Is power line conditioner really necessory for plasma HDTV? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 270 Old 03-15-2008, 11:56 AM
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Having some type of Surge protection is a must....and to me it is not any different than the reasons you install fuses and such between your AMP and the Battery in the car.....to protect the investment....for me, I feel better knowing that I have something between my TV and the wall....I have had the low-end power ceters in the past, but with my 6010, I went with the PureAV PF60.

Here where I am, we do have a decent amount of surges and spikes....so that's why I have it.....but I wouldn't spend more than $200 for it. I have something like this on all my TVs and My Computer.
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post #62 of 270 Old 03-15-2008, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by quicksilverc5 View Post

Having some type of Surge protection is a must....and to me it is not any different than the reasons you install fuses and such between your AMP and the Battery in the car.....to protect the investment....for me, I feel better knowing that I have something between my TV and the wall....I have had the low-end power ceters in the past, but with my 6010, I went with the PureAV PF60.

Here where I am, we do have a decent amount of surges and spikes....so that's why I have it.....but I wouldn't spend more than $200 for it. I have something like this on all my TVs and My Computer.

This is a great piece of equipment....I picked mine up for under $200 about two years ago. Not bad for an item which had an MSRP of around $700.00 originally. If anyone is interested...***************.com has a review on the PF60. Very nice review... http://www.***************.com/htsth...iew.php?rev=76

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post #63 of 270 Old 03-15-2008, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by schticker View Post

Sounds like an ad hominem. But that's how AVSers defend themselves; look for a person with a vested interest in something and assume they can't be trusted as a result. In the real world, if you have a longstanding and successful career in anything, chances are you have overkill amounts of training, real world experience to fall back on, and as a result of your skill set, happen to make money at it. Doesn't do anything but reinforce my point rather than destroy it.

OK, but you are not unbiased as a result. That's the point. Full disclosure and such, ya know?



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It's their gear. The IT and pro audio industry doesn't think devices like this are snake oil, so if you want to indict entire industries' decisions on their gear choices feel free.

We're talking residential consumer protection here not commercial.



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My banter? Plug all your stuff into a cheapo power strip and report back. It isn't about much else than protection, and although it isn't sexy, that doesn't make it irrelevant.

Been on my own for 30 years and have yet to lose any electrical device. My TV's, PC's, etc. are all on semi-cheapo power strips. Prior to the days of the home computer, power strips weren't used (invented?) . Though TV's were more money as a percentage of discretionary income.

don't get me wrong on protection. I agree it's a good idea. But you come out here bashing me because in my opinion, fancy power conditioners in the home are an emotional benefit at best to most. Sure you can find exceptions, like anything else.

If you sold Ford's, would you be on a car board saying how great they are? Of course you would. Same here.
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post #64 of 270 Old 03-15-2008, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by chaz01 View Post

Been on my own for 30 years and have yet to lose any electrical device. My TV's, PC's, etc. are all on semi-cheapo power strips. Prior to the days of the home computer, power strips weren't used (invented?) . Though TV's were more money as a percentage of discretionary income.

don't get me wrong on protection. I agree it's a good idea. But you come out here bashing me because in my opinion, fancy power conditioners in the home are an emotional benefit at best to most. Sure you can find exceptions, like anything else.

If you sold Ford's, would you be on a car board saying how great they are? Of course you would. Same here.

For me...one of the reasons I like my Belkin PF60....13 outlets to use and I need them. Not to mention I do believe in proper surge protection. As far as power conditioning....some need it and some do not. It really depends on each individual's setting and whether or not they have a problem with any interference etc etc. But once again....13 outlets and it also provides phone and cable protection. I am one who chooses not to be without one when plugging in expensive equipment.

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post #65 of 270 Old 03-15-2008, 01:05 PM
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Well, I don't sell anything, but after reading this whole thread I came under the impression that no one, except maybe russwong, knows anything at all about power conditioners. Surge protectors maybe. Power conditioners, no.

I have often wondered if the banding that some see on their display was the result of a fluctuating power source and whether a power conditioner would help. After reading this, I'm still wondering.

By definition 50% of people are below the median.
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post #66 of 270 Old 03-15-2008, 05:41 PM
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Back in my computer repair days, I have seen plenty of systems that were toasted, not because of a surge, but because of a brown out.....a good power center (conditioner) will protect you from this...a surge protector won't do that.

