Samsung PN51F5300 â?? What a little gem! - i1Pro Calibration results inside - Page 62 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1831 of 2013 Old 06-26-2015, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Vincent Praino View Post
HDMI black level should match your source.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilipsPhanatic View Post
What's that mean ?

Alot of these I scrolled through different settings before defaulting to Orion's and the changes were very very minute or not even noticeable.

I remember on my Philips HDTV I had this Dynamic setting or something.....OFF/MIN/MED/MAX.....it was defaulted to MAX and it made the picture SO DARK I thought it was broken out of the box. Reduced it to a lower setting and it brightened....at OFF the picture looked fine.

But some of these things, like GAMMA and White Point and others....unless you set them to the highest setting or to an extreme number, it seems like you can't tell the difference to the naked eye.
See the link in my signature for an explanation of the HDMI Black Level setting. I wish Samsung wouldn't make it so confusing.

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post #1832 of 2013 Old 06-26-2015, 07:13 PM
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iGrease, a calibration I believe costs $150 - $300. If you don't go for a calibration, if a guy driving past stops in and just sees if the black problem is fixable or not, maybe it costs less.

He may be able to mask it, too.

Samsung 8500 -- if you can find it -- may be what you need.
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post #1833 of 2013 Old 06-26-2015, 07:41 PM
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The F8500 is long gone - but even if you found one, it would have the same black levels as the F5300B and H5000 panels. Black Optimizer will work the same, too.
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post #1834 of 2013 Old 06-27-2015, 02:42 PM
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The funny thing about the 8500 was that I had called a couple of best buys looking for the 5300's. One guy said he would look out for any Plasmas he saw. One day he left a message on my phone saying he found a 8500 in the warehouse and it was the only one and I would need to come in and order it personally. I tried to call back but he wasn't there that day. Sadly at this point it was already past my 30 day return trial and I didn't want to spend the money for the 8500 and still have the 5300. I never did ask the price of the 8500. Oh well.
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post #1835 of 2013 Old 06-27-2015, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iGREASE View Post
The funny thing about the 8500 was that I had called a couple of best buys looking for the 5300's. One guy said he would look out for any Plasmas he saw. One day he left a message on my phone saying he found a 8500 in the warehouse and it was the only one and I would need to come in and order it personally. I tried to call back but he wasn't there that day. Sadly at this point it was already past my 30 day return trial and I didn't want to spend the money for the 8500 and still have the 5300. I never did ask the price of the 8500. Oh well.
If ANYBODY reading this can get either a 5300 or 8500 or any other top-end plasma...it's HIGHLY UNLIKELY after laying out the $$$ that you couldn't sell it for more, if you find no improvement over what you have now (unlikely).

Same with the Panny's, obviously.
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post #1836 of 2013 Old 06-28-2015, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Vincent Praino View Post
You should NOT copy anyone's settings. Read this two links all discussing why:

1. http://referencehometheater.com/2013...ults-compared/
2. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lc...-measured.html

You should turn off all post processing except black optimiser. HDMI black level needs to match your source. If you are using a bluray player or cable box, you will likely need the HDMI black level set to low or you will wash out your picture. HDMI black level normal is mainly for when you are connecting a computer to the TV or specific situations in which you need to use the full range (0-255).

To get the BEST picture possible without hiring someone to do a calibration, use the below:

Picture:
Picture Mode: Movie
Cell Light: 20
Contrast: 90-100 (set with AVS white clipping pattern)
Brightness: 45-49 (set with AVS black clipping pattern)
Sharpness: 0
Color: 50
Tint (G/R): G50R50

Picture Size: Screen Fit

Advanced Settings:
Dyanic Contrast: Off
Black Tone: Off
Flesh Tone: 0
RGB Only Mode: Off
Color Space: Auto

White Balance:
R-Offset: 25
G-Offset: 25
B-Offset: 25
R-Gain: 25
G-Gain: 25
B-Gain: 25

10p White Balance: Off
Gamma: 0
Expert Pattern: Off
Motion Lighting: Off

Picture Options:
Colour Tone: Warm 2
Digital Clean View: Off
MPEG Noise Filter: Off
HDMI Black Level: Low
Film Mode: Auto2 (1080i sports, news, etc) or Auto1 (1080i films, movies)
Black Optimiser: Dark Room (Auto if you want more brightness)
I have very similar settings. You should take a look at this article your tint/color settings will change for the better. Give it a try If you have the movie.
http://www.homecinemaguru.com/checki...-your-display/

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post #1837 of 2013 Old 06-28-2015, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afterlife2 View Post
I have very similar settings. You should take a look at this article your tint/color settings will change for the better. Give it a try If you have the movie.
http://www.homecinemaguru.com/checki...-your-display/
That is really helpful. I wish I had that disc. Maybe I can see if I can get it from one of those Red Box kiosks.
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post #1838 of 2013 Old 06-28-2015, 11:03 AM
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It helped alot on the greens in the face and color bleeding. It really helped my 5300.

