HDMI cables that support 4K@60Hz, 4:4:4 chroma, and Deep Color? - Page 51 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 343Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1501 of 2304 Old 02-03-2017, 10:25 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 76
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Probably also worth mentioning here that this whole thing is an academic exercise, since humans can't see the difference between RGB 444 and YUV 420 at normal viewing distances. I've done the experiment and I couldn't tell the difference 10ft away from my 65" 4K screen.

LG OLED65C6P TV
LG AN-MR700 Remote
Yamaha RX-A1060 Receiver
Samsung UBD-K8500 4K Bluray Player
Sony PS4-Pro
Xfinity X1
CraigAmey is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1502 of 2304 Old 02-03-2017, 12:14 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigAmey View Post
Probably also worth mentioning here that this whole thing is an academic exercise, since humans can't see the difference between RGB 444 and YUV 420 at normal viewing distances. I've done the experiment and I couldn't tell the difference 10ft away from my 65" 4K screen.
yes that true.....your spot on there

the thing is d..... i want my setup to be able to do max possible res and rgb 10/12 bit colour as possible....as this is the way forward for gaming....(imagine 4k rgb @ 120hz 10/12 bit proper hdr gaming from a high end pc....(gtx 1080 gpu can do these 10/12 bit colours).....the only prob that will exist is if your 4k tv has not got a 10/12 bit panel.....some early 4k tvs are only 8bit.....so people with those wont need to upgrade to 2.1 cables....as there tv panels are limited to 8 bit.....my tv is 10 bit....so that's my limit......so i will need these new hdmi 2.1 certified cables to get full potential from my equip......and with that 48gbits high speed bandwidth it will allow us a hell of alot more options.....and future-proof...especially if you are burying your cables under floors, in walls ect.....i don't think i will even put the cables in conduit as these will be future proof for 8k also......thats if i ever go to 8k....which i doubt it haha

so its really all about finding out what your devices like tvs, uhd blu ray players ect can handle......

just one more thing to add regarding hdr.....there are currently 3 out there....with rumors of a 4th on the way....(reminds me of the old vhs v betamax, hd dvd v blu ray)....madness how all manufactures like sony, lg, panasonic....all trying to out do each other constantly every year.........but this is a whole other ball game....dolby are saying that 10 bit panels wont be able to handle dolby vision properly ...(downscale it alright)....and then have to wait for a firmware update for it....that is if sony agrees to pay a licensee fee to use there dolby vision hdr.......sony are banking on there hdr10 as this is free to use and that way they hope to gain market control....sure we wait and see what happens over the next year.......personally dolby vision is the best in my opinion....now why didnt i wait another year before i bought my tv haha....but sure even if i had of waited for a 12bit panel...to get dolby vision...sure sony, lg, pan....will come up with something new or completely different at ces 2018...... to keep there sales going......we will never have the latest tech no matter what devices we buy....as all tech companies just drip feed us the tech....so they can keep lining there pockets for years to come.....simple answer to this is....just set your budget and specs...and thats it.....i think 4k will be the limit for me ....nxt 10 years anyway.....haha
rayh271 is offline  
post #1503 of 2304 Old 02-03-2017, 01:06 PM
Newbie
 
Ginosius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 12
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I see, thanks for all the explanation.

I can wait for the new hdmi 2.1 spec which will require cables to do more than 18gbit/s.
But what about a 5 or 6 meter hdmi cable -with- removable heads that does 4k 60fps @10bit color instead of 12?
That would be 4:4:2 right?

Does such cable exist?
Ginosius is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1504 of 2304 Old 02-03-2017, 01:49 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Joe Fernand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Scotland, UK
Posts: 2,865
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 629 Post(s)
Liked: 345
'and also these should be good for long runs too' - all the way out to 2m (6') according to HDMI.org!

Joe

Octava Inc. Multi-cast HD over LAN solutions.

RuiPro UK and EU Sales and Support

The Media Factory. Residential and Commercial systems.
Joe Fernand is offline  
post #1505 of 2304 Old 02-03-2017, 03:06 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 76
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginosius View Post
I see, thanks for all the explanation.

I can wait for the new hdmi 2.1 spec which will require cables to do more than 18gbit/s.
But what about a 5 or 6 meter hdmi cable -with- removable heads that does 4k 60fps @10bit color instead of 12?
That would be 4:4:2 right?

Does such cable exist?
10 Bit HDR is always YUV 420 or YUV 422. 4K Blurays are all YUV 420 so that only requires 12Gb/s and most modern cables will do that at that length. I originally put in Monoprice Cabernet 35ft active cables and they handle 12Gb/s fine, only failed when I tried to pass RGB 444.

