Official Panasonic TC-PxxST60 Series thread - Page 469 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #14041 of 14065 Old 04-01-2019, 06:14 PM
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LCD's suck... Let's move on.
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post #14042 of 14065 Old 04-01-2019, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Test Ickles View Post
LCD's suck... Let's move on.
Just in case you missed it. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...s-plasmas.html
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post #14043 of 14065 Old 04-14-2019, 11:37 AM
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Shootout between a 42 inch ST60 and a black level reset 42 S10 incoming..


2013 model vs 2009 model..


Just a preview.. Yes.. the STS60 suffers also from rising black levels as every Panasonic Plasma tv in the long run..


42 inch ST60 where measured from around 0,005 nits.. mine does 0,015 nits.. 3 times worse..


On german threads there are multiple claims that their ST60 does not seem as black as the stock level, but they dont have any tool to measure it.. But there are multiple claims that this does not happen with GT or VT or ZT series..


So this is a comparison of a 2009 plasma with a reset 0,04 nits black level vs a 2013 Panasonic with a 0,015nits black level.. So the ST60 has more then twice as good black level..


Teaser.. not that much..
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post #14044 of 14065 Old 04-14-2019, 11:39 AM
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Cant see anything? Here we go.. longer exposer..

Yes there is a difference.. but not night and day.. Actually you question the black level of the ST60..


The ST60 is for sure no kuro killer..

Not even close..
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post #14045 of 14065 Old 04-14-2019, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce2019 View Post
Cant see anything? Here we go.. longer exposer..

Yes there is a difference.. but not night and day.. Actually you question the black level of the ST60..


The ST60 is for sure no kuro killer..

Not even close..
I have an ST60 from 2009 that I'm still very happy with.

So I should expect that the black levels have risen over that time?

It gets a lot of use.

What do you suggest I modify in the settings to allow for this change over time?

Picture mode: CUSTOM
Contrast: 71
Brightness: 62
Color: 49
Tint: 0
Sharpness: 15
Color temp: WARM 2
Color mgmt: Off [grayed out]
Photo enhancement: [grayed out]
C.A.T.S.: OFF
Video NR: OFF

--PRO SETTINGS SUBMENU
Color space: NORMAL
W/B high R: +7
W/B high G: 0
W/B high B: +16
W/B low R: +7
W/B low G: 0
W/B low B: + +4
Black extension: 5
Gamma adjustment: 2.2
Panel brightness: MEDIUM
Contour emphasis: ON
AGC: +7

BLOCK NR: OFF
Mosquito NR: OFF
Black Level: LIGHT

Geoff A. J., California
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post #14046 of 14065 Old 04-14-2019, 12:22 PM
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First shots.. and there it is, the infamous green face tint of the ST60..


Because of power restrictions, it changes white balance and boosts green to produce more brightness..


This is why you cant calibrate a 60s plasma.. it changes the content too much..
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post #14047 of 14065 Old 04-14-2019, 12:53 PM
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Dark scene content is difficult.. because no matter what you put on.. it looks the same.


except when the screen is 90% dark..


Focus on the middle part between the knight and the monster.. see how both plasmas reproduce the darkest details..


No difference between 2009 and 2013..
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post #14048 of 14065 Old 04-14-2019, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce2019 View Post
First shots.. and there it is, the infamous green face tint of the ST60..


Because of power restrictions, it changes white balance and boosts green to produce more brightness..


This is why you cant calibrate a 60s plasma.. it changes the content too much..



Have you tried setting your player output... or calibrated to YCbCr instead of RGB?


I found this quote interesting... try it out and see if it that color shift is minimized, if not eliminated.



Quote:
I encountered only one issue with our VT60 that’s not shared by the ZT60, but it gave me a headache until I discovered what was causing it (and thanks for the heads-up on this from local video calibrator Ray Coronado, a.k.a. SocalRayJr). The two most common ways to transfer digital video information from one point to another are RGB (red, green, blue) and YCbCr. The latter encodes raw RGB information for a more efficient and robust transfer and is used almost universally in consumer sources. All HDTVs operate with RGB, however, so they must first decode this YCbCr input signal to RGB before it can be displayed.



If you calibrate a set using the RGB output of a test pattern generator (thereby bypassing the decoder), then play back consumer sources (which are nearly always YCbCr), the image should nevertheless be correct—as long as the decoder is accurate. But on our VT60, this process produced a green shift in the picture. It was not obvious on all program material, but once spotted, it was hard to ignore. The solution was to recalibrate with a YCbCr source, which is what is usually done. This can usually cancel out the decoder error (assuming enough flexibility in the calibration controls). Using a YCC source for my calibration virtually eliminated the green shift. With this sorted out, the TCP65VT60 was a wonder. The colors were spectacular, whether subtle or with the brilliant palette of, say, Oz the Great and Powerful—a movie ravishing to look at but hard to love.

