Official ST60 input lag thread - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post


My current Samsung plasma has poor motion resolution (something like 840/1080 lines rendered). When things get hectic in my games (or I turn quickly), it looks very similar to V-sync tearing. Are you sure this might not be what you're referring too?

Definitely not. cool.gif
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post #62 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 02:16 PM
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Definitely not. cool.gif

Well it does give the illusion of "slow-down" if that's more in-tune with what you're experiencing. Curious, which plasma are you specifically referring to that feels slower?
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post #63 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 02:26 PM
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Well it does give the illusion of "slow-down" if that's more in-tune with what you're experiencing. Curious, which plasma are you specifically referring do that feels slower?

Yeah, that just doesn't really sound like the same thing I'm talking about. Basically, you can play on the higher input lag just fine, the controls should feel relatively "instant". You can get used to playing on it and won't have any issues, your game-play will not suffer as a result of input lag. However, when you switch to something with less input lag, it just "feels" better. Turning, aiming, moving etc. just feels smoother and more fluid. You would never notice the difference though if you didn't have something else to compare it to. As I said earlier, I have a GT50. The Custom mode on it is nearly identical to the ST60's input lag performance.
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post #64 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by JSpectre88 View Post

Yeah, that just doesn't really sound like the same thing I'm talking about. Basically, you can play on the higher input lag just fine, the controls should feel relatively "instant". You can get used to playing on it and won't have any issues, your game-play will not suffer as a result of input lag. However, when you switch to something with less input lag, it just "feels" better. Turning, aiming, moving etc. just feels smoother and more fluid. You would never notice the difference though if you didn't have something else to compare it to. As I said earlier, I have a GT50. The Custom mode on it is nearly identical to the ST60's input lag performance.

i think this is a great way to describe how input-lag is perceived.
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post #65 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 03:57 PM
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These are my results. Again, you can see it go from as "low" as 80 to as high as 100+. No picture settings were changed during testing. Game mode is on, every processing element I can think of is turned off.

First test using flatpanels.dk input lag tester: Images show 80 ms, 80 ms, 85 ms, 100 ms



If there is a way to get more accurate tests, please let me know, maybe my methods are poor. I captured the stopwatch using video mode on my camera, trying to keep the displays as horizontal with each other as possible. I then paused, and browsed through the video to find clear detailed timings. Other than that, I don't know what else I could do. Again, no settings were changed, and as you can see, I get variable amounts of display lag from my trust old CRT.

Edit: The only thing I can't control is the displays running at different Hz. My CRT is running at 75 Hz and the Panny is 60 Hz. However, vsync is disabled.

The transparent windows suggest you are using a Windows Aero theme. Change to Windows Basic theme and see if you're able to hit lower values.
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post #66 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 04:23 PM
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The transparent windows suggest you are using a Windows Aero theme. Change to Windows Basic theme and see if you're able to hit lower values.

Also be aware that you cannot disable vsync at all if you're on Windows 8, not even by picking a supposedly non-Aero theme.
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post #67 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 04:31 PM
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OK, so I game about 40% of my TV usage. PS3 and XBOX 360. Not many online shooters or FPS, but I will play a few (Killzone) but stuff like Metal Gear, God of War, fighting games somewhat, and online Assassin's creed matches...so mainly action & stuff like that. I currently play on my S1 plasma, but on Cinema mode (they said "game mode" makes no difference), which I've read has approx 30ms of lag. Bottom line it for me, will I notice this difference? Will it make playing say, Tekken Tag 2 unplayable? This set seems to meet my needs in every area but this one! And that comparison video makes the lag look horrible.

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post #68 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 04:36 PM
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OK, so I game about 40% of my TV usage. PS3 and XBOX 360. Not many online shooters or FPS, but I will play a few (Killzone) but stuff like Metal Gear, God of War, fighting games somewhat, and online Assassin's creed matches...so mainly action & stuff like that. I currently play on my S1 plasma, but on Cinema mode (they said "game mode" makes no difference), which I've read has approx 30ms of lag. Bottom line it for me, will I notice this difference? Will it make playing say, Tekken Tag 2 unplayable? This set seems to meet my needs in every area but this one! And that comparison video makes the lag look horrible.

