TEST REPORTS | HDMI CABLES WHICH PROPERLY AND RELIABLY SUPPORT 18GBPS & HDMI 2.0b - Page 42 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1231 of 1323 Old 07-30-2019, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Pip View Post
Cable run distances:

Denon to TCL - 5'; Cables tested: 6', 10' 15' Monoprice Premium Certified Hi Speed, and 12M Ruipro.

Denon to JVC - 32'; Cables tested 12M Ruipro, 25' BJC, and 35' Blue Rigger

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post #1232 of 1323 Old 07-31-2019, 04:49 PM
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Hello,

I just bought a 10M RuiPro from Amazon because I'm having handshake issues with my equipment. One question I do have that I don't see on the listing is whether or not it is CL2/3 rated. Any chance anyone knows as I plan to run it in-wall. Thanks in advance for any help!
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post #1233 of 1323 Old 07-31-2019, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
Distance isn't your problem. Cables aren't your problem. It's a setting somewhere. Review your settings carefully on the Denon.
Otto: further testing.

I’ll post this here as it seems there are bandwidth issues. There are also specific questions for the TCL and Denon threads.

To recap: AppleTv 4K and Panasonic 820, switched through Denon 4300 to TCL RS615 and JVC RS500.

The problem: Neither the ATV nor the 820, when going through the Denon to the TV, can pass a full HDR signal.

But, both 4K sources, (at any and all 4K HDR settings) work perfectly directly from device to the TV, and work perfectly through the Denon to the projector.

Spoiler!


For my last two tests I tried swapping a Yamaha 850 (HDMI 2.1) for the Denon, and (at Claw’s suggestion) putting the TCL in computer mode (which has drawbacks)

Every test passed to the projector, so we will set that aside.

“TCL” alone means not in computer mode. Computer mode is stated when engaged.


Observations:

When connected directly to the TCL, both devices pass all resolutions - without the need for computer mode, although both devices fail when going through the Denon.

Both devices pass all resolutions through the Denon to the TCL when in computer mode.

The 820 passes all resolutions through the Yamaha without the need for computer mode, although this fails through the Denon.

Without computer mode, the ATV fails through either receiver. It passes only directly, and with computer mode.

My guesses:

The fact that everything passes (directly) to the TCL without computer mode (and to the projector), seems to indicate a bandwidth problem. The Denon seems to be somehow consuming some bandwidth which the non-computer mode TCL seems to need. The computer mode doesn’t seem to need this bandwidth, and the projector doesn’t need it.

Everything passes from the 820 through the Yamaha, so the Yamaha appears to be consuming less bandwidth than the Denon, but even the Yamaha is consuming too much for the ATV.

It looks like a bandwidth problem. The ATV, when testing Dolby Vision through the Denon, looks like it’s about to make it. I see the DV logo, and correct DV red splash screen, then it goes blank and fails.

The green/pink failures from the 820 always look correct for a split second, and then the signal fails to green/pink.

Thanks for your help,

Pip

Detailed test results:

Spoiler!
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post #1234 of 1323 Old 07-31-2019, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by sasquatch1287 View Post
Hello,

I just bought a 10M RuiPro from Amazon because I'm having handshake issues with my equipment. One question I do have that I don't see on the listing is whether or not it is CL2/3 rated. Any chance anyone knows as I plan to run it in-wall. Thanks in advance for any help!
CL2/CL3 is usually used for high voltage wiring. CL2 is rated for 250V and CL3 is rated for 300V. CL ratings don't reduce smoke and gases but do reduce the possibility of shock. The CL2/CL3 rating for the Ruipro cable jackets are still in progress the last time I checked with them. Are you going to run the cable in a conduit?

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post #1235 of 1323 Old 07-31-2019, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Pip View Post
Otto: further testing.

I’ll post this here as it seems there are bandwidth issues. There are also specific questions for the TCL and Denon threads.

To recap: AppleTv 4K and Panasonic 820, switched through Denon 4300 to TCL RS615 and JVC RS500.

The problem: Neither the ATV nor the 820, when going through the Denon to the TV, can pass a full HDR signal.

But, both 4K sources, (at any and all 4K HDR settings) work perfectly directly from device to the TV, and work perfectly through the Denon to the projector.
This is a head scratcher. It almost sounds like there's an issue with the TCL handling the signal when coming from the Denon but that's just a guess. Hopefully someone with experience with either the TCL or the Denon will have better ideas.

