New 65" for PS4/5 gaming, Sony XBR65X950G vs Samsung QN65Q70R? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 30 Old 04-07-2020, 06:13 AM - Thread Starter
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New 65" for PS4/5 gaming, Sony XBR65X950G vs Samsung QN65Q70R?

Since my work is forcing me to work at home till end of May and Uncle Sam is sending me stimulus money, I wanna treat myself and keep myself busy in redoing my home theatre setup as a project so I wish upgrade my 2013 Samsung F6300 55" LCD to a 4K TV with HDR since I'm gaming a crap ton on PS4 Pro and eventually PS5. I have a sony X700 UHD Blu Ray player and Yamaha TSR 7815 AVR. 90% of usage will be gaming the rest is HTPC with bittorent shows and some Ultra HD movies.


The main importance to me is low input lag and low motion blur/ghosting and after a good amount of research, I've mostly narrowed it down to these choices. What's been other owners experience with either of these, pros and cons? I wanna buy the TV at my local Costco.


NOTE: I don't wanna spend more then about $1200, worry about burn in with games and my condo has really bright sun light during the day, SO NO OLED! Period

I also want to get the TV within the next few weeks so no, I am not waiting for new models either.
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post #2 of 30 Old 04-07-2020, 10:45 AM
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Since you brought up OLED I need to clarify some misformation, as a gamer if you plan on playing the same game example fortnite for many hours every day for the next few years then you will end up with burn-in. If you plan on putting 50 hours into a game and moving on to another you won't get burn-in. The LG OLED can go over 800 nits in hdr gaming and peak brights of over 400 nits in SDR gaming so unless you are a son god and not from planet earth that is very bright for a bright room.
LCD TVs need to turn off their processing to lower input lag so you can an inferior picture quality while on an OLED tv the game mode looks as good as movie mode with low input lag.
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post #3 of 30 Old 04-07-2020, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by picturequality View Post
Since you brought up OLED I need to clarify some misformation, as a gamer if you plan on playing the same game example fortnite for many hours every day for the next few years then you will end up with burn-in. If you plan on putting 50 hours into a game and moving on to another you won't get burn-in. The LG OLED can go over 800 nits in hdr gaming and peak brights of over 400 nits in SDR gaming so unless you are a son god and not from planet earth that is very bright for a bright room.
LCD TVs need to turn off their processing to lower input lag so you can an inferior picture quality while on an OLED tv the game mode looks as good as movie mode with low input lag.

I'm not spending $2000 on a OLED TV sorry, even if it gave me a BJ
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post #4 of 30 Old 04-07-2020, 11:36 AM
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I would go with the Sony. Input lag won’t be a noticeable difference. The Sony will have a better contrast and much more accurate color. Samsung like being the brightest tv in the room which isn’t always best.
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post #5 of 30 Old 04-07-2020, 11:37 AM
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If you are planning on an upgrade to a PS5 this holiday season, trying to hold out for a 2020 set with HDMI 2.1 is super recommended, as it should allow for [email protected] and variable refresh rates, for value I would look at the 2020 Vizio Quantum X, I'm currently waiting for that set to drop so I can make sure everything is good. Also if you pick up a Vizio, going someplace like Costco for the 2 year warranty, and then adding an extended warranty is not a bad idea, I don't trust them to be as reliable as Sony or Samsung. I currently have a 70" Vizio M from the 2016 model year and the back light is starting to fail, but I went through Costco and bought the extended warranty so it's cool.
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post #6 of 30 Old 04-07-2020, 12:13 PM
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My vote is for the Q70R.

