeah it's tough when making this kind of decision especially when you compare prices. These Vizios are supercharged a bit to use a car term but have some issues videophiles might get annoyed at, I guess if I had to make that choice though I would go with the Q90, especially since it comes in 82. I have nothing against Vizio, I had a 2017 Vizio P series and loved it, I ended up selling it because I wanted a larger set at the time. I own a 2018 75Q8FN, and besides the colors looking a bit too cartoony, I like it enough that if I didn't have my 77C8 in the cave that's where the Q8fn would be.

Another thing, to keep in mind in regards to Oled alternatives is Mini Led...interesting to see where that goes.

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The Samsung Q90R and Q80R look very close to oled in terms of contrast in a bright viewing environment, unless the scenes you're comparing are starry skies. And I was a bit surprised to see how well they performed, with all the talk I read on the oled forums, that no lcd comes close to an oled. These models did to my eyes for the most part, and with two advantages as well. In bright day time scenes, the Q90R looked more 'lively' and it had way better anti reflection in the bright viewing environment, the oled comparatively looked like a mirror.
I think these models might be samsung's best yet. So to answer the question, the best non oled tv's would be samsung Q90R and Q80R if you're not watching in a completely dark environment. I would have added the sony Z9D here, but it's been discontinued and no longer available so it's not an option, I would not add any of the subsequently released sony lcd's. The other alternative to oled if your space allowed to accomodate a projector and large screen would be the JVC 4K e shift or native 4K projectors.
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In order to find the best alternative you have to be willing to make some sacrifices so it depends on what is important to you. If you choose the Sony 950g you will get the best color accuracy out of the box, deep blacks and excellent shadow details but you will have blooming. If you choose Samsung q90 you will have less color accuracy out of the box, deep blacks and less blooming but the price you pay for that is less shadow details.
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There's really only three choices.

Samsung Q90/ Q900 (if you're feeling frisky)
Vizio P Quantum X
TCL 8 Series MiniLED

That's pretty much it in terms of LCDs (that are available now and easily obtainable) that have really good contrast. They each have a few issues.

Q90, wide viewing angle coating is great for... wide angle viewing, but not so great contrast and pixel clarity. Q90 has good contrast for an LCD in spite of this, however, but not as good as the Q9F that precedes it, most likely due to the wide angle layer. Does have best in class reflection handling. Suffers from the usual aggressive Samsung black crush.

Vizio Quantum X is a great bargain, and super bright. Has great contrast for a FALD and pretty good algorithm for keeping shadow detail. Vizio still has QC issues, though, and sluggish OS.

TCL 8 Series. Best contrast of any FALD. Also super bright. Have to see about QC. Not a lot of owners yet. Follows Samsung's lead on black crush. Some EOTF issues currently that may get ironed out with FW.

There are other things to get into, like price and, if you're a gamer like me, gaming features, but this is pretty much what there is to work with for alternatives.
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Hard to recommend Samsung with no Dolby Vision and terrible accuracy and black crush. Hard to recommend budget brands like TCL and Vizio for quality issues and lack of polish while in action with real world content. I know most of you guys follow rtings benchmarks like they are definitive rankings and the bible and just lay out the nits, but if you see the 950G in person with cinema settings, you will be more impressed than the others (contrast ratio be damned). The black levels are still inky and deep.

When we talk quality, most of you guys just look at nits, but forget about faithful EOTF, motion handling, processing, upscaling etc.
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If you like the deep blacks and beautiful HDR contrast of OLEDs, but without the burn in risk, I would stay away from the Sony 950. In person, I saw it playing the same content next to Sony’s A9 and there was no comparison: Sony’s FALD tuning of the 950 was very obviously favoring boosting shadow detail by running the local dimming brighter, which caused very bad blooming effects, and obviously inferior black levels.

To me subjectively, I found the Q90 to look much more OLED-like in its black levels and HDR appearance. In fact, in the showroom I could barely tell much of a difference. And indeed, it’s probably better than OLED in a brightly lit room. On the downside vs Sony, the Samsung achieves this by losing out on some shadow detail. But that’s just the way it is, since you can’t get both shadow detail and perfect blacks in a non-OLED TV.

So which style you choose is a matter of preference. IMO subjectively, the Q90 is much closer to looking like an OLED without actually being one (if that’s what you want, as I did), which is why I bought it.
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Good discussion so far. Looks like the Samsung Q90 is getting the most mentions for best OLED alternative currently on the market. And the Vizio Quantum X being the best value alternative to OLED. The TCL 8 series mini-LED is a recent release and sounds intriguing. I'm only finding out about it now.


There was some mention that one must trade deeper blacks for some shadow detail. This tradeoff isn't exclusive to LED/LCD TVs, as OLEDs have the same issue (at least my B6 does, as do newer ones I've read about). Would love a TV that can achieve true black with loads of shadow detail and little to no noise/artifacts near black. Maybe micro-LED will be able to do just that??

