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post #1 of 21 Old 12-13-2019, 06:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Buying a 4k TV without Dolby Vision

Do you guys think it would be a mistake to buy a 4k TV without Dolby Vision ? If yes, why ?

I've been thinking of the Samsung 75" Q70.

Thanks.
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post #2 of 21 Old 12-13-2019, 06:46 PM
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It's really not a huge deal. HDR10 looks nearly the same in 99% of content. Vincent at HDTV Test has done a few comparison videos. Only by carefully searching the content, pausing the video, and looking deeply into the screen can differences be seen. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to have it, but going with a larger screen is a much better choice than a smaller one without it. (I just got a 82" Q70R )
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post #3 of 21 Old 12-13-2019, 06:48 PM
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Given no Samsung TV has DV, don't think you really have a choice if you're buying Samsung. Q70R is a higher-end TV as well, so it's not exactly cheap. On cheaper TVs it's never even that big a deal because a lot of lower-end TVs don't even get bright enough for HDR so it's not really much of a loss.



For a higher end set that does reproduce HDR well, then yeah it would be nice to have DV but again Samsung ain't playing Dolby's game it seems so no choice there unless you want to go with Sony, LG, or possibly Vizio instead (if we're talking about sticking with "first tier" brands, of which Vizio might have fallen off that train now too).


Samsung does support HDR10+, where many other sets don't, so it does depend on the content you're going to feed it as well. Technically speaking DV is probably the superior HDR format but I don't think it's hugely better so as to mean it's going to be a make-it-or-break-it reason for not buying a certain set. Mind you personally I wouldn't buy Samsung but not really because they don't support DV.



Don't overthink it. If your heart is set on the Q70R for everything other than DV, might as well just forego DV as it's not gonna be the end-all and be-all either.
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post #4 of 21 Old 12-13-2019, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post
Do you guys think it would be a mistake to buy a 4k TV without Dolby Vision ? If yes, why ?

Nope! I think you'll be fine. Is DV the superior HDR format? Dunno. Lots of folks think it is better than HDR10, but marginally. At this point, I don't think you should be overly concerned unless this is the last TV you're ever gonna buy....

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post #5 of 21 Old 12-13-2019, 06:59 PM
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You can find a cheaper tv with Dolby vision that is competitive to the q70r. So there is that. But if your heart is really set on it get the q70.
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post #6 of 21 Old 12-13-2019, 07:05 PM
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I won't buy a 4k tv without dolby vision, panasonic wised up this year and started supporting dv, samsung did not. Hdr10+ has nothing compared to DV in terms of content availibility. And hdr10+ is technically inferior because it relies on 10 bit grading, DV can do upto 12 bit.
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post #7 of 21 Old 12-13-2019, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post
Do you guys think it would be a mistake to buy a 4k TV without Dolby Vision ? If yes, why ?

I've been thinking of the Samsung 75" Q70.

Thanks.
It's not a huge deal. DV is more conservative in preserving super bright highlights, whereas HDR10 may blow them out. But unless you were watching both side by side to compare, you won't notice the difference.

Blu ray players will strip the DV layer off the disc for your tv, and Apple TV makes their own DV to HDR conversion. Roku doesn't support DV. You can get all the same content whether it's mastered in DV or not, so no worries there.
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post #8 of 21 Old 12-13-2019, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Rysa_105 View Post
I won't buy a 4k tv without dolby vision, panasonic wised up this year and started supporting dv, samsung did not. Hdr10+ has nothing compared to DV in terms of content availibility. And hdr10+ is technically inferior because it relies on 10 bit grading, DV can do upto 12 bit.
Indeed but this is all "on paper" types of superiority. In reality/in real-world use it's not a huge difference. Furthermore no mainstream panels are capable of 12-bit either, so that advantage is currently moot as well. All the OLEDs, the 8K TVs, etc. the C9, A9F, Q900R, Z9G, et al--they're all 10-bit panels.



