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post #31 of 196 Old 01-02-2008, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shin CZ View Post

Input lag is so overrated.

I've had 4 LCD's in the past 2 years. AN Insignia, and 3 Samsungs of different models and specs. Only similarities are that they all have 8ms refresh and 60hz (aside from my 4071's 120hz).

Even playing online, I still rock the house in multiplayer. Input lag was never an issue.

Has for camera pannings, it's true. LCD's don't do those too well, unless you go with the 120hz, which help out a lot.

Even considering all the downfalls of the LCD, I would NEVER trade in my 4071 Samsung for ANY other TV (unless it was for a 52", lol). The 120hz and AMP makes games amazing, because of the simulated higher framerate. CRT's nor Plasmas can do that.

I rather play my games at 60fps with TBE issues, than play them at 30fps with no issues.

Ever play Wii Mario Strikers on an LCD and try to stop the Power Strikes? Its MUCH harder than on a CRT. As a result, you get rocked online.

Enjoying Blu-ray @ 46" 1080/24p with uncompressed 5.1
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post #32 of 196 Old 01-02-2008, 12:18 PM
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wasn't tbe fixed in the latest firmware?
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post #33 of 196 Old 01-02-2008, 12:20 PM
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great post.. thx.
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post #34 of 196 Old 01-02-2008, 01:38 PM
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Wow, you guys are really picky, either that or have bad sets. I could care less to see a minisucle tad bit of blur. I own the Dell 30" and blur isn't even an issue to me even when playing fps.

120 hz, I could care less. Still is not as good as my crt, but my crt takes 20 minutes to warm up and makes a nice loud humming sound while it's on. Not to mention it's not 30" and does not put out an ultra high def picture like my 30" 2560X1600 lcd does.
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post #35 of 196 Old 01-02-2008, 02:44 PM
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Thanks for this thread! Very interesting. I hope these issues improve over the next year, when I plan to upgrade.
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post #36 of 196 Old 01-02-2008, 02:53 PM
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Run the test on a Samsung HL-TXX89 series. I dare you.

Eastern NC.
Come on Plasma and LCD guys!...you know that the DLP format is better!...& You can be format neutral if you want but the war is over...BluRay won!
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post #37 of 196 Old 01-02-2008, 02:54 PM
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CRT ROCKS!!!
Thanks for the work!
Happy New Year!

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post #38 of 196 Old 01-02-2008, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isucamper View Post

borf,

can you please run this test on every single HDTV ever made as well as each new HDTV as they are released?

you have quantified what I have been experiencing in my comparisons of CRT vs new HDTVs as far as gaming is concerned

it will be nice to know when HDTV finally catches up to the old CRTs (for gaming, westa settle down man)

Maybe not every hd set ever made, but it would be cool if you did this against a high rated plasma to show comparisons between all 3 techs.
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post #39 of 196 Old 01-03-2008, 02:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isucamper View Post

borf,

can you please run this test on every single HDTV ever made as well as each new HDTV as they are released?

No but I can give an overall picture (as I see it) which may save a lot of time -

Fact: If it's "sample-and-hold" it will blur. That includes all Digital Displays currently out there - DLP and Plasma are not oficially SAH but work very similar, so it goes something like this:

CRT > Plasma/DLP/120hz LCD > LCD.

Even new technology like OLED or FED will have to find some way around SAH if they are to avoid blur. CRTs are immune.

Fact: The more image processing, the more lag. DNie motion processing and other "extras" that are used to sell TVs don't help much for gaming. I could live with the lag personally, but lag + blur = a not so enjoyable experience.

In the end, it's more like "pick your poison"
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post #40 of 196 Old 01-03-2008, 03:24 AM
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Game designers now have also put the death of CRTs in consideration. From this point forward, you will see more and more games incorporate some adjustment for lag. So in the very, very near future, lag won't even be an issue anymore.

...
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post #41 of 196 Old 01-03-2008, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenEarDrum View Post

Game designers now have also put the death of CRTs in consideration. From this point forward, you will see more and more games incorporate some adjustment for lag. So in the very, very near future, lag won't even be an issue anymore.

Games are inherently sensitive to lag. You can "adjust" all you like but the issue still exists.
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post #42 of 196 Old 01-03-2008, 05:59 AM
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Like it or not, my 5 year old Sony 40 inch XBR HDTV tube set with 1080i blows away the LCDs for gaming. No lag...no ghosting...no TBE...just perfection.

It's a beast at 350 pounds, but performs like a champ 5 years later for gaming and HD. Moved it to basement family room (well, 4 guys did) and replaced with 46 inch LCD in main level family room. Needless to say, all gaming takes place downstairs.

C
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post #43 of 196 Old 01-03-2008, 09:51 AM
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borf,

Thanks a ton for the details, the pics are great.

To my plane simple eyes, I have felt the plasma (the best ones), are very close to high quality CRT's for live sports (football, baseball, etc) and high quality HD movies.

