Official Samsung 71series calibration thread - Page 25 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #721 of 1365 Old 02-09-2008, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by dEEahn20 View Post

I have my backlight on 5 for hdmi and brightness at 48. THX optimizer said to put my brightness at 47. Firmware 2003.2.

Yeah, w fw 2004 backlight 6 is the absolute highest i would ever go, w brightness around 47.

For anyone who likes 7 and above, set your tv to brightness 5 and leave it there for a day. When you come back the next day, it will look perfectly fine and 7 will look too bright. Its a trick on the eyes.
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post #722 of 1365 Old 02-09-2008, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by LAKE4742 View Post

What?! There's a right and wrong in calibrating? IMO, it's really all about personal preference, no matter what some graphs look like. But, by all means, let's see these perfect settings. Did you already post them?

Ignorance is bliss

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post #723 of 1365 Old 02-09-2008, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by studdad View Post

lol, I don't think he is going to give you his settings,,,,you have to have your set calibrated. Besides, each set is different, and you have to make different calibrations in the SM to get it right, as well as the regular menu.

I really still know barely anything about all this but i am definetly trying to learn. So would it be beneficial to have a professional calibrate the tv in the service menu? not sure how much something like that would cost. but would it be worth it?
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post #724 of 1365 Old 02-09-2008, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by studdad View Post

lol, I don't think he is going to give you his settings,,,,you have to have your set calibrated. Besides, each set is different, and you have to make different calibrations in the SM to get it right, as well as the regular menu.

I don't know why people find this concept so hard to accept. These threads tend to go the same way... people posting their settings that they came up with non scientifically on their unit by looking at video rather than test patterns. Some folks do a good job using test DVD's, sometimes even pattern generators, and sometimes even color analyzers. But even when someone gets accurate settings for their set they won't look right on a different unit because settings are different for all units.

Pro calibration isn't for everyone. If you want to spend time you can get your set pretty good yourself with little more expense then a test DVD like AVIA. But it takes a lot of research and tinkering around for weeks and months to do what a good pro can in five or six hours. And you can only get so far without test equipment.

I appreciate tinkering and tweaking because that's how I got into calibration in first place. I played and tweaked my set for months and then realized I could only achieve so much without the tools. So I bought the tools and started to tweaking my set again for months. Finally I thought I could do this professionally and stated taking jobs... that was many years ago, but I still have a high degree of respect for tweakers because that's where I came from. For me, it wasn't about the time I spent, it was the fun of the project.

So if you like to play and are happy to spend hours messing with your set then have at it But if you just want a picture that looks top notch and is correct then hire a pro. In any event you can't just plop settings into your TV and expect it to look calibrated or even better than it did before.

One big change between when I was tinkering and now is the switch from CRT to digital displays. CRT's followed certain rules and their output was predictable. Unfortunately now with digital signals the output can be impossible to predict and there aren't as many cool DIY tools and techniques that work well. With CRT chromacity was fix and was dictated by the phosphor in the tube (unless you wanted to add die to the coolant or change c elements). Now chromacity can be adjusted by mixing primaries. Also, the brightness of colors on CRT was fixed with the color decoder and now that's independent too... times have changed.

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Precision Video Calibration Craig Rounds
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco Six-G & Six-A HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator / Analyzer
LightSpace XPS Pro & ChromaPure Pro Color Calibration Software
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post #725 of 1365 Old 02-09-2008, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by CIR-Engineering View Post

I don't know why people find this concept so hard to accept. These threads tend to go the same way... people posting their settings that they came up with non scientifically on their unit by looking at video rather than test patterns. Some folks do a good job using test DVD's, sometimes even pattern generators, and sometimes even color analyzers. But even when someone gets accurate settings for their set they won't look right on a different unit because settings are different for all units.

Pro calibration isn't for everyone. If you want to spend time you can get your set pretty good yourself with little more expense then a test DVD like AVIA. But it takes a lot of research and tinkering around for weeks and months to do what a good pro can in five or six hours. And you can only get so far without test equipment.

I appreciate tinkering and tweaking because that's how I got into calibration in first place. I played and tweaked my set for months and then realized I could only achieve so much without the tools. So I bought the tools and started to tweaking my set again for months. Finally I thought I could do this professionally and stated taking jobs... that was many years ago, but I still have a high degree of respect for tweakers because that's where I came from. For me, it wasn't about the time I spent, it was the fun of the project.

So if you like to play and are happy to spend hours messing with your set then have at it But if you just want a picture that looks top notch and is correct then hire a pro. In any event you can't just plop settings into your TV and expect it to look calibrated or even better than it did before.

One big change between when I was tinkering and now is the switch from CRT to digital displays. CRT's followed certain rules and their output was predictable. Unfortunately now with digital signals the output can be impossible to predict and there aren't as many cool DIY tools and techniques that work well. With CRT chromacity was fix and was dictated by the phosphor in the tube (unless you wanted to add die to the coolant or change c elements). Now chromacity can be adjusted by mixing primaries. Also, the brightness of colors on CRT was fixed with the color decoder and now that's independent too... times have changed.

craigr

Would you mind telling me about how much a Pro calibration would normally cost?
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post #726 of 1365 Old 02-09-2008, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by metal83 View Post

I really still know barely anything about all this but i am definetly trying to learn. So would it be beneficial to have a professional calibrate the tv in the service menu? not sure how much something like that would cost. but would it be worth it?

It really depends on how much you like your picture. If you love it, then may not be worth the bother, but if you want to get the best picture possible according to industry standards, then yes, it would be worth it. The vast majority of people who get it done like the calibrated picture better than their old picture, at least from what I have read in the various forums. In fact, I cannot remember someone saying they did not like it better. Ultimately, the choice is yours. Are you happy with your current picture, or do you want the best your tv can produce? From my understanding, Calibration costs vary depending on where you live, and how experienced/well known the calibrator is. I have seen quotes of $250 up to $500.

