Is power line conditioner really necessory for plasma HDTV? - Page 9 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #241 of 270 Old 04-26-2008, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by djnsmith7 View Post

You misread or misinterpreted my point. My point is that it's not worth having an argument over or cause for personal attacks. And for you to say that I have a poor attitude, well, you can join the rest of the group of condesending people in this thread.

I'm trying to help reduce the amount of tension in this thread, not add to it. There's absolutely no reason for these attacks, especially against me.

You absolutely misinterpreted my point. I didn't attack you. I totally agree that the arguing is silly, and I've made numerous attempts on this thread to try to keep the discussion on track and encourage those with expertise to contribute constructively.

I apologize for not articulating myself clearly, and I certainly wasn't saying you have a poor attitude, like not YOU, personally . My only point was that, just because this thread/topic tends to devolve into the kind of arguments we've seen, doesn't mean it's not a valid topic for discussion with real information out there to be had. The "stop arguing, you either want it or you don't" comment reads to me as figuratively throwing ones hands up in the air in frustration, whereas I'm saying, "wait, I am still interested in the original subject of discussion, there are still people out there who want a concrete answer backed by solid info."

Honestly, I really wasn't attacking or intending any offense.

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post #242 of 270 Old 04-26-2008, 04:48 PM
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Cool. Point taken.

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post #243 of 270 Old 04-26-2008, 05:22 PM
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It will take one hell of a conditioner to smooth out the irregularities on this topic!!!

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post #244 of 270 Old 04-26-2008, 06:21 PM
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Let's nominate this thread for thread of the year

I don't think it has accomplished anything at all, other than everyone on the forums finding out what kind of tool Schticker is.

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post #245 of 270 Old 04-26-2008, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by schticker View Post

f In the process, the people that do know better are apparently content with letting me respond by myself, but that's OK.

Imaginary people are fickle that way.
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post #246 of 270 Old 04-26-2008, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

and I've made numerous attempts on this thread to try to keep the discussion on track and encourage those with expertise to contribute constructively.

Actually if you read through this thread the point from the OP has been answered definitively several times with the experiences of several with some expertise....including those who have tested the filtering ability of the power supplies in all AV gear and computer equipment.

Besides the little bit of fun to be had schticking it to schtickler, the topic has run its course.
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post #247 of 270 Old 04-27-2008, 04:32 AM
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Back to Topic ,
I dont use conditioners, the wife does though..hehe...(just surge protectors)...

But i must say, I have a HouseCall to old Farm Houses/Homes at least once a month.
Always seems to be components that have phone line connections...so yah if you have old wiring, Fo Sho!!!
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post #248 of 270 Old 04-27-2008, 06:59 AM
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Hi All,

I've been a mid to high end audio hobbyist for 20 years or so. I've read my share of "snake oil" advertising, tried some of the products, and generally made my own conclusions based upon personal experience and some help from a few friends who are EEs to help my cut through the facts vs. fiction.

With that said...

To the poor fellow who started this thread asking about a line conditioner (and everyone who has flamed about), why not just try something for yourself and determine if it has a positive impact on your viewing experience or not. If it does, good for you. If not, return the device. Pure and simple.

My experience...

I've used power conditioning and regeneration equipment from a few "high end" manufacturers. Some had an impact. Others not so much. If your equipment is built with top-notch power supplies, you generally do not need a power conditioner unless you just want to ensure you're delivering the best power you can to your devices. (There will always be a point of diminishing returns.) However, in many cases, the power supplies in a lot of CE equipment (especially as you get into lower price points) are not always top-notch and can benefit from power conditioning.

I can positively say, without a doubt in my mind, that in my case a power conditioner equipment improved the performance of both my audio and video gear in a manner that pleased me. The improvement in video was enough that my girlfriend -- who really could care less about my hobby and all the geeky stuff I have and talk about -- on her own asked if I had changed anything after adding the conditioner. She noticed that my panel looked better to her eyes. It was a real shocker to me, too. :-)

Some of the information on this thread is good. Most of it is garbage. The best way to cut through it all is to try whatever you're unsure about for yourself vs. listening to endless flamers most of whom have little to no experience on the topic. Just make sure you can return whatever you buy for a full refund.

Remember to have fun. Its why we're all here.

