First Look: Samsung TVs at CES 2020 Including Q950TS - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 130 Old 01-13-2020, 02:10 PM
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So I'm currently a KS8000 owner and have gotten the upgrade itch. I'm debating whether to get a 2019 model on discount (say the Q90R); or whether its worth waiting for the 2020 models to release (such as the Q90T). I don't know whether the additional features will warrant waiting for the new one or not. Any recommendations?

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post #122 of 130 Old 01-13-2020, 03:04 PM
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My understanding is a firmware update fixed that. When I reviewed the 8 series I could see each and every step all the way to full black. And tweaking the TV to adjust the shadow detail turned out to be super easy. Often an issue like that, which will appear in an early review, will get fixed through an update but the review itself will not be updated.

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Black crush and over aggressive dimming in real content are different. the over aggressive dimming was definitely not fix as far as ive read. TCL owners have been claiming on and off for months that it was fixed yet new videos with newest firmwares keet popping up on youtube and showing the issue was still there. A test pattern with various steps will not induce the dimming aggression that a full screen low APL scene will cause with such dimming algorithms.

I used to see all sorts of Samsung Q9FN owners claim the crush was fixed but it was NEVER fixed.

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post #123 of 130 Old 01-13-2020, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by jmbgator View Post
So I'm currently a KS8000 owner and have gotten the upgrade itch. I'm debating whether to get a 2019 model on discount (say the Q90R); or whether its worth waiting for the 2020 models to release (such as the Q90T). I don't know whether the additional features will warrant waiting for the new one or not. Any recommendations?
We will not know anything for sure until users get the units in there hands and testing is done...... What was at CES are prototypes.....
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post #124 of 130 Old 01-13-2020, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Black crush and over aggressive dimming in real content are different. the over aggressive dimming was definitely not fix as far as ive read. TCL owners have been claiming on and off for months that it was fixed yet new videos with newest firmwares keet popping up on youtube and showing the issue was still there. A test pattern with various steps will not induce the dimming aggression that a full screen low APL scene will cause with such dimming algorithms.

I used to see all sorts of Samsung Q9FN owners claim the crush was fixed but it was NEVER fixed.
OK, I get where you are going. In my TCL 8 Series review, I did recommend bumping the Brightness control to +1 to mitigate that effect, works like a charm to lift the crushed detail although YMMV.

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post #125 of 130 Old 01-14-2020, 03:49 AM
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I'm sorry that you're repeating the same argument used year after year, even though upscaling processing and algorithms have improved and are now able to actually improve what you are seeing in screen during the upscaling process.

But one thing is for sure, it's much easier to keep repeating the same arguments online and insisting that you're right about it. All you have to do is copy and paste.

Regardless, upscaling has moved on from being simplistic and destructive. Today's upscaling algorithms are sophisticated and reconstruct details. One can apply the same algorithms to still images in Photoshop and see the benefit so it's not snake oil.

Anyhow, since you think you're right, you are right. That's rule number one of the Internet.

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The reason why you are probably thinking that is that you might be a little uncomfortable having this discussion because on some level I actually think you know im right. But because of the position you are in you cant exactly say how useless 8k is at the moment and you instead harper on how a upscaled 8k image will look better etc.



However I agree with you that the upscaling has gotten better but you have to also take into consideration that the amount of upscaling needed to be done on an 8k tv is also astronomically bigger so it didnt improve in a linear fashion.


But , to say that an upscaled image improves picture quality over a a native one is just simply false.
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post #126 of 130 Old 01-14-2020, 04:54 AM - Thread Starter
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The reason why you are probably thinking that is that you might be a little uncomfortable having this discussion because on some level I actually think you know im right. But because of the position you are in you cant exactly say how useless 8k is at the moment and you instead harper on how a upscaled 8k image will look better etc.

However I agree with you that the upscaling has gotten better but you have to also take into consideration that the amount of upscaling needed to be done on an 8k tv is also astronomically bigger so it didnt improve in a linear fashion.

But , to say that an upscaled image improves picture quality over a a native one is just simply false.
Lol, you can tell yourself whatever you want, if it makes you feel better. But do me the favor and keep the conspiracy theories about my motivation to yourself.

I have no naive expectation that I'll change a person's mind by debating them on the Internet... that is a fact and a huge waste of time. But if you are interested in changing your own mind, experiment with upscaling on still images using Photoshop and modern algorithms.

