HDMI cables that support 4K@60Hz, 4:4:4 chroma, and Deep Color? - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 2304 Old 12-16-2015, 07:34 PM
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BlueJeans cable owner signing in here:


Well this seems like the right thread to post these questions in, as I'm now re-entering the horror show that is the world of HDMI syncing.

My system has the source components in one room, and I use two 45 foot long BlueJeans Beldon HDMI cables (the top version rated for longest runs) to the room with my projector. This has worked great for the last 5 years, passing 1080p, 3D and also 4K signals (1080p upscaled to 4K and output from my Lumagen video processor) with no problems.

BUT...I just replaced my JVC projector (2 years old) with the latest model and now I can't get a picture. The latest models are fully UHD compatible "Dual Full Speed 18Gbps HDMI/HDCP 2.2 Compatible Inputs" specs here:

http://procision.jvc.com/product.jsp...Id=140&page=10

Hooking up the new projector to the existing HDMI cable run (back to my Lumagen doing the video switching) completely freezes the projector, not only no picture, it makes it unresponsive to all commands. I tried bypassing the Lumagen etc, running the one of the 45 foot HDMI cables directly into the projector, and that works fine. So it's something about the communication with the Lumagen.

On bringing this up in the Lumagen threads, they are suggesting I'm probably running up against a cable limitation - the chips in the Lumagen, and now my new JVC, are a bit more demanding and finicky, so this long passive run may have met it's match.

Does that sound about right to folks here?

(It's been suggested I place the Lumagen VP at the end of the long HDMI cable run, and run a 6 foot HDMI cable from the Lumagen into the projector, and if that works it suggests cable limitations being the culpurite).

Anyway....IF I have to re-cable like everyone else I want to do it right, especially as the cables run through basement ceilings through rooms etc.

Would a redmere type cable of 45 feet be a good bet? Or an HDMI Balun? I'm not sure what the advantages of one over the other are.

Finally, I see people say that Cat 6/7 is the cable to run if you just want to be more future proof. So why isn't everyone just using Cat 6/7 rather than fooling around rolling dice on all the HDMI cables? Would it make sense to just go Cat cables? (I guess they just terminate them with HDMI connectors or something?)

Thanks!
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post #182 of 2304 Old 12-16-2015, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by greywarden View Post
All firmware and drivers are up to date.

Yeah I know it's 4:4:4 capable, Rtings is the reason why I bought the TV, I've also corresponded with them about the issue, and they pretty much told me the same thing, they don't know why it won't do 60Hz but it's probably a setting somewhere that needs to be adjusted.

I have the #1 and #2 inputs set to PC mode and UHD color enabled. There is a game mode on this TV, but it sets the color to 4:2:0 when enabled to lower the input latency.

I have two cables now, that multiple people in this thread have endorsed to work for them. The BJC FE-series and the Kabledirect Pro, as well as a Vizio that claims 18Gbps.

I do currently have 4:4:4 color (RGB and YCrCb) capability at 30Hz, but nothing higher, not even 50Hz.

I have reset the TV to default settings before, but I don't feel like that is the ultimate reset (for lack of a better term). I will try doing a clean install of the Nvidia Drivers in the case that it's something in there that is causing the issue.

I have my last Final of the semester today, that, along side finishing up building a house right now, has my free time completely. I will try the HardForum and JS9000 owners threads to get some help as well.

Thanks for the help!

Oh, I remembered that when I initially set it to 4:4:4 color and 60Hz it actually worked, but the screen would go black randomly for a couple seconds and eventually it just stayed black, does that help any?
Given that you are able to do 4:4:4 at 30 Hz, the TV should be setup correctly. Did you mention that you're trying to run 12 bits? If so, does it work at 8 bits?

I seem to remember that you're running two cards in an SLI arrangement. You might want to try using just one card to see if you get different results. I would try each card, just to be thorough. You've tried every input on the TV, which is also something that I've heard should be tried.

