Official ST60 input lag thread - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 1326 Old 04-10-2013, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

I disagree though, because retro 2D gaming really doesn't require precise timing, I was playing the original Super Mario Bros and certainly felt it. I think retro 2D gaming is the most telling though, because of how simplistic the games were, that things were more "instant" back then.

I guess we will have to agree to disgree wink.gif

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post #32 of 1326 Old 04-10-2013, 01:57 PM
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Is this input lag issue something that can be fixed/improved with a later firmware update?
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post #33 of 1326 Old 04-10-2013, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by cpie65 View Post

Is this input lag issue something that can be fixed/improved with a later firmware update?

Can? Probably. Will? Impossible to call. Seeing as the problem is related to an overburdened processor, Panasonic would have to make compromises to their home screen. Simply giving the user an option to disable it should help.
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post #34 of 1326 Old 04-10-2013, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

Can? Probably. Will? Impossible to call. Seeing as the problem is related to an overburdened processor, Panasonic would have to make compromises to their home screen. Simply giving the user an option to disable it should help.

It may be technically possible, but it seems very unlikely. I'll put it like this: Don't buy the TV expecting that it'll be fixed.
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post #35 of 1326 Old 04-10-2013, 04:29 PM
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I'm posting this again (originally posted in the Official Panasonic TC-PxxST60 Series ST60 thread):

TX-P42ST60E lag:

With "1080p Pixel Direct ON" as high as 100ms of lag


With "1080p Pixel Direct OFF" as low as 50ms of lag


Wish it was lower but it is tolerable and doesn't affect the gameplay experience in my case (I don't play multiplayer or online games on the plasma). In fact, I hadn't noticed the lag until I read it on the HDTVtest review. Finished playing Metro 2033 and it felt perfectly fine.
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post #36 of 1326 Old 04-10-2013, 04:48 PM - Thread Starter
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What type of camera are you using and what's your testing setup? I'd like to see if I can get my panel that low or at least be able to post comparable results.

Right now, my setup is all processing off and Game mode on. I took several pictures in a row and had variance from lowest 78 to highest 117. No settings were changed during the picture taking.

Were you consistently getting 50 ms?
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post #37 of 1326 Old 04-10-2013, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by norvegia View Post

Wish it was lower but it is tolerable and doesn't affect the gameplay experience in my case (I don't play multiplayer or online games on the plasma). In fact, I hadn't noticed the lag until I read it on the HDTVtest review. Finished playing Metro 2033 and it felt perfectly fine.
That's a sign you've gotten used to it. wink.gif
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post #38 of 1326 Old 04-10-2013, 09:58 PM
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I gamed on this with no issue. To those referencing old 2d platformers: you're not taking into account that standard definition has always had a troublesome delay on the majority of HDTV's.
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post #39 of 1326 Old 04-10-2013, 10:01 PM
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Just an update... looks like the EU VT series gets ~40ms for input lag... http://www.avforums.com/reviews/Panasonic-VT65-VT60-TX-P55VT65B-P50VT65B-P65VT65B-3D-Plasma-TV-Review_507/Test_Results.html

Has there been any more tests conducted on the US ST series?.. Hmm...
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post #40 of 1326 Old 04-10-2013, 10:04 PM
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I'll say again. I game competitively online daily, and gaming on this TV (with enhancements disabled / game Mode on) is no issue whatsoever. People are simply blowing this issue way way WAY out of proportion.
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post #41 of 1326 Old 04-10-2013, 11:10 PM - Thread Starter
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I game daily too, and it's fine for some stuff. But if you want to play classic 2D stuff, then this TV is out of the question.

Also, I've noted time and again, online network latency is more of a significant factor to your gaming than your display.
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post #42 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 01:06 AM - Thread Starter
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These are my results. Again, you can see it go from as "low" as 80 to as high as 100+. No picture settings were changed during testing. Game mode is on, every processing element I can think of is turned off.

First test using flatpanels.dk input lag tester: Images show 80 ms, 80 ms, 85 ms, 100 ms






Second test using xNote Stopwatch: Images show 78 ms, 80 ms, 108 ms, 109 ms






If there is a way to get more accurate tests, please let me know, maybe my methods are poor. I captured the stopwatch using video mode on my camera, trying to keep the displays as horizontal with each other as possible. I then paused, and browsed through the video to find clear detailed timings. Other than that, I don't know what else I could do. Again, no settings were changed, and as you can see, I get variable amounts of display lag from my trust old CRT.

