TEST REPORTS | HDMI CABLES WHICH PROPERLY AND RELIABLY SUPPORT 18GBPS & HDMI 2.0b - Page 44 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1291 of 1315 Old 08-21-2019, 06:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jong1 View Post
But, to be clear, those cables are no use unless you have an HDMI 2.1 source and HDMI 2.1 display. Just changing the cable will not allow 4K/60 10-bit 4:4:4.
You, myself and others in this forum understand that completely. Just provided a link for a "cable" as requested. It's up to the poster that he/she has the hardware/chipsets to support it at each end.



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post #1292 of 1315 Old 08-21-2019, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
You, myself and others in this forum understand that completely. Just provided a link for a "cable" as requested. It's up to the poster that he/she has the hardware/chipsets to support it at each end.
Yep. That's what we've been saying. Our friend was just asked by a Senior Moderator over on AV Forms to post a link as well for his 27Gbps cable. Basically "post up or shut up" (my quotes).
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post #1293 of 1315 Old 08-21-2019, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
Yep. That's what we've been saying. Our friend was just asked by a Senior Moderator over on AV Forms to post a link as well for his 27Gbps cable. Basically "post up or shut up" (my quotes).
I've seen that too. My comment in this thread yesterday still holds true.
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post #1294 of 1315 Old 08-21-2019, 02:41 PM
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Thanks Jong1, another good and informative explanation

Sounds like TV screens are able to perform better than the HDMI 2.0 ports in them?

Do we know whether it is the HDMI 2.0 ports which are speed limiting or the chipsets those ports feed into?... If it's the chipsets then can they be made to perform better through a simple software upgrade or are the chips completely maxed out?

PS: What speed does a 4K 60Hz HDR10 4:4:4 picture need the HDMI cable to be? (I make it either 22.9Gbps or 26.89Gbps).

Simplified:
4K 60Hz HDR10 4:2:2 picture needs 17.92Gbps but the video data in that signal only takes up 9.95Gbps.
The video data in a 4K 60Hz HDR10 4:4:4 signal would take up 14.93Gbps.

So 14.93 + (17.92-9.95) = 22.90Gbps ?
Or 14.93 * (17.92 / 9.95) = 26.89Gbps ?
Or something else in which case can someone provide the math

Cheers

Last edited by HDMI_4K_60Hz; 08-21-2019 at 02:51 PM.
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post #1295 of 1315 Old 08-21-2019, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDMI_4K_60Hz View Post
Thanks Jong1, another good and informative explanation

Sounds like TV screens are able to perform better than the HDMI 2.0 ports in them?

Do we know whether it is the HDMI 2.0 ports which are speed limiting or the chipsets those ports feed into?... If it's the chipsets then can they be made to perform better through a simple software upgrade or are the chips completely maxed out?

PS: What speed does a 4K 60Hz HDR10 4:4:4 picture need the HDMI cable to be? (I make it either 22.9Gbps or 26.89Gbps).

Simplified:
4K 60Hz HDR10 4:2:2 picture needs 17.92Gbps but the video data in that signal only takes up 9.95Gbps.
The video data in a 4K 60Hz HDR10 4:4:4 signal would take up 14.93Gbps.

So 14.93 + (17.92-9.95) = 22.90Gbps ?
Or 14.93 * (17.92 / 9.95) = 26.89Gbps ?
Or something else in which case can someone provide the math

Cheers
I haven't independently verified it but Cedia show the bitrate required on their chart (looks like its 24Gbps).

I am of the belief that the chipsets currently being used are incapable of being "overdriven" to support a higher data rate via a firmware update and, even if they were, I doubt there is a way for two devices to communicate this to each other and agree to use it without inventing a new HDMI spec - "HDMI 2.0a" for sake of argument.

As all the manufacturers are busy implementing HDMI 2.1, I cannot see that happening even if, for some, it were technically possible.
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post #1296 of 1315 Old 08-21-2019, 03:09 PM
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Thanks Jong1,

So it seems reasonable that the reason 23Gbps and 27Gbps HDMi cables exist is because people have overly simplified the math just like I've just done.

PS: 4K 60Hz HDR10 4:4:4 Chroma requires 20.05Gbps ? It seems too low. I mean you'd have expected it to be at least equal to or over the 22.90Gbps number I've just calculated otherwise some of that "dead but somehow useful space data" that makes up the rest of the data stream seems to have been reduced significantly :/

Interested to know how that works
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post #1297 of 1315 Old 08-21-2019, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDMI_4K_60Hz View Post
Thanks Jong1,

So it seems reasonable that the reason 23Gbps and 27Gbps HDMi cables exist is because people have overly simplified the math just like I've just done.