I am correct with that assumption?
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post #44 of 196 Old 01-03-2008, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonPerson View Post

borf,

Thanks a ton for the details, the pics are great.

To my plane simple eyes, I have felt the plasma (the best ones), are very close to high quality CRT's for live sports (football, baseball, etc) and high quality HD movies.

I am correct with that assumption?


Everyone, please remember that this is a "Gaming" comparison between CRT and LCD, nothing else.

But if we take gaming out of the discussion, do we still have TBE or Motion Blur or stuttering or lag issues?
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post #45 of 196 Old 01-03-2008, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metalsiren View Post

I am new poster, but I have been reading these forums for a couple of months, so that I can make a good purchase for upgrading to an HDTV.

I am mostly a gamer and I have a PS3. It seems the market is trending towards LCD. I have checked XBR4 and Sammy71. However, the motion blur and input lag is unacceptable for me, especially towards fighting games where I need to be perfect on an 8-frame jab after blocking a 10-frame disadvantage attack.

I figured that perfect HDTV for me would be the SONY KDL-34XBR960. Two problems though: the TV is no longer produced and it's only 1080i (some PS3 games are in 720P and won't upscale to 1080i but downgrade to 480p instead).

As a result, I will still wait for an LCD that would be almost CRT-like in performance in motion blur and input lag. No HDTV upgrade yet. Maybe in CES, there will be a solution.

Oh... How about plasmas, RPs, and FPs? Are any of them better in handling motion blur and input lag?


You sound like a Tekken player. Heh, T6 will no longer has 8 frame jabs, but your points are well taken.

I can recommend my HDTV without any hesitation... the Sony SXRD XBR2 (60" or 70"). It is a rear projection set (LCoS technology) so it doesn't have any of the LCD problems mentioned here. It has no significant lag at all when playing techincal precision games like Tekken 5: DR or Guitar Hero, so that won't ever be an issue for you.

It is fully 1080P compliant, unlike the 1080i-input HDTV you mentioned (1080i adds input lag to gaming). The visual image is stunning; the blacks are deep and the colors 'pop' better than almost any other set I've seen. Take it from a fellow fighting game fan... this HDTV will suit all of your stated needs.

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post #46 of 196 Old 01-03-2008, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kezug View Post

Everyone, please remember that this is a "Gaming" comparison between CRT and LCD, nothing else.

But if we take gaming out of the discussion, do we still have TBE or Motion Blur or stuttering or lag issues?

Yes. Fast action sports and move scenes in general on the LCDs. I do not own a Plasma so cannot say.

C
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post #47 of 196 Old 01-03-2008, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke M View Post

Games are inherently sensitive to lag. You can "adjust" all you like but the issue still exists.

Sure, it's called "gamer response lag".

...
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post #48 of 196 Old 01-03-2008, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borf View Post

DLP and Plasma are not oficially SAH but work very similar,

I would argue that plasma is actually very different than SAH, since the time during which the plasma cells are emitting light is a fraction of the frame period. about 5 ms max out of 16.7 ms. And the intensity of the emitted light is controlled by how often the cells discharged during that 5 ms. See this excellent summary on plasma technology:

http://www.plasma.com/classroom/plasma_physics.pdf

In particular, fig. 10.

CLau
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post #49 of 196 Old 01-03-2008, 01:27 PM
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borf,
Excellent thread, thanks for the posts, and your handy work.
I have a 4669, and have been enjoying it, it's been something getting use to some of the tbe, and stutter, and or motion blurr, but it's totally different than my 32" sony CRT.
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post #50 of 196 Old 01-03-2008, 03:08 PM
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Well done, you put a lot of work into this and it shows. A lot of LCD fanboys just don't want to admit that LCD is terrible for motion and bash anything that shows the flaws in their favorite tech. Plasma comes close to CRT but still falls short just like every other tech when it comes to motion. I picked up a 42 inch Plasma to hold me over until a flat panel or rear projection set can match CRT for motion, until then I will keep my Plasma for gaming. I can't wait to see what comes out of CES.
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post #51 of 196 Old 01-03-2008, 05:03 PM
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Ugh, this is so confusing.

Is there a thread where everyone just posts their top 3 TV's for Gaming, Movies and TV?

So if I get the 69/71f series I wont have a good game experience? And my movies will have TBE everywhere? But it still looks good?

Im to much of a newb to be looking at this stuff.
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post #52 of 196 Old 01-03-2008, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Plasma comes close to CRT but still falls short just like every other tech when it comes to motion. I picked up a 42 inch Plasma to hold me over until a flat panel or rear projection set can match CRT for motion, until then I will keep my Plasma for gaming. I can't wait to see what comes out of CES.

Scanning laser projectors (not DLP) should perform similarly to CRTs as far as motion goes...if and when they become available.
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post #53 of 196 Old 01-03-2008, 05:26 PM
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Yes, I am a avid Tekken player. As you know that game is relies heavily on frames. I just want an HDTV that will not hinder my gaming experience. CES is coming up. I will wait for the news.