Nothing will be "unplayable". wink.gif

It might feel a tiny bit worse at first, but you will adapt quickly and it should feel perfectly fine.
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post #69 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
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At 30fps, wouldn't that difference equate to a 1.5 frame lag, or 5% of a second slower? Is the human eye even capable of such a distinction? I'm not taking sides, but I feel with all other factors considered (wireless controller, network latency, A/V receiver) we might just be splitting hairs here (with the exception of older side scrollers). For example, the human eye blinks at 300ms and you can barely notice that. But you can honestly tell that one display is slower than another by 6x the speed of "a blink of an eye"? I've yet to watch the youtube videos (blocked at work), but if there's a very noticeable difference, there's no way it can be solely caused by the display latencies. Does the video give details of the camera and frame-rate being used? Is there a side-by-side comparison or could there be an opportunity for the uploader to manipulate the setup? Is the fact the S60 has a 600hz drive (easily divisible by camera speeds of 30/60fps) vs the ST60 2500hz drive (not a factor of 30 or 60) taken into consideration? I'm just trying to look at this from an objective measurement perspective.

Can't think of it like that. Each frame the TV renders is 16.6 ms. So, a game running at 30 fps is updating the display at 37.2 ms, or 2 frames for each "frame" the game renders. This is why games at 30 fps have an input lag of 133 ms vs 60 fps 66 ms. 30 fps games can render 2x the detail but at a cost of 2x the input latency. So if you're playing a game at 30 fps, that means you're getting at minimum, 133 ms of input lag. That's just native to the framerate. Any post a game does can add latency, but lets use a best case scenario. Lets say the TV has a 75 ms of input lag, as measured on HDTVTest. This means we're at 208 ms of input lag, just on a 30 fps game. If it's a 60 fps game, then it's about 135 ms of input lag, which is how a 30 fps game feels. Which is probably why I am not noticing such a problem on the modern games I'm playing, because Darksiders and Dark Souls for example, were made for 30 fps, but are running at 60 fps on my PC yet they feel as they should or would on console once you factor in the display lag. Console version or native 30 fps is going to feel noticeably worse.
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I've got a 60 inch ST60 on pre-order right now, but this thread has me a bit concerned about it. Most of the games I play are Action/Adventure games or RPGs; games like Assassin's Creed, Dark Souls, Tales of Vesperia, Darksiders, etc. I know that it won't affect turn based games (like Final Fantasy), but I do worry about how the more Action-y games will play. I also do play Shooters occasionally, but usually only story-based ones like Bioshock or Tomb Raider.

If it's going to be a big deal for those games then I think I may have to cancel and consider something else like a S60. I'm hoping it won't be a big deal since I'm not exactly into competitive FPS games or Fighters.

Do you guys have any advice about those types of games and this level of input lag? Also I'm currently using a pretty old Phillips 42PFL3603D/27 LCD, if it's not any worse than that I think I'll be okay.

PC or console? On PC, I can play those at 60 fps, so they feel "ok" and stuff. On console, Assassin's Creed III felt pretty bad. It feels naturally bad anyway, but it felt more sluggish than usual. The game can barely maintain a stable 30 fps, which means you're going to feel latencies around 200 ms on the ST60. If you're on PC, then it feels like a 30 fps game which is about 133 ms of lag. Best I can describe it.
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Nothing will be "unplayable". wink.gif

It might feel a tiny bit worse at first, but you will adapt quickly and it should feel perfectly fine.

Unplayable, no. You can still play 2D retro games. They aren't as fun though. I instantly felt the difference soon as I booted up Ninja Gaiden via a cycle accurate NES emulator. The CRT felt like how I remembered and I was able to auto pilot through the game, the plasma I was dying constantly. I had a hard time adjusting in this case.

In other games, I was playing fine. Like, Darksiders, or even Dark Souls was ok, BUT, I am playing those on PC at twice the framerate as consoles.
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The transparent windows suggest you are using a Windows Aero theme. Change to Windows Basic theme and see if you're able to hit lower values.

What does that matter when the test was controlled with Aero enabled on both displays? I really don't want to run the test yet again, especially since this was a controlled test and both displays were being rendered to in the same way. Aero is not going to lag one display but not another. That makes no sense.


