65-80ft / 20-25m long run hdmi cable for 1080p, passive, active, copper, fiber? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 19 Old 03-04-2019, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
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65-80ft / 20-25m long run hdmi cable for 1080p, passive, active, copper, fiber, hdbt?

Hello,

I need to buy a long run cable for a public venue. The goal is to connect laptops on stage directly to our projector for audiovisual performances. We need about 20/25m (65/80ft) in order to have the cable not running in the middle of the audience. It will not be a fixed install, the cable will be plugged on demand only (probably once every 1-2 month), so we need something sturdy that won't break on first twistings or people walking on it, and we only need 1920x1080p output, no 4k or anything. I want to avoid CAT6 with converters, it's too complicated. Fiber looks interesting, but it is pricey and it looks less robust than a copper cable with additional outer reinforcement (but maybe it's a false idea).

According to hdmi.org:
Quote:
Active Cables & Boosters Using active electronics to boost and clean up the signal can effectively double the range of a standard twisted-copper HDMI cable. Cable runs of up to 30 meters are the norm for this type of solution, which may be deployed as either a standalone signal management device, i.e., a repeater or booster box, or incorporated into the manufacture of the cable itself. Boxes are available in many configurations, usually incorporating both booster and equalization functions, and may also serve as repeaters or switchers. Active cables, on the other hand, embed the signal-enhancement electronics in the cable itself, with chips embedded in the connector housings. They are unidirectional, using different modules at the transmit and receive ends of the cable. All the technologies in this category require external power.
Beware products that draw power from the +5V power line. Although these may work in certain applications, different components draw varying amount of power from that line to communicate with each other. A cable that draws power from the HDMI cable may fail when components and the active components in the cable or external booster are all drawing from the same source.
(from https://www.hdmi.org/installers/longcablelengths.aspx)

My questions are the following:

According to hdmi.org above, we could get away with an active cable, is this correct? That would be the easiest and cheapest solution from what I looked around. Or do we need something with a built-in booster?
Also, what is the +5V issue described above exactly? I am not sure I understand in which case(s) there could be a problem.

If you have any cable suggestion that do work from experience for a similar application, then I'll gladly take them as well!

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post #2 of 19 Old 03-04-2019, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by IndepTheater View Post
Hello,

I need to buy a long run cable for a public venue. The goal is to connect laptops on stage directly to our projector for audiovisual performances. We need about 20/25m (65/80ft) in order to have the cable not running in the middle of the audience. It will not be a fixed install, the cable will be plugged on demand only (probably once every 1-2 month), so we need something sturdy that won't break on first twistings or people walking on it, and we only need 1920x1080p output, no 4k or anything. I want to avoid CAT6 with converters, it's too complicated. Fiber looks interesting, but it is pricey and it looks less robust than a copper cable with additional outer reinforcement (but maybe it's a false idea).

According to hdmi.org:

(from https://www.hdmi.org/installers/longcablelengths.aspx)

My questions are the following:

According to hdmi.org above, we could get away with an active cable, is this correct? That would be the easiest and cheapest solution from what I looked around. Or do we need something with a built-in booster?
Also, what is the +5V issue described above exactly? I am not sure I understand in which case(s) there could be a problem.

If you have any cable suggestion that do work from experience for a similar application, then I'll gladly take them as well!

80' can be difficult with any cable but if you know for sure that you won't go beyond 1080p, and you don't need to do ARC, than an active, copper-based cable should work ok. A thicker gauge wire would be beneficial as well because that gives you a little more insurance that the signal will propagate without issues and gives the cable some protection if folks walk on it (which regardless I would try to avoid as much as possible). An active cable is "uni-directional" in that it needs to be installed source to sink because the sink end (tv side) has a chipset in it that draws a little power from the HDMI input. If you get a passive cable, you can add an active extender (booster) but you'll need a power source for that. An active cable would be your best bet. 5V is the draw from the HDMI input.



Hybrid fiber is also an active cable, and that would work very nicely. The cable is a small diameter cable and very flexible. But, if there is any possibility that someone may walk on it that would not be good. And yes, they are expensive, especially at that length. For hybrid fiber, I'l recommend Ruipro.


CAT-6 is not recommended unless you go with solid core CAT-6 (non-CCA and not CAT-6 ethernet patch cable) and terminate with HDBT. You will also need a power source for HDBT.