Edit: The only thing I can't control is the displays running at different Hz. My CRT is running at 75 Hz and the Panny is 60 Hz. However, vsync is disabled.
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post #43 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 04:18 AM
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I've got a 60 inch ST60 on pre-order right now, but this thread has me a bit concerned about it. Most of the games I play are Action/Adventure games or RPGs; games like Assassin's Creed, Dark Souls, Tales of Vesperia, Darksiders, etc. I know that it won't affect turn based games (like Final Fantasy), but I do worry about how the more Action-y games will play. I also do play Shooters occasionally, but usually only story-based ones like Bioshock or Tomb Raider.

If it's going to be a big deal for those games then I think I may have to cancel and consider something else like a S60. I'm hoping it won't be a big deal since I'm not exactly into competitive FPS games or Fighters.

Do you guys have any advice about those types of games and this level of input lag? Also I'm currently using a pretty old Phillips 42PFL3603D/27 LCD, if it's not any worse than that I think I'll be okay.
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post #44 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 04:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfoh View Post

I've got a 60 inch ST60 on pre-order right now, but this thread has me a bit concerned about it. Most of the games I play are Action/Adventure games or RPGs; games like Assassin's Creed, Dark Souls, Tales of Vesperia, Darksiders, etc. I know that it won't affect turn based games (like Final Fantasy), but I do worry about how the more Action-y games will play. I also do play Shooters occasionally, but usually only story-based ones like Bioshock or Tomb Raider.

If it's going to be a big deal for those games then I think I may have to cancel and consider something else like a S60. I'm hoping it won't be a big deal since I'm not exactly into competitive FPS games or Fighters.

Do you guys have any advice about those types of games and this level of input lag? Also I'm currently using a pretty old Phillips 42PFL3603D/27 LCD, if it's not any worse than that I think I'll be okay.

If all you're used to playing on is old LCD's, it's very unlikely you would have a problem. (IMHO)
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post #45 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

These are my results. Again, you can see it go from as "low" as 80 to as high as 100+. No picture settings were changed during testing. Game mode is on, every processing element I can think of is turned off.

First test using flatpanels.dk input lag tester: Images show 80 ms, 80 ms, 85 ms, 100 ms






Second test using xNote Stopwatch: Images show 78 ms, 80 ms, 108 ms, 109 ms






If there is a way to get more accurate tests, please let me know, maybe my methods are poor. I captured the stopwatch using video mode on my camera, trying to keep the displays as horizontal with each other as possible. I then paused, and browsed through the video to find clear detailed timings. Other than that, I don't know what else I could do. Again, no settings were changed, and as you can see, I get variable amounts of display lag from my trust old CRT.

Edit: The only thing I can't control is the displays running at different Hz. My CRT is running at 75 Hz and the Panny is 60 Hz. However, vsync is disabled.

Other than the monitor refresh rate, I don't see too much you can change. It's odd how some people are getting 50ms but you are consistently getting 80+. Is there resolution on your monitor that supports 60hz? How are you connecting the two screens? Does one have a more direct path than another?
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post #46 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfoh View Post

I've got a 60 inch ST60 on pre-order right now, but this thread has me a bit concerned about it. Most of the games I play are Action/Adventure games or RPGs; games like Assassin's Creed, Dark Souls, Tales of Vesperia, Darksiders, etc. I know that it won't affect turn based games (like Final Fantasy), but I do worry about how the more Action-y games will play. I also do play Shooters occasionally, but usually only story-based ones like Bioshock or Tomb Raider.

If it's going to be a big deal for those games then I think I may have to cancel and consider something else like a S60. I'm hoping it won't be a big deal since I'm not exactly into competitive FPS games or Fighters.

Do you guys have any advice about those types of games and this level of input lag? Also I'm currently using a pretty old Phillips 42PFL3603D/27 LCD, if it's not any worse than that I think I'll be okay.