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post #1839 of 2013 Old 06-28-2015, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
It's not a gimmick. It noticeably improves black level/contrast ratio, and it's recommended by calibrators to leave on. With it turned off you're looking at mid range plasma blacks. That's not a compromise I'm willing to make as I don't see any flickering from normal viewing distances.

With it off I can see the significantly worse blacks though.

1st - "normal viewing distance" , how many feet away from panel?
2nd - what is lighting environment conditions?

1st/2nd point for my test/viewing conditions:
> my viewing distance is between 5'-7'
> my lighting environment is always late night "dim surround" with bias lighting (if used) OR no room light or bias light at all, so very dark room.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Panel: PN60F5300B ... TV is in a Pre-3DLUT setup/preped state "2.3 gamma pwr.law"
TPG: DVDO-AVLab-tpg
Meter: i1D3
eeColor: Unity LUT
Software: CM 5.5.0 / LS v.7.0.0
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Patch Size (8%) / APL (between 05-15%)
Meter Position: Direct Contact


BO = off ................................................ 15% APL ........ (0.0138 , 31.1498) fL
>BO = Dark Room ................................. 15% APL ........ (0.0138 , 31.1723) fL

>BO = Dark Room ................................... 10% APL ........... (0.0030 , 31.2267) fL
>BO = Dark Room ................................... 05% APL ........... (0.0022 , 31.2891) fL
BO = Bright Room "No Ambient light" ...... 15% APL .............. (0.0142 , 37.1490) fL
BO = Bright Room "Med. Ambient light" ... 15% APL .............. (0.0232 , 37.2036) fL
BO = Auto ........................................... 15% APL ............... (0.0140 , 37.2195) fL

Patch Size (8%) / No "0%" APL
Meter Position: Direct Contact


BO = off .................................................. .... (0.0048 , 31.3595) fL
BO = Dark Room ........................................... (0.0023 , 31.1401) fL

BO = Bright Room ..... "Med. Ambient Light" ..... (0.0049 , 37.3079) fL
BO = Auto .................................................. . (0.0023 , 37.1734) fL


Notes:

(A)
In my viewing conditions with BO set at auto/Bright Room/Dark Room the visible continuous Pulse Reset behavior results in charge/discharge streams of wavy lines and a very distracting strobe/flash affect of light (literally the panel is exibiting a fast repeated flashing of light). These artifacts and odd behavior for this feature are most if not only evident with a completely Black screen with no image/video material (0-12% APL) is on screen.

(B)
When any other image/video information is displayed on screen "normal viewing conditions" with an APL of about 12% or higher BO engaged does not decrease the MLL. BO is only in effect when the APL content is below approx.12% and at these levels (APL) with viewing distance of anywhere between "0-10 ft." in a dark room "dim surround" the negative side effects of the BO is very evident.

(C)
With BO engaged and display is calibrated whether just using Internal Display Controls or Calibration equipment the RGB balance/RGB Separation/Gamma values are a moving target due to the fact that Lb/Lw for display will always be changing based on environment or APL. So, if you calibrate display with lights off your Lb/Lw are value (x) then you turn lights on and now Lb/Lw are value (y). and not only this but these values will vary based on APL, Room lighting, or a combination of both and not just be one set of values.

(D)
For accurate/repeatable results it has been well known when calibrating a display to avoid letting the display make continuous decisions on a moment-by-moment basis about what to do for Lb/Lw . With BO engaged the viewer will never actually know what to expect for Lb/Lw as the display is always changing its behavior depending on the environment by using ambient sensor or the APL of image and video content being viewed.

(E)
The addition of this Post Processing task is just an additional burden for the PDP, it has been seen on some forum postings in past that some have even returned/repaired there panels due to the BO feature going bad or just came from factory bad.


Final thought:

If one is determined to use BO then its best utilized under circumstances that viewing environment is a Medium-Bright room and then only use the "Dark Room" setting.


Recommendation:

Turn Black Optimizer off

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post #1840 of 2013 Old 06-28-2015, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilipsPhanatic View Post
If ANYBODY reading this can get either a 5300 or 8500 or any other top-end plasma...it's HIGHLY UNLIKELY after laying out the $$$ that you couldn't sell it for more, if you find no improvement over what you have now (unlikely).