It's quite mysterious as to why you would be having issues with such a short run. At this point, I think you're headed down the path of trying just about anything that makes even a little sense in order to figure it out. I'm at a loss for anything more than what I've mentioned here.

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post #183 of 2304 Old 12-16-2015, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Finally, I see people say that Cat 6/7 is the cable to run if you just want to be more future proof. So why isn't everyone just using Cat 6/7 rather than fooling around rolling dice on all the HDMI cables? Would it make sense to just go Cat cables? (I guess they just terminate them with HDMI connectors or something?)

Thanks!
Solid core CAT6/7 (not CAT6/7 patch cable) is recommended in a conduit for long runs where a Redmere cable won't do or one wants to "future proof" their cabling. The downside is that they need active termination if you want to use them for extended a/v connections and not just an extended ethernet connection. The active termination used is HDBT (HD-BaseT) and can be a little expensive, hence the hesitation to use them. The problem, as I see it, with HDMI cables, even certified ones (certified for HDMI 2.0 hardware specs), is going to be length. The current, accepted certification for passive HDMI cables is 25'. After that an active cable with Redmere (or similar) technolgy should be used but even then, there are limitations. As video demands increase over time, HDMI cables will need to be upgraded/changed. A solid core CAT-6/7 cable will probably meet the new standards and demands longer than an HDMI cable. Replacing a solid core cable in a conduit is a lot easier than replacing an HDMI cable. As far as active HDMI cables go, it is possible that the chipset in the sink ends can fail like any other electronic device or the chipsets won't be able to keep up with the needed timing for higher bandwidths and will need to be replaced sooner than one wants. I'm not a big fan of HDMI but it's what we are stuck with so planning ahead is a good idea. A 1.5" conduit with a couple of solid core CAT-6/7 cables, along with your HDMI cable of choice, and a pull-string should keep you ahead of the game for quite some time. Just make sure you leave service loops at both ends for ease of adding connectors, etc.

I use solid core CAT-6 to extend my ethernet connection so I don't have to depend on WiFi for my HTS. The connector is punch down Keytsone jacks to which I've connected CAT-6 patch cable to a gigabit switch.
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post #184 of 2304 Old 12-16-2015, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
A 1.5" conduit with a couple of solid core CAT-6/7 cables, along with your HDMI cable of choice, and a pull-string should keep you ahead of the game for quite some time. Just make sure you leave service loops at both ends for ease of adding connectors, etc.
Thank you very much for that helpful reply Otto!

So it seems to me, the message is: if you don't mind paying the price, go for CAT-6/7 cable!
It can be terminated with HDMI connectors to just the right length, and will also be lighter more flexible and possibly more reliable than active HDMI cables, if I've got that right.
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post #185 of 2304 Old 12-16-2015, 10:37 PM
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Thank you very much for that helpful reply Otto!

So it seems to me, the message is: if you don't mind paying the price, go for CAT-6/7 cable!
It can be terminated with HDMI connectors to just the right length, and will also be lighter more flexible and possibly more reliable than active HDMI cables, if I've got that right.
Almost. Solid core CAT-6/7 is not as flexible as Redmere cables because the wires are solid, not twisted pairs (like a patch cable). One of the advantages of Redmere cables is that they are small gauge wires but can maintain the HDMI specs because of the "built-in" active termination. Solid core CAT-6 needs active termination (hence HDBT) if you are going to push video from say a media server 70' away to a tv. If you are going to extend an ethernet connection only, you don't need to terminate it actively (basically adding power). So, to push a/v over solid core CAT-6 you need to actively terminate it (same idea as a Redmere cable). The advantage of solid core is higher bandwidth capabilities. If you want to use solid core CAT-6 for just extending an ethernet connection, you don't need to actively terminate and can wire it to an RJ-46 connector.
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post #186 of 2304 Old 12-16-2015, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
Almost. Solid core CAT-6/7 is not as flexible as Redmere cables because the wires are solid, not twisted pairs (like a patch cable). One of the advantages of Redmere cables is that they are small gauge wires but can maintain the HDMI specs because of the "built-in" active termination. Solid core CAT-6 needs active termination (hence HDBT) if you are going to push video from say a media server 70' away to a tv. If you are going to extend an ethernet connection only, you don't need to terminate it actively (basically adding power). So, to push a/v over solid core CAT-6 you need to actively terminate it (same idea as a Redmere cable). The advantage of solid core is higher bandwidth capabilities. If you want to use solid core CAT-6 for just extending an ethernet connection, you don't need to actively terminate and can wire it to an RJ-46 connector.
Otto, correct me if necessary but I believe that we don't have a HDBT solution for 4K/60Hz yet. So even if one invests in such cable, this would not be an immediate solution yet.