All the Best, Steve

P.S. I purposely did not provide a listing of my gear or the power equipment I'm using.
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post #249 of 270 Old 04-27-2008, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WireBrat View Post

Hi All,


I've used power conditioning and regeneration equipment from a few "high end" manufacturers. Some had an impact. Others not so much. If your equipment is built with top-notch power supplies, you generally do not need a power conditioner unless you just want to ensure you're delivering the best power you can to your devices. (There will always be a point of diminishing returns.) However, in many cases, the power supplies in a lot of CE equipment (especially as you get into lower price points) are not always top-notch and can benefit from power conditioning.

If it's "low end gear" then you probably won't notice or care about the PQ or Audio Quality by adding a conditioner. If it's "high end gear" it usually has a good power supply and it's redundant. So it really doesn't do anything to add a conditioner in either case !!! It does do one thing, it wastes energy, so if that's your goal, go for it (the energy companies love folks like this).

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post #250 of 270 Old 04-27-2008, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by WireBrat View Post

If your equipment is built with top-notch power supplies, you generally do not need a power conditioner unless you just want to ensure you're delivering the best power you can to your devices.

Actually, almost all of the power supplies in the cheapest gear will regulate and filter the power just fine...and all of them have transformer isolation....and thats been the case for a long...LONG time now. Thats what you would expect from the design of those power supplies on paper...and thats exactly what you get in practice. More, digital devices have another layer of filtration that makes the whole thing a non-issue.

Of course, line interference on an analog data line (not power line) is another story..maybe thats where you saw some improvement in your setup.
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post #251 of 270 Old 04-27-2008, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike infinity View Post

Actually, almost all of the power supplies in the cheapest gear will regulate and filter the power just fine...and all of them have transformer isolation....and thats been the case for a long...LONG time now. Thats what you would expect from the design of those power supplies on paper...and thats exactly what you get in practice. More, digital devices have another layer of filtration that makes the whole thing a non-issue.

I have been making this point for some time, but the isolation is just a small part of why line filtering is mostly irrelevant.

Anyone who has seen improvements in their system due to line conditioning, please post the measurements and/or scope images that explain where this improvement came from. I have yet to document line noise making it through a SMPS conversion. And I have made quite a few attempts.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...html#post95398

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post #252 of 270 Old 04-27-2008, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

I have been making this point for some time, but the isolation is just a small part of why line filtering is mostly irrelevant.

Anyone who has seen improvements in their system due to line conditioning, please post the measurements and/or scope images that explain where this improvement came from. I have yet to document line noise making it through a SMPS conversion. And I have made quite a few attempts.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...html#post95398

Another question would be, are you NOT seeing adverse affects due to a poor line condition because you do have line conditioning?

Since these are typically random, proving it is not likely unless you have the line continuously monitored for such conditions, and perhaps another display plugged in before the conditioner so you can visually see the difference (along with a storage scope, etc. to capture the transient).
This WILL work easier if the incidence of such line conditions are common, or occur the same time of day, etc.

We can easily see the difference with some buffering from an UPS during brown-outs vs. no back up supply, but when it comes to noise or other irregularities one would be pressed to support an improvement.

To say a picture looks better all the time, or audio sounds better with a conditioner is (1) strictly a placebo effect, (2) strictly subjective, and likely very subtle if at all.

But we can not totally out rule perception either.
While our senses are typically unreliable, they are good at detecting changes from the norm, over time.

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post #253 of 270 Old 04-27-2008, 11:32 PM
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In my rural community, a voltage stabilizer is worthwhile. I've seen 17v corrections with my AVS2000. My plasma has run perfectly hooked up this way.
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post #254 of 270 Old 04-28-2008, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Fresh Fish View Post

In my rural community, a voltage stabilizer is worthwhile. I've seen 17v corrections with my AVS2000. My plasma has run perfectly hooked up this way.

Remember that the filtering and voltage regulation in your plasma's internal PS 'corrects' for voltage variations like these as well. So would your plasma run just as perfectly without a line conditioner?

I have seen large voltage variations as well on our lines...none of it causes any of our computer or AV gear to miss a beat.
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post #255 of 270 Old 04-28-2008, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by videoaddikt View Post

To say a picture looks better all the time, or audio sounds better with a conditioner is (1) strictly a placebo effect, (2) strictly subjective, and likely very subtle if at all.

More importantly, the scientific merit of the claim trumps subjective observations and anecdotal evidence.

Even if we ignore the fact that the internal PS in AV gear is more than adequate to filter power line noise, what effect will unfiltered line noise have on PQ?