Better black levels, slightly better local dimming, lower input lag (even playing at 4K60 outside Game Mode), supports Variable Refresh Rates, less stutter, better HDR gaming, better HDR movie watching.
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post #7 of 30 Old 04-07-2020, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by HothTron View Post
I'm not spending $2000 on a OLED TV sorry, even if it gave me a BJ
Your budget is $1200 you can get the LG B9 55 inch OLED for $1,296 on amazon only $96 over budget.
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post #8 of 30 Old 04-07-2020, 07:11 PM
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Having owned a couple of Samsungs I can say that they have a big problems with Image Duplication in ALL modes (except movie mode) where they flicker the backlight (PWM) at 120hz, regardless of the refreshrate of the input source and content. This means that when you play a game in game mode and pan the camera or play a side scrolling plattformer if the game run at 60fps then the backlight flashes 2 times per frame but your eyes while tracking motion on screen will keep moving between the flashes and you'll get the same frame exposed two times slightly offsetted in your eyes. This them makes the image look like it has a ghost double. It also exacerbate high contrast edges like the sky scrapers in Spiderman ps4 to flicker much more during camera movement. I'll concede that games that uses motion blur will alleviate a lot of the image duplication but not every game has it and you don't always want it on either. Even just scrolling text in a game or when browsing a web page you see the text twice.
Not a lot of reviewers notices this as they generally only look at how the TV performs in Movie mode and only measure input-lag as an after thought and most aren't avid games with a graphics background. I went through two Samsungs after coming from a TV that didn't even utilize the horrible PWM solution and it was quite a bad experience. In the end I settled with Sony as they do their PWM updates at 720hz in ALL modes, this creates so many duplicates they blend together and you can only notice it if you look for it on fast moving thin 1 pixels lines against black backgrounds, and even then it's a non issue. Also Sony has far more accurate colors and better Local Dimming in game mode as the blacks are only there in movie mode for Samsung, at least on my models I tested.

I would pick the the Sony over the Samsung in a hear beat. I can conclude that Sony clearly respect image quality after having tried and seen them both in action. Samsung to me is a polished turd, it looks vibrant with flashy features but if you understand image quality and look closer, it's still a turd, Sony is they way to go.
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post #9 of 30 Old 04-07-2020, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by picturequality View Post
Your budget is $1200 you can get the LG B9 55 inch OLED for $1,296 on amazon only $96 over budget.

I want to go 65 inch
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post #10 of 30 Old 04-07-2020, 07:19 PM
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I am not a gamer so take my word with a grain of salt, but usually Samsungs have more gamer-centric features, while Sony TVs have more natural and faithful image reproduction. Shopping at Costco makes it easy since you can't even get the Sony X950G there.
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post #11 of 30 Old 04-07-2020, 07:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JoelArt View Post
Having owned a couple of Samsungs I can say that they have a big problems with Image Duplication in ALL modes (except movie mode) where they flicker the backlight (PWM) at 120hz, regardless of the refreshrate of the input source and content. This means that when you play a game in game mode and pan the camera or play a side scrolling plattformer if the game run at 60fps then the backlight flashes 2 times per frame but your eyes while tracking motion on screen will keep moving between the flashes and you'll get the same frame exposed two times slightly offsetted in your eyes. This them makes the image look like it has a ghost double. It also exacerbate high contrast edges like the sky scrapers in Spiderman ps4 to flicker much more during camera movement. I'll concede that games that uses motion blur will alleviate a lot of the image duplication but not every game has it and you don't always want it on either. Even just scrolling text in a game or when browsing a web page you see the text twice.
Not a lot of reviewers notices this as they generally only look at how the TV performs in Movie mode and only measure input-lag as an after thought and most aren't avid games with a graphics background. I went through two Samsungs after coming from a TV that didn't even utilize the horrible PWM solution and it was quite a bad experience. In the end I settled with Sony as they do their PWM updates at 720hz in ALL modes, this creates so many duplicates they blend together and you can only notice it if you look for it on fast moving thin 1 pixels lines against black backgrounds, and even then it's a non issue. Also Sony has far more accurate colors and better Local Dimming in game mode as the blacks are only there in movie mode for Samsung, at least on my models I tested.

I would pick the the Sony over the Samsung in a hear beat. I can conclude that Sony clearly respect image quality after having tried and seen them both in action. Samsung to me is a polished turd, it looks vibrant with flashy features but if you understand image quality and look closer, it's still a turd, Sony is they way to go.