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...ma-hdtv-page-2
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post #14049 of 14065 Old 04-14-2019, 03:49 PM
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I see on other thread you are using a laptop as your source. I think it is most likely outputting in RGB.


change output to YCbCr and recalibrate with YCbCr and see if that eliminates "green shift"
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post #14050 of 14065 Old 04-14-2019, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 34-hfx-83 View Post
I see on other thread you are using a laptop as your source. I think it is most likely outputting in RGB.


change output to YCbCr and recalibrate with YCbCr and see if that eliminates "green shift"
Nope.. it has to do with changing gamma and color/white balance of the ST60 depending on content..


You confuse calibration with real content..


Both tvs are calibrated 100% the same.. but they perform different with real world scenario.. The S10 is stable as a rock.. the ST60 uses all sorts of tricks to boost brightness and gamma and color.. and therefor it is not stable.. It will change color balance and gamma depending on the picture.. And this will show up with skin tones.. there are tons of reports about that..

If you look at the pictures.. both tv sets look the same at some content.. but the ST60 will fall short with another content.. Only at the last picture you will see it.. = changing white balance and gamma..

Panasonic TX-P42STW60 PDP
Panasonic TX-50GXW804 LCD

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post #14051 of 14065 Old 04-16-2019, 09:21 AM
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So not even 3D LUT calibration will keep ST-60 "stable" ?
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post #14052 of 14065 Old 04-17-2019, 08:39 AM
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So not even 3D LUT calibration will keep ST-60 "stable" ?

3d LUT calibration is just different way for calibration.. You still have to decide how you measure grayscale..


And this is the key to calibrate the 60s series.. 5% window, 10% window, No APL, 10% APL, higher APL.. you will almost always get a different grey scale result.. And it will always be different with different content.. But the custom mode is the most "stable" picture mode.. best gamma and lowest change..


Even changing the gamma has quite an impact with the 60s series.. Darker gamma and you get a warmer color temp.. I did not see this with 2008, 2009 and 2010 models..


I have read that only the smaller ST60/VT60 suffer from this problem.. Reason could be more power limitations because of size (and also the larger models have more power draw and headroom)


So in theory the best way is to calibrate the 60s series "warmer" as reference and chose a window to calibrate where the green push shows up..


So although not stable it will not reach the range where green is pushed too much so it gets visible annoying.. We are the most sensitive to green and I always calibrate my plasmas rather with green one or two clicks below so I have a nice "Hulk free" image..


There was a huge discussion on avsforum what window size and what apl level to use for calibrating these plasmas and 10% APL level is a very common and recommended setting.. Window size, some use 5%, some use 10%.. I use 10% window and 10% apl and also 10% window with a fixed back ground.. Just to see if there is any kind of variation.. Because the problem shows up with skin tones (faces are usually not a large area of the screen) I can imagine that the ST60 pushes smaller bright parts towards green, to push brightness.. So a rather small window should be the right path..


Right now the S10 with 6000k run hours is my main display, because I am trying to sell it (I have another one).. and then I will deep dive into further calibrations with the ST60..


But it is also a lovely screen.. It is on sale for 60 Euros.. Nobody has interest.. so maybe I will just keep it.. Put 2 plasmas in the basement.. and one to watch..

Panasonic TX-P42STW60 PDP
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post #14053 of 14065 Old 04-17-2019, 04:35 PM
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In retrospect I must say the 20-series Panasonic plasmas from 2010 were the last of the best all-around Panasonic plasmas.

The black level sure didn't go as deep as the Kuros (like most here were expecting back then) but man the 20-series S, G and even the VT models with "Neo Plasma" panels felt brighter and had looser ABL. I think the 20-series were the brightest and loosest ABL of the 1080p panel Panasonic-made plasmas.

The quest for "deeper blacks" in later 50 and 60 series made it almost a one-dimensional display... as in movies only, avoid sports/news channels with tickers, and don't even videogame with it. Yeah I do notice the ABL on the 60 series is rather aggressive outside of bluray cinematic movies.