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post #1236 of 1323 Old 07-31-2019, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by sasquatch1287 View Post
Hello,

I just bought a 10M RuiPro from Amazon because I'm having handshake issues with my equipment. One question I do have that I don't see on the listing is whether or not it is CL2/3 rated. Any chance anyone knows as I plan to run it in-wall. Thanks in advance for any help!
CL2/CL3 is usually used for high voltage wiring. CL2 is rated for 250V and CL3 is rated for 300V. CL ratings don't reduce smoke and gases but do reduce the possibility of shock. The CL2/CL3 rating for the Ruipro cable jackets are still in progress the last time I checked with them. Are you going to run the cable in a conduit?
I wasn’t planning to run a conduit. It’s in why I call a redneck home theater. 90% of the room is studs, but about 10 feet of the cable will be behind drywall with insulation also in the wall. Will this cause an issue by not being rated?

Pulling the cable wind stress it as I can pop the drywall panel off to run it.

Thanks for the help and let me know your thoughts.
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post #1237 of 1323 Old 07-31-2019, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by sasquatch1287 View Post
I wasn’t planning to run a conduit. It’s in why I call a redneck home theater. 90% of the room is studs, but about 10 feet of the cable will be behind drywall with insulation also in the wall. Will this cause an issue by not being rated?

Pulling the cable wind stress it as I can pop the drywall panel off to run it.

Thanks for the help and let me know your thoughts.
The idea of using conduit is to make it easier and safer to pull cable. Chances are you will be changing cables in the future again so using a conduit makes that process a whole lot easier. Bend radius is also very important so the conduit makes that process easier as well. Conduit is the ONLY way to future proof your cabling. You could also lay in some extra cabling like solid core CAT-6 (non-CCA and not CAT-6 ethernet patch cable) for future use if needed.

HDMI is (LV) low voltage so you probably won't have any issues as far as CL2/CL3 goes. You'll probably get different opinions so do some research and use your best judgement.

Low voltage ratings are usually given as CL/CM/CMG. CL is used for audio/video and CM/CMG is used for ethernet. Both types of cables have passed the “vertical tray flame test” which means that they don’t normally spread flames more than 8’. The cables can be installed in walls and ceilings and you don’t have to worry about plenums or risers for home use. Most home wiring is done with cables in the CL/CM category. I'll have to check with Ruipro to see what ratings they have received, if any.

I would lay the cable on the floor and thoroughly test it out before final installation just to make sure it's going to meet your needs.

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post #1238 of 1323 Old 08-01-2019, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
The Dolby Vision tests that failed with the Denon could be because the ATV4K and/or UB820 is sending Low Latency Dolby Vision (Player Led). I am pretty sure that TCL applied a firmware update to support LLDV for XBox and/or ATV. I don't think my Denon x4200w will pass LLDV, perhaps your 4300 is the same.
Claw has figured it out! I now believe this was exactly the problem. It explains everything.

An updated TCL must support LLDV (in any mode) which is why direct always worked (no 4300 blocking LLDV in between).
The projector always worked because it only has HDR (it's not asking for Dolby Vision).
Everything worked through the TCL Computer mode probably because that mode negotiates properly without LLDV.

My 4300 was not passing LLDV, but - there was an update that now supports it. I ran the update, and presto - the 4300 now passes everything to the TCL without the need for computer mode!

I had automatic updates off on the Denon. (There were some updates which bricked quite a few units.) But let everyone learn from my mistakes, before you spend hours of time troubleshooting, make sure every component is up to date.

Thanks to all who helped,

Pip
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post #1239 of 1323 Old 08-01-2019, 06:09 PM
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^^^^ glad you go it working. Checking for current updates on all connected devices is something that we assumed you had done. Sorry for not suggesting it sooner.
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post #1240 of 1323 Old 08-01-2019, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sasquatch1287 View Post
Hello,

I just bought a 10M RuiPro from Amazon because I'm having handshake issues with my equipment. One question I do have that I don't see on the listing is whether or not it is CL2/3 rated. Any chance anyone knows as I plan to run it in-wall. Thanks in advance for any help!
I just heard back from Ruipro and their cables use CL2 rated material but they have not yet received the final certification.

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post #1241 of 1323 Old 08-02-2019, 02:40 AM
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Hello friends which one is best for 50 feet? (15 meter) I need cable for UHD 4K

RUIPRO
https://www.amazon.com/RUIPRO-4K60HZ...96&sr=8-3&th=1

or

WIREWORLD SPHERE HDMI



http://www.emavihifi.com/web_20117_1...roduct_id=9953
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post #1242 of 1323 Old 08-02-2019, 02:42 AM
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Assuming both cables 'work' in your system the delivered performance will be identical - the trick is often to get the cable to work, we have supplied many of the RuiPro4K cables and very few issues with them.