PS: 4K 60Hz HDR10 4:4:4 Chroma requires 20.05Gbps ? It seems too low. I mean you'd have expected it to be at least equal to or over the 22.90Gbps number I've just calculated otherwise some of that "dead but somehow useful space data" that makes up the rest of the data stream seems to have been reduced significantly :/

Interested to know how that works
And you still continue on. @jong1 is being very patient with you, and I commend him for that, but being an "engineer" you should know this given your extensive knowledge of HDMI . I really hate to use the work troll, but dewd it's starting to look like that.
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post #1298 of 1315 Old 08-21-2019, 07:46 PM
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Looking for a 10m cable to run to my projector (going to be upgrading to a benq ht3550 next month) and looking at the ruipro hybrid cables. On amazon when clicking on ruipro as a seller they have a two different cables that seem to be the same (10m, 4k, 18gb) as far as description although they are priced a little different. Am I missing something or are they identical? Just want to make sure I buy the right one.
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post #1299 of 1315 Old 08-21-2019, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky Strike View Post
Looking for a 10m cable to run to my projector (going to be upgrading to a benq ht3550 next month) and looking at the ruipro hybrid cables. On amazon when clicking on ruipro as a seller they have a two different cables that seem to be the same (10m, 4k, 18gb) as far as description although they are priced a little different. Am I missing something or are they identical? Just want to make sure I buy the right one.
There have been some issues with Amazon and how they are listing the Ruipro4k cable. The current product number for the 4k cable should be SNAOC20V102A. At 30' (10m) you should be installing your cable in a conduit unless you have easy access to the cable.

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post #1300 of 1315 Old 08-22-2019, 01:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
And you still continue on. @jong1 is being very patient with you, and I commend him for that, but being an "engineer" you should know this given your extensive knowledge of HDMI . I really hate to use the work troll, but dewd it's starting to look like that.
Otto, to use your own words, you're way off base. Jong1 seems very knowledgeable in this area and I've already admitted to having mislead myself to the wrong conclusion based off drawing conclusions purely from my test results without knowing the more in depth information that Jong1 has kindly provided. Information which based on your experience here and seeing the mistake I was making you had ample opportunity to provide but chose not to. I'm now merely trying to understand everything about this and as Jong1 appears to be really knowledgeable and open to the idea of providing actual technical information instead of up selling RuiPro4K cables, I'm continuing on with that discussion as the numbers don't 100% make sense to me and there must be a good and valid reason for this which I'm trying to find out.

I'm not a troll. If you look at a summary of the discussion since I joined it goes like this:
1. Hi guys after having lots of problems with 18Gbps cables I've found that 27Gbps cables work better for me.
2. Hi Otto, Hi Ratman, who are you and why do you keep saying this is nonsense in a kind of bullying way whilst up selling RuiPro4K cables.
3. OK Otto and Ratman so I think you work for RuiPro, and because I think my test results are 100% correct I'm not going to allow you to bully me into not letting everyone else know that 27Gbps work better than 18Gbps cables.
4. Hi Jong1, you seem really knowledgeable, thanks for the informative information, now that I have this information I can see that I was wrong and my test results although correct for me are actually misleading.
5. Trying to make a mense with Otto and Ratman, but Otto and Ratman continue to kind of bully me.
6. Start engaging in more of a technical discussion with Jong1 as he continues to provide useful and informative information and I have natural questions after having read that information.

That's the way I see it.
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post #1301 of 1315 Old 08-22-2019, 04:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDMI_4K_60Hz View Post
Thanks Jong1,

So it seems reasonable that the reason 23Gbps and 27Gbps HDMi cables exist is because people have overly simplified the math just like I've just done.
What it really means, in my opinion, is they have just used a signal generator in lab conditions to get a theoretical speed. By comparision, you may read that CAT7 can do up to 40Gbps @50M and 100Gbps @15M, but still it is rated @10Gbps! There are no real sources for them to test against so.....!

Quote:
Originally Posted by HDMI_4K_60Hz View Post
PS: 4K 60Hz HDR10 4:4:4 Chroma requires 20.05Gbps ? It seems too low. I mean you'd have expected it to be at least equal to or over the 22.90Gbps number I've just calculated otherwise some of that "dead but somehow useful space data" that makes up the rest of the data stream seems to have been reduced significantly :/

Interested to know how that works
Yes, you are right and I was wrong . The key quote from the Cedia chart is here:
Quote:
# anticipated data rate using HDMI 2.1 methodology
It turns out, with HDMI 2.1:
Quote:
Fixed rate link (FRL), a new video transport method, is introduced to replace TMDS. FRL can
operate with 3 or 4 lanes from 3 Gbps per lane to 12 Gbps per lane for a maximum composite bit
rate of 48 Gbps. It is encoded as 16b/18b, which increases video data throughput by 12.5% over
the HDMI 2.0 8b/10b method.
(http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/l...992-0235EN.pdf).