Edit: btw, those costs are for one input. You can have various sources calibrated, i.e. calibrated for your cable/satellite, or PS3, HD DVD, etc. Usually you get a price break for additional inputs. You can also have your sound calibrated as well in many instances.

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post #727 of 1365 Old 02-09-2008, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by CIR-Engineering View Post

Pro calibration isn't for everyone. If you want to spend time you can get your set pretty good yourself with little more expense then a test DVD like AVIA. But it takes a lot of research and tinkering around for weeks and months to do what a good pro can in five or six hours. And you can only get so far without test equipment.

I appreciate tinkering and tweaking because that's how I got into calibration in first place. I played and tweaked my set for months and then realized I could only achieve so much without the tools. So I bought the tools and started to tweaking my set again for months. Finally I thought I could do this professionally and stated taking jobs... that was many years ago, but I still have a high degree of respect for tweakers because that's where I came from. For me, it wasn't about the time I spent, it was the fun of the project.

So if you like to play and are happy to spend hours messing with your set then have at it But if you just want a picture that looks top notch and is correct then hire a pro. In any event you can't just plop settings into your TV and expect it to look calibrated or even better than it did before.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studdad View Post

It really depends on how much you like your picture. If you love it, then may not be worth the bother, but if you want to get the best picture possible according to industry standards, then yes, it would be worth it. The vast majority of people who get it done like the calibrated picture better than their old picture, at least from what I have read in the various forums. In fact, I cannot remember someone saying they did not like it better. Ultimately, the choice is yours. Are you happy with your current picture, or do you want the best your tv can produce? From my understanding, Calibration costs vary depending on where you live, and how experienced/well known the calibrator is. I have seen quotes of $250 up to $500.

Edit: btw, those costs are for one input. You can have various sources calibrated, i.e. calibrated for your cable/satellite, or PS3, HD DVD, etc. Usually you get a price break for additional inputs. You can also have your sound calibrated as well in many instances.

LOL! I can pay to have the sound professionally calibrated too? This is too much! No wonder rookies like myself become so obsessed with this stuff....because it's NEVER finished. I think the picture looks good, even with me leaving the white balance settings at 15. I think it's a good picture right out of the box, but, I would love to have it professionally calibrated! The sound, also. $200 to $500 is nuts! Actually, I could have it done, except I'll need to find a socket outside on the street to plug it in and watch, because I won't have any rent money. This hobby keeps getting more and more expensive, so I'll just remain a novice, and continue to envy you pros. craigr, you've hurt my settings feelings.

Although, not everyone has a 5271, so that's something to feel good about.

"Talk to me Goose."
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post #728 of 1365 Old 02-09-2008, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by LAKE4742 View Post

LOL! I can pay to have the sound professionally calibrated too? This is too much! No wonder rookies like myself become so obsessed with this stuff....because it's NEVER finished. I think the picture looks good, even with me leaving the white balance settings at 15. I think it's a good picture right out of the box, but, I would love to have it professionally calibrated! The sound, also. $200 to $500 is nuts! Actually, I could have it done, except I'll need to find a socket outside on the street to plug it in and watch, because I won't have any rent money. This hobby keeps getting more and more expensive, so I'll just remain a novice, and continue to envy you pros. craigr, you've hurt my settings feelings.

Although, not everyone has a 5271, so that's something to feel good about.

I agree, it just never stops once you get hooked. Hell, now I'm buying new receiver and speakers and I just bought some 9 months ago. Things will have to slow down though, as I am running out of excuses to the wife.

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post #729 of 1365 Old 02-09-2008, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by studdad View Post

I agree, it just never stops once you get hooked. Hell, now I'm buying new receiver and speakers and I just bought some 9 months ago. Things will have to slow down though, as I am running out of excuses to the wife.

I hear you guys there, after i got this tv i found myself wanting it all. So i took the plunge on a ps3 for the blu-ray, which was very well spent money because i am starting to absolutely love it. But now i find myself wanting a surround system to compliment it all. Trying to convice the GF into the idea all tho we spent so much money already. Actually buying a system will be the challenge for me tho as i have never purchased one before. Not even sure where to start as its all so overwhelming to me. Anyways needless to say, i'm getting hooked.
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post #730 of 1365 Old 02-09-2008, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by metal83 View Post

I hear you guys there, after i got this tv i found myself wanting it all. So i took the plunge on a ps3 for the blu-ray, which was very well spent money because i am starting to absolutely love it. But now i find myself wanting a surround system to compliment it all. Trying to convice the GF into the idea all tho we spent so much money already. Actually buying a system will be the challenge for me tho as i have never purchased one before. Not even sure where to start as its all so overwhelming to me. Anyways needless to say, i'm getting hooked.

i hear yah there, im glad my wife is in england atm, we bought the sammy 4671 b4 she left and i just coundnt have a new tv without having a surround system

ill get reamed when she comes back home but it will be worth it
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post #731 of 1365 Old 02-09-2008, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by prestiege View Post

i hear yah there, im glad my wife is in england atm, we bought the sammy 7641 b4 she left and i just coundnt have a new tv without having a surround system

ill get reamed when she comes back home but it will be worth it

lol I almost when it and bought one today, but i havent done nearly enough research yet and wasnt sure what i wanted to get. I would of just delbt with whatever she wanted to throw my way tho, cause a sound system is almost mandatory with this set.
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post #732 of 1365 Old 02-09-2008, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by CIR-Engineering View Post

Hey guys,

I got to calibrate two Samsung 71 series LCD flat panels today; the LN-T5271F and the LN-T4671. I must say that I am really impressed with these after calibration and that they totally blew away my preconceived expectations. I really didn't think these sets would perform all that great, but boy was I wrong.

Test Equipment Used:
PhotoResearch PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Sencore VP-403 Calibration Generator
ColorFacts 7.0 Pro Software Suit


Evaluation Material Viewed:
Comcast HD cable
Samsung BluRay
-Casino Royal
-Harry Potter (OOTP)
Component SD-DVD
-5th Element


When I first saw the image on the LN-T4671F I was not impressed and I was a little doubtful that the set would calibrated out all that well, but I went ahead and started working...