However, as noted before, the cleaner the power, the better life will be and the more performance you will get.....or at least the system should run at the "Rated Performance".....a good conditioner will keep the power within a specified performance band and also try to isolate the system from any bleed over.

You just have to remember that most surge and line conditioners have a limited life based on the way they perform their function, so don't expect a 10year old line conditioner (except a limited few...like brick wall) to perform like they should. I had to remind many of my computer customers to replace their run of the mill surge protectors at least every 2-3 years to help ensure that they would work.
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post #67 of 270 Old 03-15-2008, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcavictor1956 View Post

I have the PF60 which is one hell of a surge/power conditioner. Purchased it a couple of years ago for under $200.00 which was a great price. I am looking at the PF30 now also for my bedroom. Amazon or Buy.com have this for a fair price with free shipping. Besides the fact my PF60 provides me with 13 outlets, the protection alone against any surges is worth the price alone. My power fluctuates and is constantly going out during storms in the summer months.

I'm not an engineer or an electric guru, but I don't think a power conditioner is needed. It really does not do any conditioning in real life. This is because my APC J15 power conditioner only kicks in if the volts surge <100 or >134. I can't adjust the gap to be narrower, only higher. Never has the power fluctuated out of this range except during blackouts. At that time, the battery kicks in, which is convenient. But, I don't think it's worth the money.

As for protection, a quality surge protector is all you need. The only difference between a surge protector and a power conditioner is the 'power conditioning'. In real life, it will never function as a conditioner because the power never fluctuates out of a tolerable range such as <100V and >134V (relative to my APC specs).
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post #68 of 270 Old 03-20-2008, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by chaz01 View Post

OK, but you are not unbiased as a result. That's the point. Full disclosure and such, ya know?

There are (believe it or not) some well-known conditioners that we sell that are roughly $100 over cost. Certainly not a cash-cow, but are among the most effective out there. If they didn't do anything and all I wanted was to take money, I wouldn't recommend them. Alas the fact is, although more could be made on audio for that money, the effectiveness is too important.


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We're talking residential consumer protection here not commercial.

I didn't know electricity cared.


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Been on my own for 30 years and have yet to lose any electrical device.

LOL classic. I also have never been hit crossing the street, but it doesn't mean there's no point in looking both ways.

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My TV's, PC's, etc. are all on semi-cheapo power strips. Prior to the days of the home computer, power strips weren't used (invented?) . Though TV's were more money as a percentage of discretionary income.

Prior to the days of home computing electronics were also far simpler and not as susceptible to flaky power. Many devices will use switching power supplies that are not as robust of the old tanks.

Quote:


don't get me wrong on protection. I agree it's a good idea. But you come out here bashing me because in my opinion, fancy power conditioners in the home are an emotional benefit at best to most. Sure you can find exceptions, like anything else.

I will agree that there is no reason to fix a problem you don't have. "Fancy" is subjective, and I guarantee your definition is not the same as mine. Fancy takes a back seat to effective in this case.

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If you sold Ford's, would you be on a car board saying how great they are? Of course you would. Same here.

If we're talking cars, you would be the guy debating the efficacy of oil filters.

The First Clarke Law states, 'If an elderly but distinguished scientist says that something is possible he is almost certainly right, but if he says that it is impossible he is very probably wrong.'
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post #69 of 270 Old 03-20-2008, 07:11 PM
 
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Power conditions are definatly dependent on the HISTORY of your location.

IF you have burned out electrical devices in the past where you live, or your neighbors have, you MIGHT avoid a problem by purchasing protection.

BUT, the question is, what's the "best" protection? After 25 years I've only seen ONE device that saves electronic devices time after time after time.

The problem is, it USES power on it's own, because it's basicly a huge transformer. A ferroresonant power conditioner is the BEST protection for any electronic device. Why is this?

Because the core of a ferroresonant power conditioner's transformers will NOT allow surges or spikes through, period. I've seen an area lose 2 phases out of 3, and a 110 volt ferroresonant power conditioner suck all the remaining low voltage out of the area and STILL provide 110 volts to the computer connected to it. LOL. it was funny.

I've only put ferroresonant power conditioner's where the power was bad. Normally you won't need them, and all other kinds of protection ARE snake oil. Surge suppresors are either to slow, or only trip on currents or voltages way beyond what can actually break your electronics.

