F8500.. OR .. ZT60 ????? - Page 93 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2761 of 3155 Old 03-10-2014, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post

To add to this point, we have a poster here who has claimed many times that the F8500 black levels are the same as the ZT60. So because he perceived them as the same and not even side by side but viewing each panel separately, should we all just say okay, it must be the same because he said so?

Absolutely not and everyone here knows this statement is simply not true and luckily we have the tools to prove it. It is like the person who looks at a TV in vivid mode and thinks it looks amazing. To that person it might look accurate but again, we have the tools and standards to separate accurate and what one perceives as good or accurate which are 2 totally different things and a point that really cannot be argued.

My arguement would be yes, the ZT60 has better black levels but how noticeable are those differences in real world viewing?

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Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post

Ron - last time I checked the thread was open, I don't see anything offensive or not factual with Eric's posts and we are discussing a display other than the 8500 as well. I hope you are still enjoying yours smile.gif

P.S. Why this is still a debate I don't understand. One company is out of the business and the other looks to be joining it soon. Both are great, just a matter of what someone values more.

It looks like the last standing high end plasma will be the Samsung H7000 which will come out this summer. I'm guessing it will have the F8500's panel but without its smart interaction features which is exactly how I want it.

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post #2762 of 3155 Old 03-10-2014, 07:54 PM
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My guess it will disappoint those who expect it to rival the 8500 or come close.

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post #2763 of 3155 Old 03-10-2014, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post

My guess it will disappoint those who expect it to rival the 8500 or come close.

I'm pretty sure it will essentially be the same TV as the F8500 but with less non PQ features. It's why the H7000 will be the nominee if it's available in time for the 2014 HDTV shootout. I'm pretty sure Robert Zohn would just use the F8500 if the H700 didn't have the F8500's panel.

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post #2764 of 3155 Old 03-11-2014, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post

My arguement would be yes, the ZT60 has better black levels but how noticeable are those differences in real world viewing?

Depends what your real world viewing constitutes. In a room with moderate light, I think it would be hard to tell a difference in the black level. It's really when you have low ambient light (such as through a bias light) or a completely dark room that the differences are readily apparent.

I have a ZT60. It's kind of like having that sports car that is good in traffic, but is amazing when you get a chance to driver her on the open road (i.e. a dark room).
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post #2765 of 3155 Old 03-12-2014, 12:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post


I'm pretty sure it will essentially be the same TV as the F8500 but with less non PQ features. It's why the H7000 will be the nominee if it's available in time for the 2014 HDTV shootout. I'm pretty sure Robert Zohn would just use the F8500 if the H700 didn't have the F8500's panel.


Since the Samsung F8500 won last years 2013 Value Electronics Shootout does this mean that it will automatically get a chance this year to defend its Title???

I thought i've read this before from one of Robert's reply's.

 

Does anyone know about this.....?

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post #2766 of 3155 Old 03-12-2014, 12:16 PM
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With the Panasonics out of the competition should be an easy win for the 8500

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post #2767 of 3155 Old 03-12-2014, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

With the Panasonics out of the competition should be an easy win for the 8500

Not really. Now that I hear the LG OLED will be participating, the competition itself is NOT going to be as exciting as last year. biggrin.gif
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post #2768 of 3155 Old 03-12-2014, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

With the Panasonics out of the competition should be an easy win for the 8500

Unless they include an OLED.

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post #2769 of 3155 Old 03-12-2014, 12:30 PM
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I heard they're going to have competitions among the 1080p TVs and 2160p TVs, choose a winner on each resolution side, then have the Grand Final between the two. biggrin.gif

Very interesting format, but the competition itself is not going to be as interesting because the OLEDs will have unfair advantages. lol
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post #2770 of 3155 Old 03-12-2014, 12:46 PM
 
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Pfft @ "unfair." Let them all compete on their own merits. LG will be their with an OLED (and bells on!). Samsung will have to hope their F8500 can carry them into 2014 as the "victor." On the outside, it looks like they've thrown in the towel on OLED development.
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post #2771 of 3155 Old 03-12-2014, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Pfft @ "unfair." Let them all compete on their own merits. LG will be their with an OLED (and bells on!). Samsung will have to hope their F8500 can carry them into 2014 as the "victor." On the outside, it looks like they've thrown in the towel on OLED development.

