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post #1 of 16 Old 12-09-2019, 02:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Question About Refresh Rate

I'm a little confused in this area. Let's say I own a Samsung Q90 that has a native refresh rate of 120hz. When watching a movie, I would like the content to displayed in its native form, usually 24 fps. For TV shows, 30fps and video games either 30fps or 60fps, depending on the game and console. Is there a setting on this TV and other TVs to automatically adjust the refresh rate to the content that is being viewed? Or do you need to manually change every time you switch between content?
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post #2 of 16 Old 12-09-2019, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by DanielPlainv1ew View Post
I'm a little confused in this area. Let's say I own a Samsung Q90 that has a native refresh rate of 120hz. When watching a movie, I would like the content to displayed in its native form, usually 24 fps. For TV shows, 30fps and video games either 30fps or 60fps, depending on the game and console. Is there a setting on this TV and other TVs to automatically adjust the refresh rate to the content that is being viewed? Or do you need to manually change every time you switch between content?
The answer to this can be quite complicated, but assuming that your source device outputs at the content framerate there isn't much you have to adjust on the display. On the Q90 keep the motion settings at either 0 or off and you're pretty much good to go.

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post #3 of 16 Old 12-09-2019, 08:11 PM
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You want 120hz, just keep motion settings off and make sure your devices output at their native frames per second.

24, 30, and 60 are all divisible into 120. A 60hz refresh rate would judder with 24p content. A lower refresh rate would flicker.

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post #4 of 16 Old 12-11-2019, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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You want 120hz, just keep motion settings off and make sure your devices output at their native frames per second.

24, 30, and 60 are all divisible into 120. A 60hz refresh rate would judder with 24p content. A lower refresh rate would flicker.

I don't want 120hz if the content is 24 native. That's my question - can't the TV just match the content automatically?
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post #5 of 16 Old 12-11-2019, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
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The answer to this can be quite complicated, but assuming that your source device outputs at the content framerate there isn't much you have to adjust on the display. On the Q90 keep the motion settings at either 0 or off and you're pretty much good to go.
Assuming I'm not connecting a PC, there is no native content over 60hz, right? So what is the point of a 120hz panel? Even with a 60hz panel, is the TV smart enough to automatically switch between 60hz content (video games) and 24fps content (movies) without manually switching it every time?
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post #6 of 16 Old 12-11-2019, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by DanielPlainv1ew View Post
I don't want 120hz if the content is 24 native. That's my question - can't the TV just match the content automatically?
True 24hz would be unwatchable on a tv. The flicker would be annoying. That's why tv's are mostly 120hz. It produces perfect 5:5 cadence with 24hz, and there will be no flicker, and motion is smoother. 240hz would be even better and would produce 10:10 cadence.
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post #7 of 16 Old 12-11-2019, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
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True 24hz would be unwatchable on a tv. The flicker would be annoying. That's why tv's are mostly 120hz. It produces perfect 5:5 cadence with 24hz, and there will be no flicker, and motion is smoother. 240hz would be even better and would produce 10:10 cadence.
24hz is the same as 24fps, right? I don't see why that would be unwatchable. 240hz is like watching video (soap opera effect, right?), not film, which I don't want unless I'm playing video games or watching sports.
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post #8 of 16 Old 12-11-2019, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by DanielPlainv1ew View Post
24hz is the same as 24fps, right? I don't see why that would be unwatchable. 240hz is like watching video (soap opera effect, right?), not film, which I don't want unless I'm playing video games or watching sports.
They don't make 24hz tv's. The flicker would be horrible, and 60fps tv shows and sports would be a nightmare on it. The panel is 120hz. You can't make a 120hz panel 24hz. The panel takes 24fps and uses 5:5 cadence 120/24=5. And you are still watching it at 24 fps.

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post #9 of 16 Old 12-11-2019, 01:53 PM
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The soap opera effect comes from motion interpolation, not from running at 120 hz.
Disable interpolation and the display will show each 24p frame five times, as-is.

If you really want a cinema effect, consider trying "black frame insertion", especially if your display supports that natively. (Or you can transcode movies to include black frames using AVISynth or similar, and maybe madvr or something like that can also help. See https://www.testufo.com/blackframes for a test.)

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post #10 of 16 Old 12-11-2019, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by DanielPlainv1ew View Post
I don't want 120hz if the content is 24 native. That's my question - can't the TV just match the content automatically?