An unfiltered 10-20% voltage sag would actually cause a crash on the processing side of the electronics in any display. This wouldn't mean a subtle deterioration in PQ...it would mean the display would not function at all.

If, on the other hand, the voltage sags are within the tolerance of the digital electronic components, then we shouldn't see any deterioration in PQ at all.

Of course, the entire point is academic since the internal PS in AV gear DOES filter the power. This can't be ignored.
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post #256 of 270 Old 04-28-2008, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by mike infinity View Post


Of course, the entire point is academic since the internal PS in AV gear DOES filter the power. This can't be ignored.

I agree, the internal supplies should provide adequate filtering/buffering for all practical purposes. Leaving surge protection and/or battery back up likely the only effective external protection one could provide for their gear.

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post #257 of 270 Old 04-29-2008, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by skeelo58 View Post

I apologize that I don't have as many posts as you. I actually have a life. I read more than I post. I post when I feel like it.

I guess I thought doing keg stands was "having a life" in school too, but I digress.

Quote:


Just cuz you have 2000+ posts does not make you AVSforum god. It just makes you some little internet geek that likes to come on forums and spout off your opinions as facts, with no proof to back them up.

If you remember (shouldn't be too long ago for you) there's a separate assessment for reading comprehension, not just pronouncing the words adequately. If you had scored well on that, you would have noticed the part about "reiterating that which has been established" vs "inventing opinions and expecting others to accept." I realize lack of experience in this topic (and many others no doubt) prevents you from being aware of these things, but it is what it is.

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I guess, if I tried, I could probably be like you. All that I would have to do is quit my job, hook up with some fatty, and then spend 8 hours a day on AVSforum. That sounds about right, doesn't it?

Actually that sounds like something that would happen in ND.

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Now, before you respond, I can guess what you are gonna say. I'm psychic. Watch.... You will say "I have a job and make wayyyyyyyy more than you, and my wife is smoking hot, blah blah blah" That is the typical internet user response. And ya know what? You probably do make more money than me. I'm still in college. I graduate in a few weeks, but I still don't know what I wanna do with my life. good for you, you have a leg up on me. And ya know what else? your wife is probably hotter than mine, cuz I'm not married. Congratulations. Give yourself a pat on the back.

No, that sounds like something a college kid like yourself would say.

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But Schticker, go look in the mirror. Take a gooooooooooood look. Now say to yourself "I am a loser. nobody likes me. I should do society a favor and run in front of oncoming traffic"

All this over a surge protector thread eh? Clearly you have little experience in dealing with actual adults in real life, or else you're typing these things with a straw from a hospital bed.

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All you are doing is trolling this exact same thread, I can see how you have like 2,300 posts. 2,000 of em came from this thread alone.

Now like I said before, just shut your pie hole, and move on.

Trolls are often people that disagree with you. That isn't hard here, for the same reasons kids fight with their parents.

Quote:


You still have offered no proof, and to be honest, you are starting to sound as vague as the daily horoscopes in the newspaper. Your comeback to everything is something along these lines..... "well, to the un-educated consumer, you might not think line-conditioning is necessary blah blah"

The uneducated consumer is exactly the type that tends to get as heated as you when told they're off-base. The whole purchase defending thing you know.

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Ya know what, just cuz you got suckered into paying $500 for that Monster power conditioner doesnt mean you have to stick up for it till the day you die. It's ok. We understand. You are a sucker. You should change your name from Schticker to Sucker. Now, we are all still waiting for you to provide some proof that line conditioning is necessary, let alone beneficial in anyway.

Show us all why surge/line conditioning doesn't work. That should be easy for your expansive knowledge. Or, probably not, since you find value in parroting other people armed with scopes with no experience. Proof of that? In theory, products can filter. In reality, more stuff I see coming through service centers is due to poor power or surges (along with ol age, coming in a close second). Any tech doing this for more than five minutes and relying on reality vs theory would also have similar observations.

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Now I'm out. NFL draft is on. I don't have time to be responding to Schtickers crap all day long. Lata

Back to stuff your speed, good call. Lots of partying to do too, ya know?

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post #258 of 270 Old 07-22-2012, 11:37 PM
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History is funny. Doing a bit of Internet research on running a mobile recording setup from a xantrex 1500 battery backup w/ stepped sine output. Schticker, if yer out there, you are one dumb homie. This thread was hilarious. Kudos to everyone.

