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post #1 of 52 Old 06-13-2019, 10:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Plasma is awesome

In 2012, I got my parents a Panasonic ST30 to replace their Sony RPTV from 2001. I went on to get an ST60, which I enjoyed for several years but had to put into storage when I moved abroad three years ago.

I've been visiting my parents and watched the NBA and NHL finals with my dad this week. The picture was absolutely gorgeous and the motion flawless. Both hockey on NBC at 1080i and basketball on ABC at 720p looked phenomenal. (Parents have DirecTV if you're wondering.) Off angle viewing was perfect; I could sit anywhere in the open-plan family room.

Yeah, hockey isn't quite as bright as it could be because of APL regulation, but contrast is still great, and most notably, black looks black. Colors including skintones are natural.

Once we get high-refresh rate OLED with BFI, plasma will be truly eclipsed. But for sports, there's little that can beat it right now.
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post #2 of 52 Old 06-14-2019, 06:15 PM
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Kinda makes you a little annoyed that Best Buy sales people would not recommend them to customers and instead sold them LCD TV's because they look brighter on the salesroom floor. SMH. We lost out big time on this tech.
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post #3 of 52 Old 06-15-2019, 08:58 AM
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Kinda makes you a little annoyed that Best Buy sales people would not recommend them to customers and instead sold them LCD TV's because they look brighter on the salesroom floor. SMH. We lost out big time on this tech.
I worked at a Magnolia showroom and even Panasonic reps wouldn't let you recommend one over their IPS LED offerings.

I just put my GT25 in the shop this morning with a power supply or SC board issue.
I'm looking at a $60-$120 repair, but it's worth it.

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post #4 of 52 Old 06-15-2019, 09:02 AM
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The end of plasma was a particularly harsh transition, with TVs that had finally achieved superlative levels of performance being relegated to the dustbin of history.

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post #5 of 52 Old 06-15-2019, 09:05 AM
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The end of plasma was a particularly harsh transition, with TVs that had finally achieved superlative levels of performance being relegated to the dustbin of history.
I sold at least 30 to friends while I worked at best buy. After I left those same friends started sending family to me when they wanted a new set.

My Sony HX929 is one of my all time favorite LED based displays, but wasn't close to my GT25 or GT50.

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post #6 of 52 Old 06-15-2019, 10:06 AM
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I, too, sold them for years. I wouldn't really blame the salespeople -- plasmas were typically a hard sell, considering how they looked on the floor. It really took a customer who was open, trusting, and willing to listen to plunk down for one. Converting a customer from an LCD to a plasma was always a small victory. My first plasma was a Panasonic G20, then VT50, and then a ZT60 and ST60. I still have the ST60 and it looks great. I rarely watch it, but when I do it really brings me back. The PDPs just possess a certain "look" that's difficult to quantify, but if I had to try, it's certainly "organic" and wonderfully filmic, with superb motion resolution, that my beloved (2017) OLED doesn't match. On the whole, 4K, HDR, and absolute black are huge upgrades but it'd be nice to have the best of everything.

I often wonder what Panasonic had roadmapped for MY2014 that we never got to see. The next generation of the F8500 would certainly have been interesting as well. RIP.
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It's because plasma is native RGB pixels that is looks so good and natural color-wise. OLED (currently) is still white light passing through color filters like LCD/LED, which is not ideal (for color quality or power efficiency).


The first generation Samsung OLED from 2013 was native RGB pixels and people who had it said the color was on par with Plasma and it had the same 'organic' look color-wise. What it gave up was poorer motion handling since -- I think -- it was sample and hold. But of course, unlike Plasma, it had perfect blacks.
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post #8 of 52 Old 06-15-2019, 10:46 AM
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I, too, sold them for years. I wouldn't really blame the salespeople -- plasmas were typically a hard sell, considering how they looked on the floor. It really took a customer who was open, trusting, and willing to listen to plunk down for one. Converting a customer from an LCD to a plasma was always a small victory. My first plasma was a Panasonic G20, then VT50, and then a ZT60 and ST60. I still have the ST60 and it looks great. I rarely watch it, but when I do it really brings me back. The PDPs just possess a certain "look" that's difficult to quantify, but if I had to try, it's certainly "organic" and wonderfully filmic, with superb motion resolution, that my beloved (2017) OLED doesn't match. On the whole, 4K, HDR, and absolute black are huge upgrades but it'd be nice to have the best of everything.