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post #1243 of 1323 Old 08-14-2019, 12:11 PM
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Excellent! A certified cable is not a 100% guarantee that it will work so it's still a bit of trial and error but at least you found another Premium High Speed HDMI cable that did work. It shouldn't be this difficult to find a cable that will work but unfortunately that's what we are stuck with.
Right on, Otto.

In our case, smooth and thin doesn't work due to resident cat.

Fortunately, cable competition is good now, so high performance, durability, reasonable cost are all available in a cable. My straight runs are 4' to 6', so nothing complicated. So far, so good. No drama, 'cept for an occasional missed or changed setting, as you've pointed out with other cases.

Thanks for your continued contribution to AVS.
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post #1244 of 1323 Old 08-18-2019, 07:26 AM
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Arrow Copper vs Glass Fiber..... Short vs Long Distance Cable runs

The Ruipro4K HDMI cables are great for long distance HDMI cable runs because the signal loss per metre is so much smaller than it is for a conventional copper cable run. I was surprised to see that the Ruipro4K cables max out at 18.2Gbps speed though. Very surprised.

So for distances above 10m you're best off buying a Ruipro4K cable.

But for distances below 10m there are more conventional copper cables that provide speeds of 21Gbps, 27Gbps and 48Gbps, all of which will actually deliver a better performance picture to your screen if your equipment is HDMI 2.0 enabled.

So if your cable run is above 10m I would recommend the Ruipro4K HDMI cable as it can deliver higher speeds than conventional copper cables at this distance all day long, but if you have a cable run of less than 10m I would recommend looking for a 21Gbps, 27Gbps or 48Gbps copper cable option as they offer better performance at this shorter distance and are actually cheaper too.

Last edited by HDMI_4K_60Hz; 08-18-2019 at 07:30 AM.
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post #1245 of 1323 Old 08-18-2019, 10:14 AM
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The Ruipro4K HDMI cables are great for long distance HDMI cable runs because the signal loss per metre is so much smaller than it is for a conventional copper cable run. I was surprised to see that the Ruipro4K cables max out at 18.2Gbps speed though. Very surprised.

So for distances above 10m you're best off buying a Ruipro4K cable.

But for distances below 10m there are more conventional copper cables that provide speeds of 21Gbps, 27Gbps and 48Gbps, all of which will actually deliver a better performance picture to your screen if your equipment is HDMI 2.0 enabled.

So if your cable run is above 10m I would recommend the Ruipro4K HDMI cable as it can deliver higher speeds than conventional copper cables at this distance all day long, but if you have a cable run of less than 10m I would recommend looking for a 21Gbps, 27Gbps or 48Gbps copper cable option as they offer better performance at this shorter distance and are actually cheaper too.
You keep posting the same stuff on the AV Forum as well. There are no cables that have been confirmed to reliably achieve these odd bandwidths (21Gbps and 27Gbps) that you keep posting about. And there are no 48Gbps passive, copper cables at 30' that have been independently confirmed to pass 48Gbps.

Please provide links to your 21Gbps, 27Gbps, or 48Gbps cable (other than the highly suspect Belkin cable). Unless you can get the actual test data sheets for the cables you purchase you're just going on what the cable mfr indicates in their marketing, which as we have seen, can be very misleading.

The hybrid fiber cables (Ruipro4k) are tested by Simplay Labs, which is an ATC. But because the cables are active, and HDMI.org does not allow for certification of active cables, they can not be labeled as certified with the QR label of authenticity. The cables are meant to meet HDMI 2.0 hardware specifications so that's why they are rated for 18Gbps. The Ruipro8k cables are still in the verification process and when released they will meet the HDMI 2.1 hardware specifications (48Gbps), provided they are installed between devices that have fully compliant HDMI 2.1 hardware (chipsets).

I've used Premium High Speed HDMI cables (passive copper) on my system and then tested Ruipro4k cables (active, hybrid fiber), for Ruipro, and they both performed the same at the same lengths.

Up to 25', Premium High Speed HDMI cables is what is recommended for 4k HDR. Over 25', hybrid fiber cables is what we recommend for 4k HDR. If you get no sparkles, drop outs, or other visual anomalies, you're getting the best pq you can. Period.

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post #1246 of 1323 Old 08-18-2019, 01:36 PM
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It sounds like we are coming at this from different perspectives, and I get the impression you are a fellow engineer?