In reality, Samsung still sells a crap ton of TVs, is one of the market leaders, and is an established first-tier TV maker. Now personally I don't even like Samsung, but my dislike of them doesn't change any of these facts. Their lower-end and lower-size offerings are nothing special and are largely overpriced (but Sony, LG, share the same characteristics) but their higher end stuff is all quite good, well reviewed, performs well in tests, and simply not having DV is not really a deal-breaker TBH. If it were, Samsung's sales would be in the toilet and clearly they are not. Q70R ain't cheap but at least you're getting a high-quality picture and performance at the price you pay, unlike lower-end offerings which are basically just overpriced underachievers with a high pricetag due to the Samsung badge.
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post #9 of 21 Old 12-13-2019, 07:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by yogi6807 View Post
You can find a cheaper tv with Dolby vision that is competitive to the q70r. So there is that. But if your heart is really set on it get the q70.
Such as what ? I'm also considering the TCL 75R615.

So does every UHD movie out there have a Dolby Vision version and a HDR10 version on the disc ? What about Netflix 4k streams ?

Thanks all.
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post #10 of 21 Old 12-13-2019, 07:48 PM
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Any disc with Dolby Vision will play in HDR10 on a non-DV enabled set.
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post #11 of 21 Old 12-14-2019, 12:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. And what about when streaming Netflix in 4k ?

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post #12 of 21 Old 12-14-2019, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post
Thanks. And what about when streaming Netflix in 4k ?
Same, it will play in HDR10. When I still had my C8 OLED I did a quick comparison of "Lost in Space" on Netflix, using the internal LG app and a Roku (which does not support DV). I couldn't see a difference...
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post #13 of 21 Old 12-14-2019, 12:27 PM
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As a person who just bought a Dolby Vision TV coming from Samsung without Dolby Vision and just HDR10+....


It's next to worthless. At least for now. There's not a significant enough difference to base a TV purchase on Dolby Vision.

As long as you have a stellar TV with great raw picture quality, that's all that matters. The Q70 is extremely good.
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post #14 of 21 Old 12-14-2019, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. How does the Q70 look when using subtitles ? I watched Vincent's review of the Q70 and it showed quite a bit of blooming/glow around the subtitles.
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post #15 of 21 Old 12-14-2019, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post
Thanks. How does the Q70 look when using subtitles ? I watched Vincent's review of the Q70 and it showed quite a bit of blooming/glow around the subtitles.
You're going to see some blooming in any LCD FALD TV, its the nature of the beast. And Samsung's FALD tends to favor towards black crush which lessens blooming. Sony's are more susceptible to blooming since their FALD favors shadow detail which intensifies blooming. But if blooming is an OCD for you, get an OLED.
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post #16 of 21 Old 12-14-2019, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post
Thanks. How does the Q70 look when using subtitles ? I watched Vincent's review of the Q70 and it showed quite a bit of blooming/glow around the subtitles.
As far as subtitles on the Q70 (or any Samsung TV) go, blooming is not even on the radar, compared to Samsung's infamous global dimming (see video at bottom). Samsung's solution to the traditional downsides of LCD—clouding, lackluster contrast and poor black levels—is to ensure that the moments where those issues are most obvious are made too dark for them to be apparent. This introduces two issues that are unique to Samsung: Darker scenes dimming visibly, sometimes to less than 20% of the screen's normal brightness (and yes, if that sounds like it would make some scenes hard to even decipher, believe me, it does). And: Anything that makes a quick change to the screen's overall brightness will also cause the global dimmer to let more like leak in, slowly, over the span of a second or two, only to have it slowly revert back to dark the moment those bright elements vanish.

In some models, this can be disabled outright if you gain access to the service menu. In others, such as my own Q70R, it can only be disabled for "PC Mode", and even then, this still often fails. For example, if I switch to a non-PC HDMI port and then back to PC, most of the time this temporarily makes the TV think it's not actually in PC Mode, which in turn means global dimming is active. Also, under no circumstance whatsoever can global dimming be turned off with a 24 Hz refresh rate, so there is no way to watch movies on the Q70R at their native framerate without the screen constantly darkening and brightening.

It's essentially a crime that review sites don't bother to underscore when a TV has dealbreaking flaws, because this is a killer that has caused many, many Samsung owners to swear off Samsung for good.