I am in the same boat as Rich. New JVC projector, 50 feet long cable, no 4K/60Hz signal in the other end. Because of the current limitation with HDBT, I decided to go with a fiber optic HDMI cable. In theory, I can get up to 300 feet with that one. Monoprice has a 75ft one and I hope to have it installed just after Christmas.

If anyone has any experience with those fiber optic HDMI cables please shout before I install them :-)

Daniel.
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post #187 of 2304 Old 12-17-2015, 05:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
BlueJeans cable owner signing in here:


Well this seems like the right thread to post these questions in, as I'm now re-entering the horror show that is the world of HDMI syncing.

My system has the source components in one room, and I use two 45 foot long BlueJeans Beldon HDMI cables (the top version rated for longest runs) to the room with my projector. This has worked great for the last 5 years, passing 1080p, 3D and also 4K signals (1080p upscaled to 4K and output from my Lumagen video processor) with no problems.

BUT...I just replaced my JVC projector (2 years old) with the latest model and now I can't get a picture. The latest models are fully UHD compatible "Dual Full Speed 18Gbps HDMI/HDCP 2.2 Compatible Inputs" specs here:

http://procision.jvc.com/product.jsp...Id=140&page=10

Hooking up the new projector to the existing HDMI cable run (back to my Lumagen doing the video switching) completely freezes the projector, not only no picture, it makes it unresponsive to all commands. I tried bypassing the Lumagen etc, running the one of the 45 foot HDMI cables directly into the projector, and that works fine. So it's something about the communication with the Lumagen.

On bringing this up in the Lumagen threads, they are suggesting I'm probably running up against a cable limitation - the chips in the Lumagen, and now my new JVC, are a bit more demanding and finicky, so this long passive run may have met it's match.

Does that sound about right to folks here?

(It's been suggested I place the Lumagen VP at the end of the long HDMI cable run, and run a 6 foot HDMI cable from the Lumagen into the projector, and if that works it suggests cable limitations being the culpurite).

Anyway....IF I have to re-cable like everyone else I want to do it right, especially as the cables run through basement ceilings through rooms etc.

Would a redmere type cable of 45 feet be a good bet? Or an HDMI Balun? I'm not sure what the advantages of one over the other are.

Finally, I see people say that Cat 6/7 is the cable to run if you just want to be more future proof. So why isn't everyone just using Cat 6/7 rather than fooling around rolling dice on all the HDMI cables? Would it make sense to just go Cat cables? (I guess they just terminate them with HDMI connectors or something?)

Thanks!

I purchased the $19.95 18GB certified Belkin HDMI and found it to be no big deal. I replaced it with Zatix HDMI, a two pack for about $6 and found it was better. Redmere will help in long distance HDMI work.
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post #188 of 2304 Old 12-17-2015, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by danbez View Post
Otto, correct me if necessary but I believe that we don't have a HDBT solution for 4K/60Hz yet. So even if one invests in such cable, this would not be an immediate solution yet.

