Official ST60 input lag thread - Page 27 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #781 of 1321 Old 06-06-2013, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by cadett View Post

Lag on the S60 is about a third of the ST60. The S doesn't contain the ar filter & doesn't has as many pic controls. If it's going in a room where light can be controlled & gaming is your main need, then go for it.

The S64 (Warehouse model, e.g. Costco/Sams) does have an AR filter.
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post #782 of 1321 Old 06-06-2013, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Orta View Post

The S64 (Warehouse model, e.g. Costco/Sams) does have an AR filter.

If you live in the US and can find it...
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post #783 of 1321 Old 06-06-2013, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by thomson33 View Post

Just curious why not just get this years S60 Model?
[/I]


Light control is an issue. I may consider an S60 or equivalent as a second unit in a dedicated gaming space where light can be controlled, but I do want a stellar picture image for main movie viewing. I'd rather have both an ST60 and an S60 than buy one VT60 or ZT60.
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post #784 of 1321 Old 06-06-2013, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by CYrus BORG View Post

[/I]


Light control is an issue. I may consider an S60 or equivalent as a second unit in a dedicated gaming space where light can be controlled, but I do want a stellar picture image for main movie viewing. I'd rather have both an ST60 and an S60 than buy one VT60 or ZT60.

is the picture quality that much better on the ST60? Just from reading reviews it doesn't seem like there is that much of a difference between the two.. other than the light control issue.
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post #785 of 1321 Old 06-06-2013, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by cadett View Post

Lag on the S60 is about a third of the ST60. The S doesn't contain the ar filter & doesn't has as many pic controls. If it's going in a room where light can be controlled & gaming is your main need, then go for it.

That's what I was thinking, It's just a shame that I have to sacrifice some PQ and AR filter to game..
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post #786 of 1321 Old 06-07-2013, 04:46 AM
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I still am finding it really hard to get away from this TV despite the input lag. I am running an older LCD model that I have had since university. The Toshiba 42ZV650U any idea if the input lag on the ST60 would be significantly worse than this?
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post #787 of 1321 Old 06-07-2013, 07:10 AM
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i have a samsung 40c6000. i've seen that this tv have 70 ms of input lag so i probably already used to high lag. i wont feel diference with st60
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post #788 of 1321 Old 06-07-2013, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomson33 View Post

I still am finding it really hard to get away from this TV despite the input lag. I am running an older LCD model that I have had since university. The Toshiba 42ZV650U any idea if the input lag on the ST60 would be significantly worse than this?

All this has been said before...but here it is. ST60: 73.6ms S60: 34.1. So a little more than double. That being said, will you notice it? The only way to know for sure is to buy it and see...return it if you do. I was in the EXACT same position...reading forum posts from strangers everyday. I now own the ST60 and LOVE the PQ. Input lag on game mode for both XBOX and PC (StarCraft) has been fine. I don't play XBOX online. Once I focus on the game and stop watching for lag, I really enjoy the experience. When watching for lag, I can't enjoy anything...whether there's perceivable lag to me or not. Slides are done tonight, so I'll be testing even more in the coming days. But first and second impressions have been good...
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post #789 of 1321 Old 06-07-2013, 08:50 AM
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Has anyone contacted Panasonic because it's very odd this model shows more lag than any other models in the 2013 lineup. I wonder if it's a software issue in the firmware that is not allowing game mode to work correctly on this model when engaged?
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post #790 of 1321 Old 06-07-2013, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottkillam View Post

All this has been said before...but here it is. ST60: 73.6ms S60: 34.1. So a little more than double. That being said, will you notice it? The only way to know for sure is to buy it and see...return it if you do. I was in the EXACT same position...reading forum posts from strangers everyday. I now own the ST60 and LOVE the PQ. Input lag on game mode for both XBOX and PC (StarCraft) has been fine. I don't play XBOX online. Once I focus on the game and stop watching for lag, I really enjoy the experience. When watching for lag, I can't enjoy anything...whether there's perceivable lag to me or not. Slides are done tonight, so I'll be testing even more in the coming days. But first and second impressions have been good...

He was asking if anyone knows the input lag on his old tv and how it compares to the ST60 not what the ST60's input lag in general is
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post #791 of 1321 Old 06-07-2013, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by sealteamz6 View Post

He was asking if anyone knows the input lag on his old tv and how it compares to the ST60 not what the ST60's input lag in general is

I realize this, thanks. I was responding in general to a few of his earlier messages. Specifically though, to correct when someone stated the S60 had a third of the lag of the ST60. Check them out if you have time.
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post #792 of 1321 Old 06-07-2013, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by scottkillam View Post

I realize this, thanks. I was responding in general to a few of his earlier messages. Specifically though, to correct when someone stated the S60 had a third of the lag of the ST60. Check them out if you have time.