I'm actually more worried about those FALD LCDs. Costing over the OLED yet putting out mediocre performance lol. biggrin.gif As if the F8500 wasn't enough, they now have OLEDs to worry about. Gone are the days an LCD like the Sharp Elite can have a upset win against the plasmas. Those OLEDs will slaughter all the LCDs in the competition. biggrin.gif
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post #2772 of 3155 Old 03-12-2014, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Pfft @ "unfair." Let them all compete on their own merits. LG will be their with an OLED (and bells on!). Samsung will have to hope their F8500 can carry them into 2014 as the "victor." On the outside, it looks like they've thrown in the towel on OLED development.

Perhaps final consumer cost and worldwide economy is driving this?
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post #2773 of 3155 Old 03-12-2014, 02:23 PM
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Perhaps final consumer cost and worldwide economy is driving this?

Simply because the customers don't care about PQ and they are reminding that to the manufacturers with their wallets. We all know what happened to the plasmas. The Kuros, the Vieras, the F8500, and the OLEDs winning this little competition is meaningless because the true victor has always been LCDs. After all those year, the only technology LCDs have improved upon is uniformity in edge-lits. The PQ has actually gone through the gutter and Sony's top of the line W900a actually has worse black level than the CCFL Sony I had back then.

I'm actually seeing this kind of behavior among average Joes. They think 4k LCDs are actually superior to 1080p OLEDs because 'resolution > contrast ratio'. They also think LCD and plasmas are old news and 'LED' is the latest shining new thing. They can't fathom that those shiny new thin LED TV can never be inferior to thick ass CCFLs or plasmas. Hence, this farce continues and the brightest TV will still rule the world.

While it's simply not possible for Samsung to continue their OLED development without inkjet printing technology, with their financial prowess, they could have easily done it. But they don't, because the customers want 4k, not OLED. Those same idiots are clamouring for IPS and dissing the OLED simply because the former is in the iphones and the latter in the Omnias and the Galaxys. They simply prefer the brighter iphone and attack the Samsung for having burn-in, low resolution, pentile, and wacked up gamut. (conveniently ignoring early iphones had narrower gamut than standard)
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post #2774 of 3155 Old 03-12-2014, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by AlaskanAVGuy View Post


Since the Samsung F8500 won last years 2013 Value Electronics Shootout does this mean that it will automatically get a chance this year to defend its Title???
I thought i've read this before from one of Robert's reply's.

Does anyone know about this.....?

Yes, the F8500 or its successor the H7000 if it's available in time. Don't let the lower model number fool you, that just means they're putting the panel in a less feature model. If anything there may be some minor improvements to the panel.

Here's how I see the TVs finishing by technology:

OLED
Plasma (F8500/H7000)
LCD (FALD)
LCD (Edge-lit, regardless of resolution)

What I will find of interest is if the FALD sets score a lot closer to the plasma than the edge-lit LCDs from last year and in particular the Vizio P series.

And keep in mind 4K models may have an advantage over 1080p panels not so much for resolution but because these panels are staring to get other PQ attributes not available on the lower 1080p models. i.e., 4K/UHD panels are the new "normal" flagship models.

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post #2775 of 3155 Old 03-12-2014, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post

Yes, the F8500 or its successor the H7000 if it's available in time. Don't let the lower model number fool you, that just means they're putting the panel in a less feature model. If anything there may be some minor improvements to the panel.

Here's how I see the TVs finishing by technology:

OLED
Plasma (F8500/H7000)
LCD (FALD)
LCD (Edge-lit, regardless of resolution)

What I will find of interest is if the FALD sets score a lot closer to the plasma than the edge-lit LCDs from last year and in particular the Vizio P series.

And keep in mind 4K models may have an advantage over 1080p panels not so much for resolution but because these panels are staring to get other PQ attributes not available on the lower 1080p models. i.e., 4K/UHD panels are the new "normal" flagship models.