I am in the same boat as Rich. New JVC projector, 50 feet long cable, no 4K/60Hz signal in the other end. Because of the current limitation with HDBT, I decided to go with a fiber optic HDMI cable. In theory, I can get up to 300 feet with that one. Monoprice has a 75ft one and I hope to have it installed just after Christmas.

If anyone has any experience with those fiber optic HDMI cables please shout before I install them :-)

Daniel.
danbez - you could be correct so I'll have to look into that. I do know that there are some limitations to current HDBT so installing solid core CAT-6/7 would be for future use. With two cables one could certainly extend and ethernet connection if needed and "save" the other one for a/v use. I'm not up to speed on the FO HDMI cable so let us know how that works. I'd be very interested.
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post #189 of 2304 Old 12-17-2015, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
BlueJeans cable owner signing in here:


Well this seems like the right thread to post these questions in, as I'm now re-entering the horror show that is the world of HDMI syncing.

My system has the source components in one room, and I use two 45 foot long BlueJeans Beldon HDMI cables (the top version rated for longest runs) to the room with my projector. This has worked great for the last 5 years, passing 1080p, 3D and also 4K signals (1080p upscaled to 4K and output from my Lumagen video processor) with no problems.

BUT...I just replaced my JVC projector (2 years old) with the latest model and now I can't get a picture. The latest models are fully UHD compatible "Dual Full Speed 18Gbps HDMI/HDCP 2.2 Compatible Inputs" specs here:

http://procision.jvc.com/product.jsp...Id=140&page=10

Hooking up the new projector to the existing HDMI cable run (back to my Lumagen doing the video switching) completely freezes the projector, not only no picture, it makes it unresponsive to all commands. I tried bypassing the Lumagen etc, running the one of the 45 foot HDMI cables directly into the projector, and that works fine. So it's something about the communication with the Lumagen.

On bringing this up in the Lumagen threads, they are suggesting I'm probably running up against a cable limitation - the chips in the Lumagen, and now my new JVC, are a bit more demanding and finicky, so this long passive run may have met it's match.

Does that sound about right to folks here?

(It's been suggested I place the Lumagen VP at the end of the long HDMI cable run, and run a 6 foot HDMI cable from the Lumagen into the projector, and if that works it suggests cable limitations being the culpurite).

Anyway....IF I have to re-cable like everyone else I want to do it right, especially as the cables run through basement ceilings through rooms etc.

Would a redmere type cable of 45 feet be a good bet? Or an HDMI Balun? I'm not sure what the advantages of one over the other are.

Finally, I see people say that Cat 6/7 is the cable to run if you just want to be more future proof. So why isn't everyone just using Cat 6/7 rather than fooling around rolling dice on all the HDMI cables? Would it make sense to just go Cat cables? (I guess they just terminate them with HDMI connectors or something?)

Thanks!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
Solid core CAT6/7 (not CAT6/7 patch cable) is recommended in a conduit for long runs where a Redmere cable won't do or one wants to "future proof" their cabling. The downside is that they need active termination if you want to use them for extended a/v connections and not just an extended ethernet connection. The active termination used is HDBT (HD-BaseT) and can be a little expensive, hence the hesitation to use them. The problem, as I see it, with HDMI cables, even certified ones (certified for HDMI 2.0 hardware specs), is going to be length. The current, accepted certification for passive HDMI cables is 25'. After that an active cable with Redmere (or similar) technolgy should be used but even then, there are limitations. As video demands increase over time, HDMI cables will need to be upgraded/changed. A solid core CAT-6/7 cable will probably meet the new standards and demands longer than an HDMI cable. Replacing a solid core cable in a conduit is a lot easier than replacing an HDMI cable. As far as active HDMI cables go, it is possible that the chipset in the sink ends can fail like any other electronic device or the chipsets won't be able to keep up with the needed timing for higher bandwidths and will need to be replaced sooner than one wants. I'm not a big fan of HDMI but it's what we are stuck with so planning ahead is a good idea. A 1.5" conduit with a couple of solid core CAT-6/7 cables, along with your HDMI cable of choice, and a pull-string should keep you ahead of the game for quite some time. Just make sure you leave service loops at both ends for ease of adding connectors, etc.

