HDMI cables that support 4K@60Hz, 4:4:4 chroma, and Deep Color? - Page 48 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1411 of 2304 Old 01-23-2017, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Lynkage View Post
Hello fellow AVSer's,

I have just installed a JVC RS 500 into my theater.

My gear is as follows:

Sources: Oppo 203, Oppo 103D, Roku Ultra

Pre Pro: Anthem AVM 60

And my JVC projector.

All devices have the latest firmware.

Cables are: BJC Series-1 30' garden hose , and a misc. bunch of the Monoprice 18.2Gbs Premium 6/10' cables and some Tera Grand 6/10' Premium cables and the cable that came with the oppo 203.

When I plug everything in and choose say, input 1 HDMI 1, (Oppo 203), the oppo says for best performance please plug in a 4K tv or something very similar. The AVM 60 displays 1080P on the front display as does the info panel of the JVC. I have tried to turn on the RS 500 first then the avm 60 (after the JVC is on for better handshake ability) and still no luck. It does this for both the Roku and Oppo 203. I have also forced the Roku into 4K but when it is plugged in to the AVM it says 4K not available.

In troubleshooting, I ran the garden hose directly to the Oppo 203 and bingo 4K no problem, same with the Roku. Does this sound like a cable problem? The AVM is suposed to be pass-through but I don't know where to troubleshoot from here.

Can any of the Guru's here point me in a direction to maybe get any more info to troubleshoot with?

Thanks in advance.
Sounds more like a setting issue. My experience with cable issues is that that you'll get no picture, white flashes or sparkles but it will always try and send the fastest signal that the connected devices support no matter how bad the cable is and by all accounts the BJC Series-1 is one of the most capable cables anyway.

Particulary if your source is sending YUV 420 8 bit any old cable should pass that (my 8 year old HDMI 1.2 fire hose did it just fine). It's only when you get into RGB 444 2160p60 that cables and cable length becomes critical.

I had a similar issue to yours with the Yamaha RX-A1050/A1060 series where the PS4 kept reporting the TV wasn't 4K HDR capable and it turned out to be a hidden setting on the receiver (HDMI Mode 1 vs Mode 2)

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post #1412 of 2304 Old 01-23-2017, 09:57 PM
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Thanks for the reply CraigAmey!

I would tend to agree with it being a setting but I have further done some more testing and I have plugged a 10' Tera Grand certified premium 4k cable into the projector as well as my previous 30' high speed cable which should at least pass 4:2:0 and the AVM would still not show up as a 4K monitor/projector.

I will post in the Anthem AVM 60 thread and see if anyone has had this issue.

Thanks again for your help!
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post #1413 of 2304 Old 01-24-2017, 07:45 AM
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I hooked up the power on the transmit end which seems to have improved things quite a bit. I believe the only time I'm seeing them now is when I'm transitioning back and forth between the media (BD and Videogames) and PS4 Pro interface. I've had a brief cut-out and a few sparkles when doing that but, overall- a large improvement. I guess this will have to do until something better comes along. This seems to suggest that the HDMI out on the Pioneer is probably contributing to the problem. I already suspected that because my old active cable worked when going directly from the PS4 Pro to the TV.

On a positive note. I just did 7.1.4 atmos for the first time (Mad Max). It was glorious.
I don't want to spread misinformation. USB power on both ends is still inconsistent at best (sparkles, some screen flashes) when in 4K/60Hz/4:4:4 PS4-Pro Menus. Bummed. I'm going to try sourcing the power from the wall on both ends.

