Why I Bought a Plasma HDTV in 2014 - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 1020 Old 06-16-2014, 08:12 AM
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Like you, Mark, I became overly sensitive to the edge-lit LCD artifacts, particularly in low-light conditions. That is what drove me to look at TVs last year and eventually settle on a Panasonic S64 plasma to replace my Samsung 6000 series LCD. The Samsung was a nice TV, actually, so getting rid of it wasn't easy. I liked the styling and PQ, particularly during the day.

Having had a Panasonic plasma previously, I was concerned about reflections and ambient light. My intention was to get the ST60, or perhaps the Samsung F8500, albeit at a smaller screen size, probably close 50" since anything larger was out of my budget. I even drove to the north side of Indianapolis to view the F8500 next to the VT60 and ZT60. But alas, Sam's Club had the S64, the S60 but with the anti-reflective filter of the ST60 added, and at less than $1300 for 65" I was sold...er, it was sold! Best Buy had the ST60 in 60" for about $200 more and it only went on sale once for $50 less, if I recall correctly. So I opted for the extra screen size and lower input lag and got the S64. But the other issue was the generous return policy at Sam's (90 days) that allowed me plenty of time to evaluate the TV in my environment as opposed to Best Buy's 15 days. A 65" TV is not easy to move around!

Since then I have been very happy. Within weeks of buying the S64 Sam's had a sale and the TVs were quickly sold out, never to be seen again. The floor model was sold for just under $1000. Gravity, Skyfall, and pretty much everything looks great. Daytime watching isn't a problem on this set like it was with the earlier plasma I had which lacked the AR filter. Plus, this one is set back a little farther in the room since it is wall mounted. No longer am I annoyed by clouding, light-bleeding, and other artifacts. There are times I think perhaps I should have held out to get an ST60 or VT60 on sale, but that would have been a huge risk. The S64 offered an excellent value on a terrific TV at the time, when Panasonic hadn't officially yet announced they were halting plasma production. So, I am thankful that I bought the plasma when I did and I hope to enjoy it for many years to come.

Welcome to the plasma family!
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post #32 of 1020 Old 06-16-2014, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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I went through 2 different 60F8500s earlier this year. The constant buzz when sitting directly in front of the panel in my main watching position was too much to handle, especially in a $2500+ television.

Finally went with a 65F8000 and I'm very happy (although I do miss the inky blacks).

Have you noticed any audible buzz with your new plasma?
It is completely inaudible from my main listening position, which is exactly seven feet back. I can hear it starting at about 3-4 feet away, it's not silent.
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post #33 of 1020 Old 06-16-2014, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
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How do you like the Pentile matrix screen?
I'm sitting just far enough back that it's irrelevant. If that's how Samsung got the price down this low, more power to it.
So after some reading, apparently the Pentile Matrix screen is not full 1080P in the vertical direction, what is the effect of this on the image? My current Panasonic is a 768P TV, so I guess I wouldn't know any better, but for the $800 price tag it has me cautious.
It's only relevant for 4:4:4 video. It is full 1080p in terms of luminance. The loss in chroma resolution does not negatively impact 4:2:2 source material like Blu-ray and OTA TV. It's just a non-issue. Resolution test charts and alternating-pixel test patterns confirm it is providing full 1080p resolution for rec. 709 content.

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post #34 of 1020 Old 06-16-2014, 08:54 AM
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Well if Mark is going to invest in a TV with "outdated" technology, I'm gonna buy one of these badboys..

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Plasma vs Lasers: Lasers wins..
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post #35 of 1020 Old 06-16-2014, 08:57 AM
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How do you like the Pentile matrix screen?
I'm sitting just far enough back that it's irrelevant. If that's how Samsung got the price down this low, more power to it.
So after some reading, apparently the Pentile Matrix screen is not full 1080P in the vertical direction, what is the effect of this on the image? My current Panasonic is a 768P TV, so I guess I wouldn't know any better, but for the $800 price tag it has me cautious.
It's only relevant for 4:4:4 video. It is full 1080p in terms of luminance. The loss in chroma resolution does not negatively impact 4:2:2 source material like Blu-ray and OTA TV. It's just a non-issue. Resolution test charts and alternating-pixel test patterns confirm it is providing full 1080p resolution for rec. 709 content.
Okay so forgive my ignorance, what does 4:4:4 video constitute? I guess I shouldn't have any issues, I watch Blu-Rays and stream from Roku, and occasionally watch OTA with my antenna.

