Panasonic TC-P50S60 gaming motion blur / darkness issues - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 30 Old 12-05-2013, 11:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi, everyone. I just bought myself my first Plasma TV and am facing some issues. Please, be gentle with me :P

 

1- When I play a video game on my PS4, there's terrible motion blur. It's almost like a "ghost" effect for lack of a better word. I can see lines forming around any objects when the camera pans, and they are always yellow/orange, regardless of the game being played. I tried it with FIFA 14, Killzone Shadowfall and Call of Duty Ghosts. It happens in all of them.

 

I thought Plasma TVs were supposed to be better in terms of motion blur than LEDs. I didn't have the same issues with my LG LED.

 

2- Darkness. I understand Plasmas are generally darker than LEDs. The picture looks amazing on this one (calibration settings found on this forum). But I'm talking so dark I can't see anything. In dark scenes, whenever there's shadow or black, everything is so dark it merges together.

 

 

 

I had this TV for a couple of days, therefore, it only has a few hours in it. Does that have anything to do with it? Are those defects? Can I fix this? 

 

Thanks!

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post #2 of 30 Old 12-05-2013, 11:38 PM
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What you're seeing with your console games is phosphor lag combined with 30hz judder. Plasmas and OLEDs generally have trouble with 30 fps games. CRTs have it too but they're so fast it's not as bad. LCDs also handle better because of their inherent inability to display object in motion, so they just blur them out. VA panels have it worst because they make 30 fps look more like 15 fps. LG IPS handles motion a little better thus the closer gap between your LG and the weakest plasma. Try 60 fps games. That'll show you the true performance of plasmas.

For black crush, set black level to light instead of dark. Also, set colors to nonstandard (extended) instead of standard. Standard should only be used with movies. Also, check panel brightness to see whether it was set to low and fix it to mid or high. These should fix black crush issues. If however, the pictures are still dim, try playing with AGC and BL. You must be in Custom mode btw.
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post #3 of 30 Old 12-05-2013, 11:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by KOF View Post

What you're seeing with your console games is phosphor lag combined with 30hz judder. Plasmas and OLEDs generally have trouble with 30 fps games. CRTs have it too but they're so fast it's not as bad. LCDs also handle better because of their inherent inability to display object in motion, so they just blur them out. VA panels have it worst because they make 30 fps look more like 15 fps. LG IPS handles motion a little better thus the closer gap between your LG and the weakest plasma. Try 60 fps games. That'll show you the true performance of plasmas.

For black crush, set black level to light instead of dark. Also, set colors to nonstandard (extended) instead of standard. Standard should only be used with movies. Also, check panel brightness to see whether it was set to low and fix it to mid or high. These should fix black crush issues. If however, the pictures are still dim, try playing with AGC and BL. You must be in Custom mode btw.

 

Thanks for replying, KOF.

 

The three games I mentioned are running at 60 FPS / 1080p though. That's why I think it's so weird.

 

I'll try your suggestions for the darkness issue. I used calibration settings found here under Cinema mode, per instructions. You think I'd do better with Custom?

 

Thanks again!

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post #4 of 30 Old 12-06-2013, 12:02 AM
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Oh yeah. I forgot about the Call of the Duty. doh! Does Shadow Fall really run at 60 FPS? Single or MP? Wow that's amazing then.

I'll give an extended explanation than. Plasmas display picture by discharging gas cell. But some colors are slower to go away compared to the others though. I too notice the phosphor trailing the worst with yellowish objects. When playing Need for Speed, this behavior makes cars look like comets. I was playing Morrowind the other day and brunette ladies have the worst phosphor tralis. If you're truly disatisfied with the S60's motion performance, give Samsung F5300/F5500 a try too. I once had an LG plasma and that one had really fast phosphor lag, and the Samsung should be even better. The F5300/F5500 has 800 lines of motion resolution against the S60' 700 lines, and RTings review gave 5.0 to the S60 for motion performance while they gave the F5300/F5500 7.0.

I admit, my biggest issue with the S60 is with motion performance as well. I thought it was going to be as good as the LG which I had little complaints with motion.
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post #5 of 30 Old 12-06-2013, 12:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Oh yeah. I forgot about the Call of the Duty. doh! Does Shadow Fall really run at 60 FPS? Single or MP? Wow that's amazing then.