There is no such standard as 442 that I know of. 422 is full resolution luminance, full horizontal resolution chrominance, half vertical resolution chrominance. 420 is full, half, half. 444 is typically RGB or YCbCr, whereas 420 and 422 are YUV or YCbCr because it doesn't make any sense to do that with RGB (i.e. Red, Green and Blue at different resolutions). It works for YUV as our eyes have more resolution for Luminance (rods) than Chrominance (cones).

LG OLED65C6P TV
LG AN-MR700 Remote
Yamaha RX-A1060 Receiver
Samsung UBD-K8500 4K Bluray Player
Sony PS4-Pro
Xfinity X1
CraigAmey is offline  
post #1506 of 2304 Old 02-03-2017, 03:53 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 2
not sure about removable heads on hdmi leads.....but i did see some sort of fibre optic cable for long runs....100m and so on....but i do remember they were very expensive...like $350/400 per roll...if i come across them again i will post them on here

current hdmi leads are very thick....and i only assume these new 2.1 cables will be thicker......maybe some brand manufacturers will take this into consideration.....and try make them as thin as possible....handy for people who have pre-installed conduit in there setups

but as long as these new 2.1cables are certified @ 48gbits.....dont think you will need to replace those for maybe 20 years.....4k, 8k, and possibly 10k.....as i say future proof....so well worth the extra money.....because i guarantee these new cables wont be cheap when first come out......

another thing i was looking into was running the 4k cables over long distance.....using hdmi converters.....and cat 6 cable....

i curentlt have 2x 10m hdmi and 2 x 50 meters of cat 6 cable running from my house all the way to games room at the end of my back garden.......its capable of passing full hd 1080.....this is how i done it

10m hdmi lead....connected from satellite hd box to hdmi converter...(which is in house)....then 2 runs of cat 6 50m cable... running from the converter (the cat 6 cables are buried in pipe under the garden)....then to an other converter..(in games room)...then 10m hdmi lead out from this converter and connected directly to tv.....and all full hd.....this is great for watching sport in games room from the satellite without have to bring it out every time.....i even can switch stations using my iphone,....because i have wi fi out there also

this would be great if it was possible in 4k.....but so far i dont think it is.....think about it if i am using 2 cat 6 for hd.....i would probably need 8 for 4k.....

but you never know could be possible soon
rayh271 is offline  
post #1507 of 2304 Old 02-03-2017, 06:45 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Otto Pylot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bull Mountain, OR
Posts: 15,204
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3509 Post(s)
Liked: 2536
^^^^^^ nobody has seen the new cables that are capable of transmitting HDMI 2.1 signals but they will more than likely be limited to about 6', and be expensive. You will also need hardware that is capable of HDMI 2.1. Some of the protocols in HDMI 2.1 can be handled by the current set of HDMI chipsets but for full HDMI 2.1 compliance newer hardware will probably be necessary. A fiber optic cable with removeabe/upgradeable termination connectors is probably going to be the way to go for long runs, at least for the foreseeable future. Solid core CAT-6a (non-CCS and NOT CAT-6 ethernet patch cable) with HDBT termination is another option. The removable termination is important especially if it is active termination because the chipsets required can be upgraded to handle the error correction, timing, etc necessary for the newer video standards while leaving the cable in place.

All you can do is run your cables in-conduit, with pull strings, so you can easily upgrade your connection options as they become necessary, and they will. Using conduit is really the only way to "future proof" your connectivity. 1080p is not a problem at this point in time with what you have but 4k, 4:4:4 @60Hz over about 20' is a problem now and is only going to be more difficult with what HDMI 2.1 promises to offer.
rayh271 likes this.
Otto Pylot is offline  
post #1508 of 2304 Old 02-04-2017, 01:40 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Joe Fernand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Scotland, UK
Posts: 2,865
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 629 Post(s)
Liked: 345
And lets get into the habit of calling them '48G' cables early on and drop the reference to HDMI Version numbers - will save a million and one posts over the next couple of years

http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_1/index.aspx

Joe
Ratman, 65Goat, Otto Pylot and 1 others like this.

Octava Inc. Multi-cast HD over LAN solutions.

RuiPro UK and EU Sales and Support

The Media Factory. Residential and Commercial systems.
Joe Fernand is offline  
post #1509 of 2304 Old 02-05-2017, 10:20 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
golffnutt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Southeast Tennessee
Posts: 1,702
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 141 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Unhappy 4K Cable Issue With New TV, Receiver, and 4K Player

I am really hoping one or more of you can help me, I am about to pull my hair out. Here's my equipment:

Samsung UN5KS9500F - 65" TV
Denon X6200W Receiver (1 model down form their flagship model) Will pass 4K signal
Oppo 203 4K Player

My problem is this. I have to have a 35' cable run from TV to Receiver. I have purchased the Luxe Series cable from Monoprice for this run as their ad says it will do 4K50hz and 60hz up to 50'. Well unfortunately that's just not true. I can not get more than 4K24hz when playing a 4K movie.