Really doubtful for the H7000 and the Vizio R to participate. They're being released way too late. The Reference may even turn out to be a vaporware. Vizio has a history, (remember the 65 inch one for $1500?) so I'm not holding my breath.
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post #2776 of 3155 Old 03-12-2014, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by AlaskanAVGuy View Post

Since the Samsung F8500 won last years 2013 Value Electronics Shootout does this mean that it will automatically get a chance this year to defend its Title???

Well in the eyes of the people that mattered most, the F8500 wasn't the winner. But it doesn't matter this year since it's only equitable competitor no longer exists. I can almost toss a coin in picking between the PQ of the F8500 & VT60 so both are winners in my eyes.

I'm more curious how the various "4K" LCDs are going to stack up against the excellent F8500 (or H7000) with 1080p content, and how well the F8500/H7000 will stack up against any OLEDs that may be there (also with 1080p content).

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post #2777 of 3155 Old 03-13-2014, 11:27 AM
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Well in the eyes of the people that mattered most, the F8500 wasn't the winner. But it doesn't matter this year since it's only equitable competitor no longer exists. I can almost toss a coin in picking between the PQ of the F8500 & VT60 so both are winners in my eyes.

I'm more curious how the various "4K" LCDs are going to stack up against the excellent F8500 (or H7000) with 1080p content, and how well the F8500/H7000 will stack up against any OLEDs that may be there (also with 1080p content).

I'm going to be interested in how well these 4K panels upscale non UHD sources since that's what these panels will be showing 95 plus % of the time.

Testing 4K panels with 4K content will be something new but in “the eyes of the people that matter most” it's probably not going to be that big of determinant.

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Well in the eyes of the people that mattered most, the F8500 wasn't the winner. But it doesn't matter this year since it's only equitable competitor no longer exists. I can almost toss a coin in picking between the PQ of the F8500 & VT60 so both are winners in my eyes.

I'm more curious how the various "4K" LCDs are going to stack up against the excellent F8500 (or H7000) with 1080p content, and how well the F8500/H7000 will stack up against any OLEDs that may be there (also with 1080p content).


I agree with you for Night viewing it's pretty much a Coin Toss between the F8500 VT60 & ZT60 but once the lights go on and the Vampires run away

the F8500 is still standing, which cannot be said about the Panny's.

 

I'm speaking from experience because my father picked up the ZT60 and it's not nearly as

bright as the F8500 is for daytime viewing we both agree.

Here is a pic of his set-up...so you know i'm not Trolling

 

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post #2779 of 3155 Old 03-13-2014, 07:00 PM
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^
I watch my VT60 in a room with windows from floor to ceiling along the left side and I am not a vamp. Picture looks great during a sunny day. The screen reflections are no worse than any other glossy screen - just about every display out there. With the ability to get more light output from the Panny's as calibrators like Chad work on more displays the whole bright day night only thing you enjoy posting so much about is not that big of deal now.

At least the last year of R&D spent on plasmas resulted in some great choices. It is easy to understand why they are satisfied owners of both brands.

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post #2780 of 3155 Old 03-13-2014, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

Well in the eyes of the people that mattered most, the F8500 wasn't the winner. But it doesn't matter this year since it's only equitable competitor no longer exists. I can almost toss a coin in picking between the PQ of the F8500 & VT60 so both are winners in my eyes.

I'm more curious how the various "4K" LCDs are going to stack up against the excellent F8500 (or H7000) with 1080p content, and how well the F8500/H7000 will stack up against any OLEDs that may be there (also with 1080p content).

It sure will be interesting this year to see which panel comes on top. Since Panny Plasmas are out of the loop, my guess OLED will triumph.

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post #2781 of 3155 Old 03-13-2014, 08:19 PM
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^
I watch my VT60 in a room with windows from floor to ceiling along the left side and I am not a vamp. Picture looks great during a sunny day. The screen reflections are no worse than any other glossy screen - just about every display out there. With the ability to get more light output from the Panny's as calibrators like Chad work on more displays the whole bright day night only thing you enjoy posting so much about is not that big of deal now.

At least the last year of R&D spent on plasmas resulted in some great choices. It is easy to understand why they are satisfied owners of both brands.
I'm so confused. Samsung owners are telling me that Panasonic's won't even power on during the day so how are you able to watch yours in a room with sunlight?
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post #2782 of 3155 Old 03-13-2014, 08:59 PM
 
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I'm so confused. Samsung owners are telling me that Panasonic's won't even power on during the day so how are you able to watch yours in a room with sunlight?