You're effectively saying that unless you see a test report from an independent test laboratory like Simplay Labs then you won't believe any other kind of evidence you are shown regarding the speed of HDMI cables. Fair enough, you are entitled to that opinion and I imagine you may be an engineer that has to take a more cautious approach to their work, perhaps you own an installation company where you have to 100% prove that what you install in each job is going to work before you buy and install it because if you make a mistake then your reputation which you build your business off could quickly go to ruins, so I respect this.

I work in F1 in more of a creative role, which is a completely different type of job where it is ok to ignore datasheets and draw information from real world testing data whether that test data initially seems to bend the laws of convention or not, because at the end of the day real world results are real world results, and once you get a better result just once you then know it is possible all the time if you understand what is going on and bend that to your advantage. And that is just what I have done here. I have tested 18Gbps cables and they did not give me the picture quality I wanted, so then I purchased 27Gbps cables and 48Gbps cables and performed real world tests with those, and from all those tests I've shown repeatedly in my real world setup that 27Gbps and 48Gbps cables perform better than 18Gbps cables every time when connected to HDMI 2.0 ports at either end, (source and sink ends) on my PC to TV setup.

18Gbps cables always maxed out at a 4K 60Hz HDR10 4:2:0 picture.
27Gbps cables always maxed out at a 4K 60Hz HDR12 4:2:2 picture.
48Gbps cables always maxed out at a 4K 60Hz HDR12 4:2:2 picture.

I appreciate that may not make sense to you based on everything you have learnt before and what I believe your job role to be, but those are the facts and I cannot simply deny them just because it goes against what you have seen before.

The only logical reason for these test results is that HDMI 2.0 ports are capable of faster transfer speeds than 18Gbps HDMI cables, and by using a faster HDMI cable that's "designed for" but maybe not yet "independently tested at Simplay Labs" these higher speed cables are working fast enough to give the better picture quality seen in my test results above.

Sometimes you've just got to test something and if it works better than what you were using before carry on using it without necessarily knowing to the nth degree exactly what is going on and that can make you more competitive than the next person which is what F1 is all about.
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post #1247 of 1323 Old 08-18-2019, 02:48 PM
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It sounds like we are coming at this from different perspectives, and I get the impression you are a fellow engineer?

You're effectively saying that unless you see a test report from an independent test laboratory like Simplay Labs then you won't believe any other kind of evidence you are shown regarding the speed of HDMI cables. Fair enough, you are entitled to that opinion and I imagine you may be an engineer that has to take a more cautious approach to their work, perhaps you own an installation company where you have to 100% prove that what you install in each job is going to work before you buy and install it because if you make a mistake then your reputation which you build your business off could quickly go to ruins, so I respect this.

I work in F1 in more of a creative role, which is a completely different type of job where it is ok to ignore datasheets and draw information from real world testing data whether that test data initially seems to bend the laws of convention or not, because at the end of the day real world results are real world results, and once you get a better result just once you then know it is possible all the time if you understand what is going on and bend that to your advantage. And that is just what I have done here. I have tested 18Gbps cables and they did not give me the picture quality I wanted, so then I purchased 27Gbps cables and 48Gbps cables and performed real world tests with those, and from all those tests I've shown repeatedly in my real world setup that 27Gbps and 48Gbps cables perform better than 18Gbps cables every time when connected to HDMI 2.0 ports at either end, (source and sink ends) on my PC to TV setup.

18Gbps cables always maxed out at a 4K 60Hz HDR10 4:2:0 picture.
27Gbps cables always maxed out at a 4K 60Hz HDR12 4:2:2 picture.
48Gbps cables always maxed out at a 4K 60Hz HDR12 4:2:2 picture.

I appreciate that may not make sense to you based on everything you have learnt before and what I believe your job role to be, but those are the facts and I cannot simply deny them just because it goes against what you have seen before.

The only logical reason for these test results is that HDMI 2.0 ports are capable of faster transfer speeds than 18Gbps HDMI cables, and by using a faster HDMI cable that's "designed for" but maybe not yet "independently tested at Simplay Labs" these higher speed cables are working fast enough to give the better picture quality seen in my test results above.