I didn't see an easy to understand answer below, so, an explainer:
Frame rate and Refresh rate are separate. I understand your worry that the TV will modify the original content but rest assured, with motion processing disabled, how it works is as follows:
  1. The refresh rate is the frequency at which the panel can change the image, measured in times per second(HZ for hertz)
  2. Frame rate is the number of frames that constitute a second of a given input, measured in frames per second(fps)
  3. Third confusing factor that some people threw in above is the backlight dimming frequency, also measured in HZ, and this is the rate at which the backlight of the TV flickers. Usually somewhere between 120hz and 960hz. Let's put this aside for now.


Even if you show a static photograph on the TV, there is a refresh cycle at 60/120hz, just without any changes. Imagine it as 60 or 120 copies of the same image per second but without any flicker or gap in between them. It doesn't matter what refresh rate you have, there would be no flicker. (This is where some people conflated the backlight dimming frequency in saying there would be flicker at 24hz)


Onto moving images, let's take a 30fps(Frame Rate) example. On a 60hz display, the display would show each frame for 2(60/30=2) refresh cycles, and on a 120hz display, each frame would stay on the screen for 4(120/30=4) refresh cycles. As you can see, it all fits neatly, and there is no need to modify the original content to fit the panel refresh rate, and you can enjoy your TV show at the original frame rate it was created.


It gets a bit tricky with 24fps. On a 120hz display, all is dandy, 120/24=5, so similar to above, we just keep image on display for 5 cycles and watch the movie as it was made, bob's your uncle. You are watching your content as-is. On a 60hz display however, There are only 60 slots in a second, 60/24=2.5. If we put each frame in 2 cycles like above, we have 48 and that leaves 12 empty slots, and if we put each frame into three cycles, that would make 72, not quite fitting in the slots we have. This is where Telecine/pulldown comes in, explained below.


On your question about changing settings, you don't have to change settings, your TV will figure it out. Your TV will do some magic when there is 24fps content delivered with 60p metadata (Netflix on most devices) as well, not all TVs do this. To remove judder in all sources and leave them in the original form, set Auto Motion Plus to 'Custom,' and Blur Reduction and Judder Reduction to '0'


Telecine/pulldown is nothing new, it has been around since we have been squeezing movies onto the TV format. It is an umbrella term for creative solutions of fitting 24 frames into containers that it doesn't evenly fit in. I will cover the easiest to understand version. Instead of fitting each frame into two refresh cycles, you alternate and put one frame into two, and one frame into three refresh cycles. If we take frame 1,2,3,4 for example, in 120hz it would be 1-1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2-2-3-3-3-3-3-4-4-4-4-4, in 60fps with telecine it is 1-1-1-2-2-3-3-3-4-4. Our brains adapt and mush together the minute difference better than it does judder.

You can look into it more here and learn about what happens when it doesn't fit. https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/motion/24p
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Last edited by whatsnewsisyphus; 12-11-2019 at 03:03 PM.
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post #11 of 16 Old 12-11-2019, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by DanielPlainv1ew View Post
I don't want 120hz if the content is 24 native. That's my question - can't the TV just match the content automatically?
I don't think you understand the difference between refresh rate and playback speed.
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post #12 of 16 Old 12-11-2019, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by whatsnewsisyphus View Post
I didn't see an easy to understand answer below, so, an explainer:
Frame rate and Refresh rate are separate. I understand your worry that the TV will modify the original content but rest assured, with motion processing disabled, how it works is as follows:
  1. The refresh rate is the frequency at which the panel can change the image, measured in times per second(HZ for hertz)
  2. Frame rate is the number of frames that constitute a second of a given input, measured in frames per second(fps)
  3. Third confusing factor that some people threw in above is the backlight dimming frequency, also measured in HZ, and this is the rate at which the backlight of the TV flickers. Usually somewhere between 120hz and 960hz. Let's put this aside for now.


Even if you show a static photograph on the TV, there is a refresh cycle at 60/120hz, just without any changes. Imagine it as 60 or 120 copies of the same image per second but without any flicker or gap in between them. It doesn't matter what refresh rate you have, there would be no flicker. (This is where some people conflated the backlight dimming frequency in saying there would be flicker at 24hz)


Onto moving images, let's take a 30fps(Frame Rate) example. On a 60hz display, the display would show each frame for 2 refresh cycles, and on a 120hz display, each frame would stay on the screen for 4 refresh cycles. As you can see, it all fits neatly, and there is no need to modify the original content to fit the panel refresh rate, and you can enjoy your TV show at the original frame rate it was created.