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post #17 of 21 Old 12-14-2019, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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That doesn't sound good. Would you recommend that someone who uses subtitles a lot avoids the Samsung Q70 ? I'm trying to decide between it and the Sony X900, and the TCL 75R615.

Thanks.
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post #18 of 21 Old 12-14-2019, 03:36 PM
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That doesn't sound good. Would you recommend that someone who uses subtitles a lot avoids the Samsung Q70 ? I'm trying to decide between it and the Sony X900, and the TCL 75R615.
In the majority of cases, the answer to the question has to be yes. If you've seen the video, you know what to expect. This phenomenon isn't something that occasionally happens and is sometimes annoying. It's ever-present.

You'd be happier with the Sony, which, as a bonus, also doesn't resort to crosshatch dithering, which is another issue I struggle with on my Q70R. I'd avoid the TCL because it uses subpixel crosshatch shenanigans (similar to, but far more nefarious than what Samsung does) that result in its 4K being basically a complete fraud. Here is a photo from Rtings. Look in particular at the "lock" icon in the address bar. What color was that supposed to be? Dark green? The TV has some pixels green and some pixels off. Don't put up with cheap shortcuts like this.

Even though I own a Samsung and have it in a state where I'm reasonably happy with it, there were only two reasons why I bought it. 1: It was somewhat cheaper than anything comparable from Sony. 2: It was claimed by Rtings that I could get Gsync working on it (this has proven to be false, though Rtings seems content to allow their misleading result to stay in their reviews). The only reason I'm keeping my Q70R is because I happen to intend to use it 100% as a PC monitor, and as long as I don't fiddle with the HDMI port or attempt to watch anything at 24Hz, I won't get the crosshatch dithering or the global dimming. But I am almost completely unique in this respect; 99.9% of owners of this TV will be unable to escape both phenomena.

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post #19 of 21 Old 12-14-2019, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Colmino View Post
As far as subtitles on the Q70 (or any Samsung TV) go, blooming is not even on the radar, compared to Samsung's infamous global dimming (see video at bottom). Samsung's solution to the traditional downsides of LCD—clouding, lackluster contrast and poor black levels—is to ensure that the moments where those issues are most obvious are made too dark for them to be apparent. This introduces two issues that are unique to Samsung: Darker scenes dimming visibly, sometimes to less than 20% of the screen's normal brightness (and yes, if that sounds like it would make some scenes hard to even decipher, believe me, it does). And: Anything that makes a quick change to the screen's overall brightness will also cause the global dimmer to let more like leak in, slowly, over the span of a second or two, only to have it slowly revert back to dark the moment those bright elements vanish.

It's essentially a crime that review sites don't bother to underscore when a TV has dealbreaking flaws, because this is a killer that has caused many, many Samsung owners to swear off Samsung for good.
I think Rtings mentions this issue in the Q70R Local Dimming section:

"Just like with all Samsung TVs that have local dimming, when subtitles appear you might notice distracting brightness changes in the scene."
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post #20 of 21 Old 12-14-2019, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post
That doesn't sound good. Would you recommend that someone who uses subtitles a lot avoids the Samsung Q70 ? I'm trying to decide between it and the Sony X900, and the TCL 75R615.



Thanks.
You probably don't want an LCD at all.
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post #21 of 21 Old 12-14-2019, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by VA_DaveB View Post
I think Rtings mentions this issue in the Q70R Local Dimming section:
They mention it but they do not highlight it, and, more importantly, they do not grade against it. Does it really matter that they mention they had to put the TV in PC Mode and make a tweak to the service menu in order to achieve that "9.4 Contrast", when almost nobody who buys this TV will be doing the same thing and they won't be provided with a remote that can accomplish it in the first place? In addition to the fact that it is not applicable to 24 Hz content? I want to steer away from labeling this as flatly misleading, but it truly is.

I mentioned dithering earlier. If you're using a Samsung, it's a near-guarantee that you're staring at dithering right now. Sony TVs don't do this. Rtings' policy? They make a point of not even bringing the topic up.
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