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post #1414 of 2304 Old 01-24-2017, 08:21 AM
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I'm always a little leery of purchasing anything off of eBay. You just never know if it's the real deal or not. Good luck.
Yeah, I know. These guys look reputable. Hopefully, they are.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/391555934308...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
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post #1415 of 2304 Old 01-24-2017, 11:01 AM
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Yeah, I know. These guys look reputable. Hopefully, they are.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/391555934308...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Good luck.
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post #1416 of 2304 Old 01-24-2017, 01:02 PM
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Picture of the Box indicates 16 GBs

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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
Good luck.
If you look closely at the back of the Fiber Optic box it indicated the Data rate at 16 Gbps? not 18 Gbps

Last edited by CmiBobby; 01-24-2017 at 01:06 PM. Reason: Spelling correction
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post #1417 of 2304 Old 01-24-2017, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by CmiBobby View Post
If you look closely at the back of the Fiber Optic box it indicated the Data rate at 16 Gbps? not 18 Gbps
Those are the old Celerity cables. Some folks have tried them and they just don't work reliably for 4k, 4:4:4 @60Hz.
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post #1418 of 2304 Old 01-24-2017, 03:42 PM
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Update on my testing of various cables to find some combination that would go 25ft.

Monoprice 20 ft Certified Premium worked great at 2160p60 RGB 444 but too short to be useful. 20ft is the longest cable they make.

Adding a passive female-female connector and a 3ft CP cable introduced some sparkles on black background and very occasional white flashes. (20ft CP + connector + 3ft CP)

Belden BJC Series-1 25ft worked great. What a monster and no problems at all running RGB 444 2160p60 over that length.

Adding a passive female-female connector and a 3ft Certified Premium HDMI from Monoprice also worked fine (25ft BJC + connector + 3ft CP).

Adding a passive female-female connector and a 6ft Certfied Premium HDMI from Monoprice worked but with obvious sparkles noticeable around text when the PS4 switched to dark mode (after a timeout the screen darkens somewhat, no problems seen on a normal screen).

Same as above but using a Belden FE series 4ft Certified cable failed with constant white flashing of half the screen.

Inserting the 4K Blackbird anywhere in the chain with any of these cables failed to even show a screen, with the HDMI constantly trying to resync. As a test I inserted it between two three foot cables going from the PS4 and the receiver and that worked, so the unit itself was working it just isn't good enough to handle a 20ft run between the source and the input to the Blackbird. I also tried a 3ft CP cable to the Blackbird and then to the BJC series-1 and that didn't work either.

Conclusion:

The BJC Series-1 is the best cable out there and has no trouble running RGB 444 2160p60 over 25ft.

The Monoprice Certified Premium cables are pretty damn good and by far the best value for money. Max run length though is 20ft.

Belden FE series was disappointing. Not as good as the Monoprice cables and a lot more expensive.

Monoprice Blackbird. Waste of time, got better results with a simple passive connector than with their active repeater.

Since I really need at least 4ft from the connector to the TV using a connector isn't an option so it's going to be one 25ft run connecting directly at both ends.

Winner: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

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Yamaha RX-A1060 Receiver
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post #1419 of 2304 Old 01-24-2017, 04:40 PM
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Congratulations! You are one of the few who have successfully achieved 4:4:4 @60Hz over 25'. What is the AWG of the BJC cable? I'm surprised a connector between two cables worked but you just illustrated how frustrating this whole issue is. My guess is that someone with the exact same equipment, cables, etc would not be able to do that reliably. At least it does bring some hope.
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post #1420 of 2304 Old 01-24-2017, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
Congratulations! You are one of the few who have successfully achieved 4:4:4 @60Hz over 25'. What is the AWG of the BJC cable? I'm surprised a connector between two cables worked but you just illustrated how frustrating this whole issue is. My guess is that someone with the exact same equipment, cables, etc would not be able to do that reliably. At least it does bring some hope.
It's 23.5 AWG. Quite the fire hose. To be perfectly honest I don't see a lot of difference between RGB 444 and YUV 420 at normal viewing distances but the engineer in me just had to make it work :-) YUV 420 HDR works with just about any cable, including the 35ft Cabernet Active cables I originally used.

