First Look: Samsung TVs at CES 2020 Including Q950TS - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 130 Old 01-11-2020, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by IronManFan View Post
Oh, I'm not arguing that DV on Samsung shouldn't happen. I truly wish it would -- I'd love DV on my Q9FN! I'm just guessing it won't.

The other factor beyond corporate pigheadedness is that as TVs get brighter and AI gets smarter at processing metadata, perhaps Dolby Vision may become less necessary? I have no idea. I'm sure more technical minds have better insight into that area.
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I've been saying this for a long time now. As it currently stands the biggest bang for your buck with Dolby Vision comes on lower brightness displays. It would certainly be nice if Samsung would stop fighting this and get on the same page as every other major manufacturer, but it's pretty easy to make the argument that on the super high luminance displays that Samsung targets at the higher end of their lineup the impact that Dolby Vision currently has is fairly negligible. I expect that will change eventually as display tech becomes more sophisticated but for now it is what it is.
One "criticism" of Dolby vision is that it does not result in uniformity between different TV's. Instead, by trying to "maximize" the capability of individual TVs, it presents a different picture on each model TV where it is implemented & this is distinctly different from different TVs all matching a mastering display.

Ideally, if a TV can fully handle an HDR10 master, then Dolby Vision is indeed not needed (presuming 1000-nit or 4000-nit peak, 10-bit mastering).

At CES 2020 I saw the Q950 match a Sony BVM-HX310 mastering display on scene after scene. Whether any other model can do this is not so clear but the 2020 flagship should have no need for Dolby Vision.

Having said all that, the reluctance of Samsung to add Dolby Vision is baffling. The company has in the past cited "cost" as a reason but that makes little sense when entry-level, bargain-basement TVs from second-tier brand names have Dolby Vision built in. I suspect it has more to do with Samsung not wanting to use technology from another company. But then look at TCL, which uses QLED, HDR10+, relies on Roku and also features Dolby Vision on its sets... it's a most successful formula!
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post #62 of 130 Old 01-11-2020, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
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Originally Posted by IronManFan View Post
Oh, I'm not arguing that DV on Samsung shouldn't happen. I truly wish it would -- I'd love DV on my Q9FN! I'm just guessing it won't.

The other factor beyond corporate pigheadedness is that as TVs get brighter and AI gets smarter at processing metadata, perhaps Dolby Vision may become less necessary? I have no idea. I'm sure more technical minds have better insight into that area.
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Originally Posted by Nillaz View Post
I've been saying this for a long time now. As it currently stands the biggest bang for your buck with Dolby Vision comes on lower brightness displays. It would certainly be nice if Samsung would stop fighting this and get on the same page as every other major manufacturer, but it's pretty easy to make the argument that on the super high luminance displays that Samsung targets at the higher end of their lineup the impact that Dolby Vision currently has is fairly negligible. I expect that will change eventually as display tech becomes more sophisticated but for now it is what it is.
One "criticism" of Dolby vision is that it does not result in uniformity between different TV's. Instead, by trying to "maximize" the capability of individual TVs, it presents a different picture on each model TV where it is implemented & this is distinctly different from different TVs all matching a mastering display.

Ideally, if a TV can fully handle an HDR10 master, then Dolby Vision is indeed not needed (presuming 1000-nit or 4000-nit peak, 10-bit mastering).

At CES 2020 I saw the Q950 match a Sony BVM-HX310 mastering display on scene after scene. Whether any other model can do this is not so clear but the 2020 flagship should have no need for Dolby Vision.
What about Dolby Vision ability to handle brightness, frame by frame compared HDR10
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post #63 of 130 Old 01-11-2020, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
Contrary to popular myths on AVS, Samsung is actually not losing sales by not having Dolby Vision. Their sales numbers are holding steady. The average Joe does not only not care about Dolby Vision, they don't know what it even is. Samsung sold more Qled tvs than oled tvs combined worldwide for 2019. It was like 6.5 million to 5 million.

No, that is the real AVS myth - that everyone else is uninformed and "stupid".

I don't know anyone that drops $3,000+ for a TV that doesn't do some research - on Consumer Reports and/or other websites - before they drop that kind of money on a TV.

Now, they may not know exactly what Dolby Vision does - but they do know that one TV has it and the other one doesn't.

They can see Dolby Vision on Blu-rays and Blu-ray players they buy, etc.

Not to mention Dolby Atmos now being everywhere and on everything.

And Dolby has a very good name, and name recognition, with laypeople.