Are you talking in regards to the specific models I listed or just in general? Are you saying that RTings are not accuract in comparing the Q70 to the 950G? https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/x950g

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post #12 of 30 Old 04-07-2020, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by fatuglyguy View Post
I am not a gamer so take my word with a grain of salt, but usually Samsungs have more gamer-centric features, while Sony TVs have more natural and faithful image reproduction. Shopping at Costco makes it easy since you can't even get the Sony X950G there.
They have touted gaming features, but on most recent models the Local Dimming has been worse in game mode while all the reviewer that talk about Samsungs deep blacks are based on Movie mode and don't apply to gaming on several recent models. Also, with Sony you can game with full chroma 444 over Samsungs 422 making the image appear a bit sharper. And if you read my post above they have a bad problem of Image Duplication in game mode unless you game at 120fps. Samsung is too much hype but Sony just deliver a more accurate image, even in gaming.

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post #13 of 30 Old 04-07-2020, 07:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JoelArt View Post
They have touted gaming features, but on most recent models the Local Dimming has been worse in game mode while all the reviewer that talk about Samsungs deep blacks are based on Movie mode and don't apply to gaming on several recent models. Also, with Sony you can game with full chroma 444 over Samsungs 422 making the image appear a bit sharper. And if you read my post above they have a bad problem of Image Duplication in game mode unless you game at 120fps. Samsung is too much hype but Sony just deliver a more accurate image, even in gaming.

Having low input latency and low motion blur is very important to me as 90% of my usage is PS4 Pro/ Xbox 1 /Xbox 360/ gaming with some ultra HD from Sony X700 and HTPC with lower quality bittorent videos
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post #14 of 30 Old 04-07-2020, 07:40 PM
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Are you talking in regards to the specific models I listed or just in general?
The image duplication is a problem on all their recent TVs that uses backlight with PWM, take a look at their latest Q90/Q90R measurement (under the Flicker-Free section) over model over at Rtings.com https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sa...e-test-results

"We tested the TV in 'Movie' mode with Auto Motion Plus disabled. There are, however, many instances where the flicker rate changes to 120Hz. For example, in 'Movie' mode the flicker changes to 120Hz if you set Auto Motion Plus to 'Custom' or 'Auto.' In 'Standard' and in 'Game' modes the flicker is always at 120Hz, similar to the Q900R."

You have to use the frame interpolation mode in game mode to get avoid the image duplication but it increases the input lag a bit and creates artifacts around edges, I've tested this on the ones I've owned.

The sad part is that it not a technical problem to always run PWM at 960hz they way they do it in Movie mode, I mean it works on Sony without problems. The sad part is that not a lot of reviewers and consumer pick up on this, reviewer don't notice it as they don't game seriously and just look at the all might Movie mode or simply don't understand that something is wrong with the picture and think that this is the way it's supposed to be.

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post #15 of 30 Old 04-07-2020, 07:42 PM
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They have touted gaming features, but on most recent models the Local Dimming has been worse in game mode while all the reviewer that talk about Samsungs deep blacks are based on Movie mode and don't apply to gaming on several recent models. Also, with Sony you can game with full chroma 444 over Samsungs 422 making the image appear a bit sharper. And if you read my post above they have a bad problem of Image Duplication in game mode unless you game at 120fps. Samsung is too much hype but Sony just deliver a more accurate image, even in gaming.
Noted. I'm not a general fan of Samsung due to weird colors, more visible artifacting, and their strange ideas of what makes a quality picture. I have four Sonys (Z9D, A1E, X930E, X800D) myself.

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post #16 of 30 Old 04-07-2020, 07:52 PM
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Having low input latency and low motion blur is very important to me as 90% of my usage is PS4 Pro/ Xbox 1 /Xbox 360/ gaming with some ultra HD from Sony X700 and HTPC with lower quality bittorent videos
Sony X950G have input lag of 19-21 ms. Having played on both a Samsung at 17 ms and then on the Sony I'd say the difference is very negligible unless you're aiming to win a CS Go championship. It's ever so lightly noticeable when going back and forth. I've played Tekken on a pretty high level for over 15 years and lag is critical to me and I'm doing fine with my 21ms on my ZF9. Would I wan't even less lag, sure but 19ms is Excellent, especially considering how crisp picture looks during gaming due to full chroma 444 and good stable local dimming and color accuracy, fire and skin look the way they should, not some hue that is ever so slightly off.

Regarding the motion blur, it will be the same amount for both of them but Sony's looks more even and cleaner while Samsung produces this ugly image duplication, like you are seeing every so slightly double.