It gets a bit tricky with 24fps. On a 120hz display, all is dandy, 120/24=5, so similar to above, we just keep image on display for 5 cycles and watch the movie as it was made, bob's your uncle. You are watching your content as-is. On a 60hz display however, There are only 60 slots in a second, 60/24=2.5. If we put each frame in 2 cycles like above, we have 48 and that leaves 12 empty slots, and if we put each frame into three cycles, that would make 72, not quite fitting in the slots we have. This is where Telecine/pulldown comes in, explained below.


On your question about changing settings, you don't have to change settings, your TV will figure it out. Your TV will do some magic when there is 24fps content delivered with 60p metadata (Netflix on most devices) as well, not all TVs do this. To remove judder in all sources and leave them in the original form, set Auto Motion Plus to 'Custom,' and Blur Reduction and Judder Reduction to '0'


Telecine/pulldown is nothing new, it has been around since we have been squeezing movies onto the TV format. It is an umbrella term for creative solutions of fitting 24 frames into containers that it doesn't evenly fit in. I will cover the easiest to understand version. Instead of fitting each frame into two refresh cycles, you alternate and put one frame into two, and one frame into three refresh cycles. If we take frame 1,2,3,4 for example, in 120hz it would be 1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2-3-3-3-3-4-4-4-4, in 60fps with telecine it is 1-1-1-2-2-3-3-3-4-4. Our brains adapt and mush together the minute difference better than it does judder.

You can look into it more here and learn about what happens when it doesn't fit. https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/motion/24p
That's a very good explanation, thank you. I mostly understand now.
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post #13 of 16 Old 12-11-2019, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by whatsnewsisyphus View Post
Telecine/pulldown is nothing new, it has been around since we have been squeezing movies onto the TV format. It is an umbrella term for creative solutions of fitting 24 frames into containers that it doesn't evenly fit in. I will cover the easiest to understand version. Instead of fitting each frame into two refresh cycles, you alternate and put one frame into two, and one frame into three refresh cycles. If we take frame 1,2,3,4 for example, in 120hz it would be 1-1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2-2-3-3-3-3-3-4-4-4-4-4, in 60fps with telecine it is 1-1-1-2-2-3-3-3-4-4. Our brains adapt and mush together the minute difference better than it does judder.
I agree with this 100%. Long before I started reading forums, I found out I liked the 60 fps rendering of movies with 3:2 over the 24 fps rendering. I disable most "native" 24 fps feeds and go with the 60 fps option. I turn off frame rate matching on my Apple TV, as one example.
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post #14 of 16 Old 12-11-2019, 08:55 PM
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I agree with this 100%. Long before I started reading forums, I found out I liked the 60 fps rendering of movies with 3:2 over the 24 fps rendering. I disable most "native" 24 fps feeds and go with the 60 fps option. I turn off frame rate matching on my Apple TV, as one example.
There might be some misunderstanding, most TVs better handle 24fps (frame matched) in 3:2. If you go with 24fps over 60p signal than TVs like Vizios cannot handle it, and for some others it's a toss. Maybe you actually prefer judder to pulldown somehow.
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post #15 of 16 Old 12-11-2019, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by whatsnewsisyphus View Post
There might be some misunderstanding, most TVs better handle 24fps (frame matched) in 3:2. If you go with 24fps over 60p signal than TVs like Vizios cannot handle it, and for some others it's a toss. Maybe you actually prefer judder to pulldown somehow.
I should have clarified. I don't like the motion smoothing most tvs put on 24 fps feeds, especially the 60 hz panels, and I don't like judder. I prefer the 3:2 cadence.
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post #16 of 16 Old 12-11-2019, 09:07 PM
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I should have clarified. I don't like the motion smoothing most tvs put on 24 fps feeds, especially the 60 hz panels, and I don't like judder. I prefer the 3:2 cadence.
In that case, you would be better off turning frame rate matching on so that the tv gets 24fps in a 24p header and does 3:2 appropriately, generally speaking anyways.
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