F8500 will be my last high end TV ever, and I'm finally glad plasma is gone - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Oplasmic View Post
Unfortunately, $3,500 is becoming the norm for a mid-range TV.
what?

Microcenter has the LG 65" 4K OLED for $3500 right now

I personally paid $1800 for my 64F8500( open box)
Samsung actually replaced the panel under warranty about 13 months into my ownership

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post #32 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by BriCo View Post
I know this is going to make me seem like a total idiot. My understanding was that Image Retention and "burn-in" were a result from leaving an image on the screen for a "long" period of time. Since black is the absence of light, what image exactly are black side bars, and how does no light leave a burned-in image?
As fierce_gt noted, IR is essentially uneven wearing of phosphors. When a plasma is run with normal full-screen, constantly changing content, all the phosphors across the screen are aging at roughly the same rate. When running black bars the phosphors are not being used in those areas and age at a lower rate than the section of screen between the bars where the normal image is being shown. The difference in phosphor aging results in different performance from the areas of the screen with different phosphor aging. In this case the IR is actually occuring in the large of the screen between the black bars. Rather than a small area where there is a fixed bright image aging the phosphors at a higher rate, it's the entire area between the black bars where the phosphors are aging faster than those in the black bars.
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post #33 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 11:53 AM
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I agree that buying a high-end TV makes sense only for the rich. If you get a cheaper set, you can replace it in a couple of years and your new TV will be better than if you had kept the old high-end set.
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post #34 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by bob brennan View Post
Disney WOW has a "PIXEL FLIPPER" Let it run overnight - can work wonders.
Is it any better than the Scrolling feature on the Samsungs or the flash-thingy that someone posted at AVS ?
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post #35 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
As fierce_gt noted, IR is essentially uneven wearing of phosphors. When a plasma is run with normal full-screen, constantly changing content, all the phosphors across the screen are aging at roughly the same rate. When running black bars the phosphors are not being used in those areas and age at a lower rate than the section of screen between the bars where the normal image is being shown. The difference in phosphor aging results in different performance from the areas of the screen with different phosphor aging. In this case the IR is actually occuring in the large of the screen between the black bars. Rather than a small area where there is a fixed bright image aging the phosphors at a higher rate, it's the entire area between the black bars where the phosphors are aging faster than those in the black bars.
I've got a Panny ZT60 and until OLED comes out I'll stick with the plasma for 99% of my viewing. It's hooked up to Plex (fortunately) which dims the screen significantly after about 2 minutes of pausing. This screen saving dimming mode has certainly been a help at keeping IR off the screen. I've looked at some of the 4K screens, but they all still have LCD issues as of last year and just seem like sub-optimal technology even in the 4K sets. OLED will likely address most of those, and as soon as they drop to the $2-3K range for a reasonable screen, I may look at upgrading, or I may just go for a projector. Depends upon what the future brings.

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post #36 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
As fierce_gt noted, IR is essentially uneven wearing of phosphors. When a plasma is run with normal full-screen, constantly changing content, all the phosphors across the screen are aging at roughly the same rate. When running black bars the phosphors are not being used in those areas and age at a lower rate than the section of screen between the bars where the normal image is being shown. The difference in phosphor aging results in different performance from the areas of the screen with different phosphor aging. In this case the IR is actually occuring in the large of the screen between the black bars. Rather than a small area where there is a fixed bright image aging the phosphors at a higher rate, it's the entire area between the black bars where the phosphors are aging faster than those in the black bars.
(1) But we are not talking about watching ONLY 4:3 content for years or even months...some people are getting it after weeks or even days (hours ?).

(2) Most/All of them are watching other content too -- giving the TV 'a break' -- as opposed to 24/7 100% of the time having bars on the TV.

(3) After initial break-ins, it seems the older generaiton of 1080p and 720p TVs weren't as susceptible to IR/BI. After the initial break-in of a few hundred hours my 2 Philips 9631 720p Plasmas from 2009 would watch CNBC or CNN or Fox for hours at a time.

I never got IR/BI -- I wonder if the lower overall brightness of the TVs back then impeded IR/BI ?