I'll give an extended explanation than. Plasmas display picture by discharging gas cell. But some colors are slower to go away compared to the others though. I too notice the phosphor trailing the worst with yellowish objects. When playing Need for Speed, this behavior makes cars look like comets. I was playing Morrowind the other day and brunette ladies have the worst phosphor tralis. If you're truly disatisfied with the S60's motion performance, give Samsung F5300/F5500 a try too. I once had an LG plasma and that one had really fast phosphor lag, and the Samsung should be even better. The F5300/F5500 has 800 lines of motion resolution against the S60' 700 lines, and RTings review gave 5.0 to the S60 for motion performance while they gave the F5300/F5500 7.0.

I admit, my biggest issue with the S60 is with motion performance as well. I thought it was going to be as good as the LG which I had little complaints with motion.

Ah, heck. Seeing the reviews on RTings.com - that's exactly what happens on my TV. This is very, very frustrating. One of the reasons why I went for a Plasma was that I thought the motion aspect would be better with games, not worse!

 

Do you think it's worth to keep it - as in, do you get used to it? Because at this point, this is really annoying me, but like I said, I've only had it for a few days, and my gaming is only secondary to me - movies TV streamed through Roku are the focus for me.

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post #6 of 30 Old 12-06-2013, 01:50 AM
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You're going to have to make a hard choice : Blacks or motion performance, both of which are dear to me. For movies, there is no contest. The S60 is simply awesome when it comes to Blu-rays and future 4k contents. (I've seen a few 4k clips at really high bitrate, and boy, I don't even need Sony's 4K TV anymore) The S60 isn't too amazing with low res or low bitrate materials though. Both Youtube and Netflix is ho hum even with SuperHD, and Xbox 360 games look really bad. Scaling/processing is one area I think Samsung has an upper hand.

For games, it's really a toss up. The Samsung will give you better motion performance while the S60 will give you eye candy. The Samsung is brighter as well, which can mitigrate its MLL disadvantage somewhat, so that's a good thing. The Samsung is also a bit cleaner. You may notice ditherings on your S60 too, like speckles. The Samsung will have less of that. But of course, Samsung plasmas also come with the worst buzzing, so Samsung lottery exists too even on plasmas.
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post #7 of 30 Old 12-07-2013, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by KOF View Post

For black crush, set black level to light instead of dark. Also, set colors to nonstandard (extended) instead of standard. Standard should only be used with movies. Also, check panel brightness to see whether it was set to low and fix it to mid or high. These should fix black crush issues. If however, the pictures are still dim, try playing with AGC and BL. You must be in Custom mode btw.

Standard only for movies? What about tv shows, etc...? I've never heard this mentioned anywhere before. Did you mean to say that you should set it to extended for gaming?
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post #8 of 30 Old 12-07-2013, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by bskubs View Post

Hi, everyone. I just bought myself my first Plasma TV and am facing some issues. Please, be gentle with me :P

1- When I play a video game on my PS4, there's terrible motion blur. It's almost like a "ghost" effect for lack of a better word. I can see lines forming around any objects when the camera pans, and they are always yellow/orange, regardless of the game being played. I tried it with FIFA 14, Killzone Shadowfall and Call of Duty Ghosts. It happens in all of them.

I thought Plasma TVs were supposed to be better in terms of motion blur than LEDs. I didn't have the same issues with my LG LED.

2- Darkness. I understand Plasmas are generally darker than LEDs. The picture looks amazing on this one (calibration settings found on this forum). But I'm talking so dark I can't see anything. In dark scenes, whenever there's shadow or black, everything is so dark it merges together.





I had this TV for a couple of days, therefore, it only has a few hours in it. Does that have anything to do with it? Are those defects? Can I fix this? 

Thanks!

Bummer, this is the second report I'm hearing that this tv is bad for gaming. I have an S64 and had been considering swapping it for this Sammy, but had kinda decided to accept it's compromises, but now this is one more knock against it.

As for the blacks, did you check out any of the settings here or on Cnet from people who have calibrated their sets? This will get you into the ballpark. The deep blacks and shadow detail are supposed to be the strongest qualities of this set. I'm getting some black crush, but that's only because I have mine set a bit darker to try and combat the horrible dithering I'm getting.
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post #9 of 30 Old 12-07-2013, 07:56 AM
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You're going to have to make a hard choice : Blacks or motion performance, both of which are dear to me. For movies, there is no contest. The S60 is simply awesome when it comes to Blu-rays and future 4k contents. (I've seen a few 4k clips at really high bitrate, and boy, I don't even need Sony's 4K TV anymore) The S60 isn't too amazing with low res or low bitrate materials though. Both Youtube and Netflix is ho hum even with SuperHD, and Xbox 360 games look really bad. Scaling/processing is one area I think Samsung has an upper hand.