Tested just fine. Mac mini 2011 w 2 metric halo interfaces and a toshiba mobile USB monitor. Runs 12 hours with phantom on all channels, whoop! The ac output of the xantrex is fine. Earthworks mics tested exactly the same down to around -120 dB. No conditioning needed. All components heat as expected, no weird noises from the boxes. If there's a situation where a difference would be noticed in any way, this is it.
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post #259 of 270 Old 10-12-2012, 01:44 PM
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Hey all,

What do you guys think about using one of these? http://amzn.com/B00009RA5Z

I'm going to be running a 55" plasma TV with a DVR, Xbox and eventually a simple soundbar. I've ruled out the UPS because if the DVR fails, I will just return it to the cable company.

Anyone use this?
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post #260 of 270 Old 10-12-2012, 02:57 PM
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That is all you need. A UPS is needless because the backup time they provide is not really usable.

Tony
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post #261 of 270 Old 10-12-2012, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by adone36 View Post

That is all you need. A UPS is needless because the backup time they provide is not really usable.
Personally having owned both, I don't think either the line conditioner or ups is needed. It's a nice to have. The battery backup is more useful for everyday life than a line conditioner. It gives me time to shut down my pc and anything else connected. It would be great to have limitless time backup.

Line conditioner, or filter, I still think it's snake oil, especially for the TV. I think (non-expert opinion) we've all used many tv's throughout our lives, well before HDTV existed, well before power stations, lines or electrical wiring progressed, and well before TV circuity improved. Yet, our old b/w tubes still lasted well beyond the time we care to still keep them. But, give me a free line conditioner and I'll take it.
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post #262 of 270 Old 01-01-2013, 10:14 AM
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And ALL houses/apartments have dirty power.
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post #263 of 270 Old 01-01-2013, 10:24 AM
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I realize this post is 5 years old. But i can't resist replying to people who think they know what they are talking about. houses do not have built in surge protection. Unless you have something installed by the utility company, and even then it's not to protect sensitive, expensive a/v equipment.mad.gifmad.gif
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post #264 of 270 Old 01-01-2013, 11:39 AM
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I've seen plenty that do, and you can frequently install them yourself (or have your electrician do it for you of course). Without one, your point-of-use surge protector isn't going to be nearly as effective - so yes, they are protecting your sensitive equipment to some extent. The experts all agree you need both whole house and POU protection, and of course even then you can't stop everything.
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post #265 of 270 Old 01-01-2013, 01:01 PM
 
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Add to that protectors at the catv, satellite, telephone connections, and good connection to earth ground of all. Will protect you in case of a problem coming downline through the POCO wires, but nothing protects from a direct lightening strike, unless you disconnect all incoming lines going to your equipment.

I always install a telephone keystone to allow disconnect of the telephone wiring in the house, from the incoming telco wire, and easy access to the catv connection point in the house.
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post #266 of 270 Old 10-30-2019, 02:59 AM
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My Panasonic Plasma TV screen TURNS OFF to BLACK SCREEN for 1-3 seconds with a bright white flash most of the time when my neighbour or me swich on a light bulb..


Please help me to fix this issue, it has been really annoying to watch a movie when the screen goes to dark for 3 seconds every 20 minuts or so..


I have tried to put a simple cheap APC voltage regulator in front of the plasma with no success.


I have however it seems reduced the duration and frequency of the Black screen interruptions by putting big ferrite beads on each ends of the power cables and on each ends of every hdmi cables connected..


I am sure the screen turns dark because of turning on other electric appliance or ligh bulbs as because i can reproduce it just by switching a light on and of rapidly..


Do i need to buy a BIG power conditioner or voltage regulator to fix this issue?


I was wondering if maybe i should buy a PowerWalker AVR 3000, that offers "Online double converter (protection class 9 (whatever that means..))"
the manuals seems to say it :



"protect sensitive electronics from brownouts and overvoltage"


"ProtectionSurge Rating 312J+190J
Over-voltage, Under-voltage, Over-heat, Over-current, Surge, Spike Suppression"

Time delay function eliminates transients that can affect connected equipment

Over-voltage, under-voltage, over-heat and over currentprotection

Provides surge and spikesuppression


I had this problem with other Panasonic Plasma screen turning dark sometime when i turn on other electric appliance but on this model it has become so annoying because it happens so frequently..

any idea what is causing this, and how to fix it?






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post #267 of 270 Old 10-31-2019, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessa View Post
My Panasonic Plasma TV screen TURNS OFF to BLACK SCREEN for 1-3 seconds with a bright white flash most of the time when my neighbour or me swich on a light bulb..