All those games will be fine. The "problem" will be most noticeable in fast paced 2D side-scrollers and fighters. Even then, you'll naturally adjust (aka not notice it) and your opponents most likely are dealing with the exact same issue as well.
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post #47 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

All those games will be fine. The "problem" will be most noticeable in fast paced 2D side-scrollers and fighters. Even then, you'll naturally adjust (aka not notice it) and your opponents most likely are dealing with the exact same issue as well.

Not necessarily 2D fighters, since they run at 60FPS and have less natural input lag.
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post #48 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Dabois09 View Post

I'll say again. I game competitively online daily, and gaming on this TV (with enhancements disabled / game Mode on) is no issue whatsoever. People are simply blowing this issue way way WAY out of proportion.

watch these videos back to back...

ST60: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXMsmQqV6zs

S60: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSF9972uVTI

make you think twice?
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post #49 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 09:31 AM
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I agree, I haven't noticed anything either! WAY, WAY, WAY out of proportion

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post #50 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by supermandlb View Post

I agree, I haven't noticed anything either! WAY, WAY, WAY out of proportion

Three ways?

What is it you consider, i mean are members posting videos & measurements etc. among those blowing it out of proportion? Or you'd prefer the matter not to be discussed at all?
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post #51 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 09:59 AM
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I agree, I haven't noticed anything either! WAY, WAY, WAY out of proportion

I wouldn't quite go that far... biggrin.gif

It's still completely unacceptable for this caliber of TV.
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post #52 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Leon! View Post

Three ways?

What is it you consider, i mean are members posting videos & measurements etc. among those blowing it out of proportion? Or you'd prefer the matter not to be discussed at all?

All I mean is... if you are going from an LCD or Plasma now, you probably wont notice.

No one will ever convince me that switching from a TV with (we'll say) 30ms of lag to a TV with 49ms to 80ms will be noticeable. Maybe if you are playing classic 2D side scrolling games you will notice. I might not recommend this TV if thats the case

I have had this TV for about 2 weeks and it is great. I would just hate for someone to decide not to buy this TV over input lag. They would be missing out on a great TV( my opinion)

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post #53 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by supermandlb View Post

All I mean is... if you are going from an LCD or Plasma now, you probably wont notice.

No one will ever convince me that switching from a TV with (we'll say) 30ms of lag to a TV with 49ms to 80ms will be noticeable. Maybe if you are playing classic 2D side scrolling games you will notice. I might not recommend this TV if thats the case

I have had this TV for about 2 weeks and it is great. I would just hate for someone to decide not to buy this TV over input lag. They would be missing out on a great TV( my opinion)

You will notice the difference between 30ms to 80ms, that's almost guaranteed. That doesn't mean 80ms is unplayable compared to 30ms though, it's just not as smooth and fluid as it could be. I agree with your first assessment though, if you haven't been concerned with input lag in the past, it's probably not going to be an issue for you.
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post #54 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by JSpectre88 View Post

You will notice the difference between 30ms to 80ms, that's almost guaranteed. That doesn't mean 80ms is unplayable compared to 30ms though, it's just not as smooth and fluid as it could be. I agree with your first assessment though, if you haven't been concerned with input lag in the past, it's probably not going to be an issue for you.

this is totally true
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Originally Posted by moshock View Post

watch these videos back to back...

ST60: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXMsmQqV6zs

S60: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSF9972uVTI

make you think twice?

i think that seeing these videos, one after another, all of us cloud in autonomy understand how the situation is. For me, the difference is like night and day. If it's not for you, all the better for you smile.gif
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post #55 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by JSpectre88 View Post

You will notice the difference between 30ms to 80ms, that's almost guaranteed. That doesn't mean 80ms is unplayable compared to 30ms though, it's just not as smooth and fluid as it could be. I agree with your first assessment though, if you haven't been concerned with input lag in the past, it's probably not going to be an issue for you.

I'm wondering if anyone knows what the input lag was on my old TV. The ST60 is replacing my Samsung LN46B750 (240 htz - 2010 model)

Thanks!!