For games, it's really a toss up. The Samsung will give you better motion performance while the S60 will give you eye candy. The Samsung is brighter as well, which can mitigrate its MLL disadvantage somewhat, so that's a good thing. The Samsung is also a bit cleaner. You may notice ditherings on your S60 too, like speckles. The Samsung will have less of that. But of course, Samsung plasmas also come with the worst buzzing, so Samsung lottery exists too even on plasmas.

I'm getting quite a bit of buzz on my S64. I've heard one member mention his F5300 buzzes less than his Panny. I think it's a lottery with all of them.
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post #10 of 30 Old 12-07-2013, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by aman74 View Post

I'm getting quite a bit of buzz on my S64. I've heard one member mention his F5300 buzzes less than his Panny. I think it's a lottery with all of them.

I agree. It's hit or miss with all plasmas. I've had two Panasonic's including the S60 and they were both pretty quiet. Make sure you set your brightness and contrast a reasonable levels. It will help reduce the noise.



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post #11 of 30 Old 12-07-2013, 10:24 AM
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Unfortunately the motion quality you've heard about largely applies to the top of the line plasmas (ie, your ST60s and above). Even then you'll still get phosphor lag, but it really should be better overall in terms of obscuring detail compared to LCD motion blur, which at 60 fps is severe enough that you cannot even read large font text while it's moving. If we were to compare 120fps LCD to 60fps plasma things get more complicated (on LCD you lose 50% of motion blur each time you double frame rate) but as no console can output 120fps this is largely not worth getting into.

The problem may be less about relative levels of detail loss and more about what bothers you. If you run these tests on your plasma and LCD panels:
http://testufo.com/#test=photo&photo=quebec.jpg&pps=960&pursuit=0&ff=1
http://www.testufo.com/#test=framerates-text

You may (though again I'm uncertain of the motion performance of the S series) find that the plasma does actually preserve more detail. If that's the case then you may just be more easily bothered by the phosphor lag effect itself, so your actual gameplay experience is worse even if you're technically seeing more detail. I also know from my own experience that phosphor lag appears more pronounced as you get closer to the screen while LCD motion blur is essentially a constant factor at any distance, so this aspect may be involved as well.

I have a GT50 which definitely has better motion clarity than any 60hz LCD, but I also know that it's no fun to sit at a distance where it takes up the same % of your field of vision as a PC monitor might. I use this panel when sitting back a bit and playing with a controller to reduce the phosphor lag effect, and in this configuration the panel produces excellent motion quality.

Ironically the "best" motion quality actually comes from LCD panels with strobing backlights (see: lightboost monitors, but this is only a PC thing at the moment @ 120fps). I don't follow LCD TV technology, but there may already be panels out there that can use a similar effect on 60fps input. You might want to look this if you're really interested in motion clarity for 60fps gaming.
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post #12 of 30 Old 12-07-2013, 11:55 AM
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I agree. It's hit or miss with all plasmas. I've had two Panasonic's including the S60 and they were both pretty quiet. Make sure you set your brightness and contrast a reasonable levels. It will help reduce the noise.



Ian

Well, I'm setting my contrast and brightness near where it should be set, not for noise purposes. wink.gif Kinda hard to get anything near calibrated if just ratcheting them down for noise.

My panel did get noisier after I followed advice to loosen and tighten the panel screws to alleviate the screen popping noises. It did help with that, but the buzz got stronger. When I first got it you could only hear it up close.
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post #13 of 30 Old 12-07-2013, 04:09 PM
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Well, I'm setting my contrast and brightness near where it should be set, not for noise purposes. wink.gif .


Proper calibration is 'reasonable'.


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post #14 of 30 Old 12-07-2013, 05:08 PM
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Unfortunately the motion quality you've heard about largely applies to the top of the line plasmas (ie, your ST60s and above). Even then you'll still get phosphor lag, but it really should be better overall in terms of obscuring detail compared to LCD motion blur, which at 60 fps is severe enough that you cannot even read large font text while it's moving. If we were to compare 120fps LCD to 60fps plasma things get more complicated (on LCD you lose 50% of motion blur each time you double frame rate) but as no console can output 120fps this is largely not worth getting into.