Some older UPS's had ferroresonant power conditioner's in them, they where good. But most do not. Some try to shunt over-voltages accross the batteries, most do not. And some cause as much trouble as they may try and save you. I've seen many APC units cycle on and off when they are near thier cut off voltage. How good is it to turn something on and off a few times in a minute? Not very..
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post #70 of 270 Old 03-21-2008, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schticker View Post

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Originally Posted by chaz01 View Post

Been on my own for 30 years and have yet to lose any electrical device.

LOL classic. I also have never been hit crossing the street, but it doesn't mean there's no point in looking both ways.

The difference is you have been looking both ways and hence never been hit but chaz01 has not been using power conditioning for 30 years without a problem.

For the record... I use Belkin surge suppressor. It's convenient with many outlets and marginal cost versus overall system. So for me it's an easy inexpensive choice that makes me feel better.
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post #71 of 270 Old 03-21-2008, 08:31 AM
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Personally I chose to get a surge supressor (panamax) simply for the reason of the design of my house. We have a small home in which there are many appliances linked in a very small series. Mornings for example, the current will approach 105V which is heading in a direction I do not wish to risk. It's keen to get what is suited for YOUR environment, ex. hair drier goes on in other room, current drops 8V.
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post #72 of 270 Old 03-21-2008, 09:13 AM
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No way I would spend $200 on a line conditioner for a $2500 TV. From all the reviews I've read, they offer absolutely zero quality improvements for most people, and the protection is minimal over standard surge protection. Unless you have some actual evidence that these provide some meaningful benefit relative to their cost it's just a marketing ploy no better than $100 hdmi cables.

I'll spend about $20-$30 on a surge strip and that's about it. I'd even say that's a losing proposition since the chance of a surge that would damage your tv without a surge protector but not with it is most likely even lower than 1%, but the extremely low premium makes it ok with me.
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post #73 of 270 Old 03-21-2008, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by obsid1an View Post

No way I would spend $200 on a line conditioner for a $2500 TV. From all the reviews I've read, they offer absolutely zero quality improvements for most people, and the protection is minimal over standard surge protection. Unless you have some actual evidence that these provide some meaningful benefit relative to their cost it's just a marketing ploy no better than $100 hdmi cables.


The First Clarke Law states, 'If an elderly but distinguished scientist says that something is possible he is almost certainly right, but if he says that it is impossible he is very probably wrong.'
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post #74 of 270 Old 03-21-2008, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by obsid1an View Post

No way I would spend $200 on a line conditioner for a $2500 TV. From all the reviews I've read, they offer absolutely zero quality improvements for most people, and the protection is minimal over standard surge protection. Unless you have some actual evidence that these provide some meaningful benefit relative to their cost it's just a marketing ploy no better than $100 hdmi cables.

I'll spend about $20-$30 on a surge strip and that's about it. I'd even say that's a losing proposition since the chance of a surge that would damage your tv without a surge protector but not with it is most likely even lower than 1%, but the extremely low premium makes it ok with me.

You read the review above from ***************? Obviously you have not read this review.

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post #75 of 270 Old 03-21-2008, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by LKDog View Post

The OP asked about line conditioners-not surge protectors.

I would respectfully suggest checking out this website and the Power Enhancer.

http://alanmaherdesigns.com/default.aspx

I have been in high end audio for years-this is the only power line conditioner product that I use. Many feel it has a prfound impact on video also.

I second PE and hammond choke + power conditioner. The do wonder for the video.
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post #76 of 270 Old 03-22-2008, 11:42 AM
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If you have to ask yourself if something is necessary, it usually means somewhere you know that it is, you're just looking for external justification to spend the money. Let's not over-think this.

The First Clarke Law states, 'If an elderly but distinguished scientist says that something is possible he is almost certainly right, but if he says that it is impossible he is very probably wrong.'
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post #77 of 270 Old 03-22-2008, 12:13 PM
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Just a note :

There is an option of buying a whole home surge unit that is tied into your breaker box and then everything in your home is protected. Cantact your local electrician for more info.... The actuall part is about $250 but to hire an electrcian will cost some cash.
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post #78 of 270 Old 03-22-2008, 01:57 PM
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I've witnessed equipment damage on 4 separate occasions. 2 brownout, 1 power outage (where the power went on and off a few times) and 1 lightning storm.