Same with the Panny's, obviously.
So if I wanted to sell mine relatively soon how much should I ask for the 5300? I paid $799 + tax for it. I saw one in K-Mart for $750 and the 51" for $349.
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post #1841 of 2013 Old 06-28-2015, 02:57 PM
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Thank you W3Rman for the in-depth investigation into the effects of the Black Optimizer feature. I will link to your post on my recommended settings post, and change the recommended setting to off.
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post #1842 of 2013 Old 06-28-2015, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by afterlife2 View Post
It helped alot on the greens in the face and color bleeding. It really helped my 5300.
How did you even notice something like that unless the face was a close-up shot occupying most of the TV's field of view and it was fixed on it or a long close-up ?

Even blacks, I think to the average person, unless you're talking about a space scene or the opening credits rolling in "Star Wars", you really can't tell unless you're one of the AVS experts or semi-experts here.
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post #1843 of 2013 Old 06-28-2015, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by iGREASE View Post
So if I wanted to sell mine relatively soon how much should I ask for the 5300? I paid $799 + tax for it. I saw one in K-Mart for $750 and the 51" for $349.
When did you buy yours ? I'm assuming someone pays recent retail prices and then can sell for more in the after-market. You paid a bit more than what the retailers were selling them for a few months ago.

I bought mine for $600 6 weeks ago.

I'm assuming someone finds one by ACCIDENT and the sales person gives it to them at the most recent retail price.
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post #1844 of 2013 Old 06-28-2015, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilipsPhanatic View Post
When did you buy yours ? I'm assuming someone pays recent retail prices and then can sell for more in the after-market. You paid a bit more than what the retailers were selling them for a few months ago.

I bought mine for $600 6 weeks ago.

I'm assuming someone finds one by ACCIDENT and the sales person gives it to them at the most recent retail price.

Well I looked around and only HHGreg had them for $799. This was back in April. I then saw a 5300B for $750 at K-Mart. Nothing less than that I've seen.
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post #1845 of 2013 Old 06-28-2015, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by W3Rman View Post
Recommendation:Turn Black Optimizer off
I just went through the 4 choices -- OFF, DARK ROOM, BRIGHT ROOM, AUTO -- and couldn't detect any change in the picture from 4 feet away.
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post #1846 of 2013 Old 06-28-2015, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by iGREASE View Post
Well I looked around and only HHGreg had them for $799. This was back in April. I then saw a 5300B for $750 at K-Mart. Nothing less than that I've seen.
I'd definitely pay that if I needed a new plasma and if I could afford it I'd buy a 2nd and either hoard it as a backup or sell it in a few months for over $1,000.
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post #1847 of 2013 Old 06-28-2015, 06:36 PM
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I just went through the 4 choices -- OFF, DARK ROOM, BRIGHT ROOM, AUTO -- and couldn't detect any change in the picture from 4 feet away.
To correctly interpret the results of my post above it should be understood that seeing no difference when changing settings of BO is entirely possible depending on the variables (BO setting, Room Lighting, APL of image/video).

And, if it was not evident that the Pre-3DLUT state of the display using a Unity LUT in this test the Max (100%) Lw was set at 30fL, so the big jumps to 37.xxxx fL seen for BO setting of Bright-Room/Auto are showing that BO is deciding to increase beyond this set level on its own choosing.
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post #1848 of 2013 Old 06-28-2015, 07:15 PM
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To correctly interpret the results of my post above it should be understood that seeing no difference when changing settings of BO is entirely possible depending on the variables (BO setting, Room Lighting, APL of image/video).
OK......

Quote:
And, if it was not evident that the Pre-3DLUT state of the display using a Unity LUT in this test the Max (100%) Lw was set at 30fL, so the big jumps to 37.xxxx fL seen for BO setting of Bright-Room/Auto are showing that BO is deciding to increase beyond this set level on its own choosing.
I got as far as "And, if it was not evident that the....."
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post #1849 of 2013 Old 07-01-2015, 12:31 AM
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Service Menu: When entering the SM, what is the 1st line with PIXEL SHIFT TEST OFF indicating ?

I have the Pixel Protection active and am using the 16:9 screen not the Screen Fit (which I believe disables the PP), so I am a bit confused on what the PST is and what OFF means ?
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post #1850 of 2013 Old 07-01-2015, 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by PhilipsPhanatic View Post
Service Menu: When entering the SM, what is the 1st line with PIXEL SHIFT TEST OFF indicating ?