The first thing I did was take pre-calibration readings of greyscale, gamma, black level, white level, and chromacity (color gamut). Once I was finished with that, I popped into the service menu and was quite happy to see that the parameters are almost identical to the LN-Txx81F service menu. At this point my expectations started to increase as I have had great results on the 81’s (LINK) .

To begin the calibration, I roughly dialed in black and white level and then established a baseline gamma. It seems that the 71's really like to sit at a gamma of around 2.5, but that they will play nice anywhere between about 2.2 ~ 2.55.



I had heard that the 71 series Samsungs could not run a natural gamma response. So I was pleased to see that I was able to get an exquisite and natural gamma out of both units.

Next I proceeded to dial in saturation and chromacity. In all honesty, the color gamut wasn't really all that bad out of box and this can be observed in the first gamut plot. Phase (tint) for magenta, cyan, and yellow was off a little. With the state of manufacturers not adhering to the Rec 709 gamut and blatantly abusing it, I was rather pleased to see that none of the colors were well outside the gamut boundaries. However, after calibration, I was very happy to see that I was able to get the colors even better. Magenta, cyan, and yellow came out nearly perfectly and all with only a minor sacrifice to the position of blue.



Furthermore, color gamut is only one aspect that needs attention with respect to color. The luminance (brightness) of the colors also needs to be properly adjusted and not all displays have this ability. Below are two tables of color luminance; one is at 100% output and the other is at 80% output. In each table the "W" denotes the actual luminance of white in foot lamberts. The left column is the calculated ideal luminance with respect to the actual white luminance. The second column is the measured luminance for each color as seen by my PR-650.



I have heard mentioned that the 71 series Samsung's are not capable of accurately displaying proper luminance for all colors. As can be observed this is not correct. The tables above are from the LN-T4671F, but both units performed similarly well. The data gathered shows that these sets do have excellent color luma response when compared to the ideal luma level.

Furthermore, I took readings at both 100% output and at 80% output to test for linearity in color with respect to brightness. The measurements prove that these sets do have linear saturation with respect to output so the amount of color does not change with brightness. It should also be noted that the color gamut did not change with respect to luma levels either… GREAT

After color, I moved to greyscale and the results can be seen below.



As is common these days, the LN-T4671F was extremely cool (blue) out of the box with an average color temperature of over 11,000 K. After calibration however, the greyscale came right into line with an average temp of right around 6,500 K, just where it should be.



And above are the results for delta "E" before and after calibration. DE is essentially a more precise way to measure error (RMS error), and in this case error to grey tracking.

As can be observed, before calibration the DE was running around 45 across the entire luminance range. DE of 10 or less is considered ideal for a digital display so obviously 45 is way too high. But after calibration the DE came out really well averaging less than 3 at all luminance levels. You may observe that at 10 IRE the DE was measured at 38.5, but the window looked grey to me and there was a little ambient light in the room. At 10 IRE it can be difficult to get a good reading with any ambient light because 10 IRE is just so dim. Therefore, the DE reading for 10 IRE should be taken with a grain of salt because it probably isn't accurate anyway.

And finally for greyscale here are the plots for color tracking. As can be seen, out of box there was so much blue that it was off the chart. There was also not enough red in the grey. After calibration all three colors combined brilliantly to make D65 grey.



I went back and touched up grayscale, black level, white level, gamma, and color and found that there was some interactions between settings. This was pretty easy to take care of with just one more calibration iteration.

Finally we got to view some material. Both the LN-T5271F and the LN-T4671 looked pretty much the same, but I calibrated the 46” unit for a dark room environment and the 52” unit to a mixed ambient light environment. I did more watching on the 46”.

BluRay and HD cable looked phenomenal. Colors were realistic and very accurate looking. Black level was decent and acceptable though I’ve seen better. 480p DVD through component looked great too. I thought the display's scaling was really quite good for an internal scaler. I also didn’t see any deinterlacing errors when watching 1080i through Comcast cable. I did not watch any 480i as the cable box on hand could only output one resolution and was set to 1080i.

The dark scenes in Harry Potter OOTP were quite nice even in a dark room (ambient light can help hid glowing black levels). I always wish black level were better on most digital displays so… Colors, detail, and sharpness were also great in Casino Royal and Harry Potter.

Comparing the 71 series Samsungs to the 81 series… I think the 81’s have better black level and slightly better color. However, the 71’s have slightly better gamma and better grey tracking. Honestly, I’d be thrilled with either unit and the differences between the two are not great. For my money I’d choose the 71 series over the 81 because the 71’s cost less and both designs are capable of similarly excellent image quality.

If you have any questions feel free to email [email protected] Please note, it is a well established fact that coping service menu values from any given unit into another will not provide an improved image. Every unit needs its own calibration so getting my service menu values and putting them into your service menu will not help your TV's picture and will probably hurt it. Therefore, any emails asking for service menu values will be deleted and not read.

Happy viewing

craigr

Those graphs look terrific. Very encouraging as a 71 owner. I know you said to email, and I will if you don't see this. But for the benefit of other interested owners, I'll ask a few questions here.

I am not a calibrator, so if my questions seem uninformed .... well ... they are. I have access to a probe and the ColorHCFR software and have been taking some measurements. I live so far out in the country in rural northwest Wisconsin that there is no way to get anybody to come to my house to calibrate.

What picture mode were you in "before"? I assume at least for "after" you were in movie mode, since you can't get at the greyscale adjustments with DNie off other than in movie mode.

What contrast ratio did you get?

Where do you get the "ideal" luminance for 100% white from? 41.680 seems quite dark. With my contrast in the mid 80s I get ~ 71 fL. Tom Huffman recommends 50 for LCDs, but that was too dark for my taste. Did you have to use 41.680 in order to get enough luminance from the all the primary colors? I can't get the proper luminance ratios for green and blue with my white luminance (contrast setting) so high, and I assume that if the luminance of these can be increased, it is in the service menu. If individual color luminance is not adjustable, I would hate to have to lower contrast and darken the image because of this, after all, that's why we buy LCDs in the first place!

