Official Panasonic VT60/VT65 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 543 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #16261 of 17374 Old 09-27-2015, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by jnnt29 View Post
My wife said to me today, does this mean we are going to bring the Panasonic to the recycle center next month? I don't know if I can do it!
How much did ST give for the warranty? Hopefully the full value if you haven't filed a claim before now. I have a ST warranty and have wonder how they handle a claim where the tv's not repairable.
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post #16262 of 17374 Old 09-27-2015, 08:34 PM
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@jnnt

In the past this sort of issue has been caused by a loose connection. Did anyone consider/check that?


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post #16263 of 17374 Old 09-28-2015, 06:23 AM
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Interesting....
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post #16264 of 17374 Old 09-28-2015, 07:05 AM
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How much did ST give for the warranty? Hopefully the full value if you haven't filed a claim before now. I have a ST warranty and have wonder how they handle a claim where the tv's not repairable.

Square Trade was very good and initially wanted to replace my VT60 with a Sony 1080P and the picture was no where near the VT. I explained the difference in picture quality and asked if they would give me the value of the Sony 1080p set and I would find a TV to my liking. Square Trade actually is sending me a check for the total amount that I paid. I can not say enough how professional they were to work with in my case.

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@jnnt

In the past this sort of issue has been caused by a loose connection. Did anyone consider/check that?





http://youtu.be/CpWZTnAXbLg

http://youtu.be/nfryPAspoyk

I did remove the cover and check for loose connections after seeing the same YouTube videos and confirmed that the panel was bad by doing the mirror test in the service menu.

My set up: Samsung UN82nu8000 LED TV, Marantz SR7012, Emotiva XPA3, Sony UBP-X800
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https://www.avsforum.com/forum/show....php?t=1227096

Last edited by jnnt29; 09-28-2015 at 07:06 AM. Reason: updated
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post #16265 of 17374 Old 09-28-2015, 08:18 AM
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I did remove the cover and check for loose connections after seeing the same YouTube videos and confirmed that the panel was bad by doing the mirror test in the service menu.
Oh well, such a pity it's gone. I hope you have better luck with your new TV.
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post #16266 of 17374 Old 09-28-2015, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by jnnt29 View Post
Square Trade was very good and initially wanted to replace my VT60 with a Sony 1080P and the picture was no where near the VT. I explained the difference in picture quality and asked if they would give me the value of the Sony 1080p set and I would find a TV to my liking. Square Trade actually is sending me a check for the total amount that I paid. I can not say enough how professional they were to work with in my case.




I did remove the cover and check for loose connections after seeing the same YouTube videos and confirmed that the panel was bad by doing the mirror test in the service menu.
Similar situation for me, except BB is giving me $2k in store credit. Paid $2,300, but it's still fair. Probably biting the bullet and going with OLED.

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post #16267 of 17374 Old 09-28-2015, 08:26 AM
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Similar situation for me, except BB is giving me $2k in store credit. Paid $2,300, but it's still fair. Probably biting the bullet and going with OLED.

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They were more then fair. I only wish the LG 1080p OLED was in a 65" screen. I will surely miss this TVs picture.

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post #16268 of 17374 Old 09-28-2015, 08:52 AM
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They were more then fair. I only wish the LG 1080p OLED was in a 65" screen. I will surely miss this TVs picture.
Same here. But OLED is calling.

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post #16269 of 17374 Old 09-28-2015, 09:05 AM
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I was obsessing over the sharpness setting again last night. Honestly, the more I experiment with it, the less able I seem to be to see what it's doing! Whereas previously I thought it looked dreadful on the default 50 setting, I am now tending toward the view that it's not that bad. Maybe a loss of sanity. I do not know.