I use solid core CAT-6 to extend my ethernet connection so I don't have to depend on WiFi for my HTS. The connector is punch down Keytsone jacks to which I've connected CAT-6 patch cable to a gigabit switch.
Rich: What Otto has described is a set up change I made recently when having sync issues with my JVC 57. I too have made the change to the new JVC 500. It should arrive tomorrow. I'll be running it through it's paces over the weekend.

My set up includes the HDbaseT extender, with solid core Cat6 cables between the transmitter and receiver. I am using the two monoprice (I think they call them commerical HDMI cables) at both ends.

Since getting my 57 back from Mendtronix couple months ago with the new cables, I never had another sync issue. I assume one of the problems was the redmere cable not playing nice with the Lumagen mini.

Fingers crossed the startup and syncing goes smooth this weekend. I'll report back either way.

Ron

PS: It was JVC that insisted that exact cabling change for anything longer than 30 ft between sources and their projector.
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post #190 of 2304 Old 12-17-2015, 10:34 AM
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Valens are pedalling fast to keep up with HDMI.org - http://www.valens.com/products/vs2000

Solid core (non-CCA) CAT6 is the best option for HDBT.


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post #191 of 2304 Old 12-17-2015, 02:00 PM
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Ron,

Thanks. That's not good to hear it didn't work with the redmere cable. I was just about to pull the trigger on a monoprice redmere cable to try that out.

What a F#cking headache! If only once a new piece of equipment I bought would just work.
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post #192 of 2304 Old 12-17-2015, 03:19 PM
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Ok,

I've batted around various options and it looks like I'm going to try this. I'll get a redmere 4K cable around 50 ft or so and try it, to see if it works. If it does, I'll run it through my wall.

I'm looking at two possibilities. One is the monoprice:

http://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=13760

But the thing is I wouldn't get it shipped to Toronto until the new year apparently. (Says the delivery estimate). If I want to get one earlier I could order this redmere cabe from here:

http://www.wallmountsolution.com/acc...-up-to-4k.html

Those cables should be technically equivalent shouldn't they? Or am I missing something?
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post #193 of 2304 Old 12-17-2015, 03:59 PM
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The Luxe cable states 4k/60Hz @ 18Gbps up to 50' so it would appear that the 50' active cable may work. The WallMount cable just states that it exceeds 10.2Gbps so I wouldn't consider them equivalent based on their market-speak. However, we get back to the certification question. Neither cable mentions anything at all about how their speed claims are substantiated so without a certificate of compliance for the cable length you purchased it may work reliably or not. I would feel more comfortable with the Monoprice cable, but thoroughly test it before installation.
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post #194 of 2304 Old 12-17-2015, 06:58 PM
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Thanks again Otto. That leaves me with a time dilemma still, but the feed back is helpful.
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post #195 of 2304 Old 12-17-2015, 08:46 PM
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Choose wisely Grasshopper
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post #196 of 2304 Old 12-20-2015, 05:52 PM
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Anyone know what cable would output 3840x2160/60p (YCbCr4:2:0 8bit) for sure?
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post #197 of 2304 Old 12-20-2015, 06:07 PM
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Any well made passive High Speed HDMI cable up to about 25'. All you need for 4:2:[email protected] on an 8-bit panel is a bandwidth of 8.91Gbps. It's not necessarily the cable but the HDMI 1.4/2.0 chipsets on both sides of the cable in the source/sink sides.
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post #198 of 2304 Old 12-21-2015, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
On bringing this up in the Lumagen threads, they are suggesting I'm probably running up against a cable limitation - the chips in the Lumagen, and now my new JVC, are a bit more demanding and finicky, so this long passive run may have met it's match.
First, my apologies for being slow to respond -- I thought I was still getting e-mails as messages posted to this thread but I wasn't.