You mean 50% lag of the ST60, not a third.

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post #793 of 1321 Old 06-07-2013, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Briant73 View Post

Has anyone contacted Panasonic because it's very odd this model shows more lag than any other models in the 2013 lineup. I wonder if it's a software issue in the firmware that is not allowing game mode to work correctly on this model when engaged?

They have been contacted, but their paraphrased answer was "gamers aren't a concern". Apparently a few engineers have shown some some interest, but they don't have the power to implement changes. The Panasonic insider over at HDJ said he once brought it up in a meeting and was reprimanded for wasting time, so he won't be making an attempt this round.There are two reasons this model is slower than other models, the CPU and smart features. The single-core CPU was designed by a 3rd party to save cost, so it's actually slower than the ST/GT50. You add in the smart features and you've got yourself a bogged down CPU. The S60 avoids this issue by being completely bloat free. Our best hope at this point is either a firmware upgrade (unlikely), a custom firmware (unlikely), or a hack to put the S60 firmware on the ST60 (unlikely and you'd lose image controls). Maybe Panasonic has a change of heart and disables smart features while game mode is enabled, but they've got too much invested in those just to toss them aside.
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post #794 of 1321 Old 06-07-2013, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

They have been contacted, but their paraphrased answer was "gamers aren't a concern". Apparently a few engineers have shown some some interest, but they don't have the power to implement changes. The Panasonic insider over at HDJ said he once brought it up in a meeting and was reprimanded for wasting time, so he won't be making an attempt this round.There are two reasons this model is slower than other models, the CPU and smart features. The single-core CPU was designed by a 3rd party to save cost, so it's actually slower than the ST/GT50. You add in the smart features and you've got yourself a bogged down CPU. The S60 avoids this issue by being completely bloat free. Our best hope at this point is either a firmware upgrade (unlikely), a custom firmware (unlikely), or a hack to put the S60 firmware on the ST60 (unlikely and you'd lose image controls). Maybe Panasonic has a change of heart and disables smart features while game mode is enabled, but they've got too much invested in those just to toss them aside.

The Panasonic Insider didn't say he's brought this particular issue up, only that he's brought up issues like this before and has had problems, so he picks his battles and won't be picking this one. In a separate post though he did say that their firmware people do pay attention to comments by CNET so maybe CNET's recent comments that they'd not recommend the ST60 for gaming may inspire something. Or not.

The firmware hack seems like the most possible solution and while it's unlikely somebody will do it, these TVs are selling like crazy. Gotta think that somebody will try.
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post #795 of 1321 Old 06-07-2013, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

They have been contacted, but their paraphrased answer was "gamers aren't a concern". Apparently a few engineers have shown some some interest, but they don't have the power to implement changes. The Panasonic insider over at HDJ said he once brought it up in a meeting and was reprimanded for wasting time, so he won't be making an attempt this round.There are two reasons this model is slower than other models, the CPU and smart features. The single-core CPU was designed by a 3rd party to save cost, so it's actually slower than the ST/GT50. You add in the smart features and you've got yourself a bogged down CPU. The S60 avoids this issue by being completely bloat free. Our best hope at this point is either a firmware upgrade (unlikely), a custom firmware (unlikely), or a hack to put the S60 firmware on the ST60 (unlikely and you'd lose image controls). Maybe Panasonic has a change of heart and disables smart features while game mode is enabled, but they've got too much invested in those just to toss them aside.

That's a shame because I bet their engineers could easily figure a work around that would give ok visual quality with decent input lag and the ST60 would be a recommended gamers top choice. I applaud any company that is working on low input lag and fast motion in their displays but then again I'm a moderate gamer. Thanks for your response because I was hoping maybe there was a work around like the Samsung PC labeling trick but since there doesn't seem to be I will look at the VT then (though it's above my budget).
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post #796 of 1321 Old 06-07-2013, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Briant73 View Post

That's a shame because I bet their engineers could easily figure a work around that would give ok visual quality with decent input lag and the ST60 would be a recommended gamers top choice. I applaud any company that is working on low input lag and fast motion in their displays but then again I'm a moderate gamer. Thanks for your response because I was hoping maybe there was a work around like the Samsung PC labeling trick but since there doesn't seem to be I will look at the VT then (though it's above my budget).