I often wonder what Panasonic had roadmapped for MY2014 that we never got to see. The next generation of the F8500 would certainly have been interesting as well. RIP.
They had shown a 4K plasma at CES (I believe) that never made it passed the prototype phase.
Since they had gotten the price down so much on their plasma line, the hike in price moving to 4k would have been a lot for consumers to stomach.

I remember seeing my first plasma in Sears in 97' and it was around $8-$10k.

In my time I owned a Vizio plasma, Pioneer 4270, Panasonic GT25, ST30, ST50, GT50 and Samsung D7000, E8000.

Still my favorite display types.


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They had shown a 4K plasma at CES (I believe) that never made it passed the prototype phase.
Since they had gotten the price down so much on their plasma line, the hike in price moving to 4k would have been a lot for consumers to stomach.

I remember seeing my first plasma in Sears in 97' and it was around $8-$10k.

In my time I owned a Vizio plasma, Pioneer 4270, Panasonic GT25, ST30, ST50, GT50 and Samsung D7000, E8000.

Still my favorite display types.


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What, no Sony?


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post #10 of 52 Old 06-15-2019, 12:49 PM
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What, no Sony?


Ian
Missed a few sony HX929, NX720 and X900E.
I have recently started seeing Sony plasmas online for next to nothing. They share the weird resolution found on Toshibas plasma displays of that time 1024x1024.

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post #11 of 52 Old 06-15-2019, 05:32 PM
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I can remember going into Best Buy and pretending like I didn't know anything and the sales people would always talk up LCD TV's. I used to do it ever time I went there. My wife would get annoyed.
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post #12 of 52 Old 06-15-2019, 05:49 PM
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I can remember going into Best Buy and pretending like I didn't know anything and the sales people would always talk up LCD TV's. I used to do it ever time I went there. My wife would get annoyed.
Just a couple weeks ago I was at customer service and noticed the store manager was there to do some sort of approval. So I asked "How's Samsung QLED doing, any better with this year's models that have the really good anti-glare filter?"

And his reply... "QLED is just Samsung's version of OLED. It's always sold well"

You know, when it's the store manager is saying something like that, to someone who he thinks is just a regular consumer, it does not give me a lot of confidence that consumers are going to get accurate information, and be engaged in a proper back-and-forth to determine their needs and priorities.

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post #13 of 52 Old 06-15-2019, 07:32 PM
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Kinda makes you a little annoyed that Best Buy sales people would not recommend them to customers and instead sold them LCD TV's because they look brighter on the salesroom floor. SMH. We lost out big time on this tech.
i think if i were a salesperson i would recommend lcd to everybody as well. simply because i believe most people who appreciate plasma knew they wanted plasma, and if i sent somebody home with plasma and they saw IR happen they'd freak out and come return the display.

i can't blame salespeople for the ignorance of consumers. though i do think manufacturers should get their share of the blame too. they certainly go out of their way trying to convince consumers that the easy thing to fix is the most important thing to fix, and that's why we have displays with 8k resolutions instead ones with uniform screens, good contrast, and realistic colors...
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post #14 of 52 Old 06-16-2019, 08:34 AM
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i think if i were a salesperson i would recommend lcd to everybody as well. simply because i believe most people who appreciate plasma knew they wanted plasma, and if i sent somebody home with plasma and they saw IR happen they'd freak out and come return the display.

i can't blame salespeople for the ignorance of consumers. though i do think manufacturers should get their share of the blame too. they certainly go out of their way trying to convince consumers that the easy thing to fix is the most important thing to fix, and that's why we have displays with 8k resolutions instead ones with uniform screens, good contrast, and realistic colors...
So you'd sell somebody a turd? That's great...
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So you'd sell somebody a turd? That's great...
Nah, but having worked there you need to take a minute and discover the needs of your customer.
He's right in the fact that most enthusiast have made up there mind what display they will buy before stepping into a big box store.



