Have OLED. Want plasma. - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 56 Old 03-08-2019, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Have OLED. Want plasma.

I have a 55" LG 55EC9300 OLED in the living room and it's great. I decided to put a TV in the bedroom and I'm considering hunting down an old 65" Panasonic ST60/VT60/ZT60 plasma. I had a plasma long before OLEDs came out and the image quality was mesmerizing in a different way than OLED is. It would be fun to have both. Anyone else feel this way?

I know they're around 100 pounds which is pretty nuts and I'm also concerned about finding one that is still performing optimally. Any advice before I decide to embark on this quest? Is it worth it?
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post #2 of 56 Old 03-08-2019, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avsforumrocks View Post
I have a 55" LG 55EC9300 OLED in the living room and it's great. I decided to put a TV in the bedroom and I'm considering hunting down an old 65" Panasonic ST60/VT60/ZT60 plasma. I had a plasma long before OLEDs came out and the image quality was mesmerizing in a different way than OLED is. It would be fun to have both. Anyone else feel this way?

I know they're around 100 pounds which is pretty nuts and I'm also concerned about finding one that is still performing optimally. Any advice before I decide to embark on this quest? Is it worth it?

The 60s series Plasmas are not that heavy.. they are actually quite slim and modern looking.. And it is a great time to buy a used Plasma, not crazy at all.. You are one of few buyers and have great chances to get a great deal..


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post #3 of 56 Old 03-08-2019, 02:29 PM
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Where are some of the best places to find good, used plasma TVs?
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post #4 of 56 Old 03-08-2019, 02:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Awesome! Do I have the weight correct at ~100 pounds? Am I going after the very best plasma with the ST60/VT60? I've read that the Pioneer Kuro was good too but I think it's older although I could be wrong there.

What should I be looking to pay for a nice 65" ST60/VT60?
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post #5 of 56 Old 03-08-2019, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avsforumrocks View Post
Awesome! Do I have the weight correct at ~100 pounds? Am I going after the very best plasma with the ST60/VT60? I've read that the Pioneer Kuro was good too but I think it's older although I could be wrong there.

What should I be looking to pay for a nice 65" ST60/VT60?

It seems as I was confused with pounds because we have kg.. They should be around 80 pounds.. So ok, still heavy..


Pricing is a very difficult question.. Check your local second hand options..


around 500$ ?


A Pioneer Kuro should be (much) cheaper..

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post #6 of 56 Old 03-08-2019, 04:44 PM
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For the 65VT60 the weight is: Mass 111.4 lb. (50.5 kg) (Including pedestal) 92.6 lb. (42.0 kg) (TV Set only)
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post #7 of 56 Old 03-08-2019, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avsforumrocks View Post
I have a 55" LG 55EC9300 OLED in the living room and it's great. I decided to put a TV in the bedroom and I'm considering hunting down an old 65" Panasonic ST60/VT60/ZT60 plasma. I had a plasma long before OLEDs came out and the image quality was mesmerizing in a different way than OLED is. It would be fun to have both. Anyone else feel this way?

I know they're around 100 pounds which is pretty nuts and I'm also concerned about finding one that is still performing optimally. Any advice before I decide to embark on this quest? Is it worth it?
Do it!
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post #8 of 56 Old 03-08-2019, 08:36 PM
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I've written about it elsewhere on here but I just bought a used plasma last month (Panasonic 65inch ZT60) and it's the best decision I've made in forever. I originally bought a new LG B8 OLED for $2000 but the motion issues were driving me nuts. Instead I checked out the used market and found the panasonic on craigslist for $750. Got knocked down to $700 when they couldn't find the stand. All these years later I'm amazed I have a top-end plasma for that price!

I can't recommend it enough -- but transport/shipping is the hardest part. I debated driving like 8 hours to get a pioneer kuro for dirt cheap but it was only a 50 inch TV and I wanted to go bigger. I got really lucky in that I found one an hour away and they were willing to deliver it to me. I wouldn't be able to fit anything bigger than 50-inch TV in my car. I'd say check ebay, craigslist, and even facebook listings.
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post #9 of 56 Old 03-11-2019, 07:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Has anyone been able to define specifically what plasma does better than OLED? Maybe motion?