Or maybe our current Cell Light/Brightness/Contrast settings are too high ?
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post #37 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by rduclett View Post
I agree that buying a high-end TV makes sense only for the rich. If you get a cheaper set, you can replace it in a couple of years and your new TV will be better than if you had kept the old high-end set.
Bought my Panny 65" ZT60 for $2300. That's no different that many of the mid-range current 4K prices. (Yes, timing is everything, almost wish I'd bought 2)
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post #38 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilipsPhanatic View Post
[B]Or maybe our current Cell Light/Brightness/Contrast settings are too high ?
I have mine calibrated for movies in a low-light environment. I do not have any issues with IR. I do have issues with banding due to a lack of color depth, which happens across the board with 1080P TVs, but it is almost bearable with the ZT. I strongly suspect 10 bit 4K sets won't have these issues, and my current monitor doesn't. One of these days I'm going to have to really investigate that effect to see if I can eliminate it.
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post #39 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by breezy2012 View Post
......snip.... I watch many 4:3 programs. .
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Originally Posted by breezy2012 View Post
I say again - there's no way watching 5 hours (I don't even think it was that long, I think I only watched 4 episodes) of 4:3 should ruin a $3500 TV. No way. If that's the case plasma was more flawed that I ever could have imagined.
There's a couple of things here. 1) it didn't happen with only 5 hours of viewing. Through your own admission, you watch many 4:3 programs. The effect is that the side bars didn't shift as much as the 4:3 area because they weren't being used during playback of 4:3 content. 2) Solution....to even out the wear so that the sidebars to match the 4:3 area, find one of the jpgs floating around where the 4:3 area is black and the side bars are white. Play it until the difference is no longer objectionable.

As a practical matter, I prefer 4:3 content with the black bars too. I had a Pioneer plasma that did the same thing back when there were still a lot of 4:3 content being broadcast. The difference is that I knew it would happen but made the conscious decision to watch 4:3 content that way rather than stretched or zoomed. I'd rather enjoy the picture and have some burn in than watch a distorted picture.
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post #40 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 12:21 PM
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Pioneer must of known something Samsung / Panasonic didn't?

I've been using a 5080HD since 2008 and never think about what is being displayed on screen, I've seen a few brief instances of IR but they always go away literally within a few minutes of playing normal content again (vs. static images such as a paused video game) TV is mainly used for gaming (X1 / PS4 currently) and I've always watched 4:3 content with black bars on sides when possible although 4:3 content isn't a common thing for us.
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post #41 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilipsPhanatic View Post
After initial break-ins, it seems the older generaiton of 1080p and 720p TVs weren't as susceptible to IR/BI. After the initial break-in of a few hundred hours my 2 Philips 9631 720p Plasmas from 2009 would watch CNBC or CNN or Fox for hours at a time.
Like I posted on another thread, I've never experienced any IR issues on my 2013 Panasonic S60, but my older 2010 C2 produced some stubborn IR when displaying sports tickers.

Ian
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post #42 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post
There's a couple of things here. 1) it didn't happen with only 5 hours of viewing. Through your own admission, you watch many 4:3 programs. The effect is that the side bars didn't shift as much as the 4:3 area because they weren't being used during playback of 4:3 content. 2) Solution....to even out the wear so that the sidebars to match the 4:3 area, find one of the jpgs floating around where the 4:3 area is black and the side bars are white. Play it until the difference is no longer objectionable. ...
Good points and good solution. The areas where the black bars have been need more phosphor aging until they match the phosphors in the 4:3 active area.

Phosphor aging differential has a cumulative effect, so it should slowly become noticeable over a period of time from watching a lot of 4:3 content with black bars. The odd part is that the OP claims to have watched a lot of 4:3 content with black bars and saw no IR, then it suddenly appeared out of nowhere after a single 5-hour session. If that's an accurate description of what happened it's different from any other case I've read about.
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post #43 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilipsPhanatic View Post
Is it any better than the Scrolling feature on the Samsungs or the flash-thingy that someone posted at AVS ?
The Disney WOW is considered one of the best calibration disc and the pixel flipper one of the best to deal with IR

http://www.cnet.com/how-to/reviewed-...for-your-hdtv/

http://hometheaterreview.com/disney-...-blu-ray-disc/

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post #44 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
....snip... The odd part is that the OP claims to have watched a lot of 4:3 content with black bars and saw no IR, then it suddenly appeared out of nowhere after a single 5-hour session. If that's an accurate description of what happened it's different from any other case I've read about.
Its probably like that one pixel you never noticed was stuck. One day you see it and then you can't take your eyes off of it. That's what happened to me and my wife. I couldn't take my eyes off her once I noticed her and bam..we're married. lol
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post #45 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 01:00 PM
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OLED-LCD(really colored liquid crystal)
No such thing.
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post #46 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 01:27 PM
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I'm sorry to hear about the burn in. That sucks.