The problem may be less about relative levels of detail loss and more about what bothers you. If you run these tests on your plasma and LCD panels:
http://testufo.com/#test=photo&photo=quebec.jpg&pps=960&pursuit=0&ff=1
http://www.testufo.com/#test=framerates-text

You may (though again I'm uncertain of the motion performance of the S series) find that the plasma does actually preserve more detail. If that's the case then you may just be more easily bothered by the phosphor lag effect itself, so your actual gameplay experience is worse even if you're technically seeing more detail. I also know from my own experience that phosphor lag appears more pronounced as you get closer to the screen while LCD motion blur is essentially a constant factor at any distance, so this aspect may be involved as well.

I have a GT50 which definitely has better motion clarity than any 60hz LCD, but I also know that it's no fun to sit at a distance where it takes up the same % of your field of vision as a PC monitor might. I use this panel when sitting back a bit and playing with a controller to reduce the phosphor lag effect, and in this configuration the panel produces excellent motion quality.

Ironically the "best" motion quality actually comes from LCD panels with strobing backlights (see: lightboost monitors, but this is only a PC thing at the moment @ 120fps). I don't follow LCD TV technology, but there may already be panels out there that can use a similar effect on 60fps input. You might want to look this if you're really interested in motion clarity for 60fps gaming.

Most of Lightboost monitors suck because they're TN. The only LCD that can give plasmas a serious competition is Eizo Foris and even that isn't ideal as it's motion performance is not as good as Lightboost. Besides, if I ever wanted to stay small, I'll always haul out my trusty old Sony FW900 CRT. My CRT can also run on 120hz and kill those LCDs with motions AND PQ. For big sized LCD, the only competition comes from Sony W900's MotionPlus Impulse and too bad for Mark it will not beat the S60 in input lag, brightness, and flickering. For console games, plasmas are still king even with 30hz judder. OLED TVs won't give serious competition for a while either.
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post #15 of 30 Old 12-11-2013, 02:39 PM
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So would this be the same or better performance in regard to motion compared to my Panny TC-P42-C2(2010-2011)? I just pulled the trigger on an P50S60 online today via Bestbuy for pickup...
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post #16 of 30 Old 12-11-2013, 04:05 PM - Thread Starter
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So would this be the same or better performance in regard to motion compared to my Panny TC-P42-C2(2010-2011)? I just pulled the trigger on an P50S60 online today via Bestbuy for pickup...

I actually ended up returning mine and putting more money on a ST60. A big part of it because of the motion issues in gaming.

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post #17 of 30 Old 12-11-2013, 07:02 PM
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I actually ended up returning mine and putting more money on a ST60. A big part of it because of the motion issues in gaming.
how does it compare?

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post #18 of 30 Old 12-11-2013, 08:20 PM - Thread Starter
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how does it compare?

The ST60 is much better. Although sometimes I'm still bugged by fast motion (for instance, when I'm browsing menus on Amazon Instant Video), it's a lot, lot better. When gaming, it's pretty much flawless, and I have the Motion Smoother and Game Mode turned off. I'm glad I upgraded, not just for that, but overall.

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post #19 of 30 Old 12-12-2013, 11:16 AM
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The ST60 is much better. Although sometimes I'm still bugged by fast motion (for instance, when I'm browsing menus on Amazon Instant Video), it's a lot, lot better. When gaming, it's pretty much flawless, and I have the Motion Smoother and Game Mode turned off. I'm glad I upgraded, not just for that, but overall.

interesting, my experience with the S60's motion shows some blur when moving the camera around fast in 30 fps shooters like Killzone Shadow Fall Single-Player, but I don't see the phosphor trails under normal conditions (I do see the yellow-green trails when running the screen wipe or the motion tests on the Spears and Munsil HD Benchmark 2nd Edition BD, however. Also, if I scroll rapidly through menus on Netflix, the XMB, or other menus of the sort).