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post #64 of 130 Old 01-11-2020, 10:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Brho0m13 View Post
What about Dolby Vision ability to handle brightness, frame by frame compared HDR10
Only needed if the TV has to tonemap. If a TV does not have to tonemap to fully, properly render a frame as it was mastered, then there's no need for that.

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post #65 of 130 Old 01-11-2020, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
Looks like the above article may be correct, Samsung is dropping the Zone count on the Q90T to 96, will be reserving the higher zone count for the 8k models. Good news is the 8K models will launch at substantially less than they did in 2019.
Meanwhile Vizio is increasing to 792 zones. Why is a discount brand running circles around Samsung?
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post #66 of 130 Old 01-11-2020, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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No, that is the real AVS myth - that everyone else is uninformed and "stupid"*.

I don't know anyone that drops $3,000+ for a TV that doesn't do some research - on Consumer Reports and/or other websites - before they drop that kind of money on a TV.**

Now, they may not know exactly what Dolby Vision does - but they do know that one TV has it and the other one doesn't.

They can see Dolby Vision on Blu-rays and Blu-ray players they buy, etc.

Not to mention Dolby Atmos now being everywhere and on everything.

And Dolby has a very good name, and name recognition, with laypeople.***
* Hahahahahaha. "Regular" people buy those discs and think they get those features regardless of what TV or audio system they play it on. That's no myth, I run into it every day.

** Sure but Samsung still somehow manages to come out #1

*** Mostly because laypeople have all seen Spinal Tap at some point in their lives. Unless they grew up int the cassette era.
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post #67 of 130 Old 01-11-2020, 10:23 AM
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Yeah, I don't get the 96 count thing... they did the same thing a few years ago when their flagship TV was edge-lit.

That was a disaster - the next year they were back to FALD for their flagship(s).

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post #68 of 130 Old 01-11-2020, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, I don't get the 96 count thing... they did the same thing a few years ago when their flagship TV was edge-lit.

That was a disaster - the next year they were back to FALD for their flagship(s).
It's 2020 and TCL has mini-LED FALD in its 6-Series along with QLED, HDR10+, Dolby Vision, VRR. No time to be resting on laurels.
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post #69 of 130 Old 01-11-2020, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Brho0m13 View Post
What about Dolby Vision ability to handle brightness, frame by frame compared HDR10
Only needed is the TV has to tonemap. If a TV does not have to tonemap to fully, properly render a frame as it was mastered, then there's no need for that.
When does the TV need tone mapping?

Can I suppose if the film has 1000 nits HDR10 And the TV is capable of outputing 1000 nits of brightness like the Q950 for example

Then the TV does not need to download tone mapping

While OLED does not reach 1000 nits, it needs Tone mapping

I don't think QLED TV is capable of taking out 4000 nits, but most HDR10 movies may be 1000 nits
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Originally Posted by Brho0m13 View Post
When does the TV need tone mapping?

Can I suppose if the film has 1000 nits HDR10 And the TV is capable of outputing 1000 nits of brightness like the Q950 for example... Then the TV does not need to download tone mapping

While OLED does not reach 1000 nits, it needs Tone mapping

I don't think QLED TV is capable of taking out 4000 nits, but most HDR10 movies may be 1000 nits
Yes.

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post #71 of 130 Old 01-11-2020, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Brho0m13 View Post
When does the TV need tone mapping?

Can I suppose if the film has 1000 nits HDR10 And the TV is capable of outputing 1000 nits of brightness like the Q950 for example... Then the TV does not need to download tone mapping

While OLED does not reach 1000 nits, it needs Tone mapping

I don't think QLED TV is capable of taking out 4000 nits, but most HDR10 movies may be 1000 nits
Yes.
thanks for the information
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
Looks like the above article may be correct, Samsung is dropping the Zone count on the Q90T to 96, will be reserving the higher zone count for the 8k models. Good news is the 8K models will launch at substantially less than they did in 2019.
Where did you hear the news Regarding the launch time
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Yeah, I don't get the 96 count thing... they did the same thing a few years ago when their flagship TV was edge-lit.

That was a disaster - the next year they were back to FALD for their flagship(s).
They want to push people to 8k that’s why. It’s all about money. Same way Sony is pushing everyone to oleds by not offering high zone lcds any longer.
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post #74 of 130 Old 01-11-2020, 02:08 PM
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Where did you hear the news Regarding the launch time
I guess he is referring to price
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post #75 of 130 Old 01-11-2020, 02:28 PM
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Hi Mark,

Since you saw the 85" Samsung Q950 can you share your opinion on how it compares to the image of a 75" Sony Z9D and 85" Z9G?