What I can say is that the fine lines on the AVSHD overscan pattern do look extremely weird and bluish when sharpness is at 50. This is, of course, not exactly news, but when I was Googling about it I found post 1206 here:

http://forums.hdtvtest.co.uk/index.php?topic=7670.1200

Which is pretty strange and does not appear to be related to the sharpness setting being too high. And then again, in this review there is a lengthy section on the slightly odd chroma processing of the 65" VT60:

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panas...ge=Performance

I would appear that the chroma detail is softened vertically, something which is apparently also true of Panasonic's LCDs from the following year. There are some other oddities about Panasonic's image processing. For example, with regard to the ZT, there is this:

"Actually, the ZT65′s frequency response isn’t flat either: bizarrely, it still applies just a tiny bit of gain to high frequencies in the image, and also appears to be doing selective processing to low frequency areas (which causes an odd “four leaf clover” shape to appear on a luma zone plate test card)."

Source: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panas...ge=Performance

So where am I going with this? Well, there is a whole bunch of weird stuff going on at the level of individual pixels. Now, this may not be very visible when watching actual content, but it is enough to make me think we should be cautious about interpreting sharpness pattern results.

That the fine line pattern goes blue might be a result of some sharpening being applied. I would say that is the most likely explanation. But it is also possible that this blue blurring is actually not caused by the sharpness control itself, but is caused by some other bit of image processing and is then revealed by changing the sharpness setting.

When you have this strange behaviour, it is pretty difficult to be absolutely sure how to set things up. For example, you might cure the fine line issue by setting sharpness at zero only to introduce some other weirdness on a different pattern to the one you are looking at. E.g., that 2 line pattern mentioned in forum thread I linked to.

The extent to which this matters during actual viewing, I would not vouch to say. After all, we are talking about fine detail. But it's been nagging away at me for a while now. I mean, why would Panasonic by default have the sharpness setting wrong in every single picture mode, including THX Cinema and the purist ISF modes? Why are they getting a colourist in to advise them on sharpness for the CZ950? It all seems a bit bizarre to me. After decades making TVs, you'd think they would know how to map pixels to source one to one!

Maybe I should whack the sharpness on 50 and leave it there for a week or so to try to get used to it. Would anyone like to join me in that experiment?

Cheers!
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post #16270 of 17374 Old 09-28-2015, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by fluxo View Post
I was obsessing over the sharpness setting again last night. Honestly, the more I experiment with it, the less able I seem to be to see what it's doing! Whereas previously I thought it looked dreadful on the default 50 setting, I am now tending toward the view that it's not that bad. Maybe a loss of sanity. I do not know.

What I can say is that the fine lines on the AVSHD overscan pattern do look extremely weird and bluish when sharpness is at 50. This is, of course, not exactly news, but when I was Googling about it I found post 1206 here:

http://forums.hdtvtest.co.uk/index.php?topic=7670.1200

Which is pretty strange and does not appear to be related to the sharpness setting being too high. And then again, in this review there is a lengthy section on the slightly odd chroma processing of the 65" VT60:

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panas...ge=Performance

I would appear that the chroma detail is softened vertically, something which is apparently also true of Panasonic's LCDs from the following year. There are some other oddities about Panasonic's image processing. For example, with regard to the ZT, there is this:

"Actually, the ZT65′s frequency response isn’t flat either: bizarrely, it still applies just a tiny bit of gain to high frequencies in the image, and also appears to be doing selective processing to low frequency areas (which causes an odd “four leaf clover” shape to appear on a luma zone plate test card)."

Source: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panas...ge=Performance

So where am I going with this? Well, there is a whole bunch of weird stuff going on at the level of individual pixels. Now, this may not be very visible when watching actual content, but it is enough to make me think we should be cautious about interpreting sharpness pattern results.

That the fine line pattern goes blue might be a result of some sharpening being applied. I would say that is the most likely explanation. But it is also possible that this blue blurring is actually not caused by the sharpness control itself, but is caused by some other bit of image processing and is then revealed by changing the sharpness setting.

When you have this strange behaviour, it is pretty difficult to be absolutely sure how to set things up. For example, you might cure the fine line issue by setting sharpness at zero only to introduce some other weirdness on a different pattern to the one you are looking at. E.g., that 2 line pattern mentioned in forum thread I linked to.