Quick update! I'm actually getting replies from Panny. They're forwarding the information I provided to their engineers, and asking if the display lag is how the TV is spec'd. If it is, then they'll let us know which user settings specifically will cut back on display lag, such as disabling processing and enabling game mode. If it isn't within spec then obviously they're going to have to look into stuff. The Panny rep also said there are other avenues they can take, too, but first they need to hear back from the engineers.

So, if people love the set but aren't happy about the input lag, then please let them know! If you send in an email, please be sure to specify you want it forwarded to a Techncal Knowledge Specialist who can pass the info along. The more feedback, the better.
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post #70 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

PC or console? On PC, I can play those at 60 fps, so they feel "ok" and stuff. On console, Assassin's Creed III felt pretty bad. It feels naturally bad anyway, but it felt more sluggish than usual. The game can barely maintain a stable 30 fps, which means you're going to feel latencies around 200 ms on the ST60. If you're on PC, then it feels like a 30 fps game which is about 133 ms of lag. Best I can describe it.

I mostly play console games. If you think it's going to feel sluggish playing them on the ST60 then I'm kinda worried again. Hopefully it's something that's fixable with a firmware update.

How much of a downgrade in image quality would it be to go to a S60 if this turns out to be a real problem for me? I can't seem to find any good deals on the 2012 models and that's about all that's in my price range now.
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post #71 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 06:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, if you checked what I typed up above, you'd see the best in response you're going to get on console games is going to be 200+ ms once the math is done. That's a best case scenario with a game not having any frame rate slow downs and no post image processing causing additional input lag.

The S60 will not have a calibration menu in the user menu, and it won't have a 10 point white balance or any gamma adjustments. It won't have the anti glare filter either, which I find very useful as the ST60 actually looks really nice during the day time. You also won't have 3D. The gradients aren't going to be as good either so you will see a bit more color banding than on a ST60. If none of that interests you, then the S60 is probably the way to go.
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post #72 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 06:17 PM
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Replies from panasonic huh? Nice! I was looking into the S60, but damn for $100 more due to EPP I can have the ST60. Ill most likely just hang onto my preorder, hopefully a firmware fix can knock the reading down maybe 25-35 ms. S60 I imagine is a noticeable step down in image quality
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post #73 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 06:26 PM
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So the S60 does *not* have the input lag problem?

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post #74 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by seanfoh View Post

I can't seem to find any good deals on the 2012 models and that's about all that's in my price range now.

Which 2012 models are you looking for?

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post #75 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 06:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Replies from panasonic huh? Nice! I was looking into the S60, but damn for $100 more due to EPP I can have the ST60. Ill most likely just hang onto my preorder, hopefully a firmware fix can knock the reading down maybe 25-35 ms. S60 I imagine is a noticeable step down in image quality

It's going to take up to a week to hear from the engineers. So, once that's done being escalated, we'll get some news. Who knows what happens then. Hopefully they don't forget us. Best you can do, is voice your concerns.
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post #76 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 06:42 PM
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Which 2012 models are you looking for?

I was looking for at least a 60 inch ST50 or better, but they seem to be at around at least $100 more than the 2013 models (I pre-ordered the 60 inch ST60 for 1498 at ABT).

I'm probably just over-thinking this and getting premature cold feet. If it's really that noticeable to me I'll just send the TV back and get a different model. It looks like they won't ship out for at least another 11 days. Maybe this will all be resolved by then anyways with people having mailed Panasonic and getting a response about looking into it.

Thanks for putting up with my concerns guys. This also might not even be a big deal at all either way if the next generation of consoles doesn't run everything as poorly as this one does.
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post #77 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 09:14 PM
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Sure nothing is altogether UNplayable... I mean you could technically PLAY w/o video feedback at all.


/Mental gymnastics champion-
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post #78 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 09:30 PM
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Sure nothing is altogether UNplayable... I mean you could technically PLAY w/o video feedback at all.


/Mental gymnastics champion-
Nice one.
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post #79 of 1326 Old 04-11-2013, 09:37 PM
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Sure nothing is altogether UNplayable... I mean you could technically PLAY w/o video feedback at all.


/Mental gymnastics champion-

There's a blind kid out there who finished Ocarina of Time, with a bit of help from the gaming community. He memorized where everything was.