I agree that YMMV depending on the source, Yamaha have been making highly rated AV receivers for years and the 60 series Aventage are their top of the line so that probably gives me a head start. I did find that adding the connector to the front end of the Cabernet cables failed to generate a picture but at the back end I could use even the connectors with the little tail with no problem at YUV 420 HDR. Going to RGB 444 is another problem altogether so I'm using a Rite-AV HDMI wall plate there and only at the TV end. I'm happy that it works even though I can't use it (need at least 4ft to get to the TV and could only get 3ft working), that way I know that just the 25ft BJC on it's own will be working comfortably.

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post #1421 of 2304 Old 01-24-2017, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
Congratulations! You are one of the few who have successfully achieved 4:4:4 @60Hz over 25'. What is the AWG of the BJC cable? I'm surprised a connector between two cables worked but you just illustrated how frustrating this whole issue is. My guess is that someone with the exact same equipment, cables, etc would not be able to do that reliably. At least it does bring some hope.
One other point worth noting is that you need to pay attention to the input side of the receiver as well. Even a 4ft length of Monoprice UltraSlim HDMI High Speed cable caused occasional problems until I replaced it with a 3ft Certified Premium cable.

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post #1422 of 2304 Old 01-24-2017, 05:26 PM
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@CraigAmey : You can actually go a whole lot cheaper if you get a KabelDirekt Top Series cable...

I've got a PS4 Pro that has a 2m (6.5ft) AmazonBasics cable running to a Ligawo 3090064 HDR HDMI Switch 5x1 from there I got a 12.5m (41ft) KabelDirekt Top Series cable going to my AVR, from there another 2m (6.5ft) KabelDirekt Top Series cable going to my LG E6... which makes a total of 16.5m (54ft)... I have no issues with getting 2160p60 10bit HDR 4:2:2 from my PS4 Pro, or 2160p60 8bit 4:4:4 from my Windows 10 PC...

btw you obviously don't need the switch for it to work, the 12.5m cable works fine on it's own...

Maybe I'm lucky that the first one I bought worked, but I have seen a few people saying that their cables can go long lengths carrying 18gbps.... If yours doesn't you can always send it back and buy a new one until you get one that works...
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post #1423 of 2304 Old 01-24-2017, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by CraigAmey View Post
Update on my testing of various cables to find some combination that would go 25ft.


Monoprice Blackbird. Waste of time, got better results with a simple passive connector than with their active repeater.

Winner: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
You can not get better results with a passive connector. I don't know why you would say that.
The Blackbird works perfectly here at 35 feet. 444/60 4k 8bit, HD audio from PC to AVR.
You are doing something wrong.
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post #1424 of 2304 Old 01-24-2017, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by CraigAmey View Post
One other point worth noting is that you need to pay attention to the input side of the receiver as well. Even a 4ft length of Monoprice UltraSlim HDMI High Speed cable caused occasional problems until I replaced it with a 3ft Certified Premium cable.
For a passive cable, the input side makes no difference. If the cable is active, it certainly does. As pointed out above, some folks have luck with their cables and some don't. It's all trial and error.
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post #1425 of 2304 Old 01-24-2017, 06:06 PM
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@CraigAmey : You can actually go a whole lot cheaper if you get a KabelDirekt Top Series cable...

I've got a PS4 Pro that has a 2m (6.5ft) AmazonBasics cable running to a Ligawo 3090064 HDR HDMI Switch 5x1 from there I got a 12.5m (41ft) KabelDirekt Top Series cable going to my AVR, from there another 2m (6.5ft) KabelDirekt Top Series cable going to my LG E6... which makes a total of 16.5m (54ft)... I have no issues with getting 2160p60 10bit HDR 4:2:2 from my PS4 Pro, or 2160p60 8bit 4:4:4 from my Windows 10 PC...

btw you obviously don't need the switch for it to work, the 12.5m cable works fine on it's own...

Maybe I'm lucky that the first one I bought worked, but I have seen a few people saying that their cables can go long lengths carrying 18gbps.... If yours doesn't you can always send it back and buy a new one until you get one that works...
So there is no HDR 422 setting for the PS4. The choices are RGB (444) or YUV 420 (8 bit or 10 bit HDR). I suspect you're running YUV 420 in which case even at 10 bit that's only 12Gb/s and the only cable I tried that DIDN'T pass that was an eight year old 20ft HDMI 1.2 cable.