There is a setting on my TV called "HDMI UHD Color". When I turn it on the picture goes out and the audio goes on and off. When I turn it back off, picture returns but only at 4k24hz 8 bits. I can't get 50 or 60hz or 10-12 bits no matter what I do. Is there a cable out there that will work in my situation (35' run)? Please help me if you can, I have run out of things to try. Thank you SO MUCH for your help and advice. Have a wonderful day and evening.

Thank you. Golffnutt "GO DAWGS" !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Panasonic PT-AE 8000U Projector with 10' Screen // Samsung 65" 4K TV UN65KS9500F // Denon X6200W Receiver // Oppo 203 4K Player // Pioneer Elite BDP-51FD Blu-Ray Player (Great CD Player and Excellent Blu-Ray Player) // All PSB Speakers in my 9.2 speaker setup with 2ea. M&K 12" Subs // Panamax Surge Protection // 35' Bluerigger Cable (18gbps band width, 60 frame rate, and 4:4:4 capable) and 3 ea Monoprice 6' Premium Certified Cables
golffnutt is offline  
post #1510 of 2304 Old 02-05-2017, 10:32 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Otto Pylot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bull Mountain, OR
Posts: 15,204
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3509 Post(s)
Liked: 2536
^^^^ the simple answer would be, at 35', consider a fiber optic cable (Celerity) and see if that works. Also be mindful of bend radius because you didn't mention if your cable run is basically straight or it's running in-wall.
Otto Pylot is offline  
post #1511 of 2304 Old 02-05-2017, 11:03 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ratman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Collingswood, N.J.
Posts: 19,444
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2399 Post(s)
Liked: 2239
How long is the cable run from the Oppo to the receiver?
What spec/make/model cable?
Ratman is online now  
post #1512 of 2304 Old 02-05-2017, 11:11 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
golffnutt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Southeast Tennessee
Posts: 1,702
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 141 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
^^^^ the simple answer would be, at 35', consider a fiber optic cable (Celerity) and see if that works. Also be mindful of bend radius because you didn't mention if your cable run is basically straight or it's running in-wall.
Thank you Otto for that info. My run is basically straight under the carpet from TV to Receiver. Only bend is from floor to TV and floor to Receiver.

Where could I find the Celerity optic cable you recommended? Thanks again for your help.

Thank you. Golffnutt "GO DAWGS" !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Panasonic PT-AE 8000U Projector with 10' Screen // Samsung 65" 4K TV UN65KS9500F // Denon X6200W Receiver // Oppo 203 4K Player // Pioneer Elite BDP-51FD Blu-Ray Player (Great CD Player and Excellent Blu-Ray Player) // All PSB Speakers in my 9.2 speaker setup with 2ea. M&K 12" Subs // Panamax Surge Protection // 35' Bluerigger Cable (18gbps band width, 60 frame rate, and 4:4:4 capable) and 3 ea Monoprice 6' Premium Certified Cables
golffnutt is offline  
post #1513 of 2304 Old 02-05-2017, 11:14 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
golffnutt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Southeast Tennessee
Posts: 1,702
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 141 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
How long is the cable run from the Oppo to the receiver?
What spec/make/model cable?
Thank you Ratman for the reply.

6' from Oppo to Receiver. Just bought the best that Monoprice has, the "Ultra Slim Active." series, product ID number, 13590. Suppose to be their best 4K 60hz model cable.

Thank you. Golffnutt "GO DAWGS" !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Panasonic PT-AE 8000U Projector with 10' Screen // Samsung 65" 4K TV UN65KS9500F // Denon X6200W Receiver // Oppo 203 4K Player // Pioneer Elite BDP-51FD Blu-Ray Player (Great CD Player and Excellent Blu-Ray Player) // All PSB Speakers in my 9.2 speaker setup with 2ea. M&K 12" Subs // Panamax Surge Protection // 35' Bluerigger Cable (18gbps band width, 60 frame rate, and 4:4:4 capable) and 3 ea Monoprice 6' Premium Certified Cables
golffnutt is offline  
post #1514 of 2304 Old 02-05-2017, 12:12 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Otto Pylot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bull Mountain, OR
Posts: 15,204
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3509 Post(s)
Liked: 2536
Quote:
Originally Posted by golffnutt View Post
Thank you Otto for that info. My run is basically straight under the carpet from TV to Receiver. Only bend is from floor to TV and floor to Receiver.