I have a Panasonic ED Plasma still going from 2001, we play everything regardless of AR, and no burn in that I cnn see after 15 years!

Still, I remember worrying about it and it's nice, having moved to projection for my main viewing, and an LCD for regular TV viewing, not to even think about it anymore.
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post #47 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Mathesar View Post
Pioneer must of known something Samsung / Panasonic didn't?

I've been using a 5080HD since 2008 and never think about what is being displayed on screen, I've seen a few brief instances of IR but they always go away literally within a few minutes of playing normal content again (vs. static images such as a paused video game) TV is mainly used for gaming (X1 / PS4 currently) and I've always watched 4:3 content with black bars on sides when possible although 4:3 content isn't a common thing for us.
They really did. But with that said: I've never experienced any persistent IR/burn-in with any of the three Panasonic plasmas I myself have owned-- two of which I still own and operate on a weekly basis, a 50S30 and a 55VT60. Temporary IR on the S30 is especially bad as any scene with a lot of contrast (like the menus of a video game) show for several seconds afterward. But I've yet to see any persistent IR. The VT60 just isn't used that much outside of the occasional movie or Netflix binge but it was left on a static DVD menu for more than an hour by accident (girfriend) and still no ill result.


I love my plasmas but they will be the last TVs I buy. The price/size ratio of flatpanels sucks. My last display purchase was a BenQ2050 and a 100" fixed screen to project onto. The only way I buy another flat screen is if they somehow engineer a monster OLED that can roll into a tube for transport into my house. I've lugged my last 50"+ display!
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post #48 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 03:22 PM
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Black Bar Stuff, etc.

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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
Plasma and lots of black bar stuff is not a good combination. When buying a Plasma watching lots of black bar stuff will have consequences over time, should take three/four years though before problems start. When watching lots of black bar stuff LCd is the best choice...or buy a Plasma/LCd and use LCd for black bar stuff. Even a OLED should be able to handle black bar stuff these days.
Back in late 2010, I bought a Panasonic TC-P50VT25 from BB. I'm partially disabled, so I watch more TV than most at 12+ hours a day on average, 7 days a week. I'm so pleased that I haven't experienced any of the burn in, temporary or otherwise. Maybe I got an exceptional panel? The black is as black as they come and the colors are still as vibrant as ever. The black is so good, that when I'm watching a cropped picture, the black area is so black, it looks like the TV isn't even on and transitions perfectly to black on the picture. I watch it in a darker room, with the shades partially drawn for the best picture. I couldn't be more pleased. I'm going on 6 years this year and it's been a flawless purchase. It looks like my experience hasn't been the same for everyone, which is unfortunate. Some have said it was because when I first bought it, I started running it from the get go with 12+ hours daily, 7 days a week. Heck, I don't know, but I've never had to use the screen wipe feature either. Best of luck to you all!
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post #49 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by breezy2012 View Post
A few months out of warranty my F8500 has developed permanent IR.

It happened after a very innocuous 5 or 6 hour 4:3 viewing session (Star Trek Voyager, iirc). I turned the TV on the next day and the 4:3 pillar on the right side was very noticeable. The one on the left was visible as well but not nearly as bad. I've had this issue before so I initially didn't think too much of it, but even after 2 days of full screen viewing it remained very prominent, especially in bright scenes. I decided to do a 24 hour screen wipe which had always taken care of any IR I've had. No effect - the IR was exactly as visible as before.

I let it run longer but even after 2 straight days of wiping the IR hasn't dissipated in the slightest. I have to assume at this point it's permanent. The TV is still usable but to my eyes, for all practical purposes, it's ruined. I can't unsee the IR. It's always going to be there. In bright scenes, like daytime beach scenes in LOST, it dominates the screen.

I'm very frustrated right now. Why in the hell should I have to forego 4:3 viewing on a TV I paid $3500 for? I watch many 4:3 programs. I love the picture quality of plasma but I now know beyond a doubt it was a flawed technology until the end. IR was lessened but it was never completely eradicated. There's no way Samsung will help me with this and why should they? The set is out of warranty.