Can you tell us which of the color adjustments you had to go into the service menu to do? I know if there are individual color luminance adjustments they have to be in the service menu. What else is in the SM?

With what is available in the regular menu and the service menu would you say the 71s have a full featured CMS?

And, what do the color adjustments in the regular menu actually DO? I can't measure anything changes with them (I'm not talking about the White Balance color adjustments .. I know they are greyscale. I'm taling about the group that has pink, green, blue, and white.)
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post #733 of 1365 Old 02-09-2008, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avramd View Post

Chris,

You only get a couple of them back. Right now I have HDMI 1 named "PC" and Picture mode set to Standard. With HTCP on, the following settings under the Picture menu are grayed out:
  • Sharpness
  • Color
  • Tint
  • Digital NR
  • DNIe
  • Auto Moton Plus

Also, under the Setup menu, HDMI Black Level is grayed out.

You are correct that you do get "Detailed Settings" back under the Picture menu by setting HTPC to "on". Thanks for pointing that out.

sadly i have 99% confirmed that under firware 2004, at least, using PC mode makes it impossible to truly calibrate the display to 6500K video sources!! the damn PC mode changes so much crap in the calibrations and appears to lock it into settings only ideal for office PC use! who uses this in an office environment?

try as i might and if say you go the nvidia control panel and look at the desktop test color chart the green is way too hot, the yellow a bit hot too and also not orange enough, the cyan is also a little hot, otoh pink is too dark and subdued, red can only be made proper by cranking red gain and offset way high. i tried like every combo possible but now way to temper down the green and cyan, no way to boost the pink properly (that my color pink slider does nto do so) or make bright yellows not have too much blue.

i did get some settings that make many images look close to as they should, but there are still some parts of some that i just can't get right and i don't beleive they have made it possible.

why does this really matter?

because HDMI 1080p non-PC mode has bugs! it does some weird stuff that causes it to not always render waht it is sent right away and this not only leads to weird effects when you move stuff around a PC desktop it also adds nasty bits of miniblinds here and there in movies and also pixelates and miniblinds away details in scattered spots.

why in the heck did they have to make PC mode use a total different calibration! (and worse one that is not truly compatible with either movie or photo viewing, which are the two uses that most people would probably use a PC hooked up to it for, well there is gaming too i guess but that could certainyl look fine under photo/video calibration).

end rant. just annoying to have this amazing panel and glass in this tv and then non-pc has artifacts and pc mode has hideous color calibration so there is no escape and no perfectly working mode to use available (at least with FW 2004. some imply that 1000 series firmware might not have these aftifacts or differing calibration, i have have no clue, for all know it just my personal set that has the non-pc mode artifcacts, nobody else has confirmed it yet). and the pc mode calibration wouldn't even cost them a dime to fix. who knows what the non-pc mode artifacts are all about.


i hope that service manual explains the service menu well enough and that it will also be able to do this even if it is explained to go in and set the native calibration settings for PC to be the same as for non-PC movie mode. at least there i can get a better handle. my spyder2 will get my SD DVD, OTA HDTV and photo editing just fine i will still haveto mess around a bit to try to get the white baalnce and all to match what the color lookup table changes do though for bluray and hd dvd since nvidia doesn't use color lookup tables for overlay mode and that is sadly what pwoerdvd uses for hidef movies.
hope this is possilble.

otherwise maybe a professional calibrator can go into the service menus and fix pc mode or maybe samsung will fix one or both modes.
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post #734 of 1365 Old 02-10-2008, 11:31 AM
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I tried my first cal using the DTP-94 probe, ColorHCFR, Tom Huffman's "how to", and alluringreality's et all disc in my PS3. Special thank-you to all.

Gotta lot to learn of course and with "low end" equipment there is only so much you can do. The DTP-94 is supposed to be pretty accurate, tho'.

The PQ is the best I have seen with my 4671, 2002->2004.

I posted on the ColorHCFR thread to maximize feedback/suggenstions/criticisms/LEARNING.

Thanks to the awesome Service Manual, and especially if some of the more knowledgeable have info about Samsung's "usual" controls and their meaning, I might, I repeat, MIGHT, have the courage to go in and up the luminance of Green and Blue and adjust hue/saturation. Assuming these adjustments are even IN the svc settings area.

Have a look:

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post13070380

Here are the settings that produced these cal results: (Not that they will transfer to YOUR TV. heh)

It was a daytime cal with grey skies (snowing actually), but the DTP-94 sits RIGHT ON the screen, fwiw.

HDMI setting in Setup: Standard
PS3 with RGB only.

Mode: Movie (Why Movie? Because it is the only mode that has DNie OFF and leaves Detailed Settings open)
Cont: 86
Bright: 46
Sharp: 15 (not that I can see a difference ... and didn't calibrate it anyway)
Color: 41 (amazingly, this is how you adjust Red)
Tint: 49/51 (and this is how you adjust the secondary color of Cyan!)
Backlight 5
DETAILED SETTINGS
Warm1
DNR: Off
Black adj: Off
Dynam cont: Off
Gamma: 0
Color: Auto (not Wide)
Edge enh: Off
xvYcc: Off
DNie: Off (greyed out)
White Balance:
R offset: 13
G offset: 11
B offset: 8
R gain: 18
G gain: 16
B gain: 29

Color Control: all on 15 (I can't see any changes in the CIE chart with any of the colors except white. I needed more luminance from both green and blue, but these sliders changed NOTHING. Might be a saturation or hue thing, but the little dots on the CIE chart didn't move at all when I went from 0 to 30! Plan to do more testing to see what moving these sliders does with greyscale adjustments.)
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post #735 of 1365 Old 02-10-2008, 01:50 PM
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I've been having experiencing problems with my TV. When I turn the TV on, there are fuzzy blue vertical lines about 2 inches wide running from across the screen. I am able to watch whats on cable, but the picture has these transparent blue lines that kind of flickers, and the majority of the screen is blue. After leaving the TV on for a while, the blue lines go away and the picture goes back to normal. I am totally clueless on why this happens...