The extent to which this matters during actual viewing, I would not vouch to say. After all, we are talking about fine detail. But it's been nagging away at me for a while now. I mean, why would Panasonic by default have the sharpness setting wrong in every single picture mode, including THX Cinema and the purist ISF modes? Why are they getting a colourist in to advise them on sharpness for the CZ950? It all seems a bit bizarre to me. After decades making TVs, you'd think they would know how to map pixels to source one to one!

Maybe I should whack the sharpness on 50 and leave it there for a week or so to try to get used to it. Would anyone like to join me in that experiment?

Cheers!
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post #16271 of 17374 Old 09-28-2015, 12:43 PM
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Even the pro calibrators do not agree on what is the correct sharpness setting.
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post #16272 of 17374 Old 09-28-2015, 07:47 PM
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I'm under the impression sharpness is set based on personal preference. I think Chad asked my preference when he calibrated my ZT. But could be wrong.
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post #16273 of 17374 Old 09-28-2015, 08:13 PM
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Even the pro calibrators do not agree on what is the correct sharpness setting.
Isf pro calibrators. Are scam, then?

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post #16274 of 17374 Old 09-28-2015, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by jnnt29 View Post
Square Trade was very good and initially wanted to replace my VT60 with a Sony 1080P and the picture was no where near the VT. I explained the difference in picture quality and asked if they would give me the value of the Sony 1080p set and I would find a TV to my liking. Square Trade actually is sending me a check for the total amount that I paid. I can not say enough how professional they were to work with in my case.
Thanks. Glad to hear that's how they handled your claim. I hope I don't need to use my warranty. Four Panasonic plasma TVs and never needed to use it. One is still going after 10+ years. And still has a great picture too. Keeping my fingers crossed.
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post #16275 of 17374 Old 09-28-2015, 11:09 PM
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The VTs are plenty sharp enough to not have to use the sharpness setting at all. When your white balance is correct, the level of details especially on human faces is incredible.
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post #16276 of 17374 Old 09-28-2015, 11:12 PM
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sharpness to ZERO, then calibrate properly...

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post #16277 of 17374 Old 09-29-2015, 10:42 AM
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Isf pro calibrators. Are scam, then?
No. What I would say is that determining the correct sharpness setting is a much less technically sophisticated process than, say, adjusting gamma/colour. It is not a case of objectively measuring something with an instrument, but rather making judgements based on looking at patterns.

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The VTs are plenty sharp enough to not have to use the sharpness setting at all. When your white balance is correct, the level of details especially on human faces is incredible.
To not use the sharpness setting would entail leaving it alone. In which case it would be at its default setting of 50. I'm presuming that is not what you mean.

There is no "off" option for the sharpness control. There is a value range from 0 to 100. It is a matter of interpretation that 0 represents the neutral value, which could be viewed as equivalent to "off", but that is no more than opinion.

Note: if the hdtvtest reviews are to be believed, the VT60s always apply a certain amount of undefeatable sharpening. Apparently, if you look closely at fine patterns you will see what looks like ringing, which may be interpreted as artefacts produced by the application of "high frequency gain".

Bizarrely, these displays also blur colour vertically when the sharpness setting is at zero. It's an unfortunate fact that these displays are not really accurate at the level of pixels and there is always some artificial manipulation of fine detail going on.

Whether or not that really matters is a different question. Even if they are not true to the source in all respects, the VT60s can nevertheless produce a lovely picture.

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sharpness to ZERO, then calibrate properly...
You may say that and there are many others who agree with you. It is, in fact, the setting I have been using for the last 2 years when not experimenting briefly with other values. However, there are others who choose a different value. Chad B has chosen sharpness at 16 when calibrating some displays for forum members.

I guess there are a couple of different ways of thinking about this. You could nudge up the sharpness setting until you see the first artefacts and then back off a level. In that case you might end up with a sharpness setting of 16. But then if you get that you could say, would Panasonic really set the neutral value at 16? I mean, that's kind of a weird number to choose. Surely more natural choices would be either 0 or the midpoint. And if you believe it is zero, then you might reject, say, 1 even if you can't actually see any ill-effects when 1 is chosen. This is a guessing game.