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post #17 of 30 Old 04-07-2020, 08:20 PM - Thread Starter
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So the extra $200 your saying is worth it on the X950G, even for just gaming and even if I have to go to Best Buy to get it cause I guess Costco doesn't carry that model of Sony?
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post #18 of 30 Old 04-07-2020, 08:40 PM
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So the extra $200 your saying is worth it on the X950G, even for just gaming and even if I have to go to Best Buy to get it cause I guess Costco doesn't carry that model of Sony?
Yes I would.

Especially for gaming, I would personally get the X950G over any Samsung for gaming due to Image Duplication issues, great local dimming in all modes, Full Chroma 444 with sRGB at the same time and superior Color Accuracy, which BTW is some thing I noticed didn't look quite right on the Samsung, orange hues in fire and skin tones had a weird undersaturated look for me coming from one of Sonys best 1080p LCD at the time and the moment I turned on the ZF9 after having spend a month with the Samsungs was a big sigh of relief as the colors were just right again. All I can say is that I didn't turn on the Samsungs again during my evaluation period. Also isn't the X950G more comparable to the Q80R?

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Also isn't the X950G more comparable to the Q80R?

I dunno, I guess so? But Q80R is also more out of my price range and harder to find being older model and the Q90 way outa my price
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I am still debating on the X950G or waiting for the X900H. My question is how many games will take advantage of 4k/120? And the X950G will do 4k/60 correct? Will casual gamers notice the difference? I have a local video store that has a great price on the X950G, Lets just say its under$999. So tempted. And I have a Sony receiver thats 4k pass thru, but its not HDMI 2.1, Could I feed the Sound from the PS 5 separate? I also have pretty much ruled out OLED myself as well. Curious what you go with.
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post #21 of 30 Old 04-08-2020, 01:56 AM
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I am still debating on the X950G or waiting for the X900H. My question is how many games will take advantage of 4k/120? And the X950G will do 4k/60 correct? Will casual gamers notice the difference? I have a local video store that has a great price on the X950G, Lets just say its under$999. So tempted. And I have a Sony receiver thats 4k pass thru, but its not HDMI 2.1, Could I feed the Sound from the PS 5 separate? I also have pretty much ruled out OLED myself as well. Curious what you go with.
First off, 120 fps gaming is really nice, there is a noticeable difference from 60 fps and you can feel it in the games responsiveness but it's not quite the jump as it is from 30 to 60. I can often spot by eye when a game is running at 30 vs 60 but to differentiate 60 vs 120 I have to play the game to feel it. If you can combine it with BFI (Black Frame Insertion = Motionflow Clearness 1~3 (120hz)) panning imagery looks very crisp and clear, even better than on an old CRT. Recent Sony TVs don't do BFI @ 60hz unfortunately but the flicker at this rate is quite tiresome over prolonged gaming so that's probably the reason they left it out. Now 4K/120 is quite demanding on the hardware, I can barely get 1080/1440p @ 120hz in modern games with lowered graphical setting on my 2080 Ti, getting full 4K/120 is going to need either the upcoming graphics cards on a beefy PC or the new consoles coming but then they will use a lot of tricks like rendering at lower resolution and then reconstructing a higher resolution from that image with various techniques like checker board patterning and temporal frame accumulation as well as DLSS etc. It's a bit hard to speculate, if we consider this generation, most games stuck to 30 on consoles but hopefully 60 will be the new standard on the upcoming ones. While 120 might be happen in some titles, I've heard rumors that the next Gran Turismo is aiming for 120hz and that would help a lot in a racing game but probably most games will opt for even more image fidelity and stay at 30-60 hz instead. On PC though it's more likely to happen with the future RTX 3080 Ti and DLSS but you are going to pay top dollars for it. So if you have a REALLY good PC or planing to get one then waiting for X900H might be an option.

Edit: here is a good article on the subject on 120 fps gaming: https://uk.pcmag.com/nvidia-geforce-...t-4k-and-144hz
"In our testing, we found that at the bare minimum, most gamers will need a PC that uses dual GeForce RTX 2080 graphics cards just to hit 100fps at 4K. To get to 120fps or 144fps, dual GeForce RTX 2080 Ti cards are what you'll need. In either case, the cards would be linked through Nvidia's new NVLink system (the successor to SLI)."

