Official ST60 input lag thread - Page 24 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #691 of 1321 Old 05-31-2013, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Bruce2019 View Post

bucknuts07: Did you activate the Game Mode in the Menu?

For example this guy for sure did not, and returnd the tv and tells everybody how bad the lag is.

I did the same test, and no way it lags like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXMsmQqV6zs

Yes sir I did. All the tv's I have owned, Panny g10 , Panny Gt25, Panny px85, Panny led tc-l37-e3, lg ln5300, all have input lags in teens to probably low 30's, so when you go to something that has 73 ms input lag , its very noticable. But keep in mind, I play Cod , and while i'm not great, I'm very competitive, and gaming is a huge priority.

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post #692 of 1321 Old 05-31-2013, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Bruce2019 View Post

bucknuts07: Did you activate the Game Mode in the Menu?

For example this guy for sure did not, and returnd the tv and tells everybody how bad the lag is.

I did the same test, and no way it lags like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXMsmQqV6zs

Man, I wonder if there are different components, chips, or something on the st60, that may be causing people to get different results. Cause some people say its not noticable at all, then you see videos like yours, and videos like you mentioned. I know mine with game mode on, felt like I could pull the trigger, and notice the bullet wasnt fired, you could feel the delay. Anyway Bruce, appreciate your efforts.

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post #693 of 1321 Old 05-31-2013, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucknuts07 View Post

Yes sir I did. All the tv's I have owned, Panny g10 , Panny Gt25, Panny px85, Panny led tc-l37-e3, lg ln5300, all have input lags in teens to probably low 30's, so when you go to something that has 73 ms input lag , its very noticable. But keep in mind, I play Cod , and while i'm not great, I'm very competitive, and gaming is a huge priority.

I'm a competitive gamer as well, I would like to challenge you to a 1 vs 1 sharpshooter match on Cod, F7100 Vs St60. But now what if you lose?

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post #694 of 1321 Old 05-31-2013, 11:09 AM
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Here is the highspeed Video of Crysis 3 where you can watch firing the gun. The Video runs 4 times slower and the lag is really not that much, but I agree: Panasonic should fix this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgVEwblQbcs&feature=youtu.be

Sure: In competive games this Little lag can make a difference, as any bit of lag can.

2013 Panasonic TX-P42STW60 PDP
2009 Panasonic TX-P42S10E PDP
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post #695 of 1321 Old 05-31-2013, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by bucknuts07 View Post

Man, I wonder if there are different components, chips, or something on the st60, that may be causing people to get different results. Cause some people say its not noticable at all, then you see videos like yours, and videos like you mentioned. I know mine with game mode on, felt like I could pull the trigger, and notice the bullet wasnt fired, you could feel the delay. Anyway Bruce, appreciate your efforts.

I am wondering this too....

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post #696 of 1321 Old 05-31-2013, 11:27 AM
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Like his videos... I do not see this as a delay... not enough for me to complain about.. but that's myself.

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post #697 of 1321 Old 05-31-2013, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce2019 View Post

Here is the highspeed Video of Crysis 3 where you can watch firing the gun. The Video runs 4 times slower and the lag is really not that much, but I agree: Panasonic should fix this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgVEwblQbcs&feature=youtu.be

Sure: In competive games this Little lag can make a difference, as any bit of lag can.

Good job on this video. Really shows off the lag well.
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post #698 of 1321 Old 05-31-2013, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by bucknuts07 View Post

Man, I wonder if there are different components, chips, or something on the st60, that may be causing people to get different results. Cause some people say its not noticable at all, then you see videos like yours, and videos like you mentioned. I know mine with game mode on, felt like I could pull the trigger, and notice the bullet wasnt fired, you could feel the delay. Anyway Bruce, appreciate your efforts.

The variety of responses to the lag may come down to something Bruce2019 mentioned in a recent post ... online play versus offline play.

Somewhere in this thread somebody posted the input lag measurements for the other 2013 Panasonics and I think the difference between this and them was about 35ms or 40ms. So let's take 40ms, which is 0.040 seconds. 4% of a second difference between this and other sets that are deemed to be acceptable.