There is also the question of why Panasonic would by default always use sharpness 50. What one needs to understand is that sharpness may impact on other image characteristics. We cannot be sure that, e.g., colour management and sharpness are truly independent in Panasonic's unknown implementation. Having sharpness at what appears to be the optimal value could negatively impact other image characteristics. It kind of makes sense to at least try the settings that Panasonic might have used when they designed and tested the display. We don't know what those settings are, but it is not too much of a stretch to think that Panasonic have been using sharpness setting 50 because that is the default for every picture mode OOTB.

I'll mention in passing that there was a test pattern shown at one of the video shootouts and the Panasonics were the only TVs there to fail that test, in the sense that they were producing strange anomalies that no other sets were. Whether that could have been avoided using less conventional tweaking is something of interest to me. Obviously there are millions of different combinations of control settings and they cannot all be tested. But the sense is that people are tending to adopt very similar traditional approaches and, consequently, there might be something that is being missed. So what I'm trying to do here is explore some of the alternatives and see if an interesting other outcome may result from that. And the more we explore these (sometimes) less conventional settings, the more we may discover and the more informed our choices may be.

Cheers.
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post #16278 of 17374 Old 09-29-2015, 10:50 AM
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the problem is none of the tests or test patterns show all of the possible image data, they simply can't... so what may look good on a specific test pattern may distort real world images unnecessarily...

sharpness is an artificial enhancement, and for proper cal u turn all of this off... once the color is dialed in properly, preferred way as always 3D LUTs, the image is as good as it gets...

but as a personal choice - since it's ur TV - one can set the sharpness to whatever one likes... ;-)

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post #16279 of 17374 Old 09-29-2015, 11:07 AM
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Official Panasonic VT60/VT65 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk]

Ok, but you can't, apparently, turn off sharpening entirely. The best you can hope for is to minimize it.

I'm basing that statement on David Mackenzie's in-depth reviews. He claims there is always undefeatable high frequency gain being applied.

That this is present does not stop him awarding the set a reference level rating. Evidently the always-on VT60 sharpening is not considered that detrimental.

I wouldn't lose sleep over it
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well, all of these sets have some issue or another, nothing one can do about it... ;-)

point is though to turn off all artificial processing and enhancements that further alter the image and then properly calibrate the display source in it's raw unaltered state...
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To not use the sharpness setting would entail leaving it alone. In which case it would be at its default setting of 50. I'm presuming that is not what you mean.
You're presuming right, left alone is meant to be off, or as close to it as possible.
So far, I found a simple test on sharpness, first scene of prometheus, showing the earth turning, if you don't see any sharpness artifact there, you're fine in any content (it will show up pretty badly, when any sharpness is used).
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post #16282 of 17374 Old 10-05-2015, 06:16 PM
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My Denon 989 avr wont pass 3d. Does this mean i require a hdmi splitter to get 3d to my vt60 and hd audio to my dennon? If so can someone recommend a splitter?
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post #16283 of 17374 Old 10-06-2015, 07:23 AM
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My Denon 989 avr wont pass 3d. Does this mean i require a hdmi splitter to get 3d to my vt60 and hd audio to my dennon? If so can someone recommend a splitter?
I'm not sure that an HDMI splitter will solve the problem.
You may instead need a blu-ray player with dual HDMI out ports, such as the Panasonic DMP-BDT460.

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post #16284 of 17374 Old 10-09-2015, 02:35 PM
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I got my VT60 calibrated this week and it's certainly a marked improvement over THX Cinema and my attempts with the S&M disc! Was an interesting process to watch. Whilst I am happy with the end result I am a bit unsure of the 'methods' used. He calibrated using 2.6 gamma and mentioned he wanted the reds to sit slightly lower as they tend to push a bit hard and he also raised the blue slightly. After viewing some test footage he changed the gamma to 2.2 and then adjusted the contrast/brightness again to match and added additional color saturation.