Also, how do you think Samsung is going to price the 85 inch Q950? Will it be way overpriced where almost nobody buys one (I'm too sexy for your cat :-) or will Samsung be offering it at reasonable price, meaning less than 5 figures?


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One "criticism" of Dolby vision is that it does not result in uniformity between different TV's. Instead, by trying to "maximize" the capability of individual TVs, it presents a different picture on each model TV where it is implemented & this is distinctly different from different TVs all matching a mastering display.

Ideally, if a TV can fully handle an HDR10 master, then Dolby Vision is indeed not needed (presuming 1000-nit or 4000-nit peak, 10-bit mastering).

At CES 2020 I saw the Q950 match a Sony BVM-HX310 mastering display on scene after scene. Whether any other model can do this is not so clear but the 2020 flagship should have no need for Dolby Vision.

Having said all that, the reluctance of Samsung to add Dolby Vision is baffling. The company has in the past cited "cost" as a reason but that makes little sense when entry-level, bargain-basement TVs from second-tier brand names have Dolby Vision built in. I suspect it has more to do with Samsung not wanting to use technology from another company. But then look at TCL, which uses QLED, HDR10+, relies on Roku and also features Dolby Vision on its sets... it's a most successful formula!

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post #76 of 130 Old 01-11-2020, 02:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Mark,

Since you saw the 85" Samsung Q950 can you share your opinion on how it compares to the image of a 75" Sony Z9D and 85" Z9G?

Also, how do you think Samsung is going to price the 85 inch Q950? Will it be way overpriced where almost nobody buys one (I'm too sexy for your cat :-) or will Samsung be offering it at reasonable price, meaning less than 5 figures?
It's going to be a very expensive TV, is my guess. Just based on the capabilities and design, it would be truly shocking if it came in at four figures. But that's just my personal opinion.

Versus those Sony TVs, I'd think the dark room, head-on picture is quite similar. But like other premium Samsung TVs, this one will benefit from a better anti-reflective screen, for sure.

Anyhow, watching it match the Sony 310 in scene after scene is the "trial by fire" - if it was a Sony, it would of course be called a Master Series but it's a Samsung.
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post #77 of 130 Old 01-11-2020, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
It's going to be a very expensive TV, is my guess. Just based on the capabilities and design, it would be truly shocking if it came in at four figures. But that's just my personal opinion.

Versus those Sony TVs, I'd think the dark room, head-on picture is quite similar. But like other premium Samsung TVs, this one will benefit from a better anti-reflective screen, for sure.

Anyhow, watching it match the Sony 310 in scene after scene is the "trial by fire" - if it was a Sony, it would of course be called a Master Series but it's a Samsung.
The SHOCKINGLY IMPRESSIVE thing about the Q950 is how skinny it is, where the new Sony TV's are more than 3 times as thick!?!!

Obviously Samsung is showing-off their technologic prowess. It strikes me the purpose for all the holes running around the sides and top of the Q950 bezel are not only to act as a speaker grill, but also as a ventilation system similar to the Mac Pro and XDR 32" Apple display.

I was surprised that Samsung allowed Sony to radically upstage it with the Z9D, but it seems like Samsung is back with a vengeance to reclaim the mantle. The thing that confuses me so much, is why is Sony going backwards with reducing the number of zones in their LED TVs when all the other brands are radically increasing the number of full array zones?

Speaking of which, did Samsung say how many zones the Q950 had, and if not do you have any idea from looking at the picture in person? Also, when you say the Q950 was hanging with the Sony 310, how accurate were the colors? I only ask as in the past Samsung colors were on the 'cartoonish' side. Has Samsung finally matched Sony in color reproduction? Also, how was the dimensionality with the Samsung since it is now using a system similar to Sony for a database of imagery?

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post #78 of 130 Old 01-11-2020, 03:23 PM
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Hi Mark,

Since you saw the 85" Samsung Q950 can you share your opinion on how it compares to the image of a 75" Sony Z9D and 85" Z9G?

Also, how do you think Samsung is going to price the 85 inch Q950? Will it be way overpriced where almost nobody buys one (I'm too sexy for your cat :-) or will Samsung be offering it at reasonable price, meaning less than 5 figures?
It's going to be a very expensive TV, is my guess. Just based on the capabilities and design, it would be truly shocking if it came in at four figures. But that's just my personal opinion.