LG OLED65B6P
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Biggest problem with samsung is not contrast or shadow detail, it's the lack of dolby vision. Bring out a Q90 or Q80 next year with dolby vision and I would buy one. I need another tv and a htpc monitor, these tv's can do both jobs well but dolby vision is a definite consideration for me. If they stay the course, I could look into buying panasonic next year. All their tv's from this year and surely next year now support dolby vision. Panasonic lcd's are not as good in contrast and color as Q90 but good enough and you get dolby vision.
If and when samsung brings out QD-OLEDS in few years and they still refuse to support dolby vision, their oleds will be shunned by many people.
Lets not see some samsung junkie coming to defense and falsely saying hdr10 looks the same as dolby vision.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no1special View Post
Good discussion so far. Looks like the Samsung Q90 is getting the most mentions for best OLED alternative currently on the market. And the Vizio Quantum X being the best value alternative to OLED. The TCL 8 series mini-LED is a recent release and sounds intriguing. I'm only finding out about it now.


There was some mention that one must trade deeper blacks for some shadow detail. This tradeoff isn't exclusive to LED/LCD TVs, as OLEDs have the same issue (at least my B6 does, as do newer ones I've read about). Would love a TV that can achieve true black with loads of shadow detail and little to no noise/artifacts near black. Maybe micro-LED will be able to do just that??
It is true that older OLEDs were making a tradeoffs by overdarkening shadow regions to hide the quantization posterization artifacts they suffered from, which may seem similar to Samsung preferring to overdarken the backlight to avoid excessive bloom — but the dark flattening here was done for two completely different reasons (and in different ways): For Samsung, they were trying to avoid bloom, and for LG, they were trying to hide their inferior deposterization / dithering / dequantization algorithms. LGs problem has nothing to do with the physical panel as far as I know, and was simply a software algorithm deficiency. Samsung on the other hand is trying to choose a tradeoff that MUST be made inherently due to the hardware design of the FALD panel.

Since LG’s problem was not an inherent problem in the panel, LG has since fixed this with a new processor chip: Now they have just about the best shadow detail you’ll find anywhere, while simultaneously having perfect blacks and infinite contrast radio. No LCD TV can do that, but an OLED can and does.

But to return to the topic of this thread: Which non-OLED comes closest? I just looked up this TCL “mini LED” and this does indeed sound like the next best competitor. It has 25,000 dimmable zones, vs 450 from the Samsung Q90. That’s still not going to have pixel-perfect HDR like an OLED (where for 4K has 33 million dimmable “zones”) but it should come even closer than the Samsung Q90 unless they mess up their algorithms (which is totally possible — just look at the example of older LG OLEDs I mentioned above).

Beyond that, I don’t know how well it’ll perform, but this certainly seems like the right direction from the industry.

Honestly, I never understood why TV makers didn’t just do this immediately from the start rather than large dimming zones, since LEDs of this size have always been cheap.

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The TCL 8 series is terrible in action. The mini LEDs is the right idea, but its processing and backlight algorithm are so inferior to Sony and even Samsung. You can see the dimming in action, where a small white ball moving across the screen looks like a golf ball as the mini LEDs flicker on and off. There have been several reviews that noticed that and called it out.

Samsung Q90 (calibrated because ootb is bad for videophiles), maybe Q80, and Sony 950G are the only real contenders. I would say the 85" Z9G also but that's likely out of our price range at $12k. But again, it's really hard to recommend Samsung with no Dolby Vision support so it is a dilemma. I have seen the 950G in person and was allowed to play with the settings to make them more accurate and movie mode...the blooming is vastly over exaggerated, mostly from people reading benchmarks or comparing them to OLED. I'd rather take proper EOTF over crush or overblown midtones.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by echopraxia View Post
It is true that older OLEDs were making a tradeoffs by overdarkening shadow regions to hide the quantization posterization artifacts they suffered from, which may seem similar to Samsung preferring to overdarken the backlight to avoid excessive bloom — but the dark flattening here was done for two completely different reasons (and in different ways): For Samsung, they were trying to avoid bloom, and for LG, they were trying to hide their inferior deposterization / dithering / dequantization algorithms. LGs problem has nothing to do with the physical panel as far as I know, and was simply a software algorithm deficiency. Samsung on the other hand is trying to choose a tradeoff that MUST be made inherently due to the hardware design of the FALD panel.

Since LG’s problem was not an inherent problem in the panel, LG has since fixed this with a new processor chip: Now they have just about the best shadow detail you’ll find anywhere, while simultaneously having perfect blacks and infinite contrast radio. No LCD TV can do that, but an OLED can and does.