Unfortunately, yes, that's pretty likely. The Series-1 cables have excellent performance but there's only so much passive cable can do as the bitrate keeps going up. 18 Gbps is one heck of a fast connection.

We are in development on longer-length 18 Gbps solutions. Right now I have got cable on the way, and we are trying to figure out how long an active cable we'll be able to support when the next Redmere/Spectra7 chips are out, which should be soon. But those products are still at least a few months out so right now I have nothing to offer.

On the Cat 6/7 question: right now, the best way to get HDMI down a Cat 6 cable is HDBaseT -- and HDBaseT still doesn't support HDMI past 1.4, so no 18 Gbps to be had there. I am waiting, eagerly, for HDBaseT to announce that they're coming out with the updated spec to handle HDMI 2.0 bandwidth but have seen nothing yet. Maybe at CES (only two weeks away)?

Further on Cat 6: don't make the mistake many people do, which is to assume that something that's labeled "Cat 6" really is Cat 6. The amount of outright fraud in data cabling is astonishing -- our tests show that about 80% of the mass-market patchcords labeled at Cat 6 or 6a don't pass their specs, and more than half don't even pass 5e. This is true for well-regarded web retailers, hardware and office supply stores -- it's true pretty much everywhere except in the actual data-center market. You want to buy Cat 6 or 6a from a vendor who actually tests each assembly; or, if you're buying horizontal cable for installation, you want to buy from somebody good -- we like Belden, but other names like Systimax, Berk-Tek and the like are also good. This is a good area in which to "buy American" as the quality of American data cabling is far superior to the typical Chinese product (it's not that there aren't good Chinese products -- it's that they are so few in number that your odds, with any vendor, simply aren't very good that they've sourced the good stuff). We have actually started carrying horizontal cable under the Blue Jeans Cable name but with the holiday season, we haven't yet had time to get it up on the website yet...coming soon....

Kurt
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post #199 of 2304 Old 12-21-2015, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Kurt_BlueJeansCable View Post

Further on Cat 6: don't make the mistake many people do, which is to assume that something that's labeled "Cat 6" really is Cat 6. The amount of outright fraud in data cabling is astonishing -- our tests show that about 80% of the mass-market patchcords labeled at Cat 6 or 6a don't pass their specs, and more than half don't even pass 5e.
This is true but that's why we recommend solid core CAT-6/7 and not patch cord cables. There is a definite difference. But yes, customers need to do their homework and understand the difference between the two and buy something that is Made in the U.S.A. from someone like Belden.
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post #200 of 2304 Old 12-21-2015, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
This is true but that's why we recommend solid core CAT-6/7 and not patch cord cables. There is a definite difference. But yes, customers need to do their homework and understand the difference between the two and buy something that is Made in the U.S.A. from someone like Belden.
Well, the problem's not limited to patch cords, though. The main issues are bad impedance and crosstalk control, and these are just as difficult to get right in horizontal cable as in patch. Going to solid conductors (our patch cords are all solid, by the way) helps marginally by making the conductor profile more consistent, but the big issues have to do with consistency in dielectric sizing and assembly, control over twist rates, and that sort of thing. We haven't done a comprehensive survey of Chinese horizontal cable, but what we have seen has been awful.

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post #201 of 2304 Old 12-21-2015, 11:34 AM
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I guess I'm lucky then because I've never had any issues with solid core CAT-6 that I've purchased and used. I think I bought my last 100' spool from Home Depot (in-store, not online) and it has worked perfectly for me.
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post #203 of 2304 Old 12-21-2015, 04:30 PM
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Hey guys, just finished reading every post.

I arrived here are some rather odd experiences similar to many of you, except with some differences.