I would guess that single-player gamers are likely to subconsciously adjust to a 4% of a second lag over multiplayer gamers who would notice the difference in relation to online gamers.
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post #699 of 1321 Old 05-31-2013, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Sasquatch321 View Post

I'm a competitive gamer as well, I would like to challenge you to a 1 vs 1 sharpshooter match on Cod, F7100 Vs St60. But now what if you lose?

Forgot school is starting to let out, what are you 12 ? What if I lose, who gives a flying ****, I didnt say I was the greatest, or that gaming was impossible on the st60, I said me for me personally, it felt like I was aiming inder water.

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post #700 of 1321 Old 05-31-2013, 01:19 PM
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Any chance you can do a comparison with online Bruce?

I would - but I dont have the ST30 frown.gif

PSN (PS3/4) - Campy04
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post #701 of 1321 Old 05-31-2013, 01:19 PM
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I've read most of this thread and others similar to it. My takeaway: Shame on Panasonic.

A superb picture and marketing placement relative to price. They screwed up by not knowing their target's needs. A simple macro would have made these 24+ pages of discussion unnecessary....turn off most of the fluff software even beyond what game mode does now (or at least offering the option at the cost of some PQ).

Decision point: I can't pass up a picture, price and off angle viewing unit like the ST60. Sure, I can pay more for a VT or ZT, but that curdles my stomach. What's left? Find a second TV for gaming with lower lag numbers.

I'm a gamer, sure. Battlefield, Halo, COD, Crysis, Madden, etc. Online a split second advantage is the difference between a rewarding experience and complete frustration...and who needs more frustration in life when you're trying to have fun??? I also use the TV for it's main purpose.

Looking for a GT50. That should get the picture qualities of the ST60 with a lower lag quotient. SHeesh!

Hopeful Outlook: Panasonic will create a firmware fix.
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post #702 of 1321 Old 05-31-2013, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucknuts07 View Post

Forgot school is starting to let out, what are you 12 ? What if I lose, who gives a flying ****, I didnt say I was the greatest, or that gaming was impossible on the st60, I said me for me personally, it felt like I was aiming inder water.

This is why I go into options and turn the aiming sensitivity to 7 instead of the default 4. Try it, you may not feel like you are underwater anymore.

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post #703 of 1321 Old 05-31-2013, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Sasquatch321 View Post

This is why I go into options and turn the aiming sensitivity to 7 instead of the default 4. Try it, you may not feel like you are underwater anymore.

In my experience, high sensitivities are where you actually notice the most difference in faster vs. laggier displays. I've always suggested people confused about input lag try a responsive shooter with the sensitivity to max, flail around the reticle, and cycle Game Mode on and off as they do so (assuming their TV has a wide enough discrepancy). It's an excellent hands on demonstration for what input lag is and does.
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post #704 of 1321 Old 05-31-2013, 06:09 PM
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Quick question for you guys from a possible future buyer.. If I am playing FIFA of Madden on 60fps ( lets say on the next PS4), will I notice a input lag? I keep reading that most people are saying that its mostly on 30fps games, and I don't see the next PS4 having any 30fps games.. so will I be safe on a 60fps game?
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post #705 of 1321 Old 05-31-2013, 10:34 PM - Thread Starter
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You guys frown.gif Seriously.
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Originally Posted by Sasquatch321 View Post

This thread exist because of one person who thought he noticed lag. Lag is imperceptible by humans at 100ms or below, its as simple as that. Honestly I think you've made a mistake and should have kept your ST60, the Xbox 360 and PS3 are older machines now and the sluggishness in your games could simply be the performance of these consoles, not your tv.