Why not check out a S60 or a F5500?
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post #797 of 1321 Old 06-07-2013, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Why not check out a S60 or a F5500?

The S60 lacks somethings I would want especially handling daylight and the f5500 do you mean the Samsung led model? You can pm me so we don't get off topic or look in another thread I started -
https://www.avsforum.com/t/1475868/need-help-finding-a-60-65-display#post_23397818
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post #798 of 1321 Old 06-07-2013, 01:53 PM
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He is referencing the Samsung PN50F5500 which is the Samsung plasma equivalent of the S60 but with 3D and more robust smart features. Reason it is comparable to the S60 but not the ST60 is because it does not have an AR filter.
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post #799 of 1321 Old 06-07-2013, 03:59 PM
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10 Dollers cost saving, and such a big fuzz. Or a 0 Dollar clever programming of completly shutting of this f... home Screen.

Yes, they should just bring an update to disable that Home Screen in Game Mode.

But:

Did anybody watch the Panasonic CES 2013 Show. I recommend seriously watching it, because than you will understand what a Company Panasonic is. Most of the Show they talk about home Screen, drawing Pictures and Shopping on your TV!! Just watch it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpR6or4DM3U

Ok, and regarding Input Lag. On my YouTube channel i published some ST30 vs. ST60 comparison Videos, so you can see how a 35ms vs. 75ms Plasma or LCD compares. Because all of those: How does my tv compare to the ST60, questions are uselss. Check the Video: What you see is a difference from 30 to 40 MS = S60 vs. ST60.

Because I also do Retro gaming, and I have some Sony Trinitron CRT, and Amiga RGB Monitors, I hooked up my PS3 with RGB Scart to my 2000 Sony Trinitron Model and made a comparison Video.

I was shocked how fast Shooting was on the Trinitron, but when you do moving, it feels quite the same. Maybe the CRT is very fast with Little Change of the Picture but I really dont know. Check it out for your self.

Just Off Topic: I really could see that the CRT has no Chance in black Levels vs. the Plasma, but as I was gaming on the Little Screen, the colours and the look was great. When you start Killzone 3 there are some red graphics above the black, on the crt you could see them all. Even I could not film it properly.

That is what I love on Plasma, it has that natural CRT like Look. No LCD can provide that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4GyF33XUeg



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post #800 of 1321 Old 06-07-2013, 08:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, going from CRT to the ST60 is an absolutely huge eye opener of how bad the ST60 is. No one expects a plasma to perform as well as a CRT but we don't expect it to be so drastically different. I can see a huge difference even in the camera panning. If you were to further test, I would suggest testing out using shurcool's multi monitor tool or try a classic gaming like Ninja Gaiden for the NES on the CRT vs the ST60. You won't just see it but also feel it, too. Killzone is sadly a far too laggy game to really get a feel for how responsive and unresponsive a game can be under lagless to laggy displays, where as a game like Ninja Gaiden is meant for instant response.

Try a side by side session of the first level of Ninja Gaiden. In fact, I'd say, play it on the ST60 first, see if you can get used to it, and then hit it on the CRT. Then go back to the ST60, and then play them in clone mode. Once you're adjusted to the ST60, and then playing the game on the CRT, you'll easily feel it. You don't even need to see the delay, you should feel it in the first 10 seconds of gameplay when jumping walls or attacking enemies, especially the quick spawn ones that rush you.
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post #801 of 1321 Old 06-07-2013, 08:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by connmen View Post

He is referencing the Samsung PN50F5500 which is the Samsung plasma equivalent of the S60 but with 3D and more robust smart features. Reason it is comparable to the S60 but not the ST60 is because it does not have an AR filter.

Just because it doesn't have an AR doesn't mean it isn't comparable. Feature wise, they're comparable. 3D, good black levels (people are measuring the F5500 to be on par with the F8500 and ST60) good picture features, and so on. PC mode will disable some image settings but the F8500 still looks great without them, and I'm sure the F5500 will, too. PC mode also has sub 40 ms lag, so if you want 3D and want to game, the F5500 is probably the best TV you can get, and it's even cheaper than the ST60. I would just recommend not looking at the 60" F5500 because supposedly that's the one with the pentile display, but the 50 and 65 aren't.
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post #802 of 1321 Old 06-07-2013, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Bruce2019 View Post

I was shocked how fast Shooting was on the Trinitron, but when you do moving, it feels quite the same. Maybe the CRT is very fast with Little Change of the Picture but I really dont know.