Where could I find the Celerity optic cable you recommended? Thanks again for your help.
You can Google Celerity for either their website or vendors who carry them. The cables are not cheap. If you run your cables underneath the carpet I assume you have them placed in an area that is out of the way and not stepped on.
Otto Pylot is offline  
post #1515 of 2304 Old 02-06-2017, 08:11 AM
Newbie
 
Ginosius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 12
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 10
This hdmi over fibre cable seems to be able to do the full 4K 60FPS @ 4:4:4 with ARC.
http://shop.celeritytek.com/p/ct-fiber-optic-hdmi-60

It's 400 bucks though...
Ginosius is offline  
post #1516 of 2304 Old 02-06-2017, 10:12 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Joe Fernand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Scotland, UK
Posts: 2,865
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 629 Post(s)
Liked: 345
'It's 400 bucks though...' - the Celerity Tech cables are what many folk are using/recommending, the price is what you have to pay if you want to pass the full range signal over a long cable.

Joe

Octava Inc. Multi-cast HD over LAN solutions.

RuiPro UK and EU Sales and Support

The Media Factory. Residential and Commercial systems.
Joe Fernand is offline  
post #1517 of 2304 Old 02-06-2017, 10:13 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 76
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by golffnutt View Post
Thank you Ratman for the reply.

6' from Oppo to Receiver. Just bought the best that Monoprice has, the "Ultra Slim Active." series, product ID number, 13590. Suppose to be their best 4K 60hz model cable.
It sounds like you're trying to run RGB 444 as the Luxe cable should be capable of 4K60 HDR with YUV 420 which is what most movies are formatted in. Check the settings on the Oppo to make sure you're not trying to output RGB 444 (as it's unnecessary here). If that is what you want to do there are a couple of things you need to know.

1. 4K60 HDR is only possible with YUV 420 as RGB 444 10 bit exceeds the HDMI spec. 4K60 HDR (10 bit) YUV 420 required about 12Gb/s and most cables can do that. I use 35ft Cabernet Active cables and they handle it fine.

2. The Ultra Slim Active will not pass 4K60 RGB 444 (17.8Gb/s) even at 6ft, nor will the passive Ultra Slim (I've tried). The only Monoprice cables that will do that are the Certified Premium cables and they'll handle it up to 20ft.

3. At 35ft your only option for 4K60 RGB 444 is the Belden BJC Series-1 but that cable is thick enough it's going to create a lump under your carpet :-)

I have a working setup that passes 4K60 RGB 444 through the wall via a 25 ft BJC Series-1 to a RiteAV double sided HDMI wallplate and then to a 5ft Monster Black Platinum. For the short run a Monoprice CP 6ft and Rocketfish 4ft also worked (many tried and failed).

LG OLED65C6P TV
LG AN-MR700 Remote
Yamaha RX-A1060 Receiver
Samsung UBD-K8500 4K Bluray Player
Sony PS4-Pro
Xfinity X1
CraigAmey is offline  
post #1518 of 2304 Old 02-06-2017, 10:38 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
golffnutt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Southeast Tennessee
Posts: 1,702
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 141 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginosius View Post
This hdmi over fibre cable seems to be able to do the full 4K 60FPS @ 4:4:4 with ARC.
http://shop.celeritytek.com/p/ct-fiber-optic-hdmi-60

It's 400 bucks though...
Thank you Gino for the reply. It should take me to the moon for that price. This whole 4K subject is making me sick, players not working correctly, no reasonably priced cables to take advantage of the 4K advantages, certain sattellite companies ripping their customers off by offering only 4K channels that are pay per view to watch on TV, one company has 4 each 4K channels, three of which are PPV, just sickening to me, wished I had never bought a new receiver, player, and TV. Guarantee you it won't happen again by this old man.

Thank you. Golffnutt "GO DAWGS" !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Panasonic PT-AE 8000U Projector with 10' Screen // Samsung 65" 4K TV UN65KS9500F // Denon X6200W Receiver // Oppo 203 4K Player // Pioneer Elite BDP-51FD Blu-Ray Player (Great CD Player and Excellent Blu-Ray Player) // All PSB Speakers in my 9.2 speaker setup with 2ea. M&K 12" Subs // Panamax Surge Protection // 35' Bluerigger Cable (18gbps band width, 60 frame rate, and 4:4:4 capable) and 3 ea Monoprice 6' Premium Certified Cables

Last edited by golffnutt; 02-06-2017 at 10:42 AM.
golffnutt is offline  
post #1519 of 2304 Old 02-06-2017, 10:52 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Joe Fernand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Scotland, UK
Posts: 2,865
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 629 Post(s)
Liked: 345
Early adopter always take a hit in terms of hassle and cost - long HDMI cables were just as costly in the early days of HDMI.

Joe

PS Golf - now there is a low cost hobby!!!

Octava Inc. Multi-cast HD over LAN solutions.