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post #80 of 1326 Old 04-12-2013, 12:14 AM
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What does that matter when the test was controlled with Aero enabled on both displays? I really don't want to run the test yet again, especially since this was a controlled test and both displays were being rendered to in the same way. Aero is not going to lag one display but not another. That makes no sense.

Only a suggestion in the interest of eliminating all possibilities and potentials. There are many examples in software that don't necessarily seem to make logical sense (be they bugs, oversights, or nonsensical design). I won't pretend to know the inner workings of Windows or graphics drivers, but there is a (however remote) possibility they could be treating the primary and secondary display differently depending on whether Aero is active or not. For example, buffering only one of them when it's on, and treating them both the same when it's off. Why they might do this, your guess is as good as mine. Perhaps very low spec systems couldn't handle real time Aero cloning, so they just buffer the primary instance and dump it to the secondary a frame behind.
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post #81 of 1326 Old 04-12-2013, 01:14 AM
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I don't own the an ST60, but I think I would like to if the input lag issue was not present.

After seeing this email panasonic link I found in the main ST60 thread, I sent an email asking if there was something they could do to eliminate the tested high lag. http://shop.panasonic.com/ecom/support/contact-us?t=email

If there are any other professional tests that have been done, can somebody link them here in this thread.

I'll post this one since it has not been posted in this thread yet. To me this report is the best report I have seen on the ST60's.
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panasonic-tx-p42st60-201303312779.htm?page=Performance

"Console Gaming

There had to be some bad news, right? Here it is: although gaming is still enjoyable on the ST60, its input lag is higher than the outgoing ST50. The fastest configuration is to enable the “Game Mode” and make sure that “1080p Pixel Direct” is disabled. Under this configuration – which is the fastest we could squeeze out of the ST60 – we clocked the TXP42ST60B in as lagging by anywhere between 47ms and 62ms, using the high-speed camera measurement method. Enlisting the more concrete services of the Leo Bodnar Lag Tester, the measurement came out as 74.5ms (it also clocks our old ST50 in at about 47ms, the large discrepancy between this result and our camera method being something we have some theories about, but are still investigating).

As you can see, measuring input lag is not always an exact process, so to get a better understanding, we played some first-person shooter (FPS) games through an HDMI splitter, simultaneously feeding our old 50ST50 as well as the new P42ST60 (by the way, we checked to the best of our ability to guarantee that the HDMI splitter wasn’t adding its own lag, and didn’t feel that it was adding any). The take-home message should be this: this year’s ST is definitely slower for gamers, although exactly how much is difficult to determine.

We tried everything we could to reduce the TX-P42ST60′s lag, including cycling through picture modes, enabling/disabling “1080p Pixel Direct”, changing the “HDMI Content Type” mode… but 47ms was the lowest number we could get. This by no means makes games unplayable, but the buttery-smooth, blink and you’ll miss it responsiveness of the ST50 is not here. We just hope that the step-up series – the GT60, VT60/VT65, and ZT60/ZT65 – can improve on this… although it’d be the first time a higher-end model was had less lag than the mid-ranger so we’re not hugely hopeful. Still, those higher-up models do feature the new Hexa-Core processor… so perhaps the ST60′s slightly decreased gaming responsiveness will be a one-off.

If you’re using a PC with the TX-P42ST60B, you can get full 4:4:4 chroma by using the [1080p Pixel Direct] mode, which on its own will result in large edge halos. These can be defeated by setting the “HDMI Content Type” for that input to “Photo”, although this may have an impact on colour accuracy with some content (it appears to make no difference for RGB content from computers, but changes colour decoding with YCbCr video, like what is commonly output by set-top boxes and disc players).
"
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post #82 of 1326 Old 04-12-2013, 03:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Only a suggestion in the interest of eliminating all possibilities and potentials. There are many examples in software that don't necessarily seem to make logical sense (be they bugs, oversights, or nonsensical design). I won't pretend to know the inner workings of Windows or graphics drivers, but there is a (however remote) possibility they could be treating the primary and secondary display differently depending on whether Aero is active or not. For example, buffering only one of them when it's on, and treating them both the same when it's off. Why they might do this, your guess is as good as mine. Perhaps very low spec systems couldn't handle real time Aero cloning, so they just buffer the primary instance and dump it to the secondary a frame behind.