Sometimes you've just got to test something and if it works better than what you were using before carry on using it without necessarily knowing to the nth degree exactly what is going on and that can make you more competitive than the next person which is what F1 is all about.
The HDMI 2.0 standard is just that, a standard. The maximum bandwidth allowable is 18Gbps. Anything faster than that and it is out of spec. The chipsets determine transfer rate, error correction within spec, etc. The cable just passes the data. It can not increase the bandwidth so it doesn’t make any difference what the cable is rated at as long as it meets spec. We would still like to see your link to the magical 22Gbps/27Gbps cable. If you think you get better PQ with your 27Gbps cable because you are getting more 1’s and 0’s than an 18Gbps cable then that’s your perception but it has no basis in reality. Enjoy your cables.
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post #1248 of 1323 Old 08-19-2019, 12:47 PM
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Arrow Test Results Speak for Themselves

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
The HDMI 2.0 standard is just that, a standard. The maximum bandwidth allowable is 18Gbps. Anything faster than that and it is out of spec. The chipsets determine transfer rate, error correction within spec, etc. The cable just passes the data. It can not increase the bandwidth so it doesn’t make any difference what the cable is rated at as long as it meets spec. We would still like to see your link to the magical 22Gbps/27Gbps cable. If you think you get better PQ with your 27Gbps cable because you are getting more 1’s and 0’s than an 18Gbps cable then that’s your perception but it has no basis in reality. Enjoy your cables.
Hi Otto, it would be good to understand who I am speaking to. I've been pretty clear what my background in engineering is but nothing in your profile states anything about you, your level of experience or technical knowledge. So far the only thing I know about you is that you don't believe it's possible to get a better picture from a HDMI 2.0 setup using any HDMI cables rated over 18Gbps despite the clear and concise test results I've openly shared with you and the community.

This forum should be a source of information, constantly updated with the latest information so that people can come and learn about the subject and keep up to date with latest information. It should not be a place where people come to post links to products and I hope the site management is actively monitoring and discouraging this behaviour so this site remains a learning resource.

As a fully qualified engineer I have performed relevant testing and I've made my results very clear for all to see. When used with a HDMI 2.0 setup the following cables provided me with the following picture results:

18Gbps cables always maxed out at a 4K 60Hz HDR10 4:2:0 picture.
27Gbps cables always maxed out at a 4K 60Hz HDR12 4:2:2 picture.
48Gbps cables always maxed out at a 4K 60Hz HDR12 4:2:2 picture.

Or in summary, every 27Gbps and 48Gbps HDMI cable ever tested from any brand always gave better picture results than any 18Gbps HDMI cable ever tested whether those 18Gbps cables were Certified or not.

I'm not saying go and buy a 27Gbps or 48Gbps cable, and I'm not promoting any specific cables either. I'm merely saying those are the results I got with those speed cables so I'm sure that's very useful information for others who are looking for ways to try and get a better picture if they are unhappy with what their 18Gbps HDMI cable is providing or simply want to see if they can get a better picture.

So if you don't believe me and want to test for yourself then I suggest you simply purchase any 27Gbps or 48Gbps HDMI cable and test it for yourself and if it works for you then great, but if it doesn't then simply return the cable for a full refund. You've got nothing to lose but everything to gain, so I suggest if you've no experience performing these tests with these higher speed cables then you take the time to at least test this before making judgement.

For interest sake, my setup uses a high performance graphics card on a PC and that is connected directly to an OLED TV via a 3m long HDMI cable. And the PC gives me higher performance graphics options to choose from the moment I attach a higher performance 27Gbps or 48Gbps HDMI cable. When I remove this cable and replace it with any 18Gbps HDMI cable those better performance picture options disappear. Somehow the PC knows what the best picture options available for each cable is once the HDMI cable has been attached to the TV!
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post #1249 of 1323 Old 08-19-2019, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by HDMI_4K_60Hz View Post
Hi Otto, it would be good to understand who I am speaking to. I've been pretty clear what my background in engineering is but nothing in your profile states anything about you, your level of experience or technical knowledge. So far the only thing I know about you is that you don't believe it's possible to get a better picture from a HDMI 2.0 setup using any HDMI cables rated over 18Gbps despite the clear and concise test results I've openly shared with you and the community.

This forum should be a source of information, constantly updated with the latest information so that people can come and learn about the subject and keep up to date with latest information. It should not be a place where people come to post links to products and I hope the site management is actively monitoring and discouraging this behaviour so this site remains a learning resource.

As a fully qualified engineer I have performed relevant testing and I've made my results very clear for all to see. When used with a HDMI 2.0 setup the following cables provided me with the following picture results:

18Gbps cables always maxed out at a 4K 60Hz HDR10 4:2:0 picture.
27Gbps cables always maxed out at a 4K 60Hz HDR12 4:2:2 picture.
48Gbps cables always maxed out at a 4K 60Hz HDR12 4:2:2 picture.