Is there any way to get the number of hours on one of these Panasonics?
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post #10 of 56 Old 03-11-2019, 12:16 PM
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Forget the Panasonic. I have a Kuro, and bought a VT60, had it professionally calibrated and hung them side by side. Kuro blows the Panasonic away. The Panasonic is dimmer and sort of blurry compared to the Pioneer. No matter what mode, settings I changed, never equaled the quality of my old Kuro. Ended up taking it back to the store. Although I didn't own a Samsung F8500, I remember demoing it in Best Buy next to a ZT60 next to it. F8500 was way brighter, clearer, and the colors far better then the Panasonic.
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post #11 of 56 Old 03-11-2019, 02:21 PM
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Cool

[QUOTE=avsforumrocks;57727404]Has anyone been able to define specifically what plasma does better than OLED? Maybe motion?

Motion, motion, motion. Plasma's have no latency, or judder so motion is so smooth and you do not see ghosting, judder or shadows of a moving image. Each pixel on a Plasma is made up of 3 sub pixels (Red Green Blue). The Pioneer sub pixels had a refresh rate of 600 hz vs 120 hz on an OLED. It is why motion is so good on a Plasma. Also there is something about Plasma is just more soothing to watch, again maybe it is the motion and the anti Soap Opera effect. OLED's are close to Plasma in the motion and Soap Opera effect but it is not quite there, maybe 85%. Basing on a LG 65" C8.

To answer Shadowspawn: Panasonic made a 103" 4K TV for a whopping $72,000 so it could be done. You are right about the greed or just laziness of manufactures who just want to market junk like 3D not do R&D.

OLED like Plasma was thought not to be economically viable in bigger screen sizes. OLED was abandon by Sony, Panasonic and Samsung. Sony produced an 11" Oled in 2007 for $2,700, samsung made small OLED screens and still makes small OLED screens way before LG even thought about OLED, but both companies gave up on developing OLED TV's. LG on the other-hand knew OLED had a future and from 2013-2018 lost millions per year on OLED TV's, and had an estimated factory failure rate of 1 in 6 at the beginning. Now LG OLED is profitable, and they built a new $10.8 Billion dollar factory to produce OLED displays. LG sells there OLED display panel to be rebranded under Sony,Philips, Loewe. B&O TCL, Haier, and even rumors that Panasonic will re-enter the US TV market with an OLED TV which of course is just LG OLED panel.
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post #12 of 56 Old 03-11-2019, 02:24 PM
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangjim1 View Post
Forget the Panasonic. I have a Kuro, and bought a VT60, had it professionally calibrated and hung them side by side. Kuro blows the Panasonic away. The Panasonic is dimmer and sort of blurry compared to the Pioneer. No matter what mode, settings I changed, never equaled the quality of my old Kuro. Ended up taking it back to the store. Although I didn't own a Samsung F8500, I remember demoing it in Best Buy next to a ZT60 next to it. F8500 was way brighter, clearer, and the colors far better then the Panasonic.
Who calibrated your displays? The Kuru and Samsung have an edge on the VT and ZT 60's especially when it comes to brightness, but I have yet to see a review where a Kuro blew a VT60 away. Obviously when you compare great displays it becomes a very subjective comparison:


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/167-p...kuro-vt60.html


From CNET:
Quote:
If you want ultradeep blacks on your TV screen -- and that's what we all should want, since they're the chief ingredient in amazing home theater picture quality -- you'll find them in the Panasonic VT60. This TV beats the Samsung F8500 in terms of black level, although it can't match that panel for image brightness. But in a dim to dark room, the kind in which you'll want to watch any good TV to best appreciate its picture quality, the VT60 wins -- it gets plenty bright enough for most rooms, and that much darker. Colors are a little more vivid on the Panasonic, and flesh tones are healthier-looking than the Samsung can muster.
Of the six TVs in our comparison lineup, it was really a two-horse race between the Panasonic VT60 and the Pioneer Elite Kuro 111FD. While the Pioneer did some things better, the Panasonic had a more impressive picture overall due to its slightly deeper black levels and better shadow detail. So in a way, despite the fact that it's the ZT60 Panasonic is touting as a Kuro-killer, the less expensive VT60 is actually the first TV we've tested to outperform our in-house Kuro.