Phones scale images with ease, not sure why you think the processing isn't there for a TV to do it. It's called progress.

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post #127 of 130 Old 01-14-2020, 09:59 AM
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Thats the most silly argument Ive heard today. If u want to watch a dvd that isnt upscaled u need to watch it on a native 720x480 display or a crt or plasma that arent restricted by a set resolution.



All upscaling really is , is addition of fake pixels so the higher resolution display can display the lower res image over the whole screen. A native resolution will always look the best on any lcd or oled tv, people are being fooled that upscaling is something positive, but its the complete opposite.
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The reason why you are probably thinking that is that you might be a little uncomfortable having this discussion because on some level I actually think you know im right. But because of the position you are in you cant exactly say how useless 8k is at the moment and you instead harper on how a upscaled 8k image will look better etc.



However I agree with you that the upscaling has gotten better but you have to also take into consideration that the amount of upscaling needed to be done on an 8k tv is also astronomically bigger so it didnt improve in a linear fashion.


But , to say that an upscaled image improves picture quality over a a native one is just simply false.
The amount of preposterous is off the charts. I shall happily cede the final word to you as an insistence upon it is a sure sign of a feeble argument and an even more feeble mind.

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post #128 of 130 Old 01-14-2020, 10:25 AM
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However I agree with you that the upscaling has gotten better but you have to also take into consideration that the amount of upscaling needed to be done on an 8k tv is also astronomically bigger so it didnt improve in a linear fashion.


But , to say that an upscaled image improves picture quality over a a native one is just simply false.

At one time I would have mostly agreed with this, but we don't live in that world any more. AI, image enhancement algorithms, and processing horsepower have become sufficiently sophisticated that we can now extrapolate detail where it simply didn't exist previously.



One could make the argument that this added detail no longer represents the "true" image, but that's a philosophical discussion best had elsewhere.
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post #129 of 130 Old 01-15-2020, 10:53 AM
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post #130 of 130 Old 01-15-2020, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by glassbil View Post
The reason why you are probably thinking that is that you might be a little uncomfortable having this discussion because on some level I actually think you know im right. But because of the position you are in you cant exactly say how useless 8k is at the moment and you instead harper on how a upscaled 8k image will look better etc.

However I agree with you that the upscaling has gotten better but you have to also take into consideration that the amount of upscaling needed to be done on an 8k tv is also astronomically bigger so it didnt improve in a linear fashion.

But , to say that an upscaled image improves picture quality over a a native one is just simply false.
Interesting discussion, and without a dog in this fight, I'd like to take the devil's advocate and argue in favor of upscaling based on its technical merits:
1. Assume 75" TV showing 1080p source material.
2. Assume you have both a native 1080p 75" TV and 8K TV upscaling the 1080p source material
3. Assume everything else is level matched to be equal (color volume, brightness, SDR, etc.)
4. The native 75" TV has literally 1080p number of pixels, and every pixel simply displays the exact match from the 1080p source. This ensures that the 75" TV represents each and every source pixel fully and accurately as intended. However, 1080p pixels are significantly larger on a 75" TV; thus, if the pixels are round/circle shaped dots, then there will be gaps between each pixel dot, but if the pixels are square to eliminate the gaps, then there will be also be visible pixelation/macroblocking visible on the 75" TV due to the lower resolution.
5. The 8K 75" TV has more pixels (16x more) than the 1080p TV, so this 8K TV will use 16 pixels to represent one 1080p source pixel. So this is where the magic happens and the crux of our disagreement! Those who are against upscaling - they believe that there is no way 16 pixels can be properly calibrated/directed to better a single 1080p pixel. The pro-upscaling side argues that having 16 pixels means you will never have visible pixelation because each 8K pixel can provide a smoother gradient to fill in the spaces between each 1080p source pixel.

My conclusion: 75" 1080p native panel will ALWAYS have gaps that are visible between the pixels - there is no solution to overcome this - you're trying to fill a larger panel with 1/16 the number of pixels, how does that work?8K upscaling gives the "opportunity" to fill in those mixing gaps with the right upscaling algorithm (whether AI or whatever) so that the gaps between each 1080p source pixel appears more natural than the pixelation of 1080p.

What anti-upscalers fail to understand is that upscaling is essential for large screen TVs!
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