RuiPro UK and EU Sales and Support

The Media Factory. Residential and Commercial systems.
Joe Fernand is offline  
post #1520 of 2304 Old 02-06-2017, 11:10 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
golffnutt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Southeast Tennessee
Posts: 1,702
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 141 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigAmey View Post
It sounds like you're trying to run RGB 444 as the Luxe cable should be capable of 4K60 HDR with YUV 420 which is what most movies are formatted in. Check the settings on the Oppo to make sure you're not trying to output RGB 444 (as it's unnecessary here). If that is what you want to do there are a couple of things you need to know.

1. 4K60 HDR is only possible with YUV 420 as RGB 444 10 bit exceeds the HDMI spec. 4K60 HDR (10 bit) YUV 420 required about 12Gb/s and most cables can do that. I use 35ft Cabernet Active cables and they handle it fine.

2. The Ultra Slim Active will not pass 4K60 RGB 444 (17.8Gb/s) even at 6ft, nor will the passive Ultra Slim (I've tried). The only Monoprice cables that will do that are the Certified Premium cables and they'll handle it up to 20ft.

3. At 35ft your only option for 4K60 RGB 444 is the Belden BJC Series-1 but that cable is thick enough it's going to create a lump under your carpet :-)

I have a working setup that passes 4K60 RGB 444 through the wall via a 25 ft BJC Series-1 to a RiteAV double sided HDMI wallplate and then to a 5ft Monster Black Platinum. For the short run a Monoprice CP 6ft and Rocketfish 4ft also worked (many tried and failed).
Thanks Craig for that detailed reply. Because of the way my family room is laid out I can not run 4k60 RGB 444 through the wall. I do have 444 turned off on the Oppo and still I can only get 24hz 8 bits. Maybe I need to return my Luxe 35' cable for the 35' Cabernet cables? Also need to return the 6' Ultra Slim Active cables for the Monoprice CP cables right? Will these 2 things help you think? What is YUV420? I am not educated enough on all this stuff to know that unfortunately.

Thank you. Golffnutt "GO DAWGS" !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Panasonic PT-AE 8000U Projector with 10' Screen // Samsung 65" 4K TV UN65KS9500F // Denon X6200W Receiver // Oppo 203 4K Player // Pioneer Elite BDP-51FD Blu-Ray Player (Great CD Player and Excellent Blu-Ray Player) // All PSB Speakers in my 9.2 speaker setup with 2ea. M&K 12" Subs // Panamax Surge Protection // 35' Bluerigger Cable (18gbps band width, 60 frame rate, and 4:4:4 capable) and 3 ea Monoprice 6' Premium Certified Cables
golffnutt is offline  
post #1521 of 2304 Old 02-06-2017, 01:39 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 76
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by golffnutt View Post
Thanks Craig for that detailed reply. Because of the way my family room is laid out I can not run 4k60 RGB 444 through the wall. I do have 444 turned off on the Oppo and still I can only get 24hz 8 bits. Maybe I need to return my Luxe 35' cable for the 35' Cabernet cables? Also need to return the 6' Ultra Slim Active cables for the Monoprice CP cables right? Will these 2 things help you think? What is YUV420? I am not educated enough on all this stuff to know that unfortunately.
Yes, for devices that output RGB 444 (Samsung 4K Bluray player, PS4 Pro) I use 3ft CP cables that I bought to replace 4ft Ultraslim cables. The Ultraslim cables sort of worked but I was getting occasional white flashes. For the Wii U, PS3, Oppo BDP-83 and the X1 I use Ultraslim cables, as those boxes only output 1080p.

YUV420 basically means the color information is displayed at half resolution vertically and horizontally compared to the luminance information. The relevance to cabling is that it reduces the number of pixels that need to be transmitted and as such reduces the required bandwidth. Bluray disks also use this format to reduce the size of the movies on disk.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma...ems_and_ratios

The relative bandwidth required is proportional to the number of pixels sent. YUV420 = 4 + 2 + 0 = 6 therefore requires half the bandwidth of RGB 444 = 4 + 4 + 4 = 12. HDR requires 10 bits per pixel so requires 10/8 more bandwidth than SDR or regular 8 bit video. The respective bandwidths at 4K60 are shown here.

http://i.imgur.com/lxCMDwG.jpg

2160p60 YUV420 8.91Gb/s
2160p60 YUV420 HDR 11.1Gb/s
2160p60 RGB444 17.8Gb/s

If a newer cable like the Luxe couldn't do 11.1Gb/s I'd return it, it should be able to. Very, very few cables can do 17.8Gb/s even though they all claim to be able to and the longer you need the fewer choices there are. Monoprice Certified Premium are good up to 20ft and they're by far the cheapest out there. Stay away from the premium priced brands (Monster, Audioquest etc. as they are mostly rubbish).

If you really need 35ft I'd definitely try the Cabernet cables as they are relatively inexpensive and I have two running through my walls that pass 11.1Gb/s no problems. They definitely won't work at 17.8Gb/s so I'm using an additional 25ft Belden Series-1 for the main feed from the receiver.