The first time: Lightning. I had a monitor directly on the outlet. I was using it at the time. Lightning fried the power supply at least, maybe more. (I used it as an excuse to get a new monitor)

The second time: Brownout. I had a really cheap off-brand surge protector. This time, it fried the MBR on my HTPC's boot partition THROUGH the surge protector. My computer wasn't even turned on at the time. I kid you not, it booted my machine from a power-off state! A cyber-hacker from William Gibson's wet dreams couldn't do that on purpose. Murphy's law? (Luckily, I kept my data on a separate partition)

The third time: Intermittent power outage. (City of Boston electrical is notorious) TV turns off. This time, I heard a big POP and smelled burnt silicon. My TV wouldn't turn back on. OH NO! I see smoke rising from behind the TV. I look back there: My not-so-cheap surge protector has given its life protecting my rather expensive TV and all my components. Yay!

The fourth time: Brownout at work. Building has surge protection. I have UPS, everything is fine. Guy next to me doesn't. Whammo, dead power supply, motherboard AND hard drive. (Total data loss! forensics weren't able to restore any of the assets he was working on)

So, my very unscientific results say:

* UPS only if you can't afford to lose power momentarily, for example while flashing something's BIOS...
* Surge protectors for every piece of electronics. Not cheap ones, not Monster, but something in between.

NOTE: Some surge protectors will prevent your devices from turning back on immediately. They essentially act like a circuit breaker, you have to reset them before they pass through power again. This is VERY important, because very short power losses and brownouts cause the worst case scenario, which is not losing power long enough to turn the device off, but rather losing it just long enough to scramble its brain when it tries to keep going.

The above is the best reason to go with UPS or an advanced surge protector. This is NOT the same thing as throwing your money away on Monster products. I'm embarassed to say I used to do that, but I've now learned that similar quality can be had for literally 20% or less of what Monster charges, if you buy online.

As for conditioned power? Honestly, it DOES help, in the rare instance where you actually need it. It's about as likely as getting stuck by lightning. It's like car insurance. Your $5000 car has a $250 deductible and you pay $50/month. Is it worth it? That's really up to you to decide... For me, Murphy's Law applies. If I don't get it, then I'll need it. I'm paying The Fates a premium to avoid bad luck, by getting warranties and insurance. I fully expect to never need it... as long as I'm paying for it.
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post #79 of 270 Old 03-22-2008, 02:46 PM
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More basically, I think anything that writes to a drive should have an UPS for obvious reasons.

Beyond that, the Panamax/Furman (and others) philosophy of removing power if swings are too high OR too low is a good way to go. After all, the best protection is no connection.
Using a $20-40 strip outlet gets you what you paid for.. a device than can barely protect itself let alone what's plugged into it.

Whether audio or video is improved with a conditioner, etc. should be a secondary consideration. I don't think anything is better in that regard than a dedicated circuit for your HT equipment. A luxury for most of us. Breaker box protection is a good alternative, but does not serve an UPS function, as mentioned above.

Obviously, if you live where power instability is common or you have frequent outages, tailor your needs accordingly.

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post #80 of 270 Old 03-23-2008, 06:56 AM
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After reading the rebuttal to my post(s), I most humbly retract my statements regarding power conditioners.

Thank you so much for your obvious superior intellect and insights.

Who was I to believe that my experience and opinion mattered?

Please forgive my insolence and short sighted view of power conditioners.

I am but your servant, oh exalted conditioner of power.
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post #81 of 270 Old 03-23-2008, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faterikcartman View Post

Well, I don't sell anything, but after reading this whole thread I came under the impression that no one, except maybe russwong, knows anything at all about power conditioners. Surge protectors maybe. Power conditioners, no.

I have often wondered if the banding that some see on their display was the result of a fluctuating power source and whether a power conditioner would help. After reading this, I'm still wondering.