Are you sure your S60 was properly calibrated? Using settings similar to these? And was your PS4 set to limited for RGB? (not auto or full)

--Picture menu
Picture mode: Cinema
Contrast: 100
Brightness: +1
Color: 46
Tint: +2
Sharpness: 0
Color temp: Warm 2
Vivid Color: Off
C.A.T.S.: Off
Video NR: Off
MPEG NR: Off

-- Pro settings submenu
Panel brightness: Mid
AGC: 0
Black extension: 0
Color Gamut: Normal

Gamma detail adjustment menu:
Gamma: 2.4

--Advanced picture submenu
24p Direct in: 60Hz
3:2 pulldown: On [often grayed out depending on source]
1080p pixel direct: Off [often grayed out depending on source]
HDMI content type: [all Off]
HDMI/DVI RGB range: [all Standard (16-235)]
Black level: Light

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post #20 of 30 Old 12-12-2013, 01:26 PM
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Okay let me ask any fellow gamers that may be here.

Xbox 360 connected via Component will there be any special settings to turn on or off?
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post #21 of 30 Old 01-03-2014, 08:16 AM
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Whats the input lag on the S60? the sony W900A is reported being at 17ms in game mode. it's little brother (W802A) is at 16ms, but the picture quality isnt as good as the 900 (but still better than most other lcds out there).

The 900a and 802a are quickly gaining a reputation for thr hdtvs to buy for hardcore gaming.

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post #22 of 30 Old 01-05-2014, 10:42 AM
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I read on cnet that the input lag on the S60 is 32ms.
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post #23 of 30 Old 01-05-2014, 10:45 AM
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my F5300 buzzes a whole lot less than my S60 and it seems to be less prone to ir (and the scrolling bar gets rid of any very quickly)

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post #24 of 30 Old 01-05-2014, 10:52 AM
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my F5300 buzzes a whole lot less than my S60 and it seems to be less prone to ir (and the scrolling bar gets rid of any very quickly)

My S60's buzzing isn't audible unless you are right on top of the set. IR is barely noticable and a big improvement over my C2. I guess it's just the luck of the draw. wink.gif


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post #25 of 30 Old 01-05-2014, 01:02 PM
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mine was a loud buzzer compared to this Samsung

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post #26 of 30 Old 01-05-2014, 05:17 PM
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mine was a loud buzzer compared to this Samsung

You had a lot of issues with that TV. Maybe it was built on a Monday. biggrin.gif Hopefully you will have better luck with this set. wink.gif


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You had a lot of issues with that TV. Maybe it was built on a Monday. biggrin.gif Hopefully you will have better luck with this set. wink.gif


Ian

I didn't realize the buzzing was loud until I compared it to the Samsung. Regarding the slightly rising blacks, that may be the case for all S60s. So, the issues are really just the dead pixel and shadowy horizontal line going through the center of the screen (from left edge of screen to right edge of screen).

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post #28 of 30 Old 01-05-2014, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I didn't realize the buzzing was loud until I compared it to the Samsung. Regarding the slightly rising blacks, that may be the case for all S60s. So, the issues are really just the dead pixel and shadowy horizontal line going through the center of the screen (from left edge of screen to right edge of screen).

My S60 and my C2 sound pretty much the same, but buzzing issues on plasmas can vary from set to set. There have been complaints about Samsung's buzzing as well. As far as the rising blacks are concerned, only time will tell, but since it is subtle, there is the possibility that as the panel ages, calibration also changes and may require minor tweaks now and then.


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post #29 of 30 Old 01-06-2014, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

My S60 and my C2 sound pretty much the same, but buzzing issues on plasmas can vary from set to set. There have been complaints about Samsung's buzzing as well. As far as the rising blacks are concerned, only time will tell, but since it is subtle, there is the possibility that as the panel ages, calibration also changes and may require minor tweaks now and then.


Ian
could be, I just wanted to clarify I don't believe the black level behavior I noticed on my s60 was atypical

The F5300 goes down to 0.004 fL, with black optimizer set to dark room. However, it lightens quite a bit with normal to high apl scenes. Only low apl scenes have truly deep blacks. Also, you can actually see the black level fluctuate visibly at times with some content which looks like pulsing.

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post #30 of 30 Old 06-06-2018, 03:34 PM
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Still rocking this baby in 2018 (4 dead pixels but no biggy) as my main gaming TV. The input lag has not bothered me really though I don't really play competitive MP. It has been the best $600 I've ever spent and this is coming from a mainly LCD guy. Just recently upgraded to the A1E for my movie viewing. Thinking about getting a TCL for my gaming because of HDR. So here is my question, what the hell is HDR. Do Plasmas really need them, I always thought that because of their deeper blacks, they had more details in shadows and in brightness. Is HDR a gimmick?

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