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Just a couple weeks ago I was at customer service and noticed the store manager was there to do some sort of approval. So I asked "How's Samsung QLED doing, any better with this year's models that have the really good anti-glare filter?"

And his reply... "QLED is just Samsung's version of OLED. It's always sold well"

You know, when it's the store manager is saying something like that, to someone who he thinks is just a regular consumer, it does not give me a lot of confidence that consumers are going to get accurate information, and be engaged in a proper back-and-forth to determine their needs and priorities.
Unlike many BB sales manager's, the one at Best Buy in my area had extensive manufacturer training and he sold me my current plasma quite willingly. Shortly after I bought my set, he was promoted to regional sales manager, a position I once held in the car audio business. He told me at that time that his personal display was a ZT 60 and made it clear to his sales personal at that time to push more plasma's and less LCD's, especially in the Magnolia dept. His emphasis was on quality, not just quantity.



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The balance of pros and cons of products that appeal to enthusiasts is often quite different from those that appeal to non-enthusiasts, and what works best for the former is often not fully appreciated by the latter.
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post #18 of 52 Old 06-16-2019, 01:03 PM
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Yes they are great, but I also understand and respect that "average joe" chose the lcd path..

For example we had this week really hot temperatures.. Almost 90 Fahrenheit in my room.. and I got the feeling that the picture of my S1 got dimmer..

Same next day after some while, so I took my meter out and messured extremly low light output numbers.. Under 40nits fullscreen brightness, also peak brightness much lower.. Something was wrong..

Next day in the morning when the tv was cool.. 60nits fullscreen, and peak brightness much higher.. Picture stunning bright.. After half an hour or so, the usual 50nits full screen brightness.. Aha...

So this thing has to reduce light output because of heat.. I have never thought about that..and I have never read anything on any review about that.. But the tv gets really hot, so there must be some protection.. Well, usually it is about 70 degrees in my room, not almost 90..

But summer is exactly the time you need light output.. bummer

Sorry for the rent.. but this is a bit frustrating because I hunted the S1 down especially because of the light output and now I have to worry that this thing will get a heat strike or blow up.. :-)

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post #19 of 52 Old 06-17-2019, 06:00 PM
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So you'd sell somebody a turd? That's great...
i wouldn't sell a ferrari to somebody who wants a grocery getter...

regardless of how 'easy' it is for an enthusiast to deal with the minor maintenance a plasma needs, many many people would see that as a deal breaker.

i would not recommend a plasma shopper go buy an led, ever. but i don't think plasmas are for everybody, either. i don't think the 'best picture' is for everybody. seriously.

i have not been a saleperson, so my read might be way off, but i'm going under the assumption that the uninformed consumer is more likely to return a plasma because of IR, a 'dim' picture, 'buzzing', or because they read online it'll cost them more in electricity, than to return an LED because of viewing angles, blacks, or screen uniformity. i think as a salesperson one of the tougher lessons to learn is that information is helpful, and when asked, an experienced opinion is valuable. but if you think you're going to convince every customer to like the things you like, you won't be a good salesperson

so, yes, i would sell somebody that wanted an lcd, an lcd. and i would probably not waste my time talking them into a plasma unless they expressed some interest in that tech first. what would be the benefit to that? a warm fuzzy feeling that i spent 2hrs talking somebody into a tv they won't even appreciate and notice a difference? there's a difference between educating a customer and guiding them towards a better product, and simply wasting your time. people who should buy plasmas, already know they want a plasma

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post #20 of 52 Old 06-18-2019, 10:26 AM
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A good salesperson not trying to steer customers in one direction or another could sum up in about 60 seconds the advantages and disadvantages of plasma vs. LCD and let the buyer make his final decision based on personal preferences for the balance of pros and cons each delivers.