I have had issues with short cables as well. I originally started with a monoprice redmere 10' cable, it does actually work from my TV (Vizio M70C3) to my receiver (Onkyo RZ800). However, I could not get a solid signal when trying to bump up to 60hz (using a 980ti gpu). I would get a pink/green skewed and cropped picture, but it would always work at 30hz. I connected my pc directly to the redmere TV cable and it worked, so I figured my problem was the cable from my pc to the receiver. I picked up another matching 3' monoprice redmere cable, and I got the same result. I started to think maybe it was my receiver. I purchased a KabelDirekt 3' TOP cable, and it worked! Yay, right? Two weeks later it stopped working, and back to the same pink/green picture. I'm about to buy a fourth HDMI KabelDirekt PRO cable, hoping it works, but having these experiences is getting frustrating. It seems there's no consensus on ANY cable to just works at 60hz.
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post #204 of 2304 Old 12-21-2015, 06:49 PM
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At under 10' a Redmere cable is an overkill. There are no advantages of a Redmere other than maintaining HDMI protocols over longer distance using a thinner gauge cable. I would use a certified passive high speed cable at that length, it's cheaper. It could be that the timing in the active cable chipset is just not robust enough for 60Hz.
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post #205 of 2304 Old 12-28-2015, 02:11 AM
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It's interesting that some people are having issues with cables that work fine for me.

For 4K/60Hz/4:4:4:

1 of my 4 AmazonBasics cables works fine. Two skew green/pink at rates above 30Hz and one gives a blank screen, though the PC still reports the TV as connected. The one that works isn't even all that new (2013, High Speed with Ethernet) but it is noticeably thicker than the other three. I think it's 15'.

I purchased 2 Mediabridge Ultra cables in early December and they work fine as well. The Amazon product page states 18gbps support as does their website. The lengths are both 6'.
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post #206 of 2304 Old 12-28-2015, 09:28 AM
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Just be careful. A lot of cable mfrs are stating 18Gbps but very few actually can produce a certificate of compliance that states the length of cable you purchased has been tested and rated to pass the current HDMI 2.0 hardware protocols at 18.2Gbps. Some do work, most don't. And as far as the ones that apparently do work, it is unknown as to how long they will continue to work once peripheral devices are capable of using 18.2Gbps on a continual basis. For 18Gbps, I think the wire gauge is the critical factor so far. However, the thicker the gauge, the less flexible the cable becomes (narrower bend radius) and the more strain on the input ends so those two aspects need to be considered as well.
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post #207 of 2304 Old 12-29-2015, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash676 View Post
It's interesting that some people are having issues with cables that work fine for me.

For 4K/60Hz/4:4:4:

1 of my 4 AmazonBasics cables works fine. Two skew green/pink at rates above 30Hz and one gives a blank screen, though the PC still reports the TV as connected. The one that works isn't even all that new (2013, High Speed with Ethernet) but it is noticeably thicker than the other three. I think it's 15'.

I purchased 2 Mediabridge Ultra cables in early December and they work fine as well. The Amazon product page states 18gbps support as does their website. The lengths are both 6'.
After following this thread and from my own experiences, the ONLY real issue is length. I think just about any 6' "high speed" cable will work, it's those of us who need to run longer lengths that are having issues... But yes, the certification process for 18.2gbps is only in its infancy. So in the mean time, simply use the shortest and thickest High Speed cable you can get away with if you need to go beyond 10 feet. Like you said, the thickest one you have is what works at 15'. Other than a rare temporary "cutout" for me, KabelDirekt seems to work well up to at least 20 feet. Any of their varieties are fine, they are all the same internally... Maybe we can post results of what brand and what length (15'+) works for us with [email protected] w/4:4:4.
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post #208 of 2304 Old 12-30-2015, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
For 18Gbps, I think the wire gauge is the critical factor so far. However, the thicker the gauge, the less flexible the cable becomes (narrower bend radius) and the more strain on the input ends so those two aspects need to be considered as well.
Actually, the big issue here is impedance stability -- that is, it's all about fine dimensional control in cable manufacturing, and good termination practices. AWG will affect the overall attenuation, but the critical consideration isn't how much energy is lost from the signal but how much the rise/fall events at transitions get smeared. The sharpness of rise/fall events is affected by the fact that return loss gets worse (though -- and this is part of the problem -- quite unevenly sometimes) with higher frequencies, and most of the energy that keeps those transitions sharp is at the high end of the energy spectrum of the HDMI signal. A 6 Gbps signal in a pair (there are three data pairs and a clock pair in HDMI, so a full-bandwidth 18 Gbps signal is 6 Gbps/pair) has a 3 GHz fundamental, and the sharpness is in odd harmonics (a square wave being a sum of the fundamental and a series of odd harmonics) so that performance at 9 GHz is important. The wavelength at that point is absurdly short -- 2.2 centimeters in a solid PE dielectric -- and this means that all sorts of minimal inconsistencies and periodicities in cable manufacture come into play.