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post #13 of 56 Old 03-11-2019, 02:40 PM
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[quote=mustangjim1;57729682]
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Originally Posted by avsforumrocks View Post
Has anyone been able to define specifically what plasma does better than OLED? Maybe motion?

Motion, motion, motion. Plasma's have no latency, or judder so motion is so smooth and you do not see ghosting, judder or shadows of a moving image. Each pixel on a Plasma is made up of 3 sub pixels (Red Green Blue). The Pioneer sub pixels had a refresh rate of 600 hz vs 120 hz on an OLED. It is why motion is so good on a Plasma.
A plasma's 600hz subfield drive has little to do with an LCD or OLED's actual frame rate. It refers to the actual sub pixel pulse rate which on a pdp occurs 10X per second at the 60hz frame rate.



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Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
Who calibrated your displays? The Kuru and Samsung have an edge on the VT and ZT 60's especially when it comes to brightness, but I have yet to see a review where a Kuro blew a VT60 away. Obviously when you compare great displays it becomes a very subjective comparison:


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/167-p...kuro-vt60.html


From CNET:
https://youtu.be/FmXZ3OH5cdo



Ian
I have both of those. KRP-600M and the VT60 (not ZT60 but close enough). My side by side was much closer. KRP-600M voltage tweaked and calibrated vs the calibrated VT60. Images were virtually identical. There's alot of light in that room. The ZT60's anti reflective screen is doing a better job or something. The KRP-600M is much better than that video shows.
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post #15 of 56 Old 03-12-2019, 01:49 AM
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Oh man, feelings of 2013 deja vu with the latest flurry of posts. ZT60's relative dimness does it no favors when positioned next to an F8500 light cannon. The ZT60 was a cinematic masterpiece, though, that came the closest to dethroning the Kuro.
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post #16 of 56 Old 03-12-2019, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Test Ickles View Post
I have both of those. KRP-600M and the VT60 (not ZT60 but close enough). My side by side was much closer. KRP-600M voltage tweaked and calibrated vs the calibrated VT60. Images were virtually identical. There's alot of light in that room. The ZT60's anti reflective screen is doing a better job or something. The KRP-600M is much better than that video shows.
I agree the lightning wasn't really conducive to a plasma's performance in controlled lighted home theater applications. The ZT's advanced AR filter probably had more impact on PQ under those conditions.


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post #17 of 56 Old 03-13-2019, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Any opinions on the Kuro PDP-6010FD?
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post #18 of 56 Old 03-13-2019, 02:47 PM
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It is all about calibration AND the preference of the individuell advantage of a tv...


The Kuros will always shine with high average brightness level content.. and it will be forever the highest contrast plasma on earth.. (and the most accurate one)


The limitations of the 60s series plasmas is not brightness, but full screen brightness.. A VT can produce 50nits full screen and with 16:9 material you will see a difference vs a Kuro.. Calibrated to lets say 90 nits peak brightness the Panasonic uses all sorts of "tricks" with gamma, white balance to make the picture appear brighter and also to stay in a limiting power draw number. And this is one thing that makes the 60s series a) a very hard to calibrate and b) not as rock steady and reference as a Kuro.. They squeezed everything out of the panel also with consideration of power draw, heat a thin nice design and a moderate retail price..


The Kuro has no such limitations and therefor the Kuro is per design the superior "racing car"...


But.. if you calibrate and tweak both panels I am pretty sure that the gap is small and if you place both panels in a room with ambient light many might prefer the VT60 because of its better Black filter, and in a complete dark room or dark enough room the Kuro will shine because of brutal contrast ratio.. (and it should be the most linear and color correct Plasma)


Attached some new comparison shots between a 2009 S1 and a 2013 S60... Calibration is key for all of these plasma panels.. So if their is a HUGE difference between both tvs, I can assure you they are not equally adjusted..