Edit2: the X950G does 4K/60 no problem and 1080p/120.
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post #22 of 30 Old 04-08-2020, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelArt View Post
Having owned a couple of Samsungs I can say that they have a big problems with Image Duplication in ALL modes (except movie mode) where they flicker the backlight (PWM) at 120hz, regardless of the refreshrate of the input source and content. This means that when you play a game in game mode and pan the camera or play a side scrolling plattformer if the game run at 60fps then the backlight flashes 2 times per frame but your eyes while tracking motion on screen will keep moving between the flashes and you'll get the same frame exposed two times slightly offsetted in your eyes. This them makes the image look like it has a ghost double. It also exacerbate high contrast edges like the sky scrapers in Spiderman ps4 to flicker much more during camera movement. I'll concede that games that uses motion blur will alleviate a lot of the image duplication but not every game has it and you don't always want it on either. Even just scrolling text in a game or when browsing a web page you see the text twice.
Not a lot of reviewers notices this as they generally only look at how the TV performs in Movie mode and only measure input-lag as an after thought and most aren't avid games with a graphics background. I went through two Samsungs after coming from a TV that didn't even utilize the horrible PWM solution and it was quite a bad experience. In the end I settled with Sony as they do their PWM updates at 720hz in ALL modes, this creates so many duplicates they blend together and you can only notice it if you look for it on fast moving thin 1 pixels lines against black backgrounds, and even then it's a non issue. Also Sony has far more accurate colors and better Local Dimming in game mode as the blacks are only there in movie mode for Samsung, at least on my models I tested.

I would pick the the Sony over the Samsung in a hear beat. I can conclude that Sony clearly respect image quality after having tried and seen them both in action. Samsung to me is a polished turd, it looks vibrant with flashy features but if you understand image quality and look closer, it's still a turd, Sony is they way to go.
Actually, there is no duplication in frames when using Game Mode even though it's a 120Hz backlight flicker. It's when using modes outside Game Mode and 120Hz is enabled. Playing in Movie Mode with Auto Motion Plus off gives 960Hz and good input lag (56ms surprisingly handles well) with the TV displaying all content at 4K60, and better overall local dimming.

Edit: even going back and forth right now, the input lag feels lower in Movie Mode with Auto Motion turned off instead of using de-judder mode.

Also, the Sony 950G is comparable to the Samsung Q70. Not the Q80.

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post #23 of 30 Old 04-08-2020, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Also, the Sony 950G is comparable to the Samsung Q70. Not the Q80.



Funny, everyone else is completely opposite of that
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post #24 of 30 Old 04-08-2020, 11:46 AM
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Actually, there is no duplication in frames when using Game Mode even though it's a 120Hz backlight flicker. It's when using modes outside Game Mode and 120Hz is enabled. Playing in Movie Mode with Auto Motion Plus off gives 960Hz and good input lag (56ms surprisingly handles well) with the TV displaying all content at 4K60, and better overall local dimming.
No sir, you are dead wrong (5:00):

There you can see Vincent testing the Q90R and clearly see the Image Duplication in-game mode. He later in the video incorrectly states that it's not visible in actual gaming but I Tweeted him and he agreed that it was because he was testing with motion blur enabled in the game which often mask most of the ghosting during camera movement. In a game without motion blur and a game with 60fps and backlight flicker of 120hz you WILL get image duplication, it's physically unavoidable as you will get the same image exposed in two places on your retina as your eyes keeps moving in-between the exposure. At 30 fps you'll get 4 ghost. Only at 120 fps gaming will you get a clean image.

If you see no image duplication when playing a game without it having any ingame motion blur you're likely having the Auto Motion Plus enabled on your Samsung. What model do you have?

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Edit: even going back and forth right now, the input lag feels lower in Movie Mode with Auto Motion turned off instead of using de-judder mode.
I have two lag testers from Leo Bodnar, I've measured all the modes on Q9FN and Q900 my self and I can guarantee you that game mode is more responsive than any other mode you chose, especially if you disable Auto Motion Plus. If you think 56 ms is fine I get an allergic reaction to anything above 25 ms.