Unless I get to the point where money is no object for me I'm out on high end TVs. Strictly mid-range from now on. What do I do with this thing? Maybe I can sell it locally to someone who's blind in one eye.

Good luck to all of you. May your plasmas treat you well for many years to come.
How about making your home theater more like a theater?

Frame your screen with black, slidable curtains on the sides. (Or, for show, on top as well.)
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post #50 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 03:49 PM
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Whether or not it's true I can't say, but I've read, at least in this forum, that the advent of 3D contributes, or seems to contribute, to the IR issues seen in later generation plasma sets.
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post #51 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 04:53 PM
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I normally dont engage in this type of discussion, but I have have an ST60 that I bought when it came out.

After careful burn in (at least a week playing things full screen),I calibrated it (with a pretty high dynamic range) and it has been years now that I have a perfect picture with no image retention.

To add some more weight to my claim.... the TV is hooked up to an HTPC, that I use for streaming/playing AND normal, every day, computing! (so you have a background, static images, bars and what have you...)

and there is no image retention whatsoever.




like other people mentioned before, i bet its actually the centre that has faded, not the bars on the side...... but, how much 4:3 content is still out there?


Until OLED becomes more mainstream and prices go down (as plasma did once) there is no point getting an LCD.... be patient and enjoy what you have (and save money to get an even better one!) and also, given all the talks and standards regarding 4k, hdmi 2.0, hdr, dolby and whatever, you are better off waiting till the big boys sort everything out and both content and tvs are in the same page, otherwise, in a few months you'll be back here moaning about your "high end tv" not playing x or y format... or not getting along with z player.



just my 2 cents
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post #52 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 08:24 PM
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...snip...
Until OLED becomes more mainstream and prices go down (as plasma did once) there is no point getting an LCD.... be patient and enjoy what you have (and save money to get an even better one!) and also, given all the talks and standards regarding 4k, hdmi 2.0, hdr, dolby and whatever, you are better off waiting till the big boys sort everything out and both content and tvs are in the same page, otherwise, in a few months you'll be back here moaning about your "high end tv" not playing x or y format... or not getting along with z player.



just my 2 cents
Well said Mantrass.
Those of us who have been involved in this hobby for a while have seen too many example of half baked ideas either dieing on the vine or requiring hardware updates which usually means buying the next model display. Just too much hassle when some patience will yield better end results.
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post #53 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Mathesar View Post
Pioneer must of known something Samsung / Panasonic didn't?

I've been using a 5080HD since 2008 and never think about what is being displayed on screen, I've seen a few brief instances of IR but they always go away literally within a few minutes of playing normal content again (vs. static images such as a paused video game) TV is mainly used for gaming (X1 / PS4 currently) and I've always watched 4:3 content with black bars on sides when possible although 4:3 content isn't a common thing for us.
Even the Pioneers could develop uneven wear.
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post #54 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Oplasmic View Post
Unfortunately, $3,500 is becoming the norm for a mid-range TV.
WalMart has a gorgeous 55" curved Samsung UN55JU6700 4K LCD for $1,197
Now that I've seen 4K up close and in person, my 4+ year old 37" 1080p Vizio looks downright gritty. :P (It was the previous year's model when I bought it, which I did because it was less $ and had 3 HDMI inputs vs only 2 on its replacement.)
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post #55 of 282 Old 03-22-2016, 01:11 AM
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^^ The JU6700 is Samsung's cheapest/worst 4K TV, 60Hz panel, no HDR or WCG support, no local dimming, not a great TV...

I've had four plasmas, all Panasonic (G20, VT50, ST60, and now ZT60), and have never had a problem with IR on any of them, but then again my viewing habits are probably not conducive to IR. I don't watch much 4:3 content, don't play video games, don't watch sports, and use the TV sparingly. I pretty much only use it for 16:9 HDTV shows through my Apple TV and Blu-Ray movies. I just checked it and I still only have 1,925 hours on it since November 2013.