Anyone ever experience these problems?
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post #736 of 1365 Old 02-10-2008, 10:51 PM
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When I watch a DVD, the tv will occasionally flash blue. Does anyone know what this could be? I am using a Monster Cable ultra 1000 hdmi.
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post #737 of 1365 Old 02-11-2008, 12:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studdad View Post

lol, I don't think he is going to give you his settings,,,,you have to have your set calibrated. Besides, each set is different, and you have to make different calibrations in the SM to get it right, as well as the regular menu.

that said the unit to difference is surely rather small indeed. Surely WAY, WAY smaller than the difference between stock calibration from ideal.

So hand those SM settings over, haha.

I hope this means that in the service menu you can reset any major input style's default calibration. Then I could go in and copy over the non-PC HDMI mode default to the PC mode HDMI default and be better able to get a semi-reasonable calibration done using the white balance sliders. On either all 5271, all with 2004.9 FW, or just my set alone, there are nasty artifacts for 1080p stuff on non-PC mode HDMI.
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post #738 of 1365 Old 02-11-2008, 12:48 AM
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does anyone have any good picture settings for the wii on component cables? I have an LNT4071 with 2004FW
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post #739 of 1365 Old 02-11-2008, 01:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

I tried my first cal using the DTP-94 probe, ColorHCFR, Tom Huffman's "how to", and alluringreality's et all disc in my PS3. Special thank-you to all.

Gotta lot to learn of course and with "low end" equipment there is only so much you can do. The DTP-94 is supposed to be pretty accurate, tho'.

The PQ is the best I have seen with my 4671, 2002->2004.

I posted on the ColorHCFR thread to maximize feedback/suggenstions/criticisms/LEARNING.

Thanks to the awesome Service Manual, and especially if some of the more knowledgeable have info about Samsung's "usual" controls and their meaning, I might, I repeat, MIGHT, have the courage to go in and up the luminance of Green and Blue and adjust hue/saturation. Assuming these adjustments are even IN the svc settings area.

Have a look:

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post13070380

Here are the settings that produced these cal results: (Not that they will transfer to YOUR TV. heh)

It was a daytime cal with grey skies (snowing actually), but the DTP-94 sits RIGHT ON the screen, fwiw.

HDMI setting in Setup: Standard
PS3 with RGB only.

Mode: Movie (Why Movie? Because it is the only mode that has DNie OFF and leaves Detailed Settings open)
Cont: 86
Bright: 46
Sharp: 15 (not that I can see a difference ... and didn't calibrate it anyway)
Color: 41 (amazingly, this is how you adjust Red)
Tint: 49/51 (and this is how you adjust the secondary color of Cyan!)
Backlight 5
DETAILED SETTINGS
Warm1
DNR: Off
Black adj: Off
Dynam cont: Off
Gamma: 0
Color: Auto (not Wide)
Edge enh: Off
xvYcc: Off
DNie: Off (greyed out)
White Balance:
R offset: 13
G offset: 11
B offset: 8
R gain: 18
G gain: 16
B gain: 29

Color Control: all on 15 (I can't see any changes in the CIE chart with any of the colors except white. I needed more luminance from both green and blue, but these sliders changed NOTHING. Might be a saturation or hue thing, but the little dots on the CIE chart didn't move at all when I went from 0 to 30! Plan to do more testing to see what moving these sliders does with greyscale adjustments.)

yeah, i find it confusing too, the My Color stuff:

white does change things for sure.

pink does change the color of the fur on a giraffe photo i took in tanzania but as of yet not one other thing, haha, weird.

blue does.... nothing?
green " "

Actually i might have seen a SLIGHT change on a few shades very, very particular shades of nearly pure blue and green, but yeah, didn't seem to do a whole lot, if anything.



COLOR is sort of a general saturation knob, perhaps affecting red more markedly, but it certainly does affect ALL color's saturation.


PC mode appears to dial the TINT setting in noticeably to the left and I can't find a way to undo it in the white balance settings without mucking up other stuff. It also dials COLOR down. Basically it defaults to making yellow way more lime yellow and brighter luminance, dims magenta, red and blue and makes cyan way, way too bright. At least with 2004.0FW. At least when comparing to a Samsung 244T 24" LCD and a Mitsibushi DiamondPro 900u CRT.
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I ordered the AVIA II: GUIDE TO HOME THEATER disc. Has anyone else used this with the 71? Is this a good calibration source? Hopefully, this'll put my calibration worries to rest. When I used the Halo 3 calibration disc on my 65, it kinda surprised me how dark my picture was, so, I can't wait to play with this one and see how off I am. I think I'm a pretty good tweaker, though. Does this disc give calibrations for black adjust and dynamic contrast and everything else?

"Talk to me Goose."
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post #741 of 1365 Old 02-11-2008, 07:53 AM
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kjgarrison, these sets do look great once they are calibrated and I am pleasantly surprised. A lot (most) digital flat panels can't produce results like what I've gotten off of the 71 and 81 Samsungs. I am elated to see that there exists a panel that can be properly calibrated that doesn't cost $8k.

Quote:


I live so far out in the country in rural northwest Wisconsin that there is no way to get anybody to come to my house to calibrate.

Well, that's not true I live in Chicago and I hit Wisconsin all the time. I'll probably be up your way within a month so if you did want me to calibrate your Samsung I could.

Quote:


I have access to a probe and the ColorHCFR software and have been taking some measurements.

What probe do you have access to? If it's a spectroradiometer like the EyeOne Beamer than I'd say you could get some great results if you spend the time. If it's a "spider" or other colorimeter than you might not do so well. The colorimeters have a hard time with LCD's because of the unique spectral output of the bulb.

Quote:


What picture mode were you in "before"? I assume at least for "after" you were in movie mode, since you can't get at the greyscale adjustments with DNie off other than in movie mode.