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post #1302 of 1315 Old 08-22-2019, 07:51 AM
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I've been using the #1 rated Monoprice slimrun fiber optic cable in the 50' length that was in the original test referenced at the beginning of this thread for the last 2 years now. No problem so far, and lifetime warranty with Monoprice. This thread seems to have turned into an advertisement for another brand.

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post #1303 of 1315 Old 08-22-2019, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
There have been some issues with Amazon and how they are listing the Ruipro4k cable. The current product number for the 4k cable should be SNAOC20V102A. At 30' (10m) you should be installing your cable in a conduit unless you have easy access to the cable.
Thanks, thankfully I installed a 3" conduit and it's a straight run through the ceiling and then accessible from an adjacent unfinished room once it goes down the wall, this will be the second time i've swapped out a HDMI cable (first time was for a passive one to Redmere on a 1080p projector) and I'm so glad that I saw that advice on here about conduit before building out my room, definitely saved me $ in drywall repair.

The one amazon ad for 4k cable (this ad only has one length, 10M/32.8' length) does have model number SNAOC20V201A-10M

The other has model number SNAOC20142010 and this ad has multiple lengths (3m, 6m, 10m, 12m, 15m, up to 50m)

My current cable is 35' and it's got a little slack at the receiver and projector ends but for the most part is straight. I think stepping down to 32.8' will still work but things will be a little tight. Not to the point of putting stress on the connections but I'd likely have to reach behind the receiver and unplug the this cable if I ever wanted to turn the receiver around so I could take a look at the back or make connection changes...not that I do that often but it does happen.

That 12m length on the other ad is kind of intriguing though. Do you think that particular model number that has multiple lengths is for an older version of the cable? You think I'd be better served keeping my cable 6.5' shorter (shorter = potential for it to work better?) or giving myself a solid amount of slack at both ends?
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post #1304 of 1315 Old 08-22-2019, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenC56 View Post
I've been using the #1 rated Monoprice slimrun fiber optic cable in the 50' length that was in the original test referenced at the beginning of this thread for the last 2 years now. No problem so far, and lifetime warranty with Monoprice. This thread seems to have turned into an advertisement for another brand.
I don't think that's fair. People inevitably (and indeed hopefully!) talk about products they have experience with. Anyone can talk about their experiences with any brand/model at any time.

If more people have experience of, or have chosen to speak about, one brand that hardly counts as advertising.
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post #1305 of 1315 Old 08-22-2019, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDMI_4K_60Hz View Post
Otto, to use your own words, you're way off base. Jong1 seems very knowledgeable in this area and I've already admitted to having mislead myself to the wrong conclusion based off drawing conclusions purely from my test results without knowing the more in depth information that Jong1 has kindly provided. Information which based on your experience here and seeing the mistake I was making you had ample opportunity to provide but chose not to. I'm now merely trying to understand everything about this and as Jong1 appears to be really knowledgeable and open to the idea of providing actual technical information instead of up selling RuiPro4K cables, I'm continuing on with that discussion as the numbers don't 100% make sense to me and there must be a good and valid reason for this which I'm trying to find out.

I'm not a troll. If you look at a summary of the discussion since I joined it goes like this:
1. Hi guys after having lots of problems with 18Gbps cables I've found that 27Gbps cables work better for me.
2. Hi Otto, Hi Ratman, who are you and why do you keep saying this is nonsense in a kind of bullying way whilst up selling RuiPro4K cables.
3. OK Otto and Ratman so I think you work for RuiPro, and because I think my test results are 100% correct I'm not going to allow you to bully me into not letting everyone else know that 27Gbps work better than 18Gbps cables.
4. Hi Jong1, you seem really knowledgeable, thanks for the informative information, now that I have this information I can see that I was wrong and my test results although correct for me are actually misleading.
5. Trying to make a mense with Otto and Ratman, but Otto and Ratman continue to kind of bully me.
6. Start engaging in more of a technical discussion with Jong1 as he continues to provide useful and informative information and I have natural questions after having read that information.

That's the way I see it.
If I may paste a quote from someone on the other Forum you keep posting to he summarizes what we've been trying to tell you: As others are pointing out it is not possible to verify claims made on many webpages unless there is some form of standard testing procedure to work too - HDMI.org has its Cable and Production Plant Certification process.

