HDMI victim: PC+Receiver+Projector=NoPicture - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 14 Old 05-06-2019, 09:28 PM - Thread Starter
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HDMI victim: PC+Receiver+Projector=NoPicture

Various Intel Atom NUC style PCs with Intel graphics running Windows 10 connecting via Marantz NR1603 receiver to Sony VPL-HW50ES projector.

Result: No Picture.

Did not have this problem with prior PC with NVidia Graphics Card.

When connecting PCs directly to projector, picture works fine. But i do need the HDMI audio (of course).

Workaround right now: Gefen HDMI detective plus in between PC and Marantz receiver. BUT: Can not play back HDCP material.

Quite frustrating. I do understand that the poor receiver has some nasty HDMI/EDID job to do, merging whatever the projector announces with the audio part of the projector, and what the receiver can do OSD for, but i totally can not figure out, which component now SUCKS! Is it those low end Intel Atom PCs ? Is it the receiver ? Is there any workaround with which i don't stumble across HDCP issues ? Would newer receivers do a better job ? How is this something not tested well in these type of devices ?
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post #2 of 14 Old 05-07-2019, 02:31 AM
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Your NUC (PC) is likely expecting the connected Sink (usually a Monitor) to be Outputting a constant EDID - which the AVR will not be doing, that is where an 'EDID Manager' is required between the NUC and the AVR.

HDCP - that doesn't make sense as the Gefen device is HDCP compliant, though it will not pass a 4K UHD, HDCP 2.2 signal - look instead at the HDFury 'Dr HDMI 4K'.

NUC - you may be able to change its power management or EDID settings to allow it to work via the AVR.

AVR - no guarantee that any AVR will work with the NUC within inserting an EDID Manager (HDFury being my suggestion) between the NUC and the AVR.

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post #3 of 14 Old 05-07-2019, 05:20 AM
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What do you use the NUC for? I have an Intel NUC that I use as my Plex Media Server, but I connect it via gigabit ethernet and use my Nvidia Shield to watch content.
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post #4 of 14 Old 05-29-2019, 06:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by m0j0 View Post
What do you use the NUC for? I have an Intel NUC that I use as my Plex Media Server, but I connect it via gigabit ethernet and use my Nvidia Shield to watch content.
Just use it as media player, doubles also as media player when being on the road (business trip/vacations -> hotel TV). Of course, there is no problem when connecting directly to a TV set, only to receivers.

There is quite a bunch of HDMI emulators on the market, so these EDID issues are seemingly quite common when you do more than a direct HDMI cable from PC to TV/Display.

These EDID incompatibility issues and needs for emulators are really a sore spot of HDMI and even more so IMHO of how bad Intels HDMI support is. It would be absolutely no problem to build a user friendly SW EDID emulation into Intels GPU drivers. NVidia card EDID support seems to be a lot better.

Last edited by te36; 05-29-2019 at 07:05 AM.
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post #5 of 14 Old 05-29-2019, 06:42 AM - Thread Starter
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I just bought the following EDID emulator because it was the only one i could find that was small, inexpensive and could clone the EDID of displays just by connecting to them:

http://ftp.assmann.com/pub/DA-/DA-70...h_20180331.pdf

I could actually successfully clone the EDID data from my 1080p 3D projektor and make HDMI 1.4 3D modes work through the receiver. Alas, the produkt is really silly designed: The cloned data is auto-removed when the HDMI receiver side is disconnected for more than 10 seconds: In normal operations the EDID emulator would be between PC and AV-Receiver, so you only need to switch off the AV-Receiver more than 10 seconds before switching off the PC, and there goes your cloned HDMI data. How silly is this.

Oh well. I'll probably be able to clone the EDID data into the Gefen or another completely overpriced and difficult to handle product as well.
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post #6 of 14 Old 05-29-2019, 11:56 AM
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'Oh well. I'll probably be able to clone the EDID data into the Gefen or another completely overpriced and difficult to handle product as well' - or stick with a device which does not work, but it is a great price

The HDFury Dr HDMI 4K is the option I would go with.