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post #3 of 19 Old 03-05-2019, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks!

I'm having trouble finding a 22 AWG cable that it that long, it looks like the thickest easily available ones are 24 AWG, would that (theoretically) work at 80' / 25m?

Regarding the hdmi warning, "Beware products that draw power from the +5V power line. Although these may work in certain applications, different components draw varying amount of power from that line to communicate with each other. A cable that draws power from the HDMI cable may fail when components and the active components in the cable or external booster are all drawing from the same source.", - if I understand correctly it means all active cables draw this +5V and there are problems when multiple active cables are used within the same component, for example an AV receiver? But in this case, simply computer into projector it won't be an issue?

Oh, and one more thing, are nylon braided cables really more reinforced/resistant than a regular one or is it just a fancy look?

Thanks!

Last edited by IndepTheater; 03-05-2019 at 11:22 AM.
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post #4 of 19 Old 03-05-2019, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndepTheater View Post
Thanks!

I'm having trouble finding a 22 AWG cable that it that long, it looks like the thickest easily available ones are 24 AWG, would that (theoretically) work at 80' / 25m?

Regarding the hdmi warning, "Beware products that draw power from the +5V power line. Although these may work in certain applications, different components draw varying amount of power from that line to communicate with each other. A cable that draws power from the HDMI cable may fail when components and the active components in the cable or external booster are all drawing from the same source.", - if I understand correctly it means all active cables draw this +5V and there are problems when multiple active cables are used within the same component, for example an AV receiver? But in this case, simply computer into projector it won't be an issue?

Oh, and one more thing, are nylon braided cables really more reinforced/resistant than a regular one or is it just a fancy look?

Thanks!

Unfortunately the biggest drawback with thicker gauge cable is that you lose flexibility (bend radius) and increase the strain on the HDMI input. Sort of damned if you do and damned if you don't. The best connection is a single cable, source to sink. You can have multiple active cables connected to a single receiver (I do that), from separate sources, and each cable will draw about 5v from the HDMI input that it is connected to when the signal is present. A computer to projector is a single source to sink, even if there is a receiver in between. This is how most HTS are setup. I have two sources going into my my receiver with no issues. Obviously I only use one source at a time.


A nylon reinforced cable might give the cable a little more protection from being stepped on, or a little more protection from too sharp of a bend radius, but I think they are more for looks than anything else.

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post #5 of 19 Old 03-05-2019, 02:49 PM
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I want to avoid CAT6 with converters, it's too complicated.

I would ignore your inner voice

HDMI over HDBT or Hybrid Fibre are both potentially ideal for you.

Where you are not installing the cable and it is being packed away after every use I would tend to favour the HDBT Route using a decent quality non-CCA CAT6 cable - we supply both options all of the time and I look after my local Community Centre AV kit where I now have HDBT and Hybrid Fibre available.

I would also ensure you had a few additional 'tools' in your tool kit inc a VGA to HDMI converter, an HDFury DR HDMI EDID manager, an HDMI to 2RCA breakout box and a couple of 5V power injectors if you go the Hybrid Fibre Route.

Which Projector do you have? Many 'Installation' grade Projectors now come equipped with an onboard HDBT Receiver so you only require a Transmitter.

Have a word with Jeff in the Octava office in Atlanta who can give you more info on HDBT for Pro applications - https://octavainc.com

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post #6 of 19 Old 03-05-2019, 04:30 PM - Thread Starter
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The projector is a Panasonic PTMZ770 and it indeed has an HDBaseT "Digital Link" RJ45 input. I didn't think of that when I said I wanted to avoid CAT converters, I was thinking something like source -> hdmi -> converter -> cat -> converter -> hdmi -> projector.

So we could just go source -> hdmi -> converter -> cat -> projector?

If so, it could be a solution to always have the CAT cable plugged in and run all the way for ~15m to the transmitter on stage, and only have a 5/7m regular hdmi cable on stage that we install/pack away on demand. However, that sound like a more expensive solution than a $60 active cable. A very quick google search only shows $200+ transmitters, correct?
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post #7 of 19 Old 03-06-2019, 02:27 AM
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Expense vs Reliability - I know which one is lower cost is the long run.

See the Link I provided and talk with Jeff about an HDBT TX only.

Source > HDMI > HDBT TX > CAT6 > Digital Link Input on the Projector will work well.