Versus those Sony TVs, I'd think the dark room, head-on picture is quite similar. But like other premium Samsung TVs, this one will benefit from a better anti-reflective screen, for sure.

Anyhow, watching it match the Sony 310 in scene after scene is the "trial by fire" - if it was a Sony, it would of course be called a Master Series but it's a Samsung.
How it can be described compared to the Q90R Less or higher by contrast

Was there any dark scenes?
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post #79 of 130 Old 01-11-2020, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
It's going to be a very expensive TV, is my guess. Just based on the capabilities and design, it would be truly shocking if it came in at four figures. But that's just my personal opinion.



Versus those Sony TVs, I'd think the dark room, head-on picture is quite similar. But like other premium Samsung TVs, this one will benefit from a better anti-reflective screen, for sure.



Anyhow, watching it match the Sony 310 in scene after scene is the "trial by fire" - if it was a Sony, it would of course be called a Master Series but it's a Samsung.


Will the q900 have the same PQ as the q950? Im hoping that there will be at least one high zone Samsung tv that is priced in this stratosphere this year.
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post #80 of 130 Old 01-11-2020, 03:34 PM - Thread Starter
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How it can be described compared to the Q90R Less or higher by contrast

Was there any dark scenes?
It's going to make mincemeat out of the Q90R, based on what I saw, in terms of contrast/FALD performance. Yes I saw dark scenes.
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post #81 of 130 Old 01-11-2020, 03:56 PM
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Meanwhile Vizio is increasing to 792 zones. Why is a discount brand running circles around Samsung?
That may be so but I have not heard of Vizio making a better FALD set compared to Sony or sSamsung as of yet.
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It's going to make mincemeat out of the Q90R, based on what I saw, in terms of contrast/FALD performance. Yes I saw dark scenes.
Thats a bold declaration, but i'll try to keep an open mind when it comes upgrade time. I still despise that stand, but perhaps I can rig up a back plate to attach it to if that claim does indeed hold up.

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post #83 of 130 Old 01-11-2020, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Thats a bold declaration, but i'll try to keep an open mind when it comes upgrade time. I still despise that stand, but perhaps I can rig up a back plate to attach it to if that claim does indeed hold up.
It just so happens that the Q950 and Q90 are two of the three TVs I saw directly compared to Sony BVM mastering displays while in a controlled environment off the show floor (the other is the Z8H). It was not at the same time, in the same place... but that's why mastering displays are used as references, and it was clear the Q950 is best able to match creative intent, among the three TVs I just mentioned. Of course what I say here is purely subjective, but at least its empirical.
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It just so happens that the Q950 and Q90 are two of the three TVs I saw directly compared to Sony BVM mastering displays while in a controlled environment off the show floor (the other is the Z8H). It was not at the same time, in the same place... but that's why mastering displays are used as references, and it was clear the Q950 is best able to match creative intent, among the three TVs I just mentioned. Of course what I say here is purely subjective, but at least its empirical.
That's fair enough. Can't wait to see it in action!

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post #85 of 130 Old 01-11-2020, 04:44 PM
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any pictures of Q80T and Q90T stands ? are they the same as on Q80R/Q90R or not ?
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ETA for these sets?

Z9D Settings Dolby Vision, Gaming etc
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post56126450
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ETA for these sets?
It's not even worth asking that question at the show, because if it's not in the press release, they're not going to tell you.

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Well it looks like 2020 is going to be an upgrade year for me with the Q950 TS coming and the new Yamahas coming with HDMI 2.1 & HDR10+, etc


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Well it looks like 2020 is going to be an upgrade year for me with the Q950 TS coming and the new Yamahas coming with HDMI 2.1 & HDR10+, etc


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I have seen nothing about any receivers with HDMI 2.1 this year and it's the #1 thing on my agenda. Any further info/links on this?

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post #90 of 130 Old 01-11-2020, 08:34 PM
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First Look: Samsung TVs at CES 2020 Including Q950TS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nillaz View Post
I have seen nothing about any receivers with HDMI 2.1 this year and it's the #1 thing on my agenda. Any further info/links on this?


I got the info here, I’m up in the air about the new look but I’m probably going to get one http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-276-8366.html


http://bilder.hifi-forum.de/max/934577/6_985305.png

http://bilder.hifi-forum.de/max/934577/1_985300.png

http://bilder.hifi-forum.de/max/934577/2_985301.png

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Last edited by Lozin; 01-11-2020 at 08:37 PM.
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