It's a Joke that we call Panasonic owners Vampires because their claim to

fame are BLACK LEVELS even thou their so extremely close to the F8500

While the WHITE LEVELS Output isn't even close.

 

 

 

As stated by David Mackenzie one of the Top Calibrators in the business @ The 2013 Value Electronics Shootout. ANSI is not an accurate way to measure Contrast on Plasma's, because ABL (Automatic Brightness Limiter) Circuitry kicks-in thus limiting Actual Light Output.   For example the Samsung F8500's light output goes from: ( Calibrated for Movie 40ft/L to 23ft/L ) When using the ANSI pattern. Thus ANSI is not the best way to get a Real World Measurement of a Plasma's true capability. Which is why this chart is a FULL ON/OFF CONTRAST.

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post #2783 of 3155 Old 03-13-2014, 09:27 PM
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It's a Joke that we call Panasonic owners Vampires because their claim to
fame are BLACK LEVELS even thou their so extremely close to the F8500
While the WHITE LEVELS Output isn't even close.





As stated by David Mackenzie one of the Top Calibrators in the business @ The 2013 Value Electronics Shootout. ANSI is not an accurate way to measure Contrast on Plasma's, because ABL (Automatic Brightness Limiter) Circuitry kicks-in thus limiting Actual Light Output.   For example the Samsung F8500's light output goes from: ( Calibrated for Movie 40ft/L to 23ft/L ) When using the ANSI pattern. Thus ANSI is not the best way to get a Real World Measurement of a Plasma's true capability. Which is why this chart is a FULL ON/OFF CONTRAST.
Huh? I don't get it. I keep reading that black levels are one of if not the most important part that make up the best pq. From everything I read from the pro's I have yet to see them say that an important aspect to achieve a great picture is white levels?

If white levels were just as important as black levels wouldn't LEDs reign supreme since their white levels reach way higher then any plasma TV? I just don't think you are making much sense here.

Also, looking at what the pro's scored the contrast ratio's at the 2013 shootout they gave the F8500 an 8.9 while the ZT60 scored a 9.2 and the VT60 scored a 9.3. Sounds like even with those peak whites contrast is still better on the other 2 TV's. I also know that contrast levels on plasma's usually always beat out contrast levels on LED's even though they claim like 30million to 1. lol

I am going to stick with what the pro's say because it seems like your opinion is bias as I am assuming you own and F8500.
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Huh? I don't get it. I keep reading that black levels are one of if not the most important part that make up the best pq. From everything I read from the pro's I have yet to see them say that an important aspect to achieve a great picture is white levels?

If white levels were just as important as black levels wouldn't LEDs reign supreme since their white levels reach way higher then any plasma TV? I just don't think you are making much sense here.

Also, looking at what the pro's scored the contrast ratio's at the 2013 shootout they gave the F8500 an 8.9 while the ZT60 scored a 9.2 and the VT60 scored a 9.3. Sounds like even with those peak whites contrast is still better on the other 2 TV's. I also know that contrast levels on plasma's usually always beat out contrast levels on LED's even though they claim like 30million to 1. lol

I am going to stick with what the pro's say because it seems like your opinion is bias as I am assuming you own and F8500.

 

Your point is interesting because the HUGE MAJORITY of consumers do prefer a Brighter Screen which is Exactly why the Samsung F8500 WON the 2013 Value Electronics Shootout, so to say that it doesn't matter is obviously wrong in the Real World. That's also why LCD killed the Plasma's in sales because the Human Eye likes to see brighter objects. Now don't go lecturing me on Picture Quality because I understand the difference which is why I bought a Plasma in the first place. But the Fact remains that people still like Light Output more than Deep Blacks which is easily proven by the higher sales of LCD TV's.

Seeings how the differences in Black Levels are soo EXTREMELY SMALL (0.0011fl vs. 0.0017fl) it's a moot point, because the average consumer will never see a difference between them period. Their that close and I know because i'm speaking from experience. I own the F8500 and my father owns the ZT60, and in the dark they look identical in Black Levels to me and my entire family. However the brighter F8500 makes it POP much much more than the Panny's. My entire family all agrees that they like watching the F8500 more because of this simple FACT.