The image appears to be brighter than previously whilst maintaining the deep black levels and my 'greenish' faces are now completely gone.
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post #16285 of 17374 Old 10-09-2015, 03:06 PM
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I got my VT60 calibrated this week and it's certainly a marked improvement over THX Cinema and my attempts with the S&M disc! Was an interesting process to watch. Whilst I am happy with the end result I am a bit unsure of the 'methods' used. He calibrated using 2.6 gamma and mentioned he wanted the reds to sit slightly lower as they tend to push a bit hard and he also raised the blue slightly. After viewing some test footage he changed the gamma to 2.2 and then adjusted the contrast/brightness again to match and added additional color saturation.

The image appears to be brighter than previously whilst maintaining the deep black levels and my 'greenish' faces are now completely gone.
That's all what we wanted with our high end set. Makes us happy.

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post #16286 of 17374 Old 10-09-2015, 04:25 PM
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Nice, wish I could afford a pro calibration after buying this sweet sweet plasma
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post #16287 of 17374 Old 10-09-2015, 06:14 PM
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Any idea guys whats going on. My vt60 and x4000 working just fine with ARC. And got some HDMI problem with the tv and avr. After i fixed the problem the arc wont work anymore. It says this feature is not available. Any idea why?

Edit. Fixed. Instead put it on ARC at the back of the avr. Its on Monitor.

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Last edited by parekoy; 10-09-2015 at 06:32 PM.
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post #16288 of 17374 Old 10-10-2015, 05:38 AM
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Hey man, I'm glad that I saw your post. I've got an exchange sitting in limbo right now. Sadly the idiots who made Destiny used an idiotic HUD that caused minor burn in on my VT60. Luckily I purchased the Best Buy/Future Shop extended warranty which I NEVER do.

Anyways, I'm approved for an exchange and they told me they will upgrade me to a comparable model when I'm ready. I told them the odds of anything coming out that was comparable is slim and I'd likely need to upgrade and pay the difference "In store credit of what I paid so to speak" which they said is fine.

I have 2 more years "my warranties expiry". So I've held on the last year as I knew nothing on the market would be comparable to Plasma in terms of picture.

I game a ton and the VT60 did a wonderful job all around for gaming, Blu Ray movies and HDTV.

Anyways the point of my post I guess is to find out what type of TV you end up or ended up getting and what you think in comparison to your VT65.

The issue that scares me is a lot of these LED tv's I'm seeing in stores or other peoples homes even during commercials for Spectre are super jerky on fast movement. This would be horrible for gaming. I'm trying to find a tv that is better than the VT60 I have for gaming and movies but also avoids burn in which I learned OLED suffers from almost worse than Plasma.

Any help would be great.
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post #16289 of 17374 Old 10-10-2015, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpacedDuck View Post
I'm trying to find a tv that is better than the VT60 I have for gaming and movies but also avoids burn in which I learned OLED suffers from almost worse than Plasma.
Where did you hear that? I've heard they do quite well in homes? Yes, a 14 hour demo loop may leave some image retention, but I haven't heard anyone in the LG EF9500 thread complain about image retention.
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post #16290 of 17374 Old 10-10-2015, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ScottFern View Post
Where did you hear that? I've heard they do quite well in homes? Yes, a 14 hour demo loop may leave some image retention, but I haven't heard anyone in the LG EF9500 thread complain about image retention.
I've seen mentions of this on several sites saying that people actually don't know that OLED can suffer from burn in.

My current plasma wasn't burnt in from leaving it on for hours on pause.
It was because the game developer used a stupid HUD and me not really realizing that that was possible.

I'd like the next tv I purchase to be capable of playing Destiny or other games that may have the same type of dumb HUD without the possibility.

Nobody on this forum can really recommend a tv that's better than the VT60 which makes replacing it hard.

I'm in Canada and if anyone can send some Best Buy.ca links that would be great
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