Or in summary, every 27Gbps and 48Gbps HDMI cable ever tested from any brand always gave better picture results than any 18Gbps HDMI cable ever tested whether those 18Gbps cables were Certified or not.

I'm not saying go and buy a 27Gbps or 48Gbps cable, and I'm not promoting any specific cables either. I'm merely saying those are the results I got with those speed cables so I'm sure that's very useful information for others who are looking for ways to try and get a better picture if they are unhappy with what their 18Gbps HDMI cable is providing or simply want to see if they can get a better picture.

So if you don't believe me and want to test for yourself then I suggest you simply purchase any 27Gbps or 48Gbps HDMI cable and test it for yourself and if it works for you then great, but if it doesn't then simply return the cable for a full refund. You've got nothing to lose but everything to gain, so I suggest if you've no experience performing these tests with these higher speed cables then you take the time to at least test this before making judgement.

For interest sake, my setup uses a high performance graphics card on a PC and that is connected directly to an OLED TV via a 3m long HDMI cable. And the PC gives me higher performance graphics options to choose from the moment I attach a higher performance 27Gbps or 48Gbps HDMI cable. When I remove this cable and replace it with any 18Gbps HDMI cable those better performance picture options disappear. Somehow the PC knows what the best picture options available for each cable is once the HDMI cable has been attached to the TV!
All we ask is that you post links to the cables you've tested so if someone else here wants to attempt to verify your results they can. Links to products are done all of the time. My cable run is 3m and I can achieve the same results as you with Premium High Speed HDMI cables and Ruipro4k cables to my 65 C8 OLED panel. I have not seen a "27Gbps" cable from a reputable source here.
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post #1250 of 1323 Old 08-19-2019, 01:30 PM
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I've been pretty clear what my background in engineering is



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post #1251 of 1323 Old 08-19-2019, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by HDMI_4K_60Hz View Post
For interest sake, my setup uses a high performance graphics card
Make/model?


Quote:
...on a PC

make/model?


Quote:
...and that is connected directly

How?


Quote:
...to an OLED TV
make/model?


Quote:
... via a 3m long HDMI cable.
make/model?


Quote:
And the PC gives me higher performance graphics options to choose from the moment I attach a higher performance 27Gbps or 48Gbps HDMI cable. When I remove this cable and replace it with any 18Gbps HDMI cable those better performance picture options disappear. Somehow the PC knows what the best picture options available for each cable is once the HDMI cable has been attached to the TV!
Darned smart PC!!
Make/model?
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post #1252 of 1323 Old 08-19-2019, 02:41 PM
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Ratman, your profile says you're 65. I'm impressed you know how to use forums! what did you do as a job before you retired?

I made my PC to my own spec hand picking all the parts I wanted to make it from. But literally any decent graphics card with a HDMI 2.0 port will work so make/model isn't important, the PC specifics of make/model etc really don't matter so long as the motherboard has a 16x PCI slot capable of working with the graphics card which most motherboards do, and the TV is an LG OLED55B8PLA 55". Computers are pretty smart these days when you download the right software, they know exactly what information they're sending and receiving, and it appears when the HDMI port of a computer handshakes with another HDMI port via a HDMI cable the PC knows how fast that HDMI link is. Clever stuff and easy to setup in the settings of your operating system and the graphics card control panel.

Definitely more options on a PC than on a media box and am surprised more people don't use their graphics cards to upscale and enhance lower resolution lower bitrate video files to give a better picture than what the on board TV graphics chips can do
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post #1253 of 1323 Old 08-19-2019, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by HDMI_4K_60Hz View Post
As a fully qualified engineer I have performed relevant testing and I've made my results very clear for all to see. When used with a HDMI 2.0 setup the following cables provided me with the following picture results:

18Gbps cables always maxed out at a 4K 60Hz HDR10 4:2:0 picture.
27Gbps cables always maxed out at a 4K 60Hz HDR12 4:2:2 picture.
48Gbps cables always maxed out at a 4K 60Hz HDR12 4:2:2 picture.
Unfortunately, all your testing has proved is whatever "18Gb/s" cables you were testing did not meet their advertised speed which, unless they were Premium Certified, is actually quite common. Even if they were Premium Certified, it is not unknown for them to fail, as individual cables are not certified, only a design/model, based on sample testing.

"4K 60Hz HDR12 4:2:2" (better called 4K/60 12-bit 4:2:2, since it does not need to be HDR) only requires 17.82Gb/s (https://community.cedia.net/blogs/da...tes-for-4k-hdr) and no HDMI 2.0 source device will attempt to send more, whatever the theoretical bandwidth of the cable it is connected to.