 

So get off of your soap box and try and understand exactly why the Samsung F8500 Won the Shootout.

Like you said the Pro's picked the Panny by .1 and the Audience picked the Sammy by .2 giving it the Win.

because you simply don't watch with a METER you watch with your EYES!

 

ps: The Audience without a Meter gave the Contrast Ratio to the F8500 over the ZT60 (9.3 vs 9.1)

Thumbs-Up if you Agree

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Because your collective couldn't see the difference doesn't automatically extend to everyone else. My ZT doesn't need anymore pop, but that won't stop you from trying to convince us it does. I'm actually excited about the death of plasma when OLED takes the reigns, so that these tedious exchanges will become a laughable footnote in history.

Plasma didn't sell as well for a myriad of reasons, only one of them being how they visually compared to LCDs in a bright showroom. Enter a Magnolia with controlled lighting, and the benefits of plasma began to materialize before one's eyes. Poor marketing/lack of advertising and troublesome early incarnations of the technology (burn-in) created a negative and lasting first impression, all of which also contributed to its demise.
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post #2786 of 3155 Old 03-13-2014, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlaskanAVGuy View Post

Your point is interesting because the HUGE MAJORITY of consumers do prefer a Brighter Screen which is Exactly why the Samsung F8500 WON the 2013 Value Electronics Shootout, so to say that it doesn't matter is obviously wrong in the Real World. That's also why LCD killed the Plasma's in sales because the Human Eye likes to see brighter objects. Now don't go lecturing me on Picture Quality because I understand the difference which is why I bought a Plasma in the first place. But the Fact remains that people still like Light Output more than Deep Blacks which is easily proven by the higher sales of LCD TV's.
Seeings how the differences in Black Levels are soo EXTREMELY SMALL (0.0011fl vs. 0.0017fl) it's a moot point, because the average consumer will never see a difference between them period. Their that close and I know because i'm speaking from experience. I own the F8500 and my father owns the ZT60, and in the dark they look identical in Black Levels to me and my entire family. However the brighter F8500 makes it POP much much more than the Panny's. My entire family all agrees that they like watching the F8500 more because of this simple FACT.

So get off of your soap box and try and understand exactly why the Samsung F8500 Won the Shootout.
Like you said the Pro's picked the Panny by .1 and the Audience picked the Sammy by .2 giving it the Win.
because you simply don't watch with a METER you watch with your EYES!



ps: The Audience without a Meter gave the Contrast Ratio to the F8500 over the ZT60 (9.3 vs 9.1)
Well I think you summed that up nicely.
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post #2787 of 3155 Old 03-14-2014, 02:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Because your collective couldn't see the difference doesn't automatically extend to everyone else. My ZT doesn't need anymore pop, but that won't stop you from trying to convince us it does. I'm actually excited about the death of plasma when OLED takes the reigns, so that these tedious exchanges will become a laughable footnote in history.

Plasma didn't sell as well for a myriad of reasons, only one of them being how they visually compared to LCDs in a bright showroom. Enter a Magnolia with controlled lighting, and the benefits of plasma began to materialize before one's eyes. Poor marketing/lack of advertising and troublesome early incarnations of the technology (burn-in) created a negative and lasting first impression, all of which also contributed to its demise.


Yes i'm sure my family must have different DNA than the rest of humanity, and in that world you would be correct. lmao

As for OLED they will come with their own set of problems i'm sure so these tedious exchanges will continue on....

However Back to Reality, if I were you I would be more concerned with the following:

 

1) FULL HD 3D

 

Samsung F8500 has FULL HD 3D while the Panasonic VT & ZT only have Half the Resolution let me explain:

 

Samsung plasma TVs are unique when it comes to 3D because they scan each of the screen refreshing steps which

make up one full 3D frame at full vertical resolution (1080 lines), whereas their Japanese rival Panasonic's has instead

chosen to reduce the resolution of intermediate steps. They do this by only scanning half the lines making it normally around 540,

and thus 3D suffers with Resolution Loss as a result. So what's the point of having a 3D TV that can only do 3D as well as Passive

technology which also suffers with 540 Resolution...