Calibrated the difference of S10 vs ST60 is very very small.. BUT with a massive difference in black level: 0,13 nits vs. around 0,02 nits.. So what I am saying is that you need specific content to see the advantages of one panel vs the other..


Personally I would have loved to see a 60s panel in a thicker tv model, with better air flow and lets say 100 watts more power draw, just less limitations, no built in tuner.. Some kind of a KRP Panasonic model..


But hey.. it will never happen
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[quote=mailiang;57729770]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangjim1 View Post

A plasma's 600hz subfield drive has little to do with an LCD or OLED's actual frame rate. It refers to the actual sub pixel pulse rate which on a pdp occurs 10X per second at the 60hz frame rate.



Ian
That 600hz was from the Panasonic Marketing department. Regardless how Plasma does motion, it is flat out better then OLED.

BTW when switching from Plasma to OLED you might think of all the electricity you will save, think again. Here is the back of my Kuro and new LG 65" C8. Not even a light bulb. Was a little shocked myself the OLED was so high.
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post #20 of 56 Old 03-13-2019, 03:41 PM
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[quote=mustangjim1;57740916]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

That 600hz was from the Panasonic Marketing department. Regardless how Plasma does motion, it is flat out better then OLED.

BTW when switching from Plasma to OLED you might think of all the electricity you will save, think again. Here is the back of my Kuro and new LG 65" C8. Not even a light bulb. Was a little shocked myself the OLED was so high.

Holy cow..

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post #21 of 56 Old 03-13-2019, 03:45 PM
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Exclamation

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Originally Posted by Bruce2019 View Post
Originally Posted by mailiang

That 600hz was from the Panasonic Marketing department. Regardless how Plasma does motion, it is flat out better then OLED.
BTW when switching from Plasma to OLED you might think of all the electricity you will save, think again. Here is the back of my Kuro and new LG 65" C8. Not even a light bulb. Was a little shocked myself the OLED was so high.

That's not from my post. You wouldn't want to be sued for libel now, would you?



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post #22 of 56 Old 03-13-2019, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangjim1 View Post

That 600hz was from the Panasonic Marketing department. Regardless how Plasma does motion, it is flat out better then OLED.
Never said it wasn't. 600hz subfield drive was used as a marketing ploy and should never be confused with the actual frame rate.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangjim1 View Post
BTW when switching from Plasma to OLED you might think of all the electricity you will save, think again. Here is the back of my Kuro and new LG 65" C8. Not even a light bulb. Was a little shocked myself the OLED was so high.
Is that actual power consumption though, or some kind of theoretical maximum rating?

For example my PC says 600 watts on the sticker, but actual use is about 150 watts.
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post #24 of 56 Old 03-13-2019, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce2019 View Post
It is all about calibration AND the preference of the individuell advantage of a tv...


The Kuros will always shine with high average brightness level content.. and it will be forever the highest contrast plasma on earth.. (and the most accurate one)


The limitations of the 60s series plasmas is not brightness, but full screen brightness.. A VT can produce 50nits full screen and with 16:9 material you will see a difference vs a Kuro.. Calibrated to lets say 90 nits peak brightness the Panasonic uses all sorts of "tricks" with gamma, white balance to make the picture appear brighter and also to stay in a limiting power draw number. And this is one thing that makes the 60s series a) a very hard to calibrate and b) not as rock steady and reference as a Kuro.. They squeezed everything out of the panel also with consideration of power draw, heat a thin nice design and a moderate retail price..


The Kuro has no such limitations and therefor the Kuro is per design the superior "racing car"...


But.. if you calibrate and tweak both panels I am pretty sure that the gap is small and if you place both panels in a room with ambient light many might prefer the VT60 because of its better Black filter, and in a complete dark room or dark enough room the Kuro will shine because of brutal contrast ratio.. (and it should be the most linear and color correct Plasma)


Attached some new comparison shots between a 2009 S1 and a 2013 S60... Calibration is key for all of these plasma panels.. So if their is a HUGE difference between both tvs, I can assure you they are not equally adjusted..