The large deadzone with the dualshock sticks is well known and is the reason you don't notice it so much with the movement test. A better demonstration would be to spin the camera with the stick hard-locked (so that the ingame point of view is spinning on the spot) and then release the stick.

The trigger test makes the lag very obvious though. Frighteningly so. eek.gif Thanks for the demo.
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post #803 of 1321 Old 06-07-2013, 10:21 PM
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Who has tried Forza 4, or a driving game. Can you notice the lag??
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post #804 of 1321 Old 06-07-2013, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Just because it doesn't have an AR doesn't mean it isn't comparable. Feature wise, they're comparable. 3D, good black levels (people are measuring the F5500 to be on par with the F8500 and ST60) good picture features, and so on. PC mode will disable some image settings but the F8500 still looks great without them, and I'm sure the F5500 will, too. PC mode also has sub 40 ms lag, so if you want 3D and want to game, the F5500 is probably the best TV you can get, and it's even cheaper than the ST60. I would just recommend not looking at the 60" F5500 because supposedly that's the one with the pentile display, but the 50 and 65 aren't.

Yes the 60" F5500 is most definitely pentile, I just went and confirmed myself today. It looks borderline 720p (if not worse), you definitely want to steer clear unless you view from a great distance. I'd be curious to learn what Samsung is gaining running a production line that produces a single unique panel for a single size and possibly a single model.
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post #805 of 1321 Old 06-08-2013, 12:20 AM - Thread Starter
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I just wonder why only certain models of the F5500 are pentile and certain ones aren't. That's a big mistake IMO.
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post #806 of 1321 Old 06-08-2013, 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by maytime View Post

Thanks for the link, good read. Sounds like I might want to consider the S60 since it doesn't have the smart apps and extra processing routines that affect display lag. I'm still riding out my 6 year old Soxy SXRD till it dies or till the green/yellow hue gets worse enough for me to upgrade. Any word on if Panasonic has a firmware fix for the ST60 display lag in the works?

I just picked an open box 60 inch gt50 at my local best buy for $1200 with 5 year warranty for an extra $330. Picture is gorgeous & gaming is good on it. It has a Panasonic s4 dual core processor plus the infinite black pro panel. Much better than the s60 IMO.
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post #807 of 1321 Old 06-08-2013, 04:29 AM - Thread Starter
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I just picked an open box 60 inch gt50 at my local best buy for $1200 with 5 year warranty for an extra $330. Picture is gorgeous & gaming is good on it. It has a Panasonic s4 dual core processor plus the infinite black pro panel. Much better than the s60 IMO.

Not a bad deal!
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post #808 of 1321 Old 06-08-2013, 03:16 PM
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You mean 50% lag of the ST60, not a third.

Yup, that's what I had said...basically slightly more than half, but saying it was a third was simply a gross exaggeration..
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post #809 of 1321 Old 06-09-2013, 09:56 AM
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I have an ST30 and was just wondering what the input lag with game mode off is since I never use game mode since I care about the PQ too much. From what I've read of this thread:

ST30 game mode on = 35-40ms, ST30 game mode off = ?

ST60 game mode on = 75-80ms, ST60 game mode off = 100ms
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post #810 of 1321 Old 06-10-2013, 04:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Just because it doesn't have an AR doesn't mean it isn't comparable. Feature wise, they're comparable. 3D, good black levels (people are measuring the F5500 to be on par with the F8500 and ST60) good picture features, and so on. PC mode will disable some image settings but the F8500 still looks great without them, and I'm sure the F5500 will, too. PC mode also has sub 40 ms lag, so if you want 3D and want to game, the F5500 is probably the best TV you can get, and it's even cheaper than the ST60. I would just recommend not looking at the 60" F5500 because supposedly that's the one with the pentile display, but the 50 and 65 aren't.

That whole black level thing is pretty hard to believe. Can you link to where you read that? I was in a local best buy Saturday and the f5300 was next to a Panny S60 (not ST) and I noticed the black bars were darker on the s60 and we all know the ST60 > S60 in black level performance. The F5300 if I'm not mistaken is just an f5500 w/o 3D.

I agree stay away from the F5500 w/ pentile displays; they were gross! Granted I was close to it but having one right next to a tv w/ a normal RGB the difference was night and day.
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