If you prefer the 'Fibre' route I find our RuiPro Hybrid cables to be more system friendly due to retaining copper for the HDMI Comms. channel - all Fibre solutions can be slow to handshake or not handshake.

We find many customers/visitors have VGA Out on Laptops plus I would add some Mac compatible Adapters as many folk who travel with MacBook Air do not carry converters with them.

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post #8 of 19 Old 03-06-2019, 07:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Fernand View Post
I would ignore your inner voice
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Fernand View Post
Expense vs Reliability - I know which one is lower cost is the long run.


I've looked into Octava, they seem to have a dealer here (we're in Switzerland), expensive stuff though.

Anyway, thinking about it, if a solution can be had for rather cheap, why not. We're not a professionnal venue though, it's more like a "community theater" or "film society", it's all voluntary run and non-profit, our budget is tight
I guess it would be easier to find a really good and robust 5-7m hdmi cable only for the stage that we could install/pack away, and have the rest as a fixed installation.

I don't seek approval on a particular product, but just to be sure, are those devices that would work? (I'm linking to manufacturers websites):

https://www.purelink.de/en/signal-ex...t-extender-set
https://www.blackbox.com/en-us/store...ter/AVS-HDB-TX

About the RJ45 cable, I see everywhere a "non-CCA" cable is needed doe HDBaseT - is it something that is really particular, or are most CAT6 non-CCA already and I just need to pay attention not to get something too cheap?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndepTheater View Post


I
About the RJ45 cable, I see everywhere a "non-CCA" cable is needed doe HDBaseT - is it something that is really particular, or are most CAT6 non-CCA already and I just need to pay attention not to get something too cheap?

CCA is Copper Coated Aluminum. You don't want that, but a lot of wire is done that way. It's cheaper. What you want is solid copper wire in any cabling. Solid core CAT-6 is just that, solid copper wire.
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post #10 of 19 Old 03-06-2019, 10:58 AM
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'We're not a professionnal venue' - though folk expect the same level of presentation a 'paid for' venue delivers, I know as I spend a lot of time delivering the AV and IT at my local Community Centre

HDBT - in theory any HDBT TX will work with the HDBT RX embedded in your Projector! We have Digital Signage across five sites (Scotland and the US) for one of our corporate clients which use a lot of HDBT into Panasonic 'Digital Link' equipped Display devices.

CCA - you need to look out for and avoid it, do not assume you are being supplied solid core copper.

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post #11 of 19 Old 03-07-2019, 05:06 PM - Thread Starter
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thanks Joe, this has been tremendously helpful! I think I can get our committee to reconsider and spend a bit more once we've done a few more budget calculations closer to the end of the year
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post #12 of 19 Old 05-18-2019, 05:32 PM - Thread Starter
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hey there,

I am currently looking at potential HDBT Tx devices but I have some questions. I am looking at the cheapest possible option, and I have found some "HDMI Cat.X Extenders" that don't mention HDBT. Is this another (older?) technology that would not work with our projector?

This is an example of an extender set, but the transmitter is also sold separately:
https://www.purelink.de/en/signal-ex...der-set?c=2042
There seems to be some infrared control signal needed?

Otherwise I'll just look for something guaranteed to be HDBT, like this?
https://www.purelink.de/en/signal-ex...m-1080p?c=2297

(I'm linking to this brand because it seems to be the cheapest online in the country)
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HDBT was developed by Valens and is now embedded into many 'Pro' Projectors and Display devices - you must use a TX (Transmitter) device equipped with an HDBT chip set when looking to connect to the HDBT RX (Receiver) socket on your projector.

There are plenty of non-HDBT HDMI over CAT solutions available - and just like HDBT you must use matching TX (Transmitter) and RX (Receiver) devices to have a working system.

HDBT tends to be more costly than other solutions are there are licence fees to pay by manufacturers in addition to purchasing the required chip sets.

You could ignore the HDBT RX socket on your projector and go with a non-HDBT TX/RX combination into the HDMI socket on the Projector.

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thanks Joe, that's clear now!
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I'm sorry, the more I try to go forward with this, the more questions seem to arise...