I do not work for Ruipro. Ruipro first came to this forum over a year ago answering some questions about fiber and hybrid fiber cables. What they said made sense (with verifiable documentation) so some brave souls tried their cables because they were looking for solution for 4k HDR at lengths longer than about 30'. The cables worked very well so I started up a conversation with them about shorter lengths, which lead to them sending me some short length cables to test in a real-world consumer setting. We started reading more and more positive results from other members here on AVS and it became quite clear that the Ruipro4k cables, at least for now, were a viable solution for 4k HDR at the longer lengths. That's why we recommend them now for 4k HDR beyond 25' and Premium High Speed cables for runs under 25'.

The issue we have is the way you are trying to convince everyone that a reputed "27Gbps" cable produces more 1's and 0's and thus better pq than a certified and verified cable. Both of which are limited to the speed of the HDMI chipsets on either end. We, on the other hand, are just saying that unless you have a way to prove that the cable can in fact reliably pass 27Gbps, and the resultant pq can be measured, it's just your viewing experience with no verifiable data.

Maybe if you had've started the conversation with something a little less "factual" than an unknown 27Gbps cable producing better pq than a certified cable, and then posted the cable so all could look at it (specs and mfr), there could've been a better dialog.

You did post on the other Forum two cables you said list 27Gbps (but you were vague as to whether those were the actual cables you used). One was from Monster, which has a reputation for making all kinds of claims that can't be independently verified and the other one was from an in-house brand of a large European retailer, akin to Best Buy over here. That, by the way, is what precipitated the quote above.

ARROW-AV is one who has done a remarkable job in independently verifying cables from lots of different mfrs for HDMI 2.0. They are in fact verifying the new Ruipro8k cables for HDMI 2.1 now. His results would be a good place to start.

EDIT: and if I may quote myself from my post #1282 : Welcome to AVS and let's hope that you can find a legitimate cable that will work for you and your specific needs. All we can do is recommend based on our experience and knowledge of HDMI (cables, connectors, and protocols). That's not bullying.
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post #1306 of 1315 Old 08-22-2019, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky Strike View Post
The one amazon ad for 4k cable (this ad only has one length, 10M/32.8' length) does have model number SNAOC20V201A-10M

The other has model number SNAOC20142010 and this ad has multiple lengths (3m, 6m, 10m, 12m, 15m, up to 50m)
They should be the same cable. I pointed that out to Ruipro and they are aware of the confusion. It has something to do with who is reselling the cable and how they choose to advertise. To me, the product description should be as clear as glass but that's not always the case.

It's always a good idea to keep your cable length as short as is possible without affecting bend radius or putting any undo strain on the HDMI inputs. Fiber and hybrid fiber are active so they generally tend to have a thinner gauge wire and have more flexibility, just like their copper-only active counterparts, but it's still best to keep your run as short as is reasonable.
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post #1307 of 1315 Old 08-22-2019, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenC56 View Post
I've been using the #1 rated Monoprice slimrun fiber optic cable in the 50' length that was in the original test referenced at the beginning of this thread for the last 2 years now. No problem so far, and lifetime warranty with Monoprice. This thread seems to have turned into an advertisement for another brand.
We mention Ruipro cables a lot because that's what a lot of users have turned to for long 4k HDR runs. We see more positive reports with them from actual users than from any other brand so that seems to be what is working best. Their physical construction is different from fiber only cables which will probably give them better longevity than just an active fiber cable only. The bottom line is that if you have a cable that is still meeting your needs, there's no reason to change until you feel you need to. If someone is looking for the latest iteration in fiber cable technology, then hybrid fiber (from any mfr) should be considered. Hardly an ad for one company over another.

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post #1308 of 1315 Old 08-22-2019, 12:29 PM
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'It has something to do with who is reselling the cable and how they choose to advertise’ Amazon and its crazy listing system.


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+1.

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post #1310 of 1315 Old 08-23-2019, 08:51 AM
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I messaged Ruipro through Amazon just asking if there was a difference between the two listings and got this response.


Thank you for your interest in our cable.
They have same techonology, the difference is that the 201A-10M could not been bended much on the area nearby the plugs.
Except the above, the other features are same.
Thank you,

B/Regards
Thomas



Although I can't tell if he meant that the 201A labeled cable is reinforced at the plugs (hence making it harder to bend in those last couple inches....which is good) or if it was weaker at that area (it can't bend as much without damaging the cable...which is bad). I guess it doesn't matter much to me since I ending up buying that one (it had a bigger discount on amazon) and in my setup there isn't a need for a significant bend at the receiver or projector. Just thought I'd post this here for others shopping for the cables and wanting info.
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post #1311 of 1315 Old 08-23-2019, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky Strike View Post
I messaged Ruipro through Amazon just asking if there was a difference between the two listings and got this response.


