From Kuro to what? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 64 Old 03-03-2019, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post
The bottom line is Plasma was by and large exceptionally good technology, especially at its peak of development just before it was discontinued or abandoned by the industry. It's really a shame it wasn't up-scalable to UHD and HDR, as if it were, it would trounce LG's WRGB OLED in just about every way.
That's easy to theorize, harder to prove. I'm also going to call your theories about color reproduction bunk since they're not based on anything but hunches and subjective evaluations. The matter of motion is the greatest phenomenon contributing to the "cartoon" effect, and that won't be fully resolved (and even bettered) until 240 Hz panels are introduced.
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post #32 of 64 Old 03-04-2019, 02:06 AM
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Samsungs 2013 (!) Oled tv is still in some ways better then the LG Oled design..


For example the Samsung Oled had a higher full screen light output then even the most recent lg oleds.. Over 200nits.. Because they used a super large blue subpixel and their true RGB OLED had more efficiency because they did not use a color filter..


And they did not use sample and hold motion like the LG Oleds.. but Plasma like sub field drive and superior motion..


Now in 2019 Samsung is working on a blue oled sub Pixel structure where 2 sub pixels have a red and a green quantum dot that has super high efficiency vs. the color filter lg uses.. A true RGB Oled/Qled Panel that will be a fresh competition to the LG Oled panels..


https://www.pc-magazin.de/bildergale...85-395340.html


https://www.pc-magazin.de/bildergale...85-395339.html


Oled has much potential, but it for sure needs competition..

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post #33 of 64 Old 03-05-2019, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Bruce2019 View Post
Samsungs 2013 (!) Oled tv is still in some ways better then the LG Oled design..


For example the Samsung Oled had a higher full screen light output then even the most recent lg oleds.. Over 200nits.. Because they used a super large blue subpixel and their true RGB OLED had more efficiency because they did not use a color filter..


And they did not use sample and hold motion like the LG Oleds.. but Plasma like sub field drive and superior motion..


Now in 2019 Samsung is working on a blue oled sub Pixel structure where 2 sub pixels have a red and a green quantum dot that has super high efficiency vs. the color filter lg uses.. A true RGB Oled/Qled Panel that will be a fresh competition to the LG Oled panels..


https://www.pc-magazin.de/bildergale...85-395340.html


https://www.pc-magazin.de/bildergale...85-395339.html


Oled has much potential, but it for sure needs competition..

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/167-p...l#post57655972


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post #34 of 64 Old 03-06-2019, 03:11 AM
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Exactly!

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post #35 of 64 Old 03-06-2019, 03:34 AM
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I have a 55” VT and recently bought a used JVC x550r projector. With my proper dark room it’s like watching a 140” plasma for blacks, and I’m super picky. The 4k upscaling of 1080p content, more than makes up for any slight loss compared to plasma. When I go back to the plasma in my bedroom, I notice right away how less sharp it is. The deep blacks seem the same.
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post #36 of 64 Old 03-06-2019, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by CroweProductions View Post
I have a 55” VT and recently bought a used JVC x550r projector. With my proper dark room it’s like watching a 140” plasma for blacks, and I’m super picky. The 4k upscaling of 1080p content, more than makes up for any slight loss compared to plasma. When I go back to the plasma in my bedroom, I notice right away how less sharp it is. The deep blacks seem the same.

Yeah but which VT do you have? The VT60 and VT30 and VT20 models are pretty sharp, but the VT50 model is very soft compared to the other generations.





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post #37 of 64 Old 03-06-2019, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post
Yeah but which VT do you have? The VT60 and VT30 and VT20 models are pretty sharp, but the VT50 model is very soft compared to the other generations.

___
It's the last production model, the VT60, which is very sharp for a 1080p panel, but doesn't hold a candle to JVC 4K eshift on upscaled 1080p content. I'm just answering "from Kuro to what?", a 4K JVC projector provides a very film like image if "upgraders" are not satisfied with the current crop of OLED's. I paid the same for both. The VT was $2K new CAD (4 yrs ago?), and the recent JVC 550r was $2k used.
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post #38 of 64 Old 03-06-2019, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by CroweProductions View Post
It's the last production model, the VT60, which is very sharp for a 1080p panel, but doesn't hold a candle to JVC 4K eshift on upscaled 1080p content. I'm just answering "from Kuro to what?", a 4K JVC projector provides a very film like image if "upgraders" are not satisfied with the current crop of OLED's. I paid the same for both. The VT was $2K new CAD (4 yrs ago?), and the recent JVC 550r was $2k used.