It is possible that you may be able to make your PC card deliver over 18Gb/s (eg. send 4K/60 12-bit 4:4:4) but that would be outside of the HDMI 2.0 spec, not what any HDMI 2.0 conformant source would attempt and 4K/60 12-bit 4:2:2 will always require only 17.82Gb/s
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post #1254 of 1323 Old 08-19-2019, 03:22 PM
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Thanks for taking interest viewing my profile.
Thanks for noting my age.
What do you do?
What is your age?
Why won't you answer questions with specifics?


What are the magic cables you rave about?



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post #1255 of 1323 Old 08-19-2019, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
All we ask is that you post links to the cables you've tested so if someone else here wants to attempt to verify your results they can. Links to products are done all of the time. My cable run is 3m and I can achieve the same results as you with Premium High Speed HDMI cables and Ruipro4k cables to my 65 C8 OLED panel. I have not seen a "27Gbps" cable from a reputable source here.
What IS good, is he is not claiming some "mystical sauce" that improves his video quality when using these >18Gb/s cables. He is saying clearly that he needed those cables to fully pass HDMI 2.0 conformant signals, hence to pass 17.82Gb/s. So, what he has proved is that his "18Gb/s" cables were, in fact, not and his "27Gb/s" and "48Gb/s" cables (whatever they were) could, like any working Premium Certified or 18Gb/s-capable fiber cable, pass 18Gb/s.
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post #1256 of 1323 Old 08-19-2019, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Thanks for taking interest viewing my profile.
Thanks for noting my age.
What do you do?
What is your age?
Why won't you answer questions with specifics?


What are the magic cables you rave about?
Even though Ratman certainly doesn't need me to defend him, your comment about his age and abilities was totally uncalled for.

We are wondering what you are trying to sell because you keep posting the same information in multiple threads here on AVS and in one thread (at least that I can see) on the AV Forums (UK equivalent of AVS) using a different user name.

From your post on AV Forums: The higher quality pictures require more data to produce which means more 1's and 0's and that's why the faster HDMI cables allow for a better picture. The maximum data speed of the HDMI 2.0 ports is 22Gbps so the best picture you can get on devices with HDMI 2.0 ports will be a 22Gbps picture. So why would you buy an 18Gbps cable to get a 22Gbps picture, it makes no sense as the 18Gbps cable is not designed to be fast enough to carry all these extra 1's and 0's.
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post #1257 of 1323 Old 08-19-2019, 04:45 PM
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Why won't you answer questions with specifics?


What are the magic cables you rave about?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
Even though Ratman certainly doesn't need me to defend him, your comment about his age and abilities was totally uncalled for.
Thanks Otto. No problem... my age is irrelevant to the discussion.
*and thankful to have made it this long!*


I'd like to see "specific" information from HDMI_4K_60Hz as requested.



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post #1258 of 1323 Old 08-19-2019, 05:12 PM
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Thanks Otto. No problem... my age is irrelevant to the discussion.
*and thankful to have made it this long!*


I'd like to see "specific" information from HDMI_4K_60Hz as requested.
If interested, he goes by AWCrypt on the AV Forums in the Cables and Switches area.
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post #1259 of 1323 Old 08-20-2019, 02:21 AM
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Arrow Interesting!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jong1 View Post
Unfortunately, all your testing has proved is whatever "18Gb/s" cables you were testing did not meet their advertised speed which, unless they were Premium Certified, is actually quite common. Even if they were Premium Certified, it is not unknown for them to fail, as individual cables are not certified, only a design/model, based on sample testing.

"4K 60Hz HDR12 4:2:2" (better called 4K/60 12-bit 4:2:2, since it does not need to be HDR) only requires 17.82Gb/s (https://community.cedia.net/blogs/da...tes-for-4k-hdr) and no HDMI 2.0 source device will attempt to send more, whatever the theoretical bandwidth of the cable it is connected to.

It is possible that you may be able to make your PC card deliver over 18Gb/s (eg. send 4K/60 12-bit 4:4:4) but that would be outside of the HDMI 2.0 spec, not what any HDMI 2.0 conformant source would attempt and 4K/60 12-bit 4:2:2 will always require only 17.82Gb/s

That's interesting and makes sense. I would have hoped every cable had passed a performance quality inspection when it was manufactured though, but maybe not if the manufacturers are using the certification to prove the design and are then choosing to save money on performance inspection costs by simply not doing that performance testing because they think the certification means they'll never get quality problems? I know you'd never get away with that in the UK but maybe in Taiwan and China etc this lack of inspection is deemed ok and maybe even common practice to save money? That then makes sense why every cost saving effort I've known in Aerospace and Motorsport projects where the accountants have tried to save money by having parts manufactured in these cheaper countries has ultimately resulted in poor part quality resulting in huge production problems and typically several months of delays to projects before the decision was ultimately made to finally bring manufacture back to more local machine shops back in the UK.