So, I've isolated potential HDBT Tx devices, but I am now at a loss looking at which CAT6 cable to purchase.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
CAT-6 is not recommended unless you go with solid core CAT-6 (non-CCA and not CAT-6 ethernet patch cable) and terminate with HDBT. You will also need a power source for HDBT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
CCA is Copper Coated Aluminum. You don't want that, but a lot of wire is done that way. It's cheaper. What you want is solid copper wire in any cabling. Solid core CAT-6 is just that, solid copper wire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Fernand View Post
CCA - you need to look out for and avoid it, do not assume you are being supplied solid core copper.
Ok, so if I understand correctly, the usual Ethernet cable should be avoided because it usually is CCA. I tried searching for HDBaseT approved/specific cables, but most if not all results are only huge bulk CAT6 cabling which cost a fortune.

I just want an affordable, basic premade cable, 20 or 25m that supports HDBaseT... what/where should I be looking for? Also which shielding (or not)? I've seen several websites mentioning the opposite...

This is the only cable I found that might work. Is that the case or not...? Lindy solid core:
https://www.lindy.co.uk/cables-adapt...ble-grey-p9051

They even have two types, U/UTP or F/UTP: https://www.lindy.co.uk/cables-adapt...olid-core-t488

Looking forward to your replies and advices...

Thanks!
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post #16 of 19 Old 05-25-2019, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndepTheater View Post
I'm sorry, the more I try to go forward with this, the more questions seem to arise...

So, I've isolated potential HDBT Tx devices, but I am now at a loss looking at which CAT6 cable to purchase.







Ok, so if I understand correctly, the usual Ethernet cable should be avoided because it usually is CCA. I tried searching for HDBaseT approved/specific cables, but most if not all results are only huge bulk CAT6 cabling which cost a fortune.

I just want an affordable, basic premade cable, 20 or 25m that supports HDBaseT... what/where should I be looking for? Also which shielding (or not)? I've seen several websites mentioning the opposite...

This is the only cable I found that might work. Is that the case or not...? Lindy solid core:
https://www.lindy.co.uk/cables-adapt...ble-grey-p9051

They even have two types, U/UTP or F/UTP: https://www.lindy.co.uk/cables-adapt...olid-core-t488

Looking forward to your replies and advices...

Thanks!
I use solid core CAT-6 purchased from Sewell, product # SW-30625. Yes, you will probably have to purchase it in bulk. It costs somewhere between $40 and $50 per box from Amazon, and you will have to terminate it yourself. I purchased mine directly from Sewell. What you're looking for is a cable with the following specs:

23AWG
Gigabit ethernet
550 Mhz
100 Mbps TPDDI
155 Mbps ATM
IEEE 802.3
IEEE 802.5
IEEE 802.12
ISDN
Voice
UL Certified
CM
UTP
Unshielded
non-terminated

You can go cheaper but you'll get what you pay for. If you install your cabling in a conduit it will be easy to swap out if it doesn't meet your expectations. Joe is our "in-house" HDBT guru so follow heed his advice .
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post #17 of 19 Old 05-27-2019, 02:50 AM
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CCA - is not the 'usual' standard, it is something which has appeared as more and more house builders have started to flood wire new homes and wanted the lowest cost option available.

Solid core - rather than 'stranded' is the best option for carrying HDBT or any other high bandwidth 'video over CAT' signal, stranded is what is used for 'patch' cables in racks where you want a more flexible cable.

HDBT CAT6 - there are a few manufacturers who have received a 'seal of approval' for cables which meet a standard as defined by HDBT, many are only available as a 305m Drum/Box, though some suppliers such as Black Box will supply pre-terminated cables cut to your preferred length.

UTP - is the norm in Residential systems as unless the complete system is designed to provide an unbroken route to earth all you are doing with FTP is introducing a stiffer, harder to work with, more costly cable which can on occasion introduce problems which a UTP cable will not. We have installed miles and miles of the Black Box GigaTrue, UTP, Solid core CAT6 for HDBT and UHD over LAN and have had zero issues.

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post #18 of 19 Old 05-27-2019, 04:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks! I'll contact Black Box, they seem to have an office in Switzerland.
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post #19 of 19 Old 06-12-2019, 02:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Grr, this is proving more and more annoying. Black Box won't get back to me.

I found a 30m readymade, HDBaseT certified cable from TTL Network, but it's S/FTP. Can I assume that "if it's certified it should work"?

https://www.ttl-network.de/news-deta...tch-cable.html

So much time for a single cable
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