The JVC x550r projector is an excellent performer, I've read the reviews, but I have a hard time believing that a 1080p, 4k upscaled, 140'' projection looks sharper then a direct view 65'' VT60. Now brighter, that's a different story. The JVC has a good 13 FTL advantage in that department.


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post #39 of 64 Old 03-06-2019, 03:47 PM
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There are lots of techs in development that may or may not come to fruition in the consumer market. Frankly, I could be dead tomorrow so I'm trying to fully enjoy what's available now. The matter of uniformity is the single biggest detriment to that enjoyment as I see it currently. I'm not worried about color reproduction as is, and the motion problem (for those who can't tolerate it, and the number is vanishingly small) is slowly working itself out.
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post #40 of 64 Old 03-07-2019, 03:11 AM
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https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.ph...toAaZLEsK0IDX4


There is a smaller 48inch Oled incoming.. Now it gets interesting for me, because 55 is too large for my place.


Finally a smaller screen size..
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post #41 of 64 Old 03-08-2019, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by markg35 View Post
I would think Plasma's would gradually lose brightness and or color or one or more of the various boards fail(you can sometimes find replacement boards).

From what I've heard,seen and read OLED's are the closest to thePlasma picture.LG and Sony are the brands available in the states.LG makes the panels for both.

I have two Plasmas,a 50" Kuro in the den and a 60" Panasonic in the living room.I want to upgrade the living room set but I'm not sure a 65" is a big enough change.I'm not ready to shell out for a 75"-77" OLED.

I'm still open to a 75"-85" LCD.

Good Luck with your quest!
Go to display wars for a screen size comparison.
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post #42 of 64 Old 03-08-2019, 08:08 AM
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If you do make the jump to OLED someday I highly recommend really sitting with it and seeing if you like the changes/differences. My old Panasonic plasma died and I waited and saved up for an LG B8 thinking it would be my dream TV and ended up returning it after a few days because I couldn't get past the motion issues. If I'm gonna spend that much on a TV, that was a fatal flaw for me personally. I've since bought a used ZT60 plasma and am gonna enjoy that for a while instead.

The base picture of the OLED was unbeatable but I think that technology still has a ways to go as far as motion, etc. Once that happens they'll be close to perfect.
Thanks for the heads up on the motion issues. I was considering upgrading from my 64" F8500 to oled but maybe I should wait a little while longer.
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post #43 of 64 Old 03-08-2019, 08:55 AM
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I have an old 2009 S10.. 6000 run hours for 80 Euros.. Mint condition..


Calibrated and gamma tweaked it is just ridiculous how good this Plasmas is..


A calibrated and tweaked Kuro is in a complete different league..


4k and HDR yes for sure new tvs have it.. But natural CRT like movie heaven picture with 24p motion and no Banding and vignetting... Plasma still strong in 2019


So for me those Kuros are keepers.. Before replacing them, I would first rather invest in a calibration.. Stock these Plasmas are far from their full potential..
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post #44 of 64 Old 03-08-2019, 09:45 AM
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Nothing and I mean nothing beats the Kuros, not even the LG OLEDS. I just purchased LG OLED C8 65", rewatched the Superbowl and a few movies side by side with the trusty Pioneer and its not even a question who the winner is with sports. Even with movies I find the Plasma more soothing to watch. Motion and skin tones are so natural. Years ago I purchased a Panny VT60 made the mistake of hanging it next to the Kuro, just wasn't as clear and sharp as the Pioneer so I took it back. Don't get me wrong the OLED is a darn good TV (and I'm keeping it) but the motion is just not the same performance as a Plasma. OLED's black levels are amazing along with the color.