You don't mention what cabling setup you have for your PC but 41ft sounds a bit hard to believe, especially from a cable that isn't even their top of the line series (i.e. Pro), I'd double check your settings on that one.

If your 41ft cable in the PS4 Pro path is RGB 444 capable why aren't you running that? Try switching into RGB mode and see if your cable still works. That's something I know pushes out the full 18Gb/s bandwidth (okay 17.8Gb/s but who's counting) and is the acid test of your cabling and connectors.

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post #1426 of 2304 Old 01-24-2017, 06:09 PM
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For a passive cable, the input side makes no difference. If the cable is active, it certainly does. As pointed out above, some folks have luck with their cables and some don't. It's all trial and error.
By receiver I meant the Yamaha RX-A1060, i.e. the cable that goes from the PS4 Pro to the RX-A1060. They sit on top of each other so there is no distance issue, unlike the TV which is 15ft away from the RX-A1060. My point was that while I was busy focusing on the 25ft cable from the receiver to the TV I almost forgot that at 18Gb/s even 4ft cables can have issues.

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post #1427 of 2304 Old 01-24-2017, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by doctorwizz View Post
You can not get better results with a passive connector. I don't know why you would say that.
The Blackbird works perfectly here at 35 feet. 444/60 4k 8bit, HD audio from PC to AVR.
You are doing something wrong.
You can get better results with a passive connector. I said that because I have a Blackbird and I have a passive connector and one worked and one didn't (Guess which one).

I'm glad it worked for you but it didn't work for me, maybe I got a faulty Blackbird (but I did test it with a shorter run and it worked okay). I'm beginning to wonder if you PC guys are actually running 2160p60 RGB 444 8 bit because I keep seeing that this works on cheap cables. I'll be more impressed when someone can show me that they got it working with a PS4 Pro in 2160p60 RGB mode. I'm also using the long cable between the AVR and the TV, not between the (original) source and the AVR. Maybe the C6 has some issue with its input that doesn't like the output from the Blackbird or vice versa.

I doubt that I'm doing something wrong, it's not rocket science. You plug the hdmi source into the end marked "Input" and the cable from the TV into the end marked "Output". What exactly do you think I might be doing wrong? The connection at the other ends is obviously fine or the passive connector wouldn't work either.

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post #1428 of 2304 Old 01-24-2017, 06:34 PM
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@CraigAmey : The PS4 Pro does have a 4:2:2 mode, but only in HDR....
If you are not in HDR mode, 2160p - RGB will send 4:4:4, but if you are in HDR mode 2160p - RGB will send 4:2:2... you can check video output information, it will display YUV422 when you are in HDR and have RGB selected...

anyways, I of course also have tried 2160p - RGB without HDR, works fine... I just got my PS4 Pro recently, the only games I have been playing are in HDR, that's why I only mentioned the YUV422 HDR mode, because that's the one I can confirm working without issue for several hours... will play some non-HDR games when I have time...

as for sending 2160p60 4:4:4 via my PC, I used chroma subsampling test images (1 and 2) to confirm that I am actually getting 4:4:4, passed everything...
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post #1429 of 2304 Old 01-24-2017, 06:48 PM
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@CraigAmey : The PS4 Pro does have a 4:2:2 mode, but only in HDR....
If you are not in HDR mode, 2160p - RGB will send 4:4:4, but if you are in HDR mode 2160p - RGB will send 4:2:2... you can check video output information, it will display YUV422 when you are in HDR and have RGB selected...

anyways, I of course also have tried 2160p - RGB without HDR, works fine... I just got my PS4 Pro recently, the only games I have been playing are in HDR, that's why I only mentioned the YUV422 HDR mode, because that's the one I can confirm working without issue for several hours... will play some non-HDR games when I have time...

as for sending 2160p60 4:4:4 via my PC, I used chroma subsampling test images (1 and 2) to confirm that I am actually getting 4:4:4, passed everything...
Okay, I was talking about the settings on the Sound and Display menu. There the choices are YUV 420 or RGB. There is no RGB 422 because it wouldn't make sense to limit the bandwidth of some colors but not others so anything other than 444 is always going to be YUV. Games vary and the only one I have is Ratchet and Clank which I believe runs YUV 420, but you're right, there are some that run YUV 422.