You're really misinformed. Yes, I notice a lot of input lag, since I don't use TV just for gaming I also use a TV as a PC display. I play all kinds of games, classic games and such where I grew up on CRT displays with no lag and I definitely noticed a huge difference from the ST60 to those days. The ST60 stops you from reacting to the finer details in games. Is it playable? Yes, but you miss out on a lot of things simply because it feels a bit too slow. Feels. You aren't going to really see it (although the easiest method to see the lag is simply use a mouse on the display, you can clearly see it) but you'll certainly feel it when you are not used to playing on a laggy display.

You also keep mentioning how the 100 ms is the threshold it becomes noticeable. Well here's some info for you, and if you'd read the thread, you'd already see this was posted. 30 fps games have a native latency of 133 ms. That's IF there isn't any post graphical processes going on that will slow it down further (KZ2 is a good example) than native latency. A TV with 73 ms of input lag now puts that threshold over 200 ms of lag from the time you press a button to the time you see something on the display. When games this generation barely maintain 30 fps and struggle to even get mid twenties, then the lag shoots up higher.

So, as you can clearly see, a TV with high input lag is simply bad for gaming. It already crosses the threshold of noticeable delay with humans (your own info backs this up) since 90% of games developed today choose a target 30 fps.

It's even worse online. If you join a lobby in BF3 with 100 ms ping, that's already 8 frames of lag, on top of the display lag of 73 ms (5 frames) on top of the native latency of 133 ms. That's 300+ ms of input lag, and the worst part is it's variable and prone to lag spikes with wireless players and so on.

I've also done plenty of tests, objectively, on the display's lag. All features turned off, I had even gone as far as to disconnect the wireless dongle and delete every app possible and the input lag was still the same. The display is a bare minimum 5 frames of input lag. It has 3 frames of lag on top of the ST30, and while it may not look that bad on a video, it will feel slower. Comparing the display to another laggy display isn't always a good objective test, but if you're already used to a laggy display then it just goes to show the lag you'll get on top.
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Originally Posted by Bruce2019 View Post

For example this guy for sure did not, and returnd the tv and tells everybody how bad the lag is.

I did the same test, and no way it lags like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXMsmQqV6zs

Actually, that test is accurate to the lag of the display compared to a lagless display. That's exactly what I would see with my own eyes, not even need a camera, on how it was compared to my CRT. Sure, no one expects a plasma to match a CRT, but at the same time, no one should expect it to be that much worse. Compare the same guy's video of the S60 (no game mode, so testing conditions are identical) to his low lag LCD. It's night and day.

Again, lag isn't always visibly noticeable on gaming content or other forms of video, but once you start using it for other purposes such as a PC display, then you can definitely see where it's lagging behind.


Edit: BTW, a better tool to use for testing is shurcools' refresh rate tool https://github.com/shurcooL/RefreshRateMultitool since you get frames and not numbers. It's a lot more accurate and has less variables for testing and the results are more consistent, too.


Anyway, I don't think I should stick around this thread. I've since moved on from the ST60 and people are asking redundant questions that have already been answered pages back, and argue over stuff when the data is already there. How does x game feel? And so on. I can't recall how many times I've answered 60 fps vs 30 fps gaming and how they'll feel. Info's already there, so I don't see why I should repeat myself further. Same with sasquatch's miscalculation of the threshold of input lag, since I've covered that topic in this thread numerous times, too, he could have easily checked back but I think he'd rather pretend it isn't a problem.

Enjoy your ST60's, guys.
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post #706 of 1321 Old 06-02-2013, 09:53 AM
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Bought an S60 and there is no discernible lag whatsoever. I suggest buying it if you game.
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post #707 of 1321 Old 06-02-2013, 10:08 AM
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Sadly but a update wont fix imput lag.
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post #708 of 1321 Old 06-02-2013, 11:20 AM
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Sadly but a update wont fix imput lag.
I agree, the code & hardware is limited.
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post #709 of 1321 Old 06-02-2013, 01:01 PM
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So, I was able to get a good price for a canadian (delivery in 3 days). I enjoy games like Uncharted, Arkham City. I don't play Call of Duty or any online. But I do want to play Bioshock. Will Bioshock be okay since it's a single player offline FPS game? My understanding is that the lag is only bad for online shooters and sports, since it gives your opponent a huge advantage. You can pull the trigger first but your opponent kills you.