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post #36 of 1020 Old 06-16-2014, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
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How do you like the Pentile matrix screen?
I'm sitting just far enough back that it's irrelevant. If that's how Samsung got the price down this low, more power to it.
So after some reading, apparently the Pentile Matrix screen is not full 1080P in the vertical direction, what is the effect of this on the image? My current Panasonic is a 768P TV, so I guess I wouldn't know any better, but for the $800 price tag it has me cautious.
It's only relevant for 4:4:4 video. It is full 1080p in terms of luminance. The loss in chroma resolution does not negatively impact 4:2:2 source material like Blu-ray and OTA TV. It's just a non-issue. Resolution test charts and alternating-pixel test patterns confirm it is providing full 1080p resolution for rec. 709 content.
Okay so forgive my ignorance, what does 4:4:4 video constitute? I guess I shouldn't have any issues, I watch Blu-Rays and stream from Roku, and occasionally watch OTA with my antenna.

4:4:4 video has the same amount of brightness and color info per pixel. Chroma subsampling is used by Blu-ray and other rec.709 sources to help compress the video signal. With 4:2:2 video, there is half as much color (chroma) resolution as there is brightness (luma) resolution. So, the reduction in vertical color resolution with the F5300, that is the result of the Pentile matrix, is a non-issue. The main objection with Pentile is the pixel grid becomes visible from a bit further away (screen door effect) than it does with a standard RGB layout. However, you'd have to sit rather close to the screen to see it.

Here's an image from wikipedia:
"In full size, this image shows the difference between four subsampling schemes. Note how similar the color images appear. The lower row shows the resolution of the color information." - wikipedia
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post #37 of 1020 Old 06-16-2014, 09:21 AM
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If I didn't play so many video games, I'd go plasma, all the way. Although, burn-in has lessened over the last several years, I still don't want to take the risk, because there are occasions when I'm playing the same game for several hours in a row. That and video games really pop and look sharp on a nice, bright LCD. But, for movie watching, plasma can rarely be beaten, unless you have the sun beaming straight into your room.

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post #38 of 1020 Old 06-16-2014, 09:42 AM
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Thanks imagic! That is very helpful, and it seems that this really is a non-issue. I would be sitting about 10 feet away so I should be fine with regards to the pixel grid.

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post #39 of 1020 Old 06-16-2014, 10:01 AM
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Congrats on the purchase. I still enjoy my entry level Samsung I purchased a few years ago. This weekend the family was at the in-laws lake house where they have a 60ish (not sure exact size) Sam LED. My wife, of all people, told me that "it looked weird". I had noticed the soap opera effect and how poor it was handling motion but I just thought that was me being overly aware and critical. Granted, it wasn't calibrated, but I couldn't get passed the quality and neither could she. Much to my surprise!

I just hope there are plasma-like TVs around when my current set dies... (I'm too cheap to replace something that works and there's no other space for it).
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post #40 of 1020 Old 06-16-2014, 10:03 AM
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Plasamas remind me of all tube TVs....even when turned off. The dark gray glass.
if you don't give them a chance, you'll never find out the truth...


what you think they ALL look like:



what most of the GOOD ones look like:



anything that can be put over the screen of an lcd to make it look 'black' can also be put on the plasma to make it look 'black'.
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post #41 of 1020 Old 06-16-2014, 10:19 AM
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My current Panny has some glare when it's off, but when I am watching something there is no issue with reflections.

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post #42 of 1020 Old 06-16-2014, 10:26 AM
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Mark-

You never seem to talk about the glare/reflectivity issue. I find the the reflections in the black rectangles of your checkerboard distracting.

The films of De Sica, of Welles, of Michael Powell and Emeric Pressburger made little money and endure as spiritual delights.
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post #43 of 1020 Old 06-16-2014, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Mark-

You never seem to talk about the glare/reflectivity issue. I find the the reflections in the black rectangles of your checkerboard distracting.
It is an issue for bright rooms. I don't watch that TV with the lights on. I had the lights on to take that picture so you could see the TV itself. The screen is reflective and you can see that quite clearly in the photo. My room has all gray walls and a gray carpet, so reflections are not an issue with the lights down or off. I still have a LCD HDTV for daytime use and computer work, as well as 3D viewing.