Both before and after measurments were taken in "movie" mode and both were with the "warm2" grayscale. The "warm2" grayscale is the closest one to the reference D65 grey out of the box. However, warm2 IMHO doesn't look the best out of box because the color decoder is set with a huge amount of red push... thus D65 looks too red on a stock set. In other words, cool1 might look better on an out of box set because it's a very blue greyscale and this helps to offset the very red color decoder. Once calibrated, the color decoder is flat so the D65 greyscale will look good.

I did not however choose to use movie mode because it allows for user control of the greyscale. All of my calibration work is done in the service mode and all user controls for all modes (and more) are available in the service mode. I used movie mode because there are specific controls in the service menu that allow me to make the new user defaults to go to movie mode and warm2. Movie mode is just nicer to work with in the service menu. Also, the way I calibrate, if the customer hits the reset button, the user controls return to their defaults which are the new calibrated settings.

If you decide to calibrate your TV yourself I'd suggest movie mode though for the reasons you stated. You're better off NOT using the service mode on these sets unless you really know what you are doing. You can do most things I do in the service menu with your user menu in movie mode. You are missing some of the controls I have access to in the service menu but there is much less risk.

There are literally controls in this chassis service menu that if pressed will royally hose your set. Samsung incorporated a self calibration routine in the service menu that will run through it's paces when executed. The routine expects a specific test pattern to be on the screen when run, and if it's not there the TV will calibrate its self to whatever is on the screen at the time... this is not good.

Quote:


What contrast ratio did you get?

I don't recall, it was average though. I usually don't record the contrast ratio because it is not something that I can adjust, so whatever it is is what it is

Quote:


Where do you get the "ideal" luminance for 100% white from? 41.680 seems quite dark. With my contrast in the mid 80s I get ~ 71 fL. Tom Huffman recommends 50 for LCDs, but that was too dark for my taste.

Excellent questions.

Ok, ideal luminance only means that it is the arbitrary luminance that I chose to make white at 100 IRE for this particular calibration. The reason it is called "ideal" in my table is because the luminance of the colors is derived from whatever the luminance of white is. In other words, Rec709 defines how bright red, blue, green, magenta, cyan, and yellow should be with respect to a given luminance of white. So if you take the measured luminance of white and multiply it by the coefficients given in Rec709 for the primary and secondary colors, you will get the "ideal" luminance for all six colors.

Red is always supposed to be (ideally) 21.3% as bright as white. So if I measure white at 41.6 ftl, I then multiply it by 0.213 to determine the "ideal brightness of red.

Ergo, (41.6 ftl) * (0.213) = 8.86 ftl

This same method is then used to determine the "ideal" luminance of the other colors by using their coefficients. There are different coefficients for different Rec and SMTP standards, but below are the Rec709 numbers for HD phosphors.

White = 1.00
Red = 0.213
Green = 0.715
Blue = 0.072
Cyan = 0.787
Magenta = 0.285
Yellow = 0.928

So now how did I choose 41 flt for white on this display... well to start, the absolute luminance chosen for any give display is totally arbitrary and relative. Have you ever wonder why exactly Tom Huffman recommends 50 for LCDs? He (or someone else) basically just pulled it out of the air. Really, any display can be set to any luminance above about 12 ftl and be considered within spec, but like you, most folks would find this too dim.

Also keep in mind that most colorimeters do not give an accurate reading for the value of luminance. If you haven't heard this before then you are probably surprised, but if you are using the spider probe then you can pretty much discard the value given by the meter for luminance. If you are using the EyeOne then the luminance value is pretty good, though it's probably reading slightly high. For this calibration I used my PR-650 which is known to have very exact readings for the actual value of luminance. Anyway, what I am getting at is that you should just decide what luminance looks good to your eye and probably take what your meter is telling you for this particular measurement with a grain of salt. Just pick a luminance value that looks good for what you want.

That being said, just remember that luminance is tricky because your eye will adjust to nearly any luminance once it has a few minutes to acclimate. Higher luminance always looks "better" immediately uppon first sight, but once the eye acclimates there is no discernible difference in perception (this has been proven in double blind studies). So as soon as you lower your backlight setting the picture will look "worse" and as soon as you raise backlight the picture will look "better." What I suggest is lowering the backlight while looking away from the screen, then go in another room and do 10 jumping jacks and come back to evaluate the image after giving your eye a break...

On this particular 46" set the customers actually told me that they wanted me to lean the calibration towards a dark room environment. They also specifically asked for me to make the picture darker and more like a movie theater picture. For the record, a movie theater image is usually between about 8~14 flt and sometimes even less.

One area of confusion with these sets is how to actually adjust the luminance. Of course it makes sense to think the contrast control is the one to reach for, but it's really not. If you measure the contrast (white level) as you change the contrast control, you'll find quickly that the luminance of white really doesn't move a whole lot when you increase contrast. Furthermore, on the 71 series sets they start to clip (in the service menu) as you increase contrast (I don't think the user menu allows you to raise contrast to the point of clipping). Also, when you move contrast and brightness controls around you change the dynamic range of the video processing and also you change the gamma response throughout the curve. Changing the dynamic range of the video processor can have other unpredictable detriments such as a dead and lifeless picture as well as artifacts at low IRE levels.

The best way to adjust luminance on these sets is with the "backlight" control. The backlight control is just a dimmer switch for the bulb. When you raise the backlight the bulb runs brighter and when you lower it the bulb gets dimmer. Since these customers were looking for a more film like picture I set the backlight to level 3 and then fine tuned my contrast to where it gave a gamma response I was looking for without clipping whites or running the chip outside of its range. Also, turning down the back light has the same affect as using an aperture on a DLP or even a neutral density filter... a dimmer bulb will make richer and better black levels.

Now, the additional bonus of using the backlight to control the absolute luminance is that it can be adjusted later by my customer without affecting my calibration at all. Changing brightness or contrast will adversely affect the grayscale, but raising or lowering the backlight setting will only make the image brighter or darker. So if my customers wants to get a really movie like picture they can turn the backlight lower and if they want to watch with the curtains open they can raise the backlight level; all without altering the calibration.