But to return to the topic of this thread: Which non-OLED comes closest? I just looked up this TCL “mini LED” and this does indeed sound like the next best competitor. It has 25,000 dimmable zones, vs 450 from the Samsung Q90. That’s still not going to have pixel-perfect HDR like an OLED (where for 4K has 33 million dimmable “zones”) but it should come even closer than the Samsung Q90 unless they mess up their algorithms (which is totally possible — just look at the example of older LG OLEDs I mentioned above).

Beyond that, I don’t know how well it’ll perform, but this certainly seems like the right direction from the industry.

Honestly, I never understood why TV makers didn’t just do this immediately from the start rather than large dimming zones, since LEDs of this size have always been cheap.
The TCL 8 Series doesn't actually have that many zones. The 65" has about 15k Mini LEDs, and the 75" has 25k Mini LEDs, which is way more than the conventional FALD LCD, but TCL is not at the stage in their chip/ algorithm development where they can have them all addressable yet. Roadmap says in 2022 IIRC. Right now, the 65" has around 700 zones (I think) and the 75" has just under 1000. Still more than the Q90 or any other FALD save for the 100" Z9D, but no where near 25K yet.

It still has, by far, the highest measured contrast of any LCD available. The large amount of densely packed Mini LEDs should also greatly improve screen uniformity in the case of DSE and dark corners. At least in theory. Have to see how well they QC-ed all those Mini LEDs, though.

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Biggest problem with samsung is not contrast or shadow detail, it's the lack of dolby vision(and it actually sticks out too). Bring out a Q90 or Q80 next year with dolby vision and I would buy one. I need another tv and a htpc monitor, these tv's can do both jobs well but dolby vision is a definite consideration for me. If they stay the course, I could look into buying panasonic next year. All their tv's from this year and surely next year now support dolby vision. Panasonic lcd's are not as good in contrast and color as Q90 but good enough and you get dolby vision.
If and when samsung brings out QD-OLEDS in few years and they still refuse to support dolby vision, their oleds will be shunned by many people.
Lets not see some samsung junkie coming to defense and falsely saying hdr10 looks the same as dolby vision.
The biggest difference between hdr10 and Dolby Vision is that skin tones are better on Dolby Vision. Otherwise, you need them side by side to tell the difference on high end tvs.

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I saw the TCL mini led yesterday at Best Buy. They were only playing garbage Best Buy advertisements though. It was pretty bright, vibrant and colorful. Couldn't see much of the blacks but looked good overall. Heard it has crush and needs to have contrast enhancer on to fix the crush and overall makes it better to hang with the oled. A guy on YouTube had it side by side with 1 if his oleds.

Nice looking TV, but probably needs to be a little bit cheaper.

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Is this thread like "the first rule about Fight Club is you don't talk about Fight Club?" LOL. I mean okay it's about people afraid of burn-in but we can't talk about burn-in. It's for people that don't want OLED, but you can't talk about OLED.


Well okay then now that we can't talk about these things I'll just say I'm happy with my Z9D lol. Also, if I were buying today, I'd be seriously considering the TCL 8-series. No the dimming algorithm/speed/action (whatever you want to call it) isn't the absolute best but the number of zones pretty much is. Thing I've learned about TVs is, there's always some trade-off, you're never going to get a perfect TV tech that "has it all". Eventhough "the coming of OLED" was once heralded as such, it really isn't the end-all and be-all it was made out to be years prior to it becoming a mainstream tech. But oops I'm not supposed to talk about OLED, sorry!
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Just throwing my hat into the ring. Q90 or Z9D.

Quote:
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Good discussion so far. Looks like the Samsung Q90 is getting the most mentions for best OLED alternative currently on the market. And the Vizio Quantum X being the best value alternative to OLED. The TCL 8 series mini-LED is a recent release and sounds intriguing. I'm only finding out about it now.


There was some mention that one must trade deeper blacks for some shadow detail. This tradeoff isn't exclusive to LED/LCD TVs, as OLEDs have the same issue (at least my B6 does, as do newer ones I've read about). Would love a TV that can achieve true black with loads of shadow detail and little to no noise/artifacts near black. Maybe micro-LED will be able to do just that??
Microled will be the future imho. It really does rival oled without any chance of burn in. The issue comes from TCL being the only one making it right now. As other have mentioned low end companies just have to much quality control. While you spend vastly less purchasing the tv they're not meant to last. I've got tons of Sony tvs and i've had tvs from almost all brands. Cheaper models die after years where as i've got some Sony tvs that are pushing over 20 years now without issue. When I spend a ton of money on a product I want it to be a lifetime product. Something that wont ever break and last me forever. The only reason I want to get rid of it is to replace it with something better and normally larger.

Last edited by Clesarie; Today at 01:49 PM.
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Reply LCD Flat Panel Displays

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