Someone else posted that they were trying to get a 35ft run to pass RGB 444 and the Belden Series-1 did the trick. That's your last resort because the cable is going to cost you over $100 and it is truly a massive cable.

LG OLED65C6P TV
LG AN-MR700 Remote
Yamaha RX-A1060 Receiver
Samsung UBD-K8500 4K Bluray Player
Sony PS4-Pro
Xfinity X1
CraigAmey is offline  
post #1522 of 2304 Old 02-06-2017, 06:08 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
golffnutt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Southeast Tennessee
Posts: 1,702
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 141 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Thanks again Craig. I will try to get Monoprice to take the Lux and Ultra Slim cables back and I will order the Cabernet and Premium CL cables and see if that works. Really appreciate your time and feedback on this problem. I will let you and the AVSForum audience if the new cables work better than what I have now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigAmey View Post
Yes, for devices that output RGB 444 (Samsung 4K Bluray player, PS4 Pro) I use 3ft CP cables that I bought to replace 4ft Ultraslim cables. The Ultraslim cables sort of worked but I was getting occasional white flashes. For the Wii U, PS3, Oppo BDP-83 and the X1 I use Ultraslim cables, as those boxes only output 1080p.

YUV420 basically means the color information is displayed at half resolution vertically and horizontally compared to the luminance information. The relevance to cabling is that it reduces the number of pixels that need to be transmitted and as such reduces the required bandwidth. Bluray disks also use this format to reduce the size of the movies on disk.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma...ems_and_ratios

The relative bandwidth required is proportional to the number of pixels sent. YUV420 = 4 + 2 + 0 = 6 therefore requires half the bandwidth of RGB 444 = 4 + 4 + 4 = 12. HDR requires 10 bits per pixel so requires 10/8 more bandwidth than SDR or regular 8 bit video. The respective bandwidths at 4K60 are shown here.

http://i.imgur.com/lxCMDwG.jpg

2160p60 YUV420 8.91Gb/s
2160p60 YUV420 HDR 11.1Gb/s
2160p60 RGB444 17.8Gb/s

If a newer cable like the Luxe couldn't do 11.1Gb/s I'd return it, it should be able to. Very, very few cables can do 17.8Gb/s even though they all claim to be able to and the longer you need the fewer choices there are. Monoprice Certified Premium are good up to 20ft and they're by far the cheapest out there. Stay away from the premium priced brands (Monster, Audioquest etc. as they are mostly rubbish).

If you really need 35ft I'd definitely try the Cabernet cables as they are relatively inexpensive and I have two running through my walls that pass 11.1Gb/s no problems. They definitely won't work at 17.8Gb/s so I'm using an additional 25ft Belden Series-1 for the main feed from the receiver.

Someone else posted that they were trying to get a 35ft run to pass RGB 444 and the Belden Series-1 did the trick. That's your last resort because the cable is going to cost you over $100 and it is truly a massive cable.

Thank you. Golffnutt "GO DAWGS" !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Panasonic PT-AE 8000U Projector with 10' Screen // Samsung 65" 4K TV UN65KS9500F // Denon X6200W Receiver // Oppo 203 4K Player // Pioneer Elite BDP-51FD Blu-Ray Player (Great CD Player and Excellent Blu-Ray Player) // All PSB Speakers in my 9.2 speaker setup with 2ea. M&K 12" Subs // Panamax Surge Protection // 35' Bluerigger Cable (18gbps band width, 60 frame rate, and 4:4:4 capable) and 3 ea Monoprice 6' Premium Certified Cables
golffnutt is offline  
post #1523 of 2304 Old 02-07-2017, 08:35 AM
Member
 
Keith Murray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Philomath, Oregon
Posts: 127
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigAmey View Post
It sounds like you're trying to run RGB 444 as the Luxe cable should be capable of 4K60 HDR with YUV 420 which is what most movies are formatted in. Check the settings on the Oppo to make sure you're not trying to output RGB 444 (as it's unnecessary here). If that is what you want to do there are a couple of things you need to know.

1. 4K60 HDR is only possible with YUV 420 as RGB 444 10 bit exceeds the HDMI spec. 4K60 HDR (10 bit) YUV 420 required about 12Gb/s and most cables can do that. I use 35ft Cabernet Active cables and they handle it fine.

2. The Ultra Slim Active will not pass 4K60 RGB 444 (17.8Gb/s) even at 6ft, nor will the passive Ultra Slim (I've tried). The only Monoprice cables that will do that are the Certified Premium cables and they'll handle it up to 20ft.