And that, it bears saying, is why nobody ever, ever tries to shove that much data down twisted pairs in any other context without doing something to squish the required bandwidth down, such as multilevel encoding.

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post #209 of 2304 Old 12-30-2015, 05:20 PM
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The science is sound but most of us recommend a solid core (not twisted pair) CAT-6/7 with active termination (HDBT) for runs longer than the "magic" number of 25'. Even HDBT has drawbacks but those should be overcome in the coming year. For me, I'd never use an HDMI cable longer than 25'. Even well made cables such as BJC will have issues at longer lengths depending on how rigorous the certification process is for a given length and if that certification process meets/exceeds the requirements that HDMI.org will, or has required.
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
The science is sound but most of us recommend a solid core (not twisted pair) CAT-6/7 with active termination (HDBT) for runs longer than the "magic" number of 25'. Even HDBT has drawbacks but those should be overcome in the coming year. For me, I'd never use an HDMI cable longer than 25'. Even well made cables such as BJC will have issues at longer lengths depending on how rigorous the certification process is for a given length and if that certification process meets/exceeds the requirements that HDMI.org will, or has required.
Short cable may indeed be the only answer to some of the problems 2.0 creates. HDBaseT is great, but it should be noted that right now there's no accommodation of HDMI 2.0 under HDBaseT (I'm hoping for an announcement at CES that will change that...) and so there's no "works now" solution for full 18 Gbps using HDBaseT.

The official certification processes all do meet the requirements established by HDMI.org (or, as I usually call it, "HDMI Licensing")--that's who writes the Compliance Testing Specifications for all licensed equipment. There are unofficial certifications, which range from credible (e.g., UL and DPL) to worthless (e.g., manufacturers' "house" certifications represented as data rates on retail packages, which may not be supported by any testing, have no published criteria, and basically don't really exist), but the official certifications, from HDMI Authorized Testing Centers, are all based on the official HDMI Compliance Testing Specifications. So when you're looking at a certificate, it should be clear -- if the certifying laboratory is listed on HDMI.org as an Authorized Testing Center, it's good; if it's not, you still don't know what the official certification (if any) for the product says.

By the way, when you say "solid core (not twisted pair) CAT-6/7" I think you're getting confused. All Cat 6 or 7 cable is twisted pair. Solid versus stranded is the choice here, and the differences are only that stranded gives greater flexibility but will slightly compromise return loss. But whether the wire is solid or stranded, it'll be twisted-pair -- without that, crosstalk would be through the roof. Solid or stranded cables can be excellent -- that's not a really good criterion for choosing -- the biggest thing is to know that the stuff actually meets the spec requirements. In patch you can know that by demanding test reports; in horizontal cable the best way to know is to test on-site, but the second-best way to know is to stay away from imported cable.

Kurt
BJC

Last edited by Kurt_BlueJeansCable; 12-30-2015 at 05:34 PM.
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