For a quick example of one of several things a salesperson could point out without a long explanation, I recall walking into a Costco to buy one of the last available plasmas. As I turned down one of the long display aisles one TV at the far end was clearly brighter than all the rest from my extreme side viewing angle. As I walked down the aisle the dimmer TVs all started appearing brighter and the brighter one started appearing dimmer. Of course the brightest one from an angle that turned out to be the dimmest up close was the only plasma on display. I knew the viewing angle difference going in but a salesperson could have quickly and easily pointed it out to someone who didn't know.
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I said goodbye to my GT25 today. The mainboard is toast and the rebuild would have been $300+.

It was one of my favorite displays... Sad day.

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I said goodbye to my GT25 today. The mainboard is toast and the rebuild would have been $300+.

It was one of my favorite displays... Sad day.

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post #23 of 52 Old 06-18-2019, 03:08 PM
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I said goodbye to my GT25 today. The mainboard is toast and the rebuild would have been $300+.

It was one of my favorite displays... Sad day.

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RIP



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post #24 of 52 Old 06-18-2019, 08:24 PM
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i would not recommend a plasma shopper go buy an led, ever. but i don't think plasmas are for everybody, either. i don't think the 'best picture' is for everybody. seriously.
Many consumers were told that LCD has the best picture by salespeople. I've been told that myself. The first thing that anybody would ask when buying a TV is which one has the best picture. Unfortunately for Plasma that answer was often LCD.

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post #25 of 52 Old 06-18-2019, 08:37 PM
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A good salesperson not trying to steer customers in one direction or another could sum up in about 60 seconds the advantages and disadvantages of plasma vs. LCD and let the buyer make his final decision based on personal preferences for the balance of pros and cons each delivers.
Assuming we all agree than an LCD TV is inferior to a Plasma (which it is) then the issue comes down to a "good" salesperson knowingly selling somebody an inferior product. I would not be able to sleep at night.
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Back when I finally decided the 36" sony CRT was going to break through my floor and end up in the garage , I researched the crap out of TV's and decided Plasma was the technology I wanted , was undecided on brand but couldn't go top tier , the sales people at the probably 6 Best Buys I went to all tried to steer me to LCD instead . Had a few extolling how "amazing" the colors were on the LCD sets , dynamic or showroom mode in full effect .

Luckily a few years ago I discovered that most of the crew in the closest Magnolia to me are enthusiasts and actually knowledgeable about the products and will discuss pros/cons pretty honestly . I avoid the salespeople on the general floor until it's time to make a purchase , I don't expect them to know much beyond price and that either OLED or QLED is the best TV type . ( heard that last time I was in there) .

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post #27 of 52 Old 06-18-2019, 09:25 PM
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the sales people at the probably 6 Best Buys I went to all tried to steer me to LCD instead .
Same observation I made over the years.
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post #28 of 52 Old 06-18-2019, 11:28 PM
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I have an ST30 that's still my main display as well. Perfect uniformity and viewing angles will be really hard to give up whenever i finally move on from it. I have a KS8000 in the bedroom and I still think the ST30 is a better dark room television.
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post #29 of 52 Old 06-19-2019, 08:09 AM
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Assuming we all agree than an LCD TV is inferior to a Plasma (which it is) then the issue comes down to a "good" salesperson knowingly selling somebody an inferior product. I would not be able to sleep at night.
I don't agree that an LCD TV is inferior to plasma for all people in all situations. A good salesperson will cite a balanced summary of the pros and cons of each and let the customer make the final decision. A bad salesperson will try to steer customers in a direction that's not optimum for those customers' specific needs and personal preferences.
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post #30 of 52 Old 06-19-2019, 08:36 AM
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I don't agree that an LCD TV is inferior to plasma for all people in all situations. A good salesperson will cite a balanced summary of the pros and cons of each and let the customer make the final decision. A bad salesperson will try to steer customers in a direction that's not optimum for those customers' specific needs and personal preferences.
That's a good point. I have 3 LCD'S with matte screens. During the day two of the rooms, which include my kitchen, are pretty bright. I can not fathom viewing my plasma, which is in my den where I have controlled lighting 24/7, in those other rooms. It's just not practical.



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