I will buy an HDTV by April, and I will take your suggestion into consideration. However, I would really want a top-notch LCD on motion blur and input lag.
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post #54 of 196 Old 01-03-2008, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clau View Post

I would argue that plasma is actually very different than SAH, since the time during which the plasma cells are emitting light is a fraction of the frame period. about 5 ms max out of 16.7 ms. And the intensity of the emitted light is controlled by how often the cells discharged during that 5 ms. See this excellent summary on plasma technology:

http://www.plasma.com/classroom/plasma_physics.pdf

In particular, fig. 10.

You would be right. Except that Plasma spreads the light emission pulses across the entire frame period (see same figure). The reason Plasma displays are excellent for motion blur is that the effective duty cycle is only about 25-40% depending on brightness. This is because all of the large pulse widths are near the end of the frame.

Borf, great thread and kudos on the SAH inclusion. I've posted SAH info many times over the years and it never seems to sink in on this forum. Just to add some minor clarifications

- CRTs are not immune to this type of blur, they are just the least affected (see ratings below)

- SAH (sample and hold) is a bit of a misnomer. In truth only LCD and some OLED (ie XEL-1) screens actually use SAH circuitry. I too have used SAH to describe plasma but now I know this is wrong.

The real culprit for motion blur (as described by borf correctly) is retinal blur. And the longer the image is held on the screen the greater the blur (assuming our eyes are tracking movement). So the motion performance of a display will be determined by the emission time per frame. Essentially the emission time is the effective duty cycle the viewer percieves. Rather than quote emission times (wich everyone confuses with response time) I'll use duty cycle

Assuming 60Hz (16.7ms frame period)

The effective duty cycles are as follows (shorter the better regarding motion performance)

PMOLED - 0.06%
CRT - 10%
Plasma - 25-40%
120Hz LCD - 50% Note(120Hz BFI is true 50% while 120Hz interpolation is 100% with 1/2 frame period)
60Hz LCD - 100%
AMOLED - 100%

Note: if an LCD that combines 120Hz with backlight scanning is used the motion performance can exceed Plasma (don't know if this exists yet?)

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post #55 of 196 Old 01-03-2008, 08:35 PM
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Also, I don't know if it has been mentioned yet but improving motion performance by reducing the duty cycle comes at the cost of introducing flicker. CRT might have the best motion performance but also has the most obvious flicker. The tradeoff will always exist unless massive amounts of interpolated frames are used.

For instance a 240Hz LCD with interpolation will have great motion performance without any flicker but it also means that 90% of the frames will be calculated when fed a 24Hz signal(yikes)

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post #56 of 196 Old 01-03-2008, 08:38 PM
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I feel sick reading these kinds of posts. It's disgusting to think we ditched a perfect picture to increase the profit margin. I'm still sticking with my CRT monitor.
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post #57 of 196 Old 01-04-2008, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronx19 View Post

I feel sick reading these kinds of posts. It's disgusting to think we ditched a perfect picture to increase the profit margin. I'm still sticking with my CRT monitor.

There are many areas where LCD's and plasmas beat CRT. Game lag is not the only important aspect in choosing a display.

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post #58 of 196 Old 01-04-2008, 12:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks all - and again, I love my LCD for movies and my CRT for games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

PMOLED - 0.06%
CRT - 10%
Plasma - 25-40%
120Hz LCD - 50% Note(120Hz BFI is true 50% while 120Hz interpolation is 100% with 1/2 frame period)
60Hz LCD - 100%
AMOLED - 100%

Xrox, thanks for joining and answering people's questions. I'll add this to the first posts for people wondering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Note: if an LCD that combines 120Hz with backlight scanning is used the motion performance can exceed Plasma (don't know if this exists yet?)

Yep we discussed this a while back and I think it was agreed to - How about adding support for 120hz inputs - No blur OR lag yes? I don't know why it can't be done. The technology is there don't you think? (you mentioned current response times may not "cut it")

P.S. Do you have stats on rear-projection (DLP,LCOS ect..)
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post #59 of 196 Old 01-04-2008, 01:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonPerson View Post


To my plane simple eyes, I have felt the plasma (the best ones), are very close to high quality CRT's for live sports (football, baseball, etc) and high quality HD movies.

I am correct with that assumption?


Yes according to above info (I don't know much about plasma).
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post #60 of 196 Old 01-04-2008, 01:34 AM
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Bronx19,
I couldn't agree with you more!! I'll never forget the first experience I had with a "top of the line" plasma TV my friend had just purchased! Went home 30 minutes later dizzy and thought I'd been drinking from motion blur! I'll be the first to admit as long as the picture is basically standing still it's incredible!!

It's a media hype joke and makes me lose confidence in society! We're suppose to be more geeked out than ever?? It's the "keepin' up with the Jones" society we live in and that's all that matters!! If everyone would tell the TV Mfgs. to stick it and why, then they would have to go back to the drawing board and figure out how to produce a real TV again without motion blur!!
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