Originally Posted by Stump909
At 30fps, wouldn't that difference equate to a 1.5 frame lag, or 5% of a second slower? Is the human eye even capable of such a distinction? I'm not taking sides, but I feel with all other factors considered (wireless controller, network latency, A/V receiver) we might just be splitting hairs here (with the exception of older side scrollers). For example, the human eye blinks at 300ms and you can barely notice that. But you can honestly tell that one display is slower than another by 6x the speed of "a blink of an eye"? I've yet to watch the youtube videos (blocked at work), but if there's a very noticeable difference, there's no way it can be solely caused by the display latencies. Does the video give details of the camera and frame-rate being used? Is there a side-by-side comparison or could there be an opportunity for the uploader to manipulate the setup? Is the fact the S60 has a 600hz drive (easily divisible by camera speeds of 30/60fps) vs the ST60 2500hz drive (not a factor of 30 or 60) taken into consideration? I'm just trying to look at this from an objective measurement perspective.
Can't think of it like that. Each frame the TV renders is 16.6 ms. So, a game running at 30 fps is updating the display at 37.2 ms, or 2 frames for each "frame" the game renders. This is why games at 30 fps have an input lag of 133 ms vs 60 fps 66 ms. 30 fps games can render 2x the detail but at a cost of 2x the input latency. So if you're playing a game at 30 fps, that means you're getting at minimum, 133 ms of input lag. That's just native to the framerate. Any post a game does can add latency, but lets use a best case scenario. Lets say the TV has a 75 ms of input lag, as measured on HDTVTest. This means we're at 208 ms of input lag, just on a 30 fps game. If it's a 60 fps game, then it's about 135 ms of input lag, which is how a 30 fps game feels. Which is probably why I am not noticing such a problem on the modern games I'm playing, because Darksiders and Dark Souls for example, were made for 30 fps, but are running at 60 fps on my PC yet they feel as they should or would on console once you factor in the display lag. Console version or native 30 fps is going to feel noticeably worse.
Originally Posted by seanfoh
I've got a 60 inch ST60 on pre-order right now, but this thread has me a bit concerned about it. Most of the games I play are Action/Adventure games or RPGs; games like Assassin's Creed, Dark Souls, Tales of Vesperia, Darksiders, etc. I know that it won't affect turn based games (like Final Fantasy), but I do worry about how the more Action-y games will play. I also do play Shooters occasionally, but usually only story-based ones like Bioshock or Tomb Raider.
If it's going to be a big deal for those games then I think I may have to cancel and consider something else like a S60. I'm hoping it won't be a big deal since I'm not exactly into competitive FPS games or Fighters.
Do you guys have any advice about those types of games and this level of input lag? Also I'm currently using a pretty old Phillips 42PFL3603D/27 LCD, if it's not any worse than that I think I'll be okay.
PC or console? On PC, I can play those at 60 fps, so they feel "ok" and stuff. On console, Assassin's Creed III felt pretty bad. It feels naturally bad anyway, but it felt more sluggish than usual. The game can barely maintain a stable 30 fps, which means you're going to feel latencies around 200 ms on the ST60. If you're on PC, then it feels like a 30 fps game which is about 133 ms of lag. Best I can describe it.
Originally Posted by JSpectre88
Nothing will be "unplayable".
It might feel a tiny bit worse at first, but you will adapt quickly and it should feel perfectly fine.
Unplayable, no. You can still play 2D retro games. They aren't as fun though. I instantly felt the difference soon as I booted up Ninja Gaiden via a cycle accurate NES emulator. The CRT felt like how I remembered and I was able to auto pilot through the game, the plasma I was dying constantly. I had a hard time adjusting in this case.
In other games, I was playing fine. Like, Darksiders, or even Dark Souls was ok, BUT, I am playing those on PC at twice the framerate as consoles.
Originally Posted by Orta
The transparent windows suggest you are using a Windows Aero theme. Change to Windows Basic theme and see if you're able to hit lower values.
What does that matter when the test was controlled with Aero enabled on both displays? I really don't want to run the test yet again, especially since this was a controlled test and both displays were being rendered to in the same way. Aero is not going to lag one display but not another. That makes no sense.
Quick update! I'm actually getting replies from Panny. They're forwarding the information I provided to their engineers, and asking if the display lag is how the TV is spec'd. If it is, then they'll let us know which user settings specifically will cut back on display lag, such as disabling processing and enabling game mode. If it isn't within spec then obviously they're going to have to look into stuff. The Panny rep also said there are other avenues they can take, too, but first they need to hear back from the engineers.
So, if people love the set but aren't happy about the input lag, then please let them know! If you send in an email, please be sure to specify you want it forwarded to a Techncal Knowledge Specialist who can pass the info along. The more feedback, the better.