Calibrated the difference of S10 vs ST60 is very very small.. BUT with a massive difference in black level: 0,13 nits vs. around 0,02 nits.. So what I am saying is that you need specific content to see the advantages of one panel vs the other..


Personally I would have loved to see a 60s panel in a thicker tv model, with better air flow and lets say 100 watts more power draw, just less limitations, no built in tuner.. Some kind of a KRP Panasonic model..


But hey.. it will never happen

Is the S10 a Kuro?
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post #25 of 56 Old 03-13-2019, 04:09 PM
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No!
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post #26 of 56 Old 03-13-2019, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Actionable Mango View Post
Is that actual power consumption though, or some kind of theoretical maximum rating?

For example my PC says 600 watts on the sticker, but actual use is about 150 watts.


The power consumption rating on the back of the TV is the maximum amount of watts that an appliance can draw. A PDP has the ability to draw much more power then it actually needs when compared to an LCD, but under normal operating conditions it is not that extreme.



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post #27 of 56 Old 03-14-2019, 09:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Do the new 4K OLED TVs have motion like a plasma? I didn't see a problem with my 55" 1080p LG OLED but since I got a Kuro the OLED looks jerky with obvious frames during motion. Do the new OLEDs fix that?
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Do the new 4K OLED TVs have motion like a plasma? I didn't see a problem with my 55" 1080p LG OLED but since I got a Kuro the OLED looks jerky with obvious frames during motion. Do the new OLEDs fix that?
Some OLEDS have shown to reduce motion blur, but they haven't been able to eliminate it. https://www.blurbusters.com/faq/oled-motion-blur/


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post #29 of 56 Old 03-14-2019, 12:52 PM
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I have a ST30, ST60, and panasonic OLED.

Power draw during actual use as judged by the room heating effect is NO COMPARISON. Both my plasmas pump out the heat and made the room hot. When replaced with the OLED the room is kinda on cool side.

Motion is maybe a bit more subjective. The ST30 has the best motion of the 3, the ST60 has noticeable phosphor trails, and the OLED has motion blur. Between the ST60 and the OLED pick your poison, blur or phosphor trails. The OLED has BFI that fixes the blur, no downside is SDR content, but in HDR content it limits overall brightness too much. I prefer the OLED, but I am not giving up the plasma's, they make for amazing second TV's. Specifically on 1080p content in a dim room the ST60 is reasonably close to the OLED. If the room gets too bright, too dark, (or 4k content, or HDR, or...) and the OLED's advantages shine.

Im not sure if the VT/ZT60 had the phosphor trails of the ST60, if not that would be a better way to go. If I was looking for another plasma I would keep an eye out for a Samsung F8500 or a last gen Kuro.
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post #30 of 56 Old 03-14-2019, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by plasma_fan View Post
I have a ST30, ST60, and panasonic OLED.

Power draw during actual use as judged by the room heating effect is NO COMPARISON. Both my plasmas pump out the heat and made the room hot. When replaced with the OLED the room is kinda on cool side.

Motion is maybe a bit more subjective. The ST30 has the best motion of the 3, the ST60 has noticeable phosphor trails, and the OLED has motion blur. Between the ST60 and the OLED pick your poison, blur or phosphor trails. The OLED has BFI that fixes the blur, no downside is SDR content, but in HDR content it limits overall brightness too much. I prefer the OLED, but I am not giving up the plasma's, they make for amazing second TV's. Specifically on 1080p content in a dim room the ST60 is reasonably close to the OLED. If the room gets too bright, too dark, (or 4k content, or HDR, or...) and the OLED's advantages shine.

Im not sure if the VT/ZT60 had the phosphor trails of the ST60, if not that would be a better way to go. If I was looking for another plasma I would keep an eye out for a Samsung F8500 or a last gen Kuro.

I was never a big fan of the 3D TV's. My S60 doesn't draw that kind of heat and I have never experience any noticeable phosphor trails.



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