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post #44 of 1020 Old 06-16-2014, 11:06 AM
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Maltby you will be lucky if you found a 2014 LCD TV with a matte screen.I haven't seen one without a glossy reflective screen.
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post #45 of 1020 Old 06-16-2014, 11:17 AM
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I also think the TV you chose is the best sub $1000 TV on the market and it is 60"!
Yep, I have one.
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post #46 of 1020 Old 06-16-2014, 11:19 AM
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Well if Mark is going to invest in a TV with "outdated" technology, I'm gonna buy one of these badboys..

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Front-projection DLP is better.
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post #47 of 1020 Old 06-16-2014, 11:20 AM
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It seems penny wise and pound foolish to buy a plasma today, given the upcoming new ultra high definitions displays, especially in light of Scott Wilkinsons's many pod casts concerning the subject.
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post #48 of 1020 Old 06-16-2014, 11:26 AM
 
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It seems penny wise and pound foolish to buy a plasma today, given the upcoming new ultra high definitions displays, especially in light of Scott Wilkinsons's many pod casts concerning the subject.
UHD is a moving standard with HDCP still in the wings along with other variables in a potential 4K disc format. Most of those upcoming UHD displays will still suffer in the screen uniformity, black level, and shadow detail departments (though I suspect more than a few of them will eclipse a lower tier Samsung plasma). The only exception I could acknowledge is if you intend to grab one of those costly FALD units from Sony (or the rumored Vizio R) or the LG OLEDs.
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post #49 of 1020 Old 06-16-2014, 11:27 AM
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It seems penny wise and pound foolish to buy a plasma today, given the upcoming new ultra high definitions displays, especially in light of Scott Wilkinsons's many pod casts concerning the subject.
Only if retailers kill them off. I would rather have a fast 4K projector than a slow 4K LCD TV.
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post #50 of 1020 Old 06-16-2014, 11:28 AM
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My wife wanted a bigger screen than our 46" Sony LCD after watching our neighbors 55" Sony. So we started looking around. One of our neighbors pushed plasma at us, invited us in to see his older plasma, which we weren't impressed with. The first thing he did was turn the lights off, then we watched his somewhat fuzzy picture which he thought looked great. But he had planted a seed in our brains. We looked around, all over the place, including the original Paul's TV in La Habra, CA, which is reasonably close to us. We told the salesman about our "plasma snob" neighbor pushing it on us, and he said he was a "plasma snob" too, but would show us the best of everything he had. We got to compare side by side the Panasonic ST60 and an good quality LED TV, though I forget the model. We were quite impressed that the P60ST60 did not need a darkened room to watch and enjoy TV. We did buy our 60ST60 at Best Buy due to the extended return policy for premium members. OMG! I have become a plasma snob! Well, not quite, but it is the best picture we have ever seen. We don't like sitting in a dark room to watch TV, and we have a northern exposure, so no sunlight streaming into the room to shine directly on the screen. Normal TV we watch with the lights on even, and have no glare problems. And the picture on our ST60 is beautiful. Movie nights though, we close the blinds, turn on the small lights on either side of the TV that are slightly behind the screen, and turn off the other lights in the area. We now have the most beautiful picture imaginable, sharp, clear, with the most beautiful color giving us a picture that actually has depth, and that is 2D mode.

Yes, plasma does make a difference. We never thought we'd go the plasma route, and now kick ourselves for not doing it sooner. Though the ST60 probably makes a difference as it can be enjoyed in a normally lit room. But for movie night, the theater has come into our home.
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post #51 of 1020 Old 06-16-2014, 11:30 AM - Thread Starter
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It seems penny wise and pound foolish to buy a plasma today, given the upcoming new ultra high definitions displays, especially in light of Scott Wilkinsons's many pod casts concerning the subject.
Not at all, it'll be a while before UHD/4K becomes ubiquitous. If I wait just one year to buy a 60 inch UHDTV, I'll almost certainly save more than the F5300 cost me, while getting more mature tech. And even then it's not guaranteed that a UHDTV will outperform even a modest plasma for dark room viewing of 1080p cinematic content—in fact it's quite a tall order for all but the best LCDs.