Please help me to fix this issue, it has been really annoying to watch a movie when the screen goes to dark for 3 seconds every 20 minuts or so..


I have tried to put a simple cheap APC voltage regulator in front of the plasma with no success.


I have however it seems reduced the duration and frequency of the Black screen interruptions by putting big ferrite beads on each ends of the power cables and on each ends of every hdmi cables connected..


I am sure the screen turns dark because of turning on other electric appliance or ligh bulbs as because i can reproduce it just by switching a light on and of rapidly..


Do i need to buy a BIG power conditioner or voltage regulator to fix this issue?


I was wondering if maybe i should buy a PowerWalker AVR 3000, that offers "Online double converter (protection class 9 (whatever that means..))"
the manuals seems to say it :



"protect sensitive electronics from brownouts and overvoltage"


"ProtectionSurge Rating 312J+190J
Over-voltage, Under-voltage, Over-heat, Over-current, Surge, Spike Suppression"

Time delay function eliminates transients that can affect connected equipment

Over-voltage, under-voltage, over-heat and over currentprotection

Provides surge and spikesuppression


I had this problem with other Panasonic Plasma screen turning dark sometime when i turn on other electric appliance but on this model it has become so annoying because it happens so frequently..

any idea what is causing this, and how to fix it?





I did buy the PowerWalker AVR 3000 Online double converter but resulting in no change whatsoever on my electrical problem...


The switching on or off of lights bulbs in other rooms or even in my neighbour appartement still produce a bref interuption of the Plasma TV immage turning the screen to black with in a sort of white artfact flash..



The only thing that seemed to help was installing the big ferrite beads on each ends of all power cables and hdmi cables, but it did not totally remove the problem...


I ran out of ideas, could this be magnetic interference?
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post #268 of 270 Old 10-31-2019, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Alessa View Post
My Panasonic Plasma TV screen TURNS OFF to BLACK SCREEN for 1-3 seconds with a bright white flash most of the time when my neighbor or me swich on a light bulb..


Please help me to fix this issue, it has been really annoying to watch a movie when the screen goes to dark for 3 seconds every 20 minuts or so..


I have tried to put a simple cheap APC voltage regulator in front of the plasma with no success.


I have however it seems reduced the duration and frequency of the Black screen interruptions by putting big ferrite beads on each ends of the power cables and on each ends of every hdmi cables connected..


I am sure the screen turns dark because of turning on other electric appliance or ligh bulbs as because i can reproduce it just by switching a light on and of rapidly..


Do i need to buy a BIG power conditioner or voltage regulator to fix this issue?


I was wondering if maybe i should buy a PowerWalker AVR 3000, that offers "Online double converter (protection class 9 (whatever that means..))"
the manuals seems to say it :



"protect sensitive electronics from brownouts and overvoltage"


"ProtectionSurge Rating 312J+190J
Over-voltage, Under-voltage, Over-heat, Over-current, Surge, Spike Suppression"

Time delay function eliminates transients that can affect connected equipment

Over-voltage, under-voltage, over-heat and over currentprotection

Provides surge and spikesuppression


I had this problem with other Panasonic Plasma screen turning dark sometime when i turn on other electric appliance but on this model it has become so annoying because it happens so frequently..

any idea what is causing this, and how to fix it?





i got news for you Ol Son, you have an electrical problem, possibly a service level problem too. did you not understand what you said, you or your neighbor turn on a light or an appliance affects your tv, i wouldn't be sleeping in that place. you need an electrician.

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post #269 of 270 Old 11-01-2019, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by solarrdadd View Post
i got news for you Ol Son, you have an electrical problem, possibly a service level problem too. did you not understand what you said, you or your neighbor turn on a light or an appliance affects your tv, i wouldn't be sleeping in that place. you need an electrician.

Right! He's got a voltage drop situation somewhere.
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post #270 of 270 Old 11-16-2019, 05:13 AM
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Right! He's got a voltage drop situation somewhere.

How can i fix this problem?
i have tried 3 different Power conditioners and none of them have fixed this problem..

an APC line voltage regulator,

and also an HUDGE phillips laboratory power conditioner,

and the PowerWalker AVR 3000 Online double converter all without success..


I am kind of desperate to find a solution because this is very annoying when watching a movie you loose 3-4 seconds of the movie with a black screen every so often...


How can i be sure the problem is a voltage drop? could it be also some kind of manetic or RFI or electrostaic interference ?
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