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post #7 of 14 Old 05-30-2019, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes. looks like a nice product, somehow i didn't find it back when i bought the gefen detective.

Its just that when the media player costs $200 and the receiver $400, than an additional $100 HDMI fixer doesn't look reasonable. Actually for the simple setup i have, the need to fixup HDMI is to me quite unreasonable, and the most frustrating part is that i can only guess whose fault it is - intel graphics driver ? marantz receiver ? that alone if of course the welcome excuse for product support:

"Your HDMI problem are because of the other product you use. Not ours".
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post #8 of 14 Old 05-31-2019, 08:54 AM
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'an additional $100 HDMI fixer doesn't look reasonable' - it does if it fixes the problem!

You could try running Monitor Asset Manager by EnTech on the NUC - that will let you see what it is 'seeing', assuming it runs on the NUC try comparing what it reads 'direct' to the Display vs. via the AVR.

https://www.entechtaiwan.com/util/moninfo.shtm

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post #9 of 14 Old 06-04-2019, 12:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Fernand View Post
'an additional $100 HDMI fixer doesn't look reasonable' - it does if it fixes the problem!
I mean a $200 NUC isn't really a $200 value if it needs another $100 adapter to make it work. This bad HDMI support of the NUC makes it cheap, not inexpensive.

I now bought a "kwmobile HDMI EDID Manager", $20 on amazon, and lo and behold, one of the 16 settings was the 1080p with 3D support that i am looking for. *yeah*.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Fernand View Post
You could try running Monitor Asset Manager by EnTech on the NUC - that will let you see what it is 'seeing', assuming it runs on the NUC try comparing what it reads 'direct' to the Display vs. via the AVR.

https://www.entechtaiwan.com/util/moninfo.shtm

Joe
Yes, looks interesting, but i can't figure out from its output when an EDID supports 3D, and when not. They all just show 1920x1080. somwhere there must be a difference.

The other stuff i would like to understand is what the NUC does when being directly connected to the marantz receiver - and i see black picture. Is the NUC trying to generrate a video signal, if so which resolution.

With the working EDID emulator for $20, the EnTech software reports an active EDID showing the Marantz. Even more puzzling. the other adapters where having some Samsung EDID data block. Wonder if this $20 EDID emulator copies the connected device string part of the EDID data block and only overides the data items ?

Crazy EDID stuff ;-))
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post #10 of 14 Old 06-05-2019, 08:10 AM - Thread Starter
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More funny experiences with that kwmobile EDID emulator:

It has 16 settings, a few of them claiming to be 1080p 3D, and indeed when i select one of those, the NOC windows 10 settings show 1920x1080 with 3D. When i select other settings, the NUC does not show 3D. Great.

Interestingly, the kwmobile also has what i would call passtrough, copy EDID from sink. And lo and behold, that too gives picture with 3D, even though my (obviously wrong) logic tells me it shouldn't show any picture because it should be the same as if i wouldn't use the EDID emulator. So either i totally do not understand what is going on (very likely), or the root reason for me not getting any picture without any EDID gadget is that the marantz receiver somehow messes something up (in the EDID data ?), and the kwmobile fixes it up. It surely can't be a cabling issue, because its just a 1 ft distance NUC to receiver and i tried various cables.

The main downside of the kwmobile seems to be that it really depends on the sink to be present to do its job: Windows 10 desktop on NOC 1920x1080, full of windows. switch off receiver for the night, but keep NUC running, e.g.: because its running something. next day, switch on receiver as well, all windows are downsized, stuffed into a corner, as if the NOC had in the meantime detected what looks like a 1024x768 picture.

Now, when i stack the two EDID gadgets, NUC-kwmobile-digitus-receiver-projector, then i can avoid this problem. The digitus does provide EDID data even when the receiver is switched off, and the kwmobile then overrides the graphics modes to make the NUC believe 3D mode is supported. And i already thought i had wasted $18 on the digitus EDID emulator.