I talk with Scott just about every day, if I was making a misguided decision, he'd let me know.
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post #52 of 1020 Old 06-16-2014, 11:36 AM
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It seems penny wise and pound foolish to buy a plasma today, given the upcoming new ultra high definitions displays, especially in light of Scott Wilkinsons's many pod casts concerning the subject.
UHD is a moving standard with HDCP still in the wings along with other variables in a potential 4K disc format. Most of those upcoming UHD displays will still suffer in the screen uniformity, black level, and shadow detail departments (though I suspect more than a few of them will eclipse a lower tier Samsung plasma). The only exception I could acknowledge is if you intend to grab one of those costly FALD units from Sony (or the rumored Vizio R) or the LG OLEDs.
My point is that one has to wait until those standards are established, otherwise saving a few dollars now will cost one a lot down the line and one will be saddled with dramatically out of date technology. Even those units that were cited as exceptions will not have Dolby Vision that is almost sure to become an industry standard.
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post #53 of 1020 Old 06-16-2014, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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It seems penny wise and pound foolish to buy a plasma today, given the upcoming new ultra high definitions displays, especially in light of Scott Wilkinsons's many pod casts concerning the subject.
UHD is a moving standard with HDCP still in the wings along with other variables in a potential 4K disc format. Most of those upcoming UHD displays will still suffer in the screen uniformity, black level, and shadow detail departments (though I suspect more than a few of them will eclipse a lower tier Samsung plasma). The only exception I could acknowledge is if you intend to grab one of those costly FALD units from Sony (or the rumored Vizio R) or the LG OLEDs.
My point is that one has to wait until those standards are established, otherwise saving a few dollars now will cost one a lot down the line and one will be saddled with dramatically out of date technology. Even those units that were cited as exceptions will not have Dolby Vision that is almost sure to become an industry standard.
Right, so until UHD/4K standards are worked out and all that, why not just buy an inexpensive yet high-performance 1080p plasma? Why is that pound-foolish? 1080p content isn't going anywhere anytime soon. How is Dolby Vision guaranteed to be an industry standard? Because Vizio said it'll be included on an unreleased TV?

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post #54 of 1020 Old 06-16-2014, 11:45 AM
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@ fookoo_2010
I haven't seen an LCD yet, that can do a perfect 1080p. I suspect a lot of LCD TVs do 720p at half the frame rate, or refresh. 1080p is established, but UHD or 4K isn't. By the time 4K might get established, which is too high of a resolution for anything but close viewing, Plasma Display may be able to copy it technically. If you are desperate for 4k at 48 frames per second or more, get a projector.
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post #55 of 1020 Old 06-16-2014, 11:46 AM
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Mark-

You never seem to talk about the glare/reflectivity issue. I find the the reflections in the black rectangles of your checkerboard distracting.
It is an issue for bright rooms. I don't watch that TV with the lights on. I had the lights on to take that picture so you could see the TV itself. The screen is reflective and you can see that quite clearly in the photo. My room has all gray walls and a gray carpet, so reflections are not an issue with the lights down or off. I still have a LCD HDTV for daytime use and computer work, as well as 3D viewing.

In the situation you describe I always think front projector, not plasma. Throw an 8 foot screen instead of a 4 foot screen.

On the glare issue, do you ever ask the manufacturers you talk to about things like moth eye, which reduce glare?

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post #56 of 1020 Old 06-16-2014, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Mark-

You never seem to talk about the glare/reflectivity issue. I find the the reflections in the black rectangles of your checkerboard distracting.
It is an issue for bright rooms. I don't watch that TV with the lights on. I had the lights on to take that picture so you could see the TV itself. The screen is reflective and you can see that quite clearly in the photo. My room has all gray walls and a gray carpet, so reflections are not an issue with the lights down or off. I still have a LCD HDTV for daytime use and computer work, as well as 3D viewing.

In the situation you describe I always think front projector, not plasma. Throw an 8 foot screen instead of a 4 foot screen.

On the glare issue, do you ever ask the manufacturers you talk to about things like moth eye, which reduce glare?
Sometimes I run a projector, but not for the past few months. The gray walls work well with a bias light, and they do reduce reflections when the room is not totally dark. Projectors have their own issues, I find it is too much of a hassle. When projectors are affordable, 4K, and LED-lit... I'm in. At least my room is ready.