I blame Panny for destroying Plasma. Panasonic purchased all the patents from the Pioneer Kuro, instead of further developing the Kuro technology, making it cheaper, lighter, thinner, Panasonic hoarded and locked away the technology from competitors. Which is always a stupid business move. Imagine if LG got there hands on the Kuro patents, where Plasma would be. Maybe when Panasonic TV division is finally gets killed off (which is close) another manufacture will buy the Kuro patents and bring Plasma back.
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post #45 of 64 Old 03-08-2019, 11:07 AM
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Nothing and I mean nothing beats the Kuros, not even the LG OLEDS. I just purchased LG OLED C8 65", rewatched the Superbowl and a few movies side by side with the trusty Pioneer and its not even a question who the winner is with sports. Even with movies I find the Plasma more soothing to watch. Motion and skin tones are so natural. Years ago I purchased a Panny VT60 made the mistake of hanging it next to the Kuro, just wasn't as clear and sharp as the Pioneer so I took it back. Don't get me wrong the OLED is a darn good TV (and I'm keeping it) but the motion is just not the same performance as a Plasma. OLED's black levels are amazing along with the color.

I blame Panny for destroying Plasma. Panasonic purchased all the patents from the Pioneer Kuro, instead of further developing the Kuro technology, making it cheaper, lighter, thinner, Panasonic hoarded and locked away the technology from competitors. Which is always a stupid business move. Imagine if LG got there hands on the Kuro patents, where Plasma would be. Maybe when Panasonic TV division is finally gets killed off (which is close) another manufacture will buy the Kuro patents and bring Plasma back.

Very interesting interview of Mr Plasma (Larry Weber) about plasma.. The big problem with plasma tvs was that it has never been profitable.. And Panasonic in fact invested the most in plasma tech.. but in the end lcd just took over..


Just look at the graph, how small the Plasma TV market share actually was..


http://www.hdtvexpert.com/buy-a-plas...by-ken-werner/


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post #46 of 64 Old 03-08-2019, 11:56 AM
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I fully appreciate and agree with what you wrote. I currently have TWO Panasonic plasmas (both 50" VT30 and GT50). Love both of them (especially the GT50 because it has 3-D and is newer/brighter). I am considering phasing out the 10 year-old VT30 for a 65", and I KNOW that it has to be an OLED. I also have seen and read about inferior motion and uniformity going to OLED from plasma, so I have been on this slow train...holding off making the move from 50" to a new 65". My point to you is that we consistently read and hear that LG just does NOT live up to SONY in terms of motion as well as UPCONVERSION of 2K 720p/1080i broadcast material. I am not a "Sony fan boy" by any means ( I have owned two Sony TVs and a couple of Pannys, etc., so I have no "favorite "must go-to's"). I just wonder for yourself as well as for me, being motion sensitive (spoiled by plasma ? ), if going to the Sony OLED products might be the BEST ALTERNATIVE. We watch a fair amount of broadcast 720p/1080i and I hate the idea of going backwards on picture quality after spending a lot of money. I know you hear what I am saying. I also KNOW what I am seeing my Panny plasmas going with that material...and it looks very, very good ! (I get it...I GET it...I am investing in the future, and undoubtedly, 1080p looks extremely good on the OLED, and 4-K...well, yea, no discussion (especially. HDR of any 'flavor')