So I measured the luminance of white with the backlight at zero and got around 12 flt. I also measured the backlight at level 5 and got 52 ftl. And I decided to leave the backlight at level 3 for default because it provided a good compromise and I explained to the customers how to use the backlight control. I also told them not to change any other controls.

Quote:


Can you tell us which of the color adjustments you had to go into the service menu to do? I know if there are individual color luminance adjustments they have to be in the service menu. What else is in the SM?

With what is available in the regular menu and the service menu would you say the 71s have a full featured CMS?

This is a little too complicated for me to answer and I've already spent more time this morning then I planned... but the Samsungs don't have a full CMS, but they do allow for all colors to be dialed in accurately to industry standards for Rec709 in the service mode

Quote:


And, what do the color adjustments in the regular menu actually DO? I can't measure anything changes with them (I'm not talking about the White Balance color adjustments .. I know they are greyscale. I'm taling about the group that has pink, green, blue, and white.)

The color controls for "pink," "green," and "blue" don't do a darn thing in the user menu. They appear to be broken and never activated. If you look at a color bars pattern while adjusting these controls you will observe no change at all. If you measure the colors with a probe while making adjustments you will not read any change (as you observed). The only control that does anything is "white" and I can't imagine what the benefit of this control could possible be. Why would anyone want to change "white" with a slider when there are full greyscale controls available in the user and the service menu.

I hope I answered most of your questions well enough and that I am making sense to you and everyone else who read through this post.

craigr

Precision Video Calibration Craig Rounds
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco Six-G & Six-A HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator / Analyzer
LightSpace XPS Pro & ChromaPure Pro Color Calibration Software
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post #742 of 1365 Old 02-11-2008, 08:03 AM
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That looks reasonable...

Here is a tip though, don't change all your greysacle controls to positive values or all to negative values. For example, you have 13/11/8 for the RGB offsets. What I would suggest is either leaving green at zero and adjusting both red and blue. Or decreasing green to something like -5 and redoing red and blue from there.

Remember, in this case "offsets" are simply contrast controls for the individual colors and "gains" are just brightness controls for each color. So if you increase all your offsets you are actually increasing the total contrast control. Same for gains...

Your observations with sharpnesses re pretty accurate too... on HDMI there is very little affect and this is good. There is some change in sharpness though and it's actually easier to see in the service menu because it allows you to jump back and forth between 0 and 100%. The best sharpness for 1080i HDMI is going to be between level 0~20.

craigr

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

I tried my first cal using the DTP-94 probe, ColorHCFR, Tom Huffman's "how to", and alluringreality's et all disc in my PS3. Special thank-you to all.

Gotta lot to learn of course and with "low end" equipment there is only so much you can do. The DTP-94 is supposed to be pretty accurate, tho'.

The PQ is the best I have seen with my 4671, 2002->2004.

I posted on the ColorHCFR thread to maximize feedback/suggenstions/criticisms/LEARNING.

Thanks to the awesome Service Manual, and especially if some of the more knowledgeable have info about Samsung's "usual" controls and their meaning, I might, I repeat, MIGHT, have the courage to go in and up the luminance of Green and Blue and adjust hue/saturation. Assuming these adjustments are even IN the svc settings area.

Have a look:

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post13070380

Here are the settings that produced these cal results: (Not that they will transfer to YOUR TV. heh)

It was a daytime cal with grey skies (snowing actually), but the DTP-94 sits RIGHT ON the screen, fwiw.

HDMI setting in Setup: Standard
PS3 with RGB only.

Mode: Movie (Why Movie? Because it is the only mode that has DNie OFF and leaves Detailed Settings open)
Cont: 86
Bright: 46
Sharp: 15 (not that I can see a difference ... and didn't calibrate it anyway)
Color: 41 (amazingly, this is how you adjust Red)
Tint: 49/51 (and this is how you adjust the secondary color of Cyan!)
Backlight 5
DETAILED SETTINGS
Warm1
DNR: Off
Black adj: Off
Dynam cont: Off
Gamma: 0
Color: Auto (not Wide)
Edge enh: Off
xvYcc: Off
DNie: Off (greyed out)
White Balance:
R offset: 13
G offset: 11
B offset: 8
R gain: 18
G gain: 16
B gain: 29

Color Control: all on 15 (I can't see any changes in the CIE chart with any of the colors except white. I needed more luminance from both green and blue, but these sliders changed NOTHING. Might be a saturation or hue thing, but the little dots on the CIE chart didn't move at all when I went from 0 to 30! Plan to do more testing to see what moving these sliders does with greyscale adjustments.)


Precision Video Calibration Craig Rounds
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco Six-G & Six-A HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator / Analyzer
LightSpace XPS Pro & ChromaPure Pro Color Calibration Software
www.CIR-Engineering.com - [email protected]
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post #743 of 1365 Old 02-11-2008, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CIR-Engineering View Post

... The only control that does anything is "white" and I can't imagine what the benefit of this control could possible be. Why would anyone want to change "white" with a slider when there are full greyscale controls available in the user and the service menu.

For those who doesn't have access to service menu, the "white" slider lets you dial in to a more precise color tempetature regardless of what preset color temp you're using. So you can set the color temp closer to 6500k even if you are using "Cool 1".

Thanks for posting your results Craig. Quite impressive that out of the box the color is almost spot on. Not many TVs are that close by default.

kgarison, thanks also for posting your calibration settings. My xbox settings are very close to your PS3 settings although I use STANDARD and I use (or likely play with) Black Level and Dynamic Contrast more (have both set at max at the moment) than setting it to off. Like Craig have suggested, I also use green as my reference and have it set to default and work my red and blue.

...
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post #744 of 1365 Old 02-11-2008, 11:39 AM
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Yeah. So. I just read 2 pages of this thread.




Whats is going on! What happened to the good old days of plugging in the old tube and thats the way it would stay for 11 years.

There has to be a way for the average joe to calibrate this tv on their own and have it look good. Is there any disc that works well?

Help!
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post #745 of 1365 Old 02-11-2008, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lice View Post

Yeah. So. I just read 2 pages of this thread.