3. At 35ft your only option for 4K60 RGB 444 is the Belden BJC Series-1 but that cable is thick enough it's going to create a lump under your carpet :-)

I have a working setup that passes 4K60 RGB 444 through the wall via a 25 ft BJC Series-1 to a RiteAV double sided HDMI wallplate and then to a 5ft Monster Black Platinum. For the short run a Monoprice CP 6ft and Rocketfish 4ft also worked (many tried and failed).
I am having luck with my setup with all Monoprice certified premium cables. I have a PS4 Pro (4k RGB), Samsung UHD player (4k RGB menus, YUV HDR movies), both connected to my Denon 920 with 6' cables.

From the Denon to my JVC 4k projector I have the following: 15' cable -> Blackbird -> 15' cable.

This has been working very reliably with just a few minor hiccups when signal sources change.

Before this, I tried all kinds of things, including Cabernet, Luxe and the slim run optical from Monoprice. None worked (the Luxe was almost usable but a little unsteady).

Your mileage WILL vary and all you can do at this point is experiment. What works for me (and others) may not work for you.

It's been a pretty frustrating ride to get a good 4k signal over distance.

But it's worth it eh?
Keith Murray is offline  
post #1524 of 2304 Old 02-07-2017, 01:02 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
golffnutt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Southeast Tennessee
Posts: 1,702
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 141 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Thumbs up

Thanks Keith for the reply and info. Couple of quick questions. You stated you are using all Monoprice certified premium cables yet you also say you are using a cable called "Blackbird". I can't find a cable called "Blackbird" on the Monoprice website?

Secondly since the certified premium cables, according to some folks on this forum, are pretty hefty are you having any problem with them weighing down your connections and trying to pull out of the HDMI socket on the back of your components?

I am going to try and return my Ultra Slim cables and purchase the premium cables to the back of my components, short runs, 4-6' before returning my LUX 35" cable. Maybe my short cables are the problem and the LUX is OK. If that doesn't work then I am going to return the LUX and purchase the Cabernet and see if that works as some have suggested here on this forum. At any rate thanks for the info. Glad yours is working good, hopefully I will get there before the end of this year????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Murray View Post
I am having luck with my setup with all Monoprice certified premium cables. I have a PS4 Pro (4k RGB), Samsung UHD player (4k RGB menus, YUV HDR movies), both connected to my Denon 920 with 6' cables.

From the Denon to my JVC 4k projector I have the following: 15' cable -> Blackbird -> 15' cable.

This has been working very reliably with just a few minor hiccups when signal sources change.

Before this, I tried all kinds of things, including Cabernet, Luxe and the slim run optical from Monoprice. None worked (the Luxe was almost usable but a little unsteady).

Your mileage WILL vary and all you can do at this point is experiment. What works for me (and others) may not work for you.

It's been a pretty frustrating ride to get a good 4k signal over distance.

But it's worth it eh?

Thank you. Golffnutt "GO DAWGS" !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Panasonic PT-AE 8000U Projector with 10' Screen // Samsung 65" 4K TV UN65KS9500F // Denon X6200W Receiver // Oppo 203 4K Player // Pioneer Elite BDP-51FD Blu-Ray Player (Great CD Player and Excellent Blu-Ray Player) // All PSB Speakers in my 9.2 speaker setup with 2ea. M&K 12" Subs // Panamax Surge Protection // 35' Bluerigger Cable (18gbps band width, 60 frame rate, and 4:4:4 capable) and 3 ea Monoprice 6' Premium Certified Cables
golffnutt is offline  
post #1525 of 2304 Old 02-07-2017, 01:12 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
golffnutt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Southeast Tennessee
Posts: 1,702
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 141 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Fernand View Post
Early adopter always take a hit in terms of hassle and cost - long HDMI cables were just as costly in the early days of HDMI.

Joe

PS Golf - now there is a low cost hobby!!!
Much lower than this hobby where equipment is outdated every 6-8 months. I am still hitting 9 year old golf Callaway clubs and still can maintain a single digit handicap which is pretty respectable. I buy Titleist golf balls at Steinmart for $19.97 doz. 6 doz. ($120 per summer is less than the cost of any single 4K player on the market currently) last me an entire summer. I appreciate what you are saying but you can not defend the cost of this hobby, no way, no how, even if buying refurbs and used equipment like I do it is still a very expensive hobby. And believe me before you get on your soap box about the cost of R&D. I have a very good idea of what R&D cost as I am a retired Sales & Marketing Exec who got involved very heavily in R&D, Marketing, and Advertising with my manufacturers on the products that I sold.