I do not see the transition as easy as some espouse.
(Sorry just seeing this now, hadn't logged in for a few weeks). I hear ya. From what I gather the Sony has better motion but it is unquestionably out of my price range at the moment. If and when I make the jump to OLED it looks like I will definitely be steering toward the Sonys ... but I did recently buy a used Panasonic 65-inch ZT60 for $700 and am as happy as I could possibly be for now. As someone who stayed away from TV talk for years (I was happy with my old plasma so no need, ha), just the idea of having this dream ZT60 at this price remains mind-blowing to me.
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post #47 of 64 Old 03-08-2019, 12:00 PM
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Thanks for the heads up on the motion issues. I was considering upgrading from my 64" F8500 to oled but maybe I should wait a little while longer.
Sure, any time. I can only speak for myself, so definitely check them out at a store with all the soap opera motion settings off if you get the chance, but I was stunned at the difference. And I was unable to check out the Sony OLEDs with the settings off, so I can't speak to them. But I recently got a 65-inch ZT60 and I'm in heaven. I'm assuming I'd feel the same way about the F8500.
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post #48 of 64 Old 03-08-2019, 09:59 PM
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Motion on the 2019 LG models will be better than 2018 since they operate natively at 120 Hz (and will have adjustable black frame insertion settings). It will likely take 240 Hz refresh rates before plasma motion is matched (which itself is not perfect in every aspect either). I'm not as picky about this facet of performance. The only thing I truly miss about my Kuro/ZT60 is the uniformity.
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post #49 of 64 Old 03-09-2019, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by mustangjim1 View Post
I blame Panny for destroying Plasma. Panasonic purchased all the patents from the Pioneer Kuro, instead of further developing the Kuro technology, making it cheaper, lighter, thinner, Panasonic hoarded and locked away the technology from competitors. Which is always a stupid business move. Imagine if LG got there hands on the Kuro patents, where Plasma would be. Maybe when Panasonic TV division is finally gets killed off (which is close) another manufacture will buy the Kuro patents and bring Plasma back.
I blame the greed of TV manufacturers for destroying plasma. They tried to stampede everyone into replacing their perfectly good panels by rolling out 3-D. When that went splat, they shifted to trying to get everyone to replace their panels by rolling out 4K (which is of little value to 95%+ people, at the typical panel size and viewing distances).


My understanding is that plasma would not economically scale up to 4K.


I moved from a 64F8500 to an LG 65 C8 last year, and I still regret it. Motion is a real issue. The naturalness of the picture is less of an issue, but is still noticeable. 4K material is not that common, and HDR / DV is even more scarce. Upscaling from 780p / 1080i has noticeable issues.


It's a shame that display technology has regressed o much, by virtue of marketeers pushing features that don't offer much cost / benefit ratio.
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post #50 of 64 Old 03-09-2019, 08:19 AM
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Maybe when Panasonic TV division is finally gets killed off (which is close) another manufacture will buy the Kuro patents and bring Plasma back.

Haha, we can only wish. No one (I can conceive at least) would bring it back since it's not upscalable to UHD and HDR. At least not without significant additional R&D.
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post #51 of 64 Old 03-10-2019, 08:15 AM
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BTW, I would have sought out and bought a used one of the last generation Kuros had there been one made without an anti-glare coating. I can't stand anti-glare coatings (it's like looking through a veil), so I'm stuck with my Panasonic 50" S60 and my backup Samsung 51" F5300B (still new in the box in my closet) to hold me over until some native RGB pixel technology becomes available. I may be waiting a long time though (or it may never come).
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post #52 of 64 Old 03-10-2019, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangjim1 View Post
I blame Panny for destroying Plasma. Panasonic purchased all the patents from the Pioneer Kuro, instead of further developing the Kuro technology, making it cheaper, lighter, thinner, Panasonic hoarded and locked away the technology from competitors. Which is always a stupid business move. Imagine if LG got there hands on the Kuro patents, where Plasma would be. Maybe when Panasonic TV division is finally gets killed off (which is close) another manufacture will buy the Kuro patents and bring Plasma back.
I blame the greed of TV manufacturers for destroying plasma. They tried to stampede everyone into replacing their perfectly good panels by rolling out 3-D. When that went splat, they shifted to trying to get everyone to replace their panels by rolling out 4K (which is of little value to 95%+ people, at the typical panel size and viewing distances).


My understanding is that plasma would not economically scale up to 4K.


I moved from a 64F8500 to an LG 65 C8 last year, and I still regret it. Motion is a real issue. The naturalness of the picture is less of an issue, but is still noticeable. 4K material is not that common, and HDR / DV is even more scarce. Upscaling from 780p / 1080i has noticeable issues.


It's a shame that display technology has regressed o much, by virtue of marketeers pushing features that don't offer much cost / benefit ratio.
You’ve got to go Sony these days for the best motion handling and upscaling. Not quite plasma good but much closer than the competition. If you have the money have a look at Sony’s OLEDs. They’re not cheap but neither was the Kuro in its day.
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post #53 of 64 Old 03-10-2019, 09:34 PM
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Hate to air my disagreement again, but I'm gonna' call "much closer" a bit of an exaggeration.
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post #54 of 64 Old 03-11-2019, 04:57 AM
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OLED is the only choice.