Edit: I want to quote Rtings on their Q90R measurements:
"We tested the TV in 'Movie' mode with Auto Motion Plus disabled. There are, however, many instances where the flicker rate changes to 120Hz. For example, in 'Movie' mode the flicker changes to 120Hz if you set Auto Motion Plus to 'Custom' or 'Auto.' In 'Standard' and in 'Game' modes the flicker is always at 120Hz, similar to the Q900R."

This in contrast to the Sonys that maintain a constant 720 hz PWM in ALL modes at all times, unless you enable Clear motion which enables BFI at 120 hz.

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post #25 of 30 Old 04-08-2020, 02:54 PM
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I have an 82" Q70R with firmware 1356. Anyone currently with a Q70R can try it out and tell what they see. Doom Eternal has the ability to turn motion blur off. I played it on Xbox One X. There is no duplication of the image in Game Mode with Auto Motion turned off. It's easy to see the duplication when playing outside Game Mode and having the flicker at 120Hz. It's not there in Game Mode.

But, I don't care about Game Mode because the input lag playing in Movie Mode with Auto Motion turned off feels good.
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post #26 of 30 Old 04-08-2020, 05:26 PM
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I have an 82" Q70R with firmware 1356. Anyone currently with a Q70R can try it out and tell what they see. Doom Eternal has the ability to turn motion blur off. I played it on Xbox One X. There is no duplication of the image in Game Mode with Auto Motion turned off. It's easy to see the duplication when playing outside Game Mode and having the flicker at 120Hz. It's not there in Game Mode.

But, I don't care about Game Mode because the input lag playing in Movie Mode with Auto Motion turned off feels good.
If you can, tryout this test at testufo.com so see whether you get duplication or not. https://www.testufo.com/framerates-v...re=2&showfps=1

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post #27 of 30 Old 04-09-2020, 04:33 AM
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Quote:
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I have an 82" Q70R with firmware 1356. Anyone currently with a Q70R can try it out and tell what they see. Doom Eternal has the ability to turn motion blur off. I played it on Xbox One X. There is no duplication of the image in Game Mode with Auto Motion turned off. It's easy to see the duplication when playing outside Game Mode and having the flicker at 120Hz. It's not there in Game Mode.

But, I don't care about Game Mode because the input lag playing in Movie Mode with Auto Motion turned off feels good.
If you can, tryout this test at testufo.com so see whether you get duplication or not. https://www.testufo.com/framerates-v...re=2&showfps=1
I had to use the Xbox One X's web browser, PS4 Pro's browser couldn't handle that site. I don't see any duplication. Just a stutter here and there due to Xbox browser, but it's running at 60fps and I don't see duplication, just the look of motion blur.
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post #28 of 30 Old 04-09-2020, 04:40 AM
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I finally found a 60fps game that shows duplication. The remastered Doom 3. I didn't see it in Gears 5, Forza Motorsport 7, Halo 5 or Doom Eternal. And Doom Eternal claims to let you turn motion blur completely off. I also didn't see duplication at that website. It just looked like motion blur. Interesting.

So I would game in Movie Mode with Auto Motion turned off. Ensures 960Hz and gives the best local dimming. Input lag hasn't got in the way of Call of Duty or Battlefield 4 on PS4 Pro.

Edited for another test:
Just tested Call of Duty Modern Warfare (2019) on PS4 Pro with World Motion Blur turned off in-game and there is no duplication. Maybe some form of motion blur is still on in most 60fps games?

In Gears 5, if I play in Movie Mode with Auto Motion Plus set to Custom with both sliders set to 0, which turns on 120Hz de-judder, I can see duplicate frames on environmental objects. Playing in Game Mode with Auto Motion Off, there is no duplicate frames. So Doom 3 remastered is still the only game I've seen it in. I'll try some other 60fps games later out of curiosity.

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post #29 of 30 Old 04-10-2020, 11:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Well I ordered a 65" X950G from Crutchfield. Hope I don't regret not going with Samsung again
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post #30 of 30 Old 04-10-2020, 11:56 PM
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Well I ordered a 65" X950G from Crutchfield. Hope I don't regret not going with Samsung again
Hope you like it. Give some impressions when you have it set up.
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