When I work through the maths theory myself I keep reaching the answer that 17.92Gbps supports 4K 60Hz 12bit 4:4:4 so I'm not sure what's going on now because none of the cables, not even the 48Gbps cables give that performance..... thinking.....

I find it curious how every 18Gbps cable I've ever tried does not match up to the 27Gbps or 48Gbps cables though. I mean I've definitely purchased Premium Certified 18Gbps cables and those didn't work as good either.... so what's going on.....

There must be more than meets the eye going on inside a HDMI cable. I mean there's obviously sound information too but I'm sure this can only be a very small fraction of the data required compared to video information. Then there must be timing information to give the CPU on the TV end enough information to stitch everything perfectly back together again, but I'm not sure how much extra information this all takes up? Oh and it's digital too so the 17.92Gbps video information must be having to be sent at least twice...... WAIT, maybe that's it.....???

Maybe 18Gbps cables can only support a 9Gbps data "picture" but the information is sent down the cable twice... 9+9=18 ? That would actually make sense as a 4:2:0 picture requires exactly 50% of the data that a 4:4:4 picture requires!!! OK, so working through these numbers I get the following which seems to tie in nicely with the results being achieved with the cables I've tested:

4K 60Hz HDR12 4:2:0 picture = 17.92Gbps video data.
4K 60Hz HDR12 4:2:2 picture = 23.89Gbps video data.
4K 60Hz HDR12 4:4:4 picture = 35.83Gbps video data.

This would explain why all the 18Gbps cables I've tested are only achieving the 4:2:0 Chroma picture. And it would also explain why the 27Gbps and 48Gbps cables are achieving the 4:2:2 Chroma picture too. The only thing it doesn't explain is why the 48Gbps cables are not achieving a 4:4:4 Chroma picture, but I imagine this simply is a result of the actual female HDMI 2.0 port reaching it's maximum data capacity and so when the two devices are handshaking they're opting to choose the next best picture standard that does work which is the 4:2:2 Chroma one.

Otto, why do you keep plugging the RuiPro4K cables. I've just found them online and they don't appear to have sold more than 20 globally and have hardly any reviews? You never answered my question when I asked you what you do for a job so I'm now wondering whether you might work for RuiPro4K?? Are you a qualified engineer?

Ratman, what can I say, if I've offended you then I'm sorry and apologise, but you have to admit, it is a rare thing for a 65 year old to be posting in forums about technical subjects such as these so when you seem to be constantly degrading the words I'm saying and joining sides with a person who appears like they may work for RuiPro4K it begins to make me question everything about your profile, it's that simple, but if you are who you say you are then I do apologise.

All I've done is provide real world test information and try to provide answers as to why the test data I'm seeing is happening 100% of the time on my test setup and since posting this information I've been constantly told this information is not true from Otto, but it is true in my setup and I'm trying to look for answers why and hopefully help other members of the community who may also be having similar problems too.

Jong1, Hi, nice to meet you. You seem like you're willing to try and provide answers, so I'm interested to know if you have enough of a background to be able to comment on the numbers I've questioned above? I mean it really seems to make sense to me but I'll happily be taught otherwise if you know what is going on and can provide some simple logical reasoning to support it
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post #1260 of 1323 Old 08-20-2019, 03:20 AM
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PS: The 22Gbps number has been mentioned in posts before. From my numbers above I would be happy to amend this to 24Gbps or possibly even higher. It's not the number which is important here though but more the idea that this explanation seems to be the only logical answer to explain why all of the 18Gbps cables I tested were not as good as the 27Gbps and 48Gbps ones.

The only other explanation is that every Premium certified 18Gbps cable I purchased and tested was faulty, in which case the percentage of faulty 18Gbps cables would appear to be significant, but this makes no sense to me. I mean no one is that unlucky surely, I mean of the many 18Gbps cables I purchased only 3 were officially certified, but if just 1 in 100 cables are manufactured faulty which seems like a realistic manufacturing target, then the probability would be about 1 in a million to have that many cables not work, so the most likely reason is that something else is going on. Of course this 1 in 100 faulty cables should be removed from the production line during performance quality testing but I'm not sure if this inspection is happening for the certified cables :/
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