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post #55 of 64 Old 03-11-2019, 08:10 PM
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Found this on youtube.. At least to me, the oled looks gorgeous and here you can see the advantage of more then twice the full screen light output of the oled..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp9KHQC0JcY&t=621s
Yeah, OLED is brighter alright, but the Plasma smoked the OLED in everything else. Look at the skin tones compare to the OLED where they look washed out. Look at the reds at Lighting McQueens car, just stunning. That White filter on the OLED just kills the color quality.

Don't get me wrong, OLED is still freaking stunning and I want one.
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post #56 of 64 Old 03-12-2019, 07:15 PM
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I’ve been a happy owner of Panasonic G10 plasma for almost 10 years. I was thinking about upgrading to OLED, but I can’t go back to inferior motion processing. Even with plasma I wasn’t 100% happy with motion compared to CRT motion. Do you think microLED tech will gives us the perfect motion?
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post #57 of 64 Old 03-12-2019, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by vtms View Post
I’ve been a happy owner of Panasonic G10 plasma for almost 10 years. I was thinking about upgrading to OLED, but I can’t go back to inferior motion processing. Even with plasma I wasn’t 100% happy with motion compared to CRT motion. Do you think microLED tech will gives us the perfect motion?
Perfect motion? Since the tech is still in it's infancy, it's hard to say, but it has the potential to be better then anything we have seen so far.https://www.cnet.com/news/microled-o...sung-the-wall/



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post #58 of 64 Old 03-12-2019, 08:29 PM
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I blame the greed of TV manufacturers for destroying plasma. They tried to stampede everyone into replacing their perfectly good panels by rolling out 3-D. When that went splat, they shifted to trying to get everyone to replace their panels by rolling out 4K (which is of little value to 95%+ people, at the typical panel size and viewing distances).


My understanding is that plasma would not economically scale up to 4K.


I moved from a 64F8500 to an LG 65 C8 last year, and I still regret it. Motion is a real issue. The naturalness of the picture is less of an issue, but is still noticeable. 4K material is not that common, and HDR / DV is even more scarce. Upscaling from 780p / 1080i has noticeable issues.


It's a shame that display technology has regressed o much, by virtue of marketeers pushing features that don't offer much cost / benefit ratio.
As a consumer you have the choice of buying what ever you want. If there is anybody to blame it is the consumer. If Panasonic had sold more Plasma's and was still making them today they would have hit zero black just like OLED, done 4k HDR and would be the superior technology. Research and development was on it's way. The only thing OLED would have on Plasma in 2019 is the Plasma would put out more heat and Energy. Imagine the 2019 Panasonic ZT??(whatever they would call it). Zero black in a Plasma was possible.
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post #59 of 64 Old 03-12-2019, 08:45 PM
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Exclamation "Alex, I'll try 'VT10' for $100."

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Originally Posted by Bruce2019 View Post
The VT20 was the first 3d Plasma from Panasonic 2010..


Now we are really interested what non 3d VT plasma model you have..
LOL...okay, I bought it in about 2008 or 2009. "Alex, I'll take 'VT10' for $100."

One thing that I am CERTAIN of is that it DOES NOT have 3-D.
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post #60 of 64 Old 03-12-2019, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtms View Post
I’ve been a happy owner of Panasonic G10 plasma for almost 10 years. I was thinking about upgrading to OLED, but I can’t go back to inferior motion processing. Even with plasma I wasn’t 100% happy with motion compared to CRT motion. Do you think microLED tech will gives us the perfect motion?
Please do not accuse me of being a SONY "fanboy." I do not even own a Sony...but I have OFTEN been told that motion and processing of almost all the upper-tier Sony have superior motion, and processing, over LG. Have you explored their version of dealing with the aforementioned? My two Panasonic plasmas handle 1080i/720p, as well as 1080p really well, BUT even they are far from perfect in that motion area. I occasionally see faux pas (whether it is called judder, or stutter, etc.) It is rare enough not to be an issue for me, but I am concerned about an OLED transition for this reason of motion, but more, up-conversion.
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