Did i say crazy EDID ? ;-)
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post #11 of 14 Old 06-06-2019, 10:48 AM
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NUC > AVR - potentially the NUC is not 'seeing' the AVR so not outputting a signal.

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post #12 of 14 Old 06-09-2019, 10:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, thats what i think too, but how to prove that theory.

Eg.: Instead of one of the EDID inserters, i just put an HDMI splitter into the NUC->AVR HDMI connection. This also resulted in picture. Alas, 2D only. This is one of those splitters that also double as a HDCP stripper, so arguably, it would also "massage" the signal in some shape or form.

The main issue for my diagnostics game is that none of the EDID software for PC gives me a good indication whether there is 3D in the EDID or not. I need to go back when i have more time and try them all out 1 by one again. Without that, i have no independent diagnosis whether 3D should work other than believing the NUC showing me "1920x1080 (recommended, 3D)" or just "1920x1080 (recommended)".
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post #13 of 14 Old 06-09-2019, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
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And just to double down on my "i hate HDMI EDID" theme: Been trying to connect my desktop PC to the home theater setup:

With the discrete NVidia graphics card (1050 Ti), i never have EDID / display issues, but i am really not sure if the NVidia graphic card really cares much about the EDID from the HDMI side. I think rather not, because i can enable on the NVidia driver setup 3D even if i put one of the EDID emulators into the HDMI and set it to a mode that definitely does not include 3D. So NVidia seems to be doing a prudent thing there, allowing effectively to override whatever comes in as EDID.

The Motherboard Intel GPU HDMI port on the other side (Core i7-7500) seems differently bad than the NUC type Atom HDMI: I do not have any problem to get 2D picture to the AVR (without any gadfget in the cable), but i have not found anything that will make windows 10 believe there is a 3D capable sink connected, except to directly connect the projector: When i connect the kwmobile EDID inserter, none of the explicit 3D modes, nor the passthrough work, they all just give 2D picture. When i use the assman edid inserter and make it clone the Sony projector EDID, then indeed, i do get 3D video - but then the Intel driver on the NUC also says that there is no audio. Aka: The Intel driver on this GPU does solely seem to believe what the EDID says about audio, whereas the Intel driver for the Atom GPU does not and simply allows to output audio.

Both PC (atom, desktop) of course run same latest win 10 pro.
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post #14 of 14 Old 10-02-2019, 12:33 PM
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te36, if you are still looking for an answer, I have had a similarly exhausting experience with an Intel NUC and this is what I found.

To cut a long story short, the answer for me lay in a mismatch between screen refresh rates. The thing to do is as follows.

On your NUC, assuming it's Windows 10, right click on the screen and click on Display properties.

Look at the resolution your NUC is putting out and consider whether it is correct.

Don't stop there. Scroll down to Advanced display properties and click on that.

Then click on Display adaptor properties for Display 1 (or whichever display we're talking about.)

A pop-up panel opens but beware - it may be hidden behind all your other windows.

Very important - now click on List all modes which you may not notice at the bottom of the panel.

You will get a fascinating drop-down list of all the resolution and refresh rate options the NUC is seeing. Keep that in mind while you close the drop-down list for the moment.

Still in the same panel, click the Monitor tab at the top. You will then see what refresh rate your NUC is actually putting out and my tentative bet is that it's the wrong one.

You can try changing the refresh rate to the correct one in either of the drop-down menus I've just described, but based on my experience, you may not be offered the correct option. (Meaning you may only get the option of 30Hz when what you want and need is 60Hz.)

If that's the case, what you need to do is plug the NUC into something else - a screen or something - that WILL produce the option you need in the NUC, then you can select that option in the NUC and hit Apply which will fix it in the NUC, and then when you plug the NUC back into your AV receiver and the projector, the NUC should push out your new (corrected) refresh rate and everything should work properly.

Even if this doesn't help you, I hope it may help someone else who stumbles upon this thread via Google, as I did.
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