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post #56 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by xcloudx82 View Post

this is totally true
i think that seeing these videos, one after another, all of us cloud in autonomy understand how the situation is. For me, the difference is like night and day. If it's not for you, all the better for you smile.gif
Agreed. The only parameter that is suspect in those videos (talked about in the S60 thread) is that 1080p direct was on for both the S60 and ST60. Just how much better the ST60 would have done without 1080p pixel direct is unknown, but still probably wouldn't match the S60.
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post #57 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by JSpectre88 View Post

You will notice the difference between 30ms to 80ms, that's almost guaranteed. That doesn't mean 80ms is unplayable compared to 30ms though, it's just not as smooth and fluid as it could be. I agree with your first assessment though, if you haven't been concerned with input lag in the past, it's probably not going to be an issue for you.

At 30fps, wouldn't that difference equate to a 1.5 frame lag, or 5% of a second slower? Is the human eye even capable of such a distinction? I'm not taking sides, but I feel with all other factors considered (wireless controller, network latency, A/V receiver) we might just be splitting hairs here (with the exception of older side scrollers). For example, the human eye blinks at 300ms and you can barely notice that. But you can honestly tell that one display is slower than another by 6x the speed of "a blink of an eye"? I've yet to watch the youtube videos (blocked at work), but if there's a very noticeable difference, there's no way it can be solely caused by the display latencies. Does the video give details of the camera and frame-rate being used? Is there a side-by-side comparison or could there be an opportunity for the uploader to manipulate the setup? Is the fact the S60 has a 600hz drive (easily divisible by camera speeds of 30/60fps) vs the ST60 2500hz drive (not a factor of 30 or 60) taken into consideration? I'm just trying to look at this from an objective measurement perspective.
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post #58 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by El Matadurr View Post

Agreed. The only parameter that is suspect in those videos (talked about in the S60 thread) is that 1080p direct was on for both the S60 and ST60. Just how much better the ST60 would have done without 1080p pixel direct is unknown, but still probably wouldn't match the S60.

Well the fact it doesn't properly function on the ST60 could mean a LOT. I'm not sure if it performs correctly on the S60 however...anyone?
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post #59 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

At 30fps, wouldn't that difference equate to a 1.5 frame lag, or 5% slower? Is the human eye even capable of such a distinction? I'm not taking sides, but I feel with all other factors considered (wireless controller, network latency, A/V receiver) we might just be splitting hairs here (with the exception of older side scrollers). For example, the human eye blinks at 300ms and you can barely notice that. But you can honestly tell that one display is slower than another by 6x the speed of "a blink of an eye"? I've yet to watch the youtube videos (blocked at work), but if there's a very noticeable difference, there's no way it can be solely caused by the display latencies. Does the video give details of the camera and frame-rate being used? Is there a side-by-side comparison or could there be an opportunity for the uploader to manipulate the setup? Is the fact the S60 has a 600hz drive (easily divisible by camera speeds of 30/60fps) vs the ST60 2500hz drive (not a factor of 30 or 60) taken into consideration? I'm just trying to look at this from an objective measurement perspective.

It's more about how you can "feel" the lag, than how you can see it. I know that sounds pretty weak, but it's the best way I can describe it. Game mode on my GT50 (45-50ms) feels smoother and more responsive than Custom mode (75-80ms). I'm not sure if you can relate the human eye example, average reaction times are around 225ms also. The videos are noticeably different, and that makes me wonder. The video of the ST60 looks to me like it has at least 100ms+ of lag. I don't believe the drive should be factor though, it's not really like either display actually has a refresh rate of 600hz or 2500hz.
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post #60 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSpectre88 View Post

It's more about how you can "feel" the lag, than how you can see it. I know that sounds pretty weak, but it's the best way I can describe it. Game mode on my GT50 (45-50ms) feels smoother and more responsive than Custom mode (75-80ms). I'm not sure if you can relate the human eye example, average reaction times are around 225ms also. The videos are noticeably different, and that makes me wonder. The video of the ST60 looks to me like it has at least 100ms+ of lag. I don't believe the drive should be factor though, it's not really like either display actually has a refresh rate of 600hz or 2500hz.

Well due to the technology, refresh rate doesn't really come into play on plasmas. If I recall correctly, each cell is driven independently with faster drives theoretically providing smoother transitions during fast motion. This should have more of an impact on the "feel" than small differences in latency. If I'm wrong someone please send me the proper information.

My current Samsung plasma has poor motion resolution (something like 840/1080 lines rendered). When things get hectic in my games (or I turn quickly), it looks very similar to V-sync tearing. Are you sure this might not be what you're referring too?
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