I had a sony 55" LED LCD, but never even thought of what the input lag was because I was too busy getting angry over the horrible motion blur. I played with game mode off and the motion smoother on high, because that looked the best for motion blur. But the blur was still terrible, so I returned it. On the sony, I did not notice the lag on games, but as a pc monitor the lag was very bad since I had motion smooth on high. So, it looks like I'm not sensitive to input lag in games (at least I wasn't a few months ago before I found this thread).
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post #710 of 1321 Old 06-02-2013, 01:09 PM
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So, I was able to get a good price for a canadian.

Your countrymen are proud to read that I'm sure. biggrin.gif
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post #711 of 1321 Old 06-02-2013, 01:12 PM
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So, I was able to get a good price for a canadian

smile.gif So, ummm, what price are canadians going for these days? tongue.gif j/k
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post #712 of 1321 Old 06-02-2013, 06:26 PM
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Its really a shame that Panasonic had to release an otherwise perfect TV with so much game lag. I don't even game that much...but I want to have the option to game after paying $2000+ for a TV. I guess I'll keep waiting and see if Panasonic ever releases a patch for this issue. If not, maybe I'll wait for next years models.
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post #713 of 1321 Old 06-03-2013, 10:15 AM
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Its really a shame that Panasonic had to release an otherwise perfect TV with so much game lag. I don't even game that much...but I want to have the option to game after paying $2000+ for a TV. I guess I'll keep waiting and see if Panasonic ever releases a patch for this issue. If not, maybe I'll wait for next years models.

Whats a shame is the 5 percent of people making an issue out of something that isn't discernible.

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post #714 of 1321 Old 06-03-2013, 11:49 AM
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Whats a shame is the 5 percent of people making an issue out of something that isn't discernible.
It's discernible.
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post #715 of 1321 Old 06-03-2013, 01:13 PM
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Sorry if this has been asked already, 700+ posts is a lot to read through.

For those of you who found the lag to be discernible, which tv did you decide to pick up instead? Are you happy with your new set?

My exchange policy is nearing its deadline and I need some advice on some other contending models that are gamer friendly.
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post #716 of 1321 Old 06-03-2013, 01:59 PM
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CNET just posted a column with input lag results for TVs they've tested it on....
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57587317-221/game-mode-on-cnet-tests-tvs-for-input-lag/

Yes, the ST60 ranks pretty low
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post #717 of 1321 Old 06-03-2013, 02:00 PM
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My apologies to everyone, Cnet has posted a fresh article regarding input lag and it is now real. The ST60 is officially a "no go" for first person shooting games. This article couldn't have come at a better time for me as I was about to buy the ST60 in three days. I am now reverting to my alternative, either the 47 inch or 55 inch Sony W802a.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57587317-221/game-mode-on-cnet-tests-tvs-for-input-lag/

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post #718 of 1321 Old 06-03-2013, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce2019 View Post

Here is the highspeed Video of Crysis 3 where you can watch firing the gun. The Video runs 4 times slower and the lag is really not that much, but I agree: Panasonic should fix this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgVEwblQbcs&feature=youtu.be

Sure: In competive games this Little lag can make a difference, as any bit of lag can.

Hmmm I definitely notice the lag there. Whether or not its bothersome in normal gaming idk
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post #719 of 1321 Old 06-03-2013, 02:27 PM
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My apologies to everyone, Cnet has posted a fresh article regarding input lag and it is now real. The ST60 is officially a "no go" for first person shooting games. This article couldn't have come at a better time for me as I was about to buy the ST60 in three days. I am now reverting to my alternative, either the 47 inch or 55 inch Sony W802a.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57587317-221/game-mode-on-cnet-tests-tvs-for-input-lag/

So you retract your one-on-one challenge, F7100 versus ST60, from bucknuts07?
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post #720 of 1321 Old 06-03-2013, 02:31 PM
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I think it still could have been done but I'm not putting my money on it anymore.

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