I have the Pixel Protection active and am using the 16:9 screen not the Screen Fit (which I believe disables the PP), so I am a bit confused on what the PST is and what OFF means ?
Why are you going into the service menu? From your posts, you seem more like hobbyist than an adept calibrator. You stand a great chance of screwing something up irreversibly in the service menu. Pixel Shift Test sounds like a control that TESTS the pixel shift function although I am not certain. I would leave it alone, as long as you have pixel shift on and 16:9, you will be fine.
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post #1851 of 2013 Old 07-01-2015, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Vincent Praino View Post
Why are you going into the service menu? From your posts, you seem more like hobbyist than an adept calibrator. You stand a great chance of screwing something up irreversibly in the service menu. Pixel Shift Test sounds like a control that TESTS the pixel shift function although I am not certain. I would leave it alone, as long as you have pixel shift on and 16:9, you will be fine.
Mike, I just went into the Service Menu to check the hours of operation. I'm still being careful during 'break-in' -- I just crossed 500 hours.

As I indicated in another thread, I am thinking of going from 16:9 to SCREEN FIT but if the Pixel Protection cannot be enabled for Screen Fit, I may just stay with the slightly bigger (overscan) of the 16:9.

I mean, 16:9 is a few pixels bigger than Screen Fit, it's not like a Wide or SuperWide enlargement. So given the minimal size increase (overscan), I figure why lose the Pixel Protection even though I'm not sure it's that critical and I don't do any viewing/gaming that would really necessitate it. Just like having it on, I guess.

If PP can be enabled in SCREEN FIT, then the choice is moot.
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post #1852 of 2013 Old 07-01-2015, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilipsPhanatic View Post
How did you even notice something like that unless the face was a close-up shot occupying most of the TV's field of view and it was fixed on it or a long close-up ?

Even blacks, I think to the average person, unless you're talking about a space scene or the opening credits rolling in "Star Wars", you really can't tell unless you're one of the AVS experts or semi-experts here.
Try it and you will notice the difference. It won't hurt none to try.

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post #1853 of 2013 Old 07-01-2015, 03:17 PM
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If PP can be enabled in SCREEN FIT, then the choice is moot.
Nope. There are no pixels beyond 1920x1080, so if it shifted you'd have a black line 4 pixels wide and consumers would never use the feature.
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post #1854 of 2013 Old 07-01-2015, 11:57 PM
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Try it and you will notice the difference. It won't hurt none to try.
Try what ?
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post #1855 of 2013 Old 07-01-2015, 11:57 PM
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Nope. There are no pixels beyond 1920x1080, so if it shifted you'd have a black line 4 pixels wide and consumers would never use the feature.
Makes sense...I think ......got it !!!
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Try what ?
This: http://www.homecinemaguru.com/checki...-your-display/

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post #1857 of 2013 Old 07-02-2015, 05:47 PM
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That looks good, thanks !!
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post #1858 of 2013 Old 07-02-2015, 08:50 PM
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That looks good, thanks !!
Cool let me know what ya think.

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post #1859 of 2013 Old 07-16-2015, 08:29 AM
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Blu-Ray PQ/Black Tests: I know that there are some on-line reviews to test your PQ and black levels by watching some Blu-Rays and checking out specific points in the movie (i.e., Casino Royale).

Was wondering if any of you had knew if Marvel's The Avengers or Man of Steel or The Incredible Hulk might also have time stops where you can see the PQ/blacks/calibration ?

I don't have an extensive Blu-Ray collection -- more into DC and Marvel cartoon Blu-Rays -- but hate to buy a Blu-Ray just to check somebody's suggested stop-points for PQ/calibration.
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post #1860 of 2013 Old 07-16-2015, 08:37 AM
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Blu-Ray PQ/Black Tests: I know that there are some on-line reviews to test your PQ and black levels by watching some Blu-Rays and checking out specific points in the movie (i.e., Casino Royale).

Was wondering if any of you had knew if Marvel's The Avengers or Man of Steel or The Incredible Hulk might also have time stops where you can see the PQ/blacks/calibration ?

I don't have an extensive Blu-Ray collection -- more into DC and Marvel cartoon Blu-Rays -- but hate to buy a Blu-Ray just to check somebody's suggested stop-points for PQ/calibration.
The Incredibles DVD has a THX calibration that is good. Buy the dvd used: http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...condition=used

That Casino Royale bluray + Incredible DVD is all I needed to get it to my liking.

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