Stop wondering - it's not.
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post #82 of 270 Old 03-23-2008, 03:30 PM
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My 24" WS monitor got fried almost two weeks ago from a brown out (they are pretty frequent here). It was connected to a cheapo surge protector. Nothing else in the house, including my plasma (connected to a tripplite isobar), was effected. However, this got me thinking about about undervoltage protection. I'm going to pick up an APC RS 1500 UPS for my PC, and another yet to be determined UPS for the plasma & HT receiver. I'm not worried about conditioning, solely AVR capability for protection against brownouts. Any suggestions? I'd rather be safe than sorry.
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post #83 of 270 Old 03-23-2008, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by temeone View Post

My 24" WS monitor got fried almost two weeks ago from a brown out (they are pretty frequent here). It was connected to a cheapo surge protector. Nothing else in the house, including my plasma (connected to a tripplite isobar), was effected. However, this got me thinking about about undervoltage protection. I'm going to pick up an APC RS 1500 UPS for my PC, and another yet to be determined UPS for the plasma & HT receiver. I'm not worried about conditioning, solely AVR capability for protection against brownouts. Any suggestions? I'd rather be safe than sorry.

Good idea, but you want to look at their Smart-UPS those are the ones that have true sine wave output. The cheaper Back-UP do not have that feature.

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post #84 of 270 Old 03-23-2008, 08:14 PM
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I posted in this thread asking about a Phillips surge suppressor available at Walmart, that seems to be too good to be true. It says unlimited joules rating. What type is it?
Go To:
https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1005386
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post #85 of 270 Old 03-24-2008, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iatacs19 View Post

Good idea, but you want to look at their Smart-UPS those are the ones that have true sine wave output. The cheaper Back-UP do not have that feature.

I am considering one with a true sine wave output for the HT setup if I need one, but not for the PC. I actually already purchased the BR1500LCD for that purpose.
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post #86 of 270 Old 03-24-2008, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RicheyPoor View Post

Stop wondering - it's not.

So this Paul Taatjes guy from Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity is lying when he says this about a power conditioner?

"However, there is no question as to the UPC-200's effect on my video system. I am not talking about any increased detail or more 3D video images, but a total correction of a major issue I was having. Between my receiver, DVD player, and projector, I was having a ground loop type issue which manifest itself as a nasty rolling banding noise on the screen. It was driving me absolutely nuts! Then I got the UPC-200 and plugged my DVD player in one of the banks, the receiver in the other, and my projector directly in the wall. This was supposed to completely isolate my equipment and hopefully fix my issue. It worked perfectly and as advertised. No noise, no banding, just a clean picture. It was one of those benefits that anyone could see."

By definition 50% of people are below the median.
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post #87 of 270 Old 03-24-2008, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by faterikcartman View Post

Well, I don't sell anything, but after reading this whole thread I came under the impression that no one, except maybe russwong, knows anything at all about power conditioners. Surge protectors maybe. Power conditioners, no.

I think this is accurate. the original poster question was, IF YOU ALREADY HAVE a UPS and surge protection, is it worth it to ADD a power conditioner as well?

Lots of comments like this (not singling you out, just an example):

Quote:


Having some type of Surge protection is a must

But I don't think anyone was debating the merits of surge protection.

The question is, if you already have a nice surge protector and UPS, and you live in an area with a stable power supply, does the ADDITIONAL cost or a line conditioner provide any added benefit?

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post #88 of 270 Old 03-24-2008, 04:33 PM
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post #89 of 270 Old 03-24-2008, 04:38 PM
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post #90 of 270 Old 03-24-2008, 04:54 PM
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No way I would spend $200 on a line conditioner for a $2500 TV. From all the reviews I've read, they offer absolutely zero quality improvements for most people, and the protection is minimal over standard surge protection. Unless you have some actual evidence that these provide some meaningful benefit relative to their cost it's just a marketing ploy no better than $100 hdmi cables.
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Originally Posted by schticker View Post


I'd have to say that for someone apparently in the line conditioner/surge suppression business, you're really not hitting the ball out of the park on convincing anyone of the efficacy/necessity of those components.

I've been operating on cheapo power strips my whole life and have never lost a piece of electronics to a surge (as far as I know) - including the TV in my bedroom that is its third decade of service. To be sure, that is only anecdotal evidence and merely one data point, but it does underscore why I personally am leery about buying surge insurance in the form of more expensive power conditioning products. Additionally, I'm skeptical whether the line conditioning aspect would provide any benefit.

If you have some data or information, I'd like to see it. But "lots of people say it's effective" and "here's a funny picture that calls someone who disagrees with me an idiot" aren't working on me. If I'm wrong, please educate rather than mock.
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