Again maybe receiver inputs are just better at picking up a signal than the LG TVs. That's really the only difference I can see with your setup vs mine, and there are certainly a lot of other people in my situation having the same issues. Running a long cable from the AVR to the TV seems to be a much harder problem than running a long cable from a PC or PS4 Pro to a receiver.

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post #1430 of 2304 Old 01-24-2017, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by CraigAmey View Post
By receiver I meant the Yamaha RX-A1060, i.e. the cable that goes from the PS4 Pro to the RX-A1060. They sit on top of each other so there is no distance issue, unlike the TV which is 15ft away from the RX-A1060. My point was that while I was busy focusing on the 25ft cable from the receiver to the TV I almost forgot that at 18Gb/s even 4ft cables can have issues.
An 4' 18Gbps cable is a bit of an overkill. Which certified 18Gbps cable did you get? Certified "at" 18Gbps or "up to 18Gbps"?
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post #1431 of 2304 Old 01-24-2017, 07:18 PM
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An 4' 18Gbps cable is a bit of an overkill. Which certified 18Gbps cable did you get? Certified "at" 18Gbps or "up to 18Gbps"?
Monoprice 18Gb/s Certified Premium 3ft. I was surprised, like you implied I thought just about anything would work at that distance. Monoprice UltraSlim 4ft High Speed passive were the ones that didn't work.

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post #1432 of 2304 Old 01-24-2017, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by CraigAmey View Post
Again maybe receiver inputs are just better at picking up a signal than the LG TVs. That's really the only difference I can see with your setup vs mine, and there are certainly a lot of other people in my situation having the same issues. Running a long cable from the AVR to the TV seems to be a much harder problem than running a long cable from a PC or PS4 Pro to a receiver.
When I was testing, I also tried connecting the 41ft cable to the TV directly, also worked without issue....

again, maybe I'm just lucky, but the KabelDirekt Cables are definitely worth a try... btw the Top and Pro series are the same cables, only difference is that the Pro series is Nylon braided..
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post #1433 of 2304 Old 01-25-2017, 09:13 AM
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You can get better results with a passive connector. I said that because I have a Blackbird and I have a passive connector and one worked and one didn't (Guess which one).

I'm glad it worked for you but it didn't work for me, maybe I got a faulty Blackbird (but I did test it with a shorter run and it worked okay). I'm beginning to wonder if you PC guys are actually running 2160p60 RGB 444 8 bit because I keep seeing that this works on cheap cables. I'll be more impressed when someone can show me that they got it working with a PS4 Pro in 2160p60 RGB mode. I'm also using the long cable between the AVR and the TV, not between the (original) source and the AVR. Maybe the C6 has some issue with its input that doesn't like the output from the Blackbird or vice versa.

I doubt that I'm doing something wrong, it's not rocket science. You plug the hdmi source into the end marked "Input" and the cable from the TV into the end marked "Output". What exactly do you think I might be doing wrong? The connection at the other ends is obviously fine or the passive connector wouldn't work either.
I had the exact same results as you with the Blackbird. And, yeah, it is next to impossible to do something wrong. I could put a 6 ft cable between the source and the blackbird and get no signal. Switch it around and have a longer run feed the blackbird with a shorter cable going from the blackbird to the display and it might work. Having a blackbird in the chain with two smaller cables could not even reproduce the results I get with one 30ft Cabernet or Luxe Monoprice cable. It is odd that given the promised performance of the Blackbird it can't extend a 4K signal by 6ft.