 

2) Video Process Resolution

 

"The Video Processing on the F8500 is clearly superior to the Panasonic especially when it comes to 24fps material from Blu-ray."

quote from Kevin Miller, Professional Calibrator for the Value Electronics Shootout.

 

The Samsung uses 96Hz processing for handling 24fps material from Blu-ray movie discs, and it works very well.

In fact, this is an area where the Samsung  F8500 series handily outperforms the Panasonic.

 

The Panasonic’s 96Hz processing scheme appears to first take the signal to 60Hz inserting 2:3 pull-down,

and then converting the signal to 96Hz. This process produces an unacceptable amount of judder in the

picture and is best left at the 60Hz setting in the Panasonic.

 

Thumbs-Up if you like hearing the Facts

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post #2788 of 3155 Old 03-14-2014, 03:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlaskanAVGuy View Post



I'm speaking from experience because my father picked up the ZT60 and it's not nearly as
bright as the F8500 is for daytime viewing we both agree.
Here is a pic of his set-up...so you know i'm not Trolling



Quote:
Originally Posted by AlaskanAVGuy View Post


Yes i'm sure my family must have different DNA than the rest of humanity, and in that world you would be correct. lmao
As for OLED they will come with their own set of problems i'm sure so these tedious exchanges will continue on....
However Back to Reality, if I were you I would be more concerned with the following:

1) FULL HD 3D

Samsung F8500 has FULL HD 3D while the Panasonic VT & ZT only have Half the Resolution let me explain:

Samsung plasma TVs are unique when it comes to 3D because they scan each of the screen refreshing steps which
make up one full 3D frame at full vertical resolution (1080 lines), whereas their Japanese rival Panasonic's has instead
chosen to reduce the resolution of intermediate steps. They do this by only scanning half the lines making it normally around 540,
and thus 3D suffers with Resolution Loss as a result. So what's the point of having a 3D TV that can only do 3D as well as Passive
technology which also suffers with 540 Resolution...



Thumbs-Up if you like hearing the Facts



so i guess after ALL the facts , you still couldn`t convince your father to get the f8500 over the ZT60? lol .

Im waiting for you to tell us the story on how he returned the ZT60 after he saw the F8500 ... blah,blah,blah.. whatever.
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post #2789 of 3155 Old 03-14-2014, 04:02 AM
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Move on please...

please take the high road in every post:do not respond to or quote a problematic post: report it
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post #2790 of 3155 Old 03-14-2014, 04:25 AM
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As far as the audience vote for the Samsung, here is a person from that audience. I think his post sums it up well on what they really thought of the Samsung well it was all said and done.

https://www.avsforum.com/t/1474480/official-zt60-owners-thread/9900#post_24414827

https://www.avsforum.com/t/1474480/official-zt60-owners-thread/9900#post_24415812

Also, as far as the audience vote, please tell me why I would trust the vote of people who are judging a 64" TV from 20 feet away?

Your claim to what the average consumer likes does not represent a the better product. Luckily a lot of us here are not the average consumer which is why we choose the better products. If you want to base the better product on the average consumer then you should be telling everyone that LED's are truly the best TV by your theory. So, let's face it that your theory of the better product is skewed by you basing that on what the average consumer likes and not on what is truly the better product based on facts and standards.

Also, as far as 3D, it is proving more and more that the average consumer could not care less about it so why even bring that aspect up of the TV? Also, would love to know the average viewing time a month that people spend watching 3D. I have spent maybe 15 minutes a month watching 3D content since owning a 3D TV. Maybe if a decent 3D movie comes out that number spikes to 2 hours a 15 minutes a month. No way will I sacrifice PQ for better 3D. If that was the case I would be buying a passive 3D TV which I prefer over any active 3D whether it is truly HD or not.

Like I said, I would rather go with what the pro's recommend as their view is closer to my interests. Since they picked the Panasonic's as the winner and had much more to go by at the shootout then the average consumer from 20ft away and Sound & Vision picking the ZT60 as the best TV made in 2013, I think they must know a little more then the average consumer. That is what they make a living doing, isn't it?
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