Whats is going on! What happened to the good old days of plugging in the old tube and thats the way it would stay for 11 years.

There has to be a way for the average joe to calibrate this tv on their own and have it look good. Is there any disc that works well?

Help!

One can use THX Optimizer for a start. You can find this on some DVDs (like The Incredibles) and it is a pretty good basis and start. You can also use AVIA or Video Essentials if you want a more in depth self calibration.

...
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post #746 of 1365 Old 02-11-2008, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

I tried my first cal using the DTP-94 probe, ColorHCFR, Tom Huffman's "how to", and alluringreality's et all disc in my PS3. Special thank-you to all.

Gotta lot to learn of course and with "low end" equipment there is only so much you can do. The DTP-94 is supposed to be pretty accurate, tho'.

The PQ is the best I have seen with my 4671, 2002->2004.

I posted on the ColorHCFR thread to maximize feedback/suggenstions/criticisms/LEARNING.

Thanks to the awesome Service Manual, and especially if some of the more knowledgeable have info about Samsung's "usual" controls and their meaning, I might, I repeat, MIGHT, have the courage to go in and up the luminance of Green and Blue and adjust hue/saturation. Assuming these adjustments are even IN the svc settings area.

Have a look:

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post13070380

Here are the settings that produced these cal results: (Not that they will transfer to YOUR TV. heh)

It was a daytime cal with grey skies (snowing actually), but the DTP-94 sits RIGHT ON the screen, fwiw.

HDMI setting in Setup: Standard
PS3 with RGB only.

Mode: Movie (Why Movie? Because it is the only mode that has DNie OFF and leaves Detailed Settings open)
Cont: 86
Bright: 46
Sharp: 15 (not that I can see a difference ... and didn't calibrate it anyway)
Color: 41 (amazingly, this is how you adjust Red)
Tint: 49/51 (and this is how you adjust the secondary color of Cyan!)
Backlight 5
DETAILED SETTINGS
Warm1
DNR: Off
Black adj: Off
Dynam cont: Off
Gamma: 0
Color: Auto (not Wide)
Edge enh: Off
xvYcc: Off
DNie: Off (greyed out)
White Balance:
R offset: 13
G offset: 11
B offset: 8
R gain: 18
G gain: 16
B gain: 29

Color Control: all on 15 (I can't see any changes in the CIE chart with any of the colors except white. I needed more luminance from both green and blue, but these sliders changed NOTHING. Might be a saturation or hue thing, but the little dots on the CIE chart didn't move at all when I went from 0 to 30! Plan to do more testing to see what moving these sliders does with greyscale adjustments.)

What are your setting exactly for PS3?
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post #747 of 1365 Old 02-11-2008, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CIR-Engineering View Post

That looks reasonable...

Here is a tip though, don't change all your greysacle controls to positive values or all to negative values. For example, you have 13/11/8 for the RGB offsets. What I would suggest is either leaving green at zero and adjusting both red and blue. Or decreasing green to something like -5 and redoing red and blue from there.

Remember, in this case "offsets" are simply contrast controls for the individual colors and "gains" are just brightness controls for each color. So if you increase all your offsets you are actually increasing the total contrast control. Same for gains...

Your observations with sharpnesses re pretty accurate too... on HDMI there is very little affect and this is good. There is some change in sharpness though and it's actually easier to see in the service menu because it allows you to jump back and forth between 0 and 100%. The best sharpness for 1080i HDMI is going to be between level 0~20.

craigr

You wouldn't happen to ever come down to Miami, FL would you?? lol, so you can calibrate my set.
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post #748 of 1365 Old 02-11-2008, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CIR-Engineering View Post

That looks reasonable...

Here is a tip though, don't change all your greysacle controls to positive values or all to negative values. For example, you have 13/11/8 for the RGB offsets. What I would suggest is either leaving green at zero and adjusting both red and blue. Or decreasing green to something like -5 and redoing red and blue from there.

Remember, in this case "offsets" are simply contrast controls for the individual colors and "gains" are just brightness controls for each color. So if you increase all your offsets you are actually increasing the total contrast control. Same for gains...

Your observations with sharpnesses re pretty accurate too... on HDMI there is very little affect and this is good. There is some change in sharpness though and it's actually easier to see in the service menu because it allows you to jump back and forth between 0 and 100%. The best sharpness for 1080i HDMI is going to be between level 0~20.

craigr

Craig, thank you very much for your two thoughtful, and helpful, posts in answer to my questions and your review of my calibration fumblings. I understand the point you made about having the offsets on the same side of neutral. The 'default' in the user menu is 15, and all three are on the same side of neutral. I'll redo and see what I can do.

If it isn't asking too much, I would appreciate hearing what the service menu lacks to make you say the 71s do not have a full CMS. First, maybe we should define "full CMS". I think it means the ability to adjust luminance, hue, and saturation for all primary (and secondary?) colors. Whether this is correct or not, I am still very interested in hearing what you found lacking.

I noticed in your CIE chart that green is off somehat less so than mine was but there isn't much difference between 'before' and 'after'.
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post #749 of 1365 Old 02-11-2008, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pebkacTX View Post

What are your setting exactly for PS3?

I'm not looking at the PS3 at the moment, but I tried to make the color settings as simple as possible. So the settings about wider color spectrum are all "off". This includes YPbCr, super-white. The RGB setting is "auto" and the only other choice is "limited", which to my understanding has to do with black and white either being 0-255 or 16-235 resptecively.

Otherwise the settings are HDMI, 1080p, upconversion (on). Can't think of what else. Are there specific settings you think would be pertinent? If so, what. I could have overlooked something important and would appreciate learning from anybody that knows more about this.
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post #750 of 1365 Old 02-11-2008, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by dmanmco View Post

When I watch a DVD, the tv will occasionally flash blue. Does anyone know what this could be? I am using a Monster Cable ultra 1000 hdmi.

Blue screen equals loss of signal=
a bad spot on the DVD, sometimes just a smudge.

Music, more music.
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