Thank you. Golffnutt "GO DAWGS" !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Panasonic PT-AE 8000U Projector with 10' Screen // Samsung 65" 4K TV UN65KS9500F // Denon X6200W Receiver // Oppo 203 4K Player // Pioneer Elite BDP-51FD Blu-Ray Player (Great CD Player and Excellent Blu-Ray Player) // All PSB Speakers in my 9.2 speaker setup with 2ea. M&K 12" Subs // Panamax Surge Protection // 35' Bluerigger Cable (18gbps band width, 60 frame rate, and 4:4:4 capable) and 3 ea Monoprice 6' Premium Certified Cables

Last edited by golffnutt; 02-07-2017 at 01:15 PM.
golffnutt is offline  
post #1526 of 2304 Old 02-07-2017, 01:15 PM
Advanced Member
 
mr2828's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: TN
Posts: 874
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Wrapping up install today of a 100' Celerity cable. Seems solid directly connected with my PS4 Pro and other sources, just had it running for a few hours with no dropouts. Things have been a bit quirky with several cheap 4x2 matrix switches I experimented with. Out of 5 different matrixes, only 1 seems to work reliably. I'm not sure if this is something to do with the Celerity cable, or the fact that these are the cheaper style low-end matrixes (< $100), or with the fact I'm sending to 2 very different displays: 2008-era Pioneer Kuro plasma, and 2016-era Vizio P-series. But this matrix setup is only temporary, I plan to upgrade the old plasma soon to a 4k oled display combined with a modern AVR for handling HDMI switching.
mr2828 is offline  
post #1527 of 2304 Old 02-07-2017, 02:08 PM
Member
 
Keith Murray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Philomath, Oregon
Posts: 127
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by golffnutt View Post
Thanks Keith for the reply and info. Couple of quick questions. You stated you are using all Monoprice certified premium cables yet you also say you are using a cable called "Blackbird". I can't find a cable called "Blackbird" on the Monoprice website?

Secondly since the certified premium cables, according to some folks on this forum, are pretty hefty are you having any problem with them weighing down your connections and trying to pull out of the HDMI socket on the back of your components?

I am going to try and return my Ultra Slim cables and purchase the premium cables to the back of my components, short runs, 4-6' before returning my LUX 35" cable. Maybe my short cables are the problem and the LUX is OK. If that doesn't work then I am going to return the LUX and purchase the Cabernet and see if that works as some have suggested here on this forum. At any rate thanks for the info. Glad yours is working good, hopefully I will get there before the end of this year????
The Blackbird is a booster from Monoprice. I use it to connect the two 15' cables. This combo has been reliable when no single cable has been. For me at least.

The monoprice certified cables are a little stiff but not too bad. They seem to have a nice snug fit so I don't foresee any issues. Might be a problem if space is limited.

Monoprice seems to have a great return policy so that helps when experimenting.

I did have to replace my short cables. I had a variety and some were ok, others were not. So I just replaced them all. Monoprice certified cables are cheap.

Good luck!
Keith Murray is offline  
post #1528 of 2304 Old 02-09-2017, 06:36 PM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 589
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 343 Post(s)
Liked: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigAmey View Post
Probably also worth mentioning here that this whole thing is an academic exercise, since humans can't see the difference between RGB 444 and YUV 420 at normal viewing distances. I've done the experiment and I couldn't tell the difference 10ft away from my 65" 4K screen.
I totally agree if video is involved. If you are using your tv as a monitor which I have been doing for almost 15 years, I can see a huge difference at further than 10 feet. My setup is vizio P65, 1080gtx htpc, kids consoles, ect... With 4k or even 1080p the issue is not "blurriness" that some comment on but the increased color from chroma is very evident. Yes, if you look closer text is a bit sharper with 444 vs 420 or 422. I personally sit about 10 to 12 feet from my tv on a couch with an extended keyboard and mouse or xbox 1 controller.
Friendlys is offline  
post #1529 of 2304 Old 02-10-2017, 08:39 AM
Member
 
i_max2k2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 83
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Guys, I'm trying to find a 25ft cable that can do 18gbps, it seems there are few options for someone on a budget, which cables are these and for 20ft 18gbps. I'm guessing most cables will do 12gbps. The initial try I did using a 25ft cable would do 30ghz @4k 444. But couldn't do 60hz at that, reading above it seems 420 @ 60hz takes no more then 12gb even with HDR, I'll give that a try using the cable I have. But Still wanted to see if there was an affordable 20/25ft cable option for passing 4k/[email protected] from a pc. Since I can return the cable I have and might as well get something within that range that works full speed.

Thank you!

65E6P + X4300H + Polk LSiM 707 (F) + Polk LSiM 706c (C) + 703 (R) + Oppo 203 + ATV 4K
55EA9800 + ATV 4th Gen.
i_max2k2 is offline  
post #1530 of 2304 Old 02-10-2017, 11:15 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Otto Pylot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bull Mountain, OR
Posts: 15,204
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3509 Post(s)
Liked: 2536
There are no guarantees for anything above about 20', with the exception possibly of a fiber optic cable, for 4k, 4:4:4 @60Hz. Some work, some don't, regardless of mfr or packaging claims. It's all trial and error with the exception of the fiber optic cable.
Otto Pylot is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply HDMI Q&A - The One Connector World

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off