On the other hand, I gave the 50" ST60 to my mom who, by AVS standards, abused it. She'd watch a lot of mixed content from DirecTV and Netflix movies, and a fair amount of 4:3. Worst of all, she liked watching it in Vivid. She ended up giving it to my brother. Before she gave it to him, I wanted to check it out because I was sure she had ruined it. She had about 3,000 hours on the panel. I popped in an SD card with some color slides, and to my surprise, the TV showed not a single hint of unevenness, burn-in/IR, logos, etc. So to me it seemed like while later generations of PDP were more prone to IR than older ones, the susceptibility seems to vary from sample to sample for whatever reason.

In regards to not wanting to buy a "high-end" TV, I think that we often draw a false correlation between cost and longevity. We all know a high-end/high-cost TV will have a better picture than a lower end one, but I think the assumption that a more expensive TV will be more reliable does not really follow. It would be nice if it were true though. Case in point, last week, I'm dusting my ZT60 and notice that I'm starting to get the panel separation issue in the upper right hand corner of the TV (see picture). A bit of a bummer for a babied flagship TV with all this fancy talk about autoclaves, but the picture is still amazing...

Not to hijack the thread, but does anyone know if the separation issue on the ZT60 gets worse or affects the picture in any way? I am still under Geek Squad warranty but not sure if this would be considered cosmetic (not covered). And if I used the warranty and they cashed me out, I'm not so sure I'd know what to get. I think the current crop of OLEDs aren't the holy grail we'd all thought they'd be. The best LCDs have less compromise to me, so something like a Sony X940D would probably be my choice if I could make it fit. The Panasonic DX900 seems awesome but I don't know if we'll get it here (even if we did get it in the US, Panasonic doesn't seem to like selling their TVs in stores anymore).
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post #56 of 282 Old 03-22-2016, 03:54 AM
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I have a Panasonic plasma and it developed a small IR in the lower right corner while still under warranty, but before I returned it I decided to try something. I unplugged the TV from the surge protector and let it set for 24 hours, then plugged it back in and turned on the TV...the IR was gone and it has never returned after 5 years.

I love my plasma tv the picture quality is unmatched by anything that LED/LCD has to offer which is why plasma is starting to make a comeback.
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post #57 of 282 Old 03-22-2016, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dereklsj View Post
Back in late 2010, I bought a Panasonic TC-P50VT25 from BB. I'm partially disabled, so I watch more TV than most at 12+ hours a day on average, 7 days a week. I'm so pleased that I haven't experienced any of the burn in, temporary or otherwise. Maybe I got an exceptional panel? The black is as black as they come and the colors are still as vibrant as ever. The black is so good, that when I'm watching a cropped picture, the black area is so black, it looks like the TV isn't even on and transitions perfectly to black on the picture. I watch it in a darker room, with the shades partially drawn for the best picture.
Well. My pro-calibrated 500m Pioneer has better blacks than your TV...still not ''black as they come''.. should see you TV blacks next to OLED blacks... shocker
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Originally Posted by Weboh View Post
Dark images don't cause burn-in.
On my Plasma on the edge of were movie black bars suppost to be a full dark screen is darker than it should be..will not go away..pretty clear that is burn-in. Do you say it is not?
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post #58 of 282 Old 03-22-2016, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by froze View Post
I love my plasma tv the picture quality is unmatched by anything that LED/LCD has to offer which is why plasma is starting to make a comeback.
What comeback? Plasma is not making a comeback. The factories have all been dismantled. Plasma TVs will never be made again.

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post #59 of 282 Old 03-22-2016, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
... On my Plasma on the edge of were movie black bars suppost to be a full dark screen is darker than it should be..will not go away..pretty clear that is burn-in. Do you say it is not?
As noted in a previous post, the phosphors in the 4:3 viewing area are being used more and aging faster than the phosphors in the black bar area. Since phosphors grow darker as they age, that's why the 4:3 viewing area of the screen becomes darker than the black bar areas.
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post #60 of 282 Old 03-22-2016, 07:54 AM
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I have never owned a Plasma set but I agree with the original poster of this topic. Almost 2 years ago I bought the Sony KDL-55W900A which next to their X900A 4K set it was their top of the line 1080p set and I dropped almost 3 grand on it. Knock on wood it has been running strong with no issues whats so ever but it will be the last top of the line set I buy. I will either go OLED when prices drop or go the Projector route but there is no way in hell I will ever drop that kind of money on a tv ever again. Has it been money well spent for me? So far yes. I have gotton my money's worth out of my tv and I hope it continues to do its thing for a few more years but until it dies and can longer be fixed it will be my last. Just my two cents.
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