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post #57 of 1020 Old 06-16-2014, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by fookoo_2010 View Post
It seems penny wise and pound foolish to buy a plasma today, given the upcoming new ultra high definitions displays, especially in light of Scott Wilkinsons's many pod casts concerning the subject.
UHD is a moving standard with HDCP still in the wings along with other variables in a potential 4K disc format. Most of those upcoming UHD displays will still suffer in the screen uniformity, black level, and shadow detail departments (though I suspect more than a few of them will eclipse a lower tier Samsung plasma). The only exception I could acknowledge is if you intend to grab one of those costly FALD units from Sony (or the rumored Vizio R) or the LG OLEDs.
My point is that one has to wait until those standards are established, otherwise saving a few dollars now will cost one a lot down the line and one will be saddled with dramatically out of date technology. Even those units that were cited as exceptions will not have Dolby Vision that is almost sure to become an industry standard.
Right, so until UHD/4K standards are worked out and all that, why not just buy an inexpensive yet high-performance 1080p plasma? Why is that pound-foolish? 1080p content isn't going anywhere anytime soon. How is Dolby Vision guaranteed to be an industry standard? Because Vizio said it'll be included on an unreleased TV?
I did not write guaranteed, but given Dolby's financial resources and their efforts in putting together the technology, it might not be wise to bet against them. For your purposes, a 1080p plasma display fits your criteria and it is your money. The upcoming UHDs will need to be a lot bigger than 60" for one to see the difference at "normal" viewing distances.
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post #58 of 1020 Old 06-16-2014, 11:58 AM
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Plasamas remind me of all tube TVs....even when turned off. The dark gray glass.
if you don't give them a chance, you'll never find out the truth...


what you think they ALL look like:
They all look like this in daylight.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/167-pl...l#post24707318


However, the fascinating thing I thought from the beginning is how LCD and Plasma are quite strangely fascinating for viewing. Most of the time Plasma is quite poor in a day lit room but comes alive at night.

LCD looks great during the day with Plasma blacks and no immersion. The LCD blacks die at night. They aren't awful but they aren't like looking into a pitch black blackboard. When the Plasma comes alive.


Opening scenes of Gravity on a Plasma when the room lit up from complete darkness, after temporary squinting…



As well as Casino Royale.
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post #59 of 1020 Old 06-16-2014, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fookoo_2010 View Post
It seems penny wise and pound foolish to buy a plasma today, given the upcoming new ultra high definitions displays, especially in light of Scott Wilkinsons's many pod casts concerning the subject.
UHD is a moving standard with HDCP still in the wings along with other variables in a potential 4K disc format. Most of those upcoming UHD displays will still suffer in the screen uniformity, black level, and shadow detail departments (though I suspect more than a few of them will eclipse a lower tier Samsung plasma). The only exception I could acknowledge is if you intend to grab one of those costly FALD units from Sony (or the rumored Vizio R) or the LG OLEDs.
My point is that one has to wait until those standards are established, otherwise saving a few dollars now will cost one a lot down the line and one will be saddled with dramatically out of date technology. Even those units that were cited as exceptions will not have Dolby Vision that is almost sure to become an industry standard.
Right, so until UHD/4K standards are worked out and all that, why not just buy an inexpensive yet high-performance 1080p plasma? Why is that pound-foolish? 1080p content isn't going anywhere anytime soon. How is Dolby Vision guaranteed to be an industry standard? Because Vizio said it'll be included on an unreleased TV?
I did not write guaranteed, but given Dolby's financial resources and their efforts in putting together the technology, it might not be wise to bet against them. For your purposes, a 1080p plasma display fits your criteria and it is your money. The upcoming UHDs will need to be a lot bigger than 60" for one to see the difference at "normal" viewing distances.
I saw Dolby Vision at CES and I strongly want it to succeed as a technology, or rather I really want HDR to succeed. But, Dolby was a company that dealt with sound—the new foray into video processing is not something that's guaranteed to succeed, although I agree Dolby has as good a shot as anyone at making it happen. The thing is, I'd rather see HDR implemented as an open standard, not as a Dolby proprietary technology. But I'd rather have HDR than not, so whatever works.
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post #60 of 1020 Old 06-16-2014, 12:02 PM
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I bought a Samsung F8500 Open Box at HHGregg for 1,500 about a week ago, and returned it Friday due too an annoying buzzing. I then bought a 60 St60 on craigslist for 1,200, I know a little high but it had limited hours (500) and included a 4 year transferal warranty. So far I can tell the Samsung was brighter, almost too bright. The panny was already professionally calibrated where I never calibrated the Samsung so I cannot do a apples to apples comparison on picture. Overall both TV's blow away the Sony 50 KDL LED I owned previously in high and low light, in fact the 50' 2009 Panasonic Plasma I borrowed beat the Sony. Kinda wish I just bought a higher end plasma years ago and kept it rather then reinvesting in trends (yes I bought the led trend and the 3d trend)

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