My plasma is set up as my primary display. I am not really sure disabling Aero will do anything, but I guess I can give it a try when I have some free time.
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post #83 of 1326 Old 04-13-2013, 03:42 PM
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This by no means makes games unplayable, but the buttery-smooth, blink and you’ll miss it responsiveness of the ST50 is not here.
If anything, this should be the takeaway line from that long quote. Twitch shooters/platformers/fighters need not apply. Everything else? Should be just fine.
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post #84 of 1326 Old 04-13-2013, 09:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Unfortunately I think I'm going to have to return the set soon. I'm running out of return period and I'm not going to twiddle my thumbs on the issue and HOPE that Panny releases a fix, if that's even possible. I also have that damn pink blob that I see every time I visit this site and others, so that's another reason to take it back. I'm just not sure which set I'm going to get in exchange frown.gif This is my 2nd Panny I've had to take back for problems.

Any suggestions would be welcome. Anyone know if the VT60 is going to come in 50 inch?
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post #85 of 1326 Old 04-13-2013, 09:50 PM
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Unfortunately I think I'm going to have to return the set soon. I'm running out of return period and I'm not going to twiddle my thumbs on the issue and HOPE that Panny releases a fix, if that's even possible. I also have that damn pink blob that I see every time I visit this site and others, so that's another reason to take it back. I'm just not sure which set I'm going to get in exchange frown.gif This is my 2nd Panny I've had to take back for problems.



Any suggestions would be welcome. Anyone know if the VT60 is going to come in 50 inch?

Smallest VT and ZT will be 55 inches

The TC-P50ST60 is Panasonic's top of the line 50 inch plasma for 2013/14 lineup. The VT60 and ZT60 series do not include a 50” model, leaving it up to the ST60 to hold the spot. It's got fantastic picture quality and a feature set worthy of the best 50 inch plasma. The Infinite Black Pro panel and 2500 focused-field drive create an an smooth and crisp image with deep blacks. Active 3D enables excellent 3D playback on the ST60. Panasonic really put together a plasma TV that will be hard to beat in the value category.

http://reviews.*******************.com/panasonic-plasma-tv/panasonic-tcp50st60.html

Wont let me attach the link, but my source is plasma tv buying guide .com

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post #86 of 1326 Old 04-13-2013, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by supermandlb View Post

Smallest VT and ZT will be 55 inches

The TC-P50ST60 is Panasonic's top of the line 50 inch plasma for 2013/14 lineup. The VT60 and ZT60 series do not include a 50” model, leaving it up to the ST60 to hold the spot. It's got fantastic picture quality and a feature set worthy of the best 50 inch plasma. The Infinite Black Pro panel and 2500 focused-field drive create an an smooth and crisp image with deep blacks. Active 3D enables excellent 3D playback on the ST60. Panasonic really put together a plasma TV that will be hard to beat in the value category.

http://reviews.*******************.com/panasonic-plasma-tv/panasonic-tcp50st60.html

Wont let me attach the link, but my source is plasma tv buying guide .com
Haha, you do realize that he's returning it because of the lag, not the PQ, right? rolleyes.gif
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post #87 of 1326 Old 04-13-2013, 09:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Damn, so I'm stuck with the "best" being a ST60. Great frown.gif That means the VT60 is well out of my price range. since the extra 5 inches skyrockets the price. I'm so disappointed.
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post #88 of 1326 Old 04-13-2013, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Damn, so I'm stuck with the "best" being a ST60. Great frown.gif That means the VT60 is well out of my price range. since the extra 5 inches skyrockets the price. I'm so disappointed.
I'm still trying to figure out why the GT60 isn't being sold in the U.S. this year, honestly. A shame there's now no in-between the ST and VT.
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post #89 of 1326 Old 04-13-2013, 10:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I know! Because I'd definitely upgrade if it meant better performance, but not at an extra $1000 for an extra 5 inches I can't really use.
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post #90 of 1326 Old 04-13-2013, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by El Matadurr View Post

Haha, you do realize that he's returning it because of the lag, not the PQ, right? rolleyes.gif

Yeah, I really only meant to quote the beginning... Referring to the size of the VT and ZT
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There is no TV too BIG, only rooms too small
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