Despite that, I am tempted to try two 15' cables with the blackbird - I have only tried it with 25' + 6'.
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post #1434 of 2304 Old 01-25-2017, 04:29 PM
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My Blackbird works perfectly between 2 KabelDirect Pros. 15' and 20'. Both of those can do perfect 444/60 4K when used alone connected directly to the TV from PC.
I have never tested it with shorter cables, mixing cable brands, or tested using different 4K sources. Like a Nvidia Sheild. Or putting the Blackbird between the AVR out and the TV using various lengths and or brands.
Maybe the BB doesn't work too well between shorter cables, different sources, or different brands.
I have some MP certified cables somewhere. I will dig them out for testing tomorrow.
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post #1435 of 2304 Old 01-25-2017, 04:46 PM
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^^^^^ It could be that both of those cables are under that "magical" 25' length so they in theory would work fine on their own, and with the addition of the BB between them there's no issue.
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post #1436 of 2304 Old 01-25-2017, 05:12 PM
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^^^^^ It could be that both of those cables are under that "magical" 25' length so they in theory would work fine on their own, and with the addition of the BB between them there's no issue.
I completely agree.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doctorwizz View Post
My Blackbird works perfectly between 2 KabelDirect Pros. 15' and 20'. Both of those can do perfect 444/60 4K when used alone connected directly to the TV from PC.
I have never tested it with shorter cables, mixing cable brands, or tested using different 4K sources. Like a Nvidia Sheild. Or putting the Blackbird between the AVR out and the TV using various lengths and or brands.
Maybe the BB doesn't work too well between shorter cables, different sources, or different brands.
I have some MP certified cables somewhere. I will dig them out for testing tomorrow.
I had tried the BB between a 10' MP Certified cable and a 20' MP certified cable and it wouldn't work. I tried it going straight from the source and after the AVR. The downside with testing shorter cable lengths is that I can't really return them without paying return shipping (which ends up being almost as much as the cost of the cables) since the shorter cables would work fine on their own. I have no problem trying/returning the longer cables since they claim they should work - not sure why they still make that claim since we have yet to hear of someone having success. Are there really that few people trying to pull this off?

It may be that there are some Blackbirds with issues, too, although I'd hope that is unlikely.

I'm going to end up with credit with Monoprice, so the only thing I have left to try is the 15' MP Certified -> Blackbird -> 15' MP Certified and hope that the 20' length is what killed it before. I'm not very optimistic, though.
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Originally Posted by BrandonJF View Post
I had tried the BB between a 10' MP Certified cable and a 20' MP certified cable and it wouldn't work. I tried it going straight from the source and after the AVR. The downside with testing shorter cable lengths is that I can't really return them without paying return shipping (which ends up being almost as much as the cost of the cables) since the shorter cables would work fine on their own. I have no problem trying/returning the longer cables since they claim they should work - not sure why they still make that claim since we have yet to hear of someone having success. Are there really that few people trying to pull this off?

It may be that there are some Blackbirds with issues, too, although I'd hope that is unlikely.

I'm going to end up with credit with Monoprice, so the only thing I have left to try is the 15' MP Certified -> Blackbird -> 15' MP Certified and hope that the 20' length is what killed it before. I'm not very optimistic, though.
What was the 4K source?
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Those are the old Celerity cables. Some folks have tried them and they just don't work reliably for 4k, 4:4:4 @60Hz.
Damn it! Thanks for pointing that out. Back the drawing board...

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Conclusion:

The BJC Series-1 is the best cable out there and has no trouble running RGB 444 2160p60 over 25ft.
Am I wasting my time trying this cable at 35 ft?
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Damn it! Thanks for pointing that out. Back the drawing board...



Am I wasting my time trying this cable at 35 ft?
There really isn't such a thing as "the best cable out there' because that implies that it will work for everyone regardless of the devices, setup ,etc. All you can do is try. It may work well for you, just don't get your expectations too high.
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