I own the following:

2010 50" Viera G20 THX (my all-around beater plasma)

2013 50" Viera ST60 and 55" Viera VT60 (my go-to for "cinematic" viewing)

2009 50" Elite 101FD (video gaming and PC-display in RGB only because word is that Y/Cb/Cr mode for TV/bluray viewing has a bug thats never been fixed)
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post #14054 of 14065 Old 04-18-2019, 04:04 AM
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What a nice Plasma TV collection..


What is the Y/Cb/Cr bug with the pioneer.. All media tv world is Y/Cb/Cr..


What is your opinion of the last gen Panasonics vs your Pioneer.. What would you pick?

Panasonic TX-P42STW60 PDP
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post #14055 of 14065 Old 05-12-2019, 08:27 PM
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Scored a 50ST60 for $50 Friday. No IR. Good condition with remote and stand.
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post #14056 of 14065 Old 05-13-2019, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by samijubal View Post
Scored a 50ST60 for $50 Friday. No IR. Good condition with remote and stand.

What a nice purchase..
Congrats!
Plasma TV prices collapsed this year..


I try to sell one of my 2 S1 Plasma TVs for 50 Euros.. No luck since weeks..


Update: I lowered the price to 20 Euros.. and 2 hours later someone picked it up..

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post #14057 of 14065 Old 05-13-2019, 07:15 AM
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What are historically plasma-loving folks buying instead these days? I would be interested to hear "best picture in 60" under $2000" and another recommendation in the over $2000 category.

My 60ST60 cost around $1500 when I bought it in October 2013.

Sometimes, I see dead pixels...
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post #14058 of 14065 Old 05-13-2019, 09:26 AM
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What are historically plasma-loving folks buying instead these days? I would be interested to hear "best picture in 60" under $2000" and another recommendation in the over $2000 category.

My 60ST60 cost around $1500 when I bought it in October 2013.

1) Some actually stay with plasma or buy another (better) plasma tv model
2) Oled


but some also switch to lcd/Qled..



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post #14059 of 14065 Old 05-13-2019, 09:50 AM
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1) Some actually stay with plasma or buy another (better) plasma tv model
2) Oled


but some also switch to lcd/Qled..


Right. I mean, if I needed a new TV now, something current, what would be a good choice under $2k. I personally would not buy an old plasma at this point.

Just curious; I'm not actually in the market but was researching things out of interest more generally.

Sometimes, I see dead pixels...
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post #14060 of 14065 Old 05-13-2019, 10:09 AM
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There are only 2 options ..


Oled or a good lcd tv/Qled.. Maybe there are other threads here for a general buying advice, because this is a box of pandora topic..


Personally I would invest in an calibration for your ST60.. It is worth every dime and you will be blown away by the result.. A plasma after some years needs calibration..

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post #14061 of 14065 Old 05-13-2019, 10:17 AM
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My ST60 is still doing great. I can't say I calibrated it (as I have no calibration equipment) but I did follow a process learned here to make it quite pleasing to the eye. My eye, at least .

Hope to get many years of good service from it yet!

Sometimes, I see dead pixels...

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post #14062 of 14065 Old 05-16-2019, 12:00 PM
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Oleds are nice but the Panasonic plasma's still look too good to unplug, replace
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post #14063 of 14065 Old 05-16-2019, 12:02 PM
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My interest is, if it dies, what do I go out and buy, under $2000. As in something I can get delivered in a day or two.

Sometimes, I see dead pixels...
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post #14064 of 14065 Old 05-16-2019, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc_G View Post
My interest is, if it dies, what do I go out and buy, under $2000. As in something I can get delivered in a day or two.
OLED is probably the most comparable to your ST60, but is still kinda pricey.

But the Sony X900F LCD TVs are very good. I have a newish 49X900F as well as the previous year's 55" X900E and these TVs give my 50" GT50 and 55" ST60 a good run for their money. In some categories the Sonys look and perform better, but fall a little short in black detail, shadow detail, and contrast ratio - but not by much. The Sonys are known for good processing, good color, and good motion handling. Mine look surprisingly natural and antenna / cable / streaming / Blu-Ray look much crisper and detailed. I really like watching them, and i am a hard core Plasma guy.

Narrow viewing angles seem to be the biggest complaint but that goes for all LCD TVs and not an issue for us as we sit straight on anyway.


_______
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post #14065 of 14065 Old 05-16-2019, 06:57 PM
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65 C8's are cheap on Ebay. I am not afraid to buy new from an Ebay seller with perfect feedback and lots of sales. That's how I got my B6 a few years ago. And great used Plasma's are a steal right now. Keep looking for a 65 VT60 or Zt60 and know you have the best ever made.
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