Thank you for your interest in our cable.
They have same techonology, the difference is that the 201A-10M could not been bended much on the area nearby the plugs.
Except the above, the other features are same.
Thank you,

B/Regards
Thomas



Although I can't tell if he meant that the 201A labeled cable is reinforced at the plugs (hence making it harder to bend in those last couple inches....which is good) or if it was weaker at that area (it can't bend as much without damaging the cable...which is bad). I guess it doesn't matter much to me since I ending up buying that one (it had a bigger discount on amazon) and in my setup there isn't a need for a significant bend at the receiver or projector. Just thought I'd post this here for others shopping for the cables and wanting info.
Good to know. I've worked a lot with Thomas in the past and he's pretty good at responding with honest, no b.s. answers. The bend radius on the cables is fairly generous so I think he was referring having the cable almost touch the back wall so that the cable is close to a 90 degree angle to the connector. Not a good idea for any cable but at least you have your definitive answer. The cables I have on my system are looped about three times because they are a bit long so I have them neatly tied up behind my equipment so they lay nice and flat. The cables I've been testing are only 6' in length.

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post #1312 of 1315 Old 08-25-2019, 03:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Fernand View Post
Ensure you also run at least one solid core, non-CCA or non-CCS CAT6 cable to the Projector.

Sorry for asking Joe,


But what is wrong with stranded (full copper) aka patch cable?


I installed a lot of these (SFTP) CAT6A and CAT7 patch cables both through conduits and conduit-less, and never encountered any problems.

Of course I prefer solid core in fixed conditions (conduits in walls, fixed wall outlets etc). And from there continue with patch cables.

However, many times, when the cables come out of their conduit at their destination, they aren't terminated with a fixed outlet or something, but go further to e.g. a home switch, or directly plugged into a machine and you want them to terminate them with a RJ45 connector.
Because of the manual handling of such used cables, I choose to not use solid core. I think stranded patch cables are more suitable in terms of flexibility and withstanding frequent bending (within radius limits, of course), re-pluggin in/out, etc.
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post #1313 of 1315 Old 08-25-2019, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitfield View Post
Sorry for asking Joe,


But what is wrong with stranded (full copper) aka patch cable?


I installed a lot of these (SFTP) CAT6A and CAT7 patch cables both through conduits and conduit-less, and never encountered any problems.

Of course I prefer solid core in fixed conditions (conduits in walls, fixed wall outlets etc). And from there continue with patch cables.

However, many times, when the cables come out of their conduit at their destination, they aren't terminated with a fixed outlet or something, but go further to e.g. a home switch, or directly plugged into a machine and you want them to terminate them with a RJ45 connector.
Because of the manual handling of such used cables, I choose to not use solid core. I think stranded patch cables are more suitable in terms of flexibility and withstanding frequent bending (within radius limits, of course), re-pluggin in/out, etc.
Solid core CAT-6 cables usually have a thicker wire gauge, are pure copper (not Copper Coated Aluminum), and better insulated. You can terminate them with either a punch down keystone jack to extend an ethernet connection or terminate them with some form of active termination, like HDBT, to extend an HDMI connection.

I use solid core CAT-6 to extend my ethernet connection (close to 200') to hardwire our HTS's. They are terminated at the wall with punch down keystone jacks then connect to a gigabit switch via high quality CAT-6 ethernet cables. We have zero issues streaming 4k HDR. With the use of a conduit, it is easy to control bend radius so that becomes a non-issue. Solid core CAT-6 offers more flexibility because you can easily change the termination point should you choose to do so at a later date. You can lay in an extra cable or two for possible future use even if you're not sure what the use will be at time of installation.

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post #1314 of 1315 Old 08-28-2019, 09:46 AM
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'But what is wrong with stranded (full copper) aka patch cable?' - I would be running the CAT6 cable as a backup 'video' cable and planning for current or future generation HDBT Extender technology.

HDBT recommends, and our experience as installers concurs, that solid core rather than stranded is best for high bandwidth video.

Joe

Octava Inc. Multi-cast HD over LAN solutions.

RuiPro UK and EU Sales and Support

The Media Factory. Residential and Commercial systems.
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post #1315 of 1315 Old 09-10-2019, 01:02 AM
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Sorry for my late reply guys, thanks to both for explaining.



Cheers
Whitfield
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