HDMI cables which properly and reliably support 48 Gbps & HDMI 2.1 - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 184 Old 06-05-2019, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TrendSetterX View Post
Taking the listed specs literally, that new cable will fail for all compressed 2.1 formats.
Sorry, I don't follow... Why exactly will these cables "fail for all compressed 2.1 formats"

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post #32 of 184 Old 06-05-2019, 09:36 AM
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HDMI cables which properly and reliably support 48 Gbps & HDMI 2.1

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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Sorry, I don't follow... Why exactly will these cables "fail for all compressed 2.1 formats"



Because there’s a lot of marketing fluff there without any mention of supporting compressed but it does specifically mention uncompressed support.

Also, and more importantly, because Valens, the largest and most referenced HDMI extension technology company (who’s tech is used in the vast majority of extension devices) doesn’t even have chips or firmware yet to support it - and RUIPRO beating them to the punch is slim to none.

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post #33 of 184 Old 06-05-2019, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Sorry, I don't follow... Why exactly will these cables "fail for all compressed 2.1 formats"

Probably because it says "supports uncompressed 8K video". I would think, though this is just trying to reaffirm they can handle up to 48Gbps and compressed video should be indistinguishable to the cable, but definitely worth checking.

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Originally Posted by TrendSetterX View Post
Because there’s a lot of marketing fluff there without any mention of supporting compressed but it does specifically mention uncompressed support.

Also, and more importantly, because Valens, the largest and most referenced HDMI extension technology company (who’s tech is used in the vast majority of extension devices) doesn’t even have chips or firmware yet to support it - and RUIPRO beating them to the punch is slim to none.
Our posts passed in the night! I think it's probably just poor wording. When it comes to what you are saying about Valens, my understanding would be that Ruipro don't need to do the compression/decompression they would expect the source/sink to do that, so they should be good, but I agree it needs testing.

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post #34 of 184 Old 06-05-2019, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by jong1 View Post
Probably because it says "supports uncompressed 8K video". I would think, though this is just trying to reaffirm they can handle up to 48Gbps and compressed video should be indistinguishable to the cable, but definitely worth checking.
Incorrect. Existing chipsets expect uncompressed hdmi content that they then compress themselves. They won’t know what to do with compressed content coming in.

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post #35 of 184 Old 06-05-2019, 09:47 AM
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I hear what you say, but I don't think we know. I don't see why the cable should care if the data it is fed is compressed or uncompressed - it's all just data. Provided it's within 48Gbps we should be good. But I fully accept, although I am an electronic engineer, I am not an HDMI signalling expert, so we will need to see.

I guess it may come down to whether Ruipro do, in fact, compress HDMI. I don't see why they would need to when sending over fiber (although it is needed over Cat cabling). I honestly don't know for sure though.

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post #36 of 184 Old 06-05-2019, 10:18 AM
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Oh, OK, sounds good. Still, may not be true of all long active fiber cables and has proven an issue in the past. I still think eARC should be part of any testing regime.

Keep in mind that active fiber cables and active hybrid fiber cables are different. I agree that eARC should be part of the testing protocols and in the case of the Ruipro hybrid fiber cables, they are. Until Ruipro is done with their HDMI 2.1 testing, they will not "jump the gun" and make claims like other cable mfrs have done. eARC does pass the testing protocols for 5m and 15m, it's just the 30m that is causing issues. Hopefully ARROW-AV will be another independent source that can verify Ruipro's and other mfrs claims. I have faith in Ruipro .

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post #37 of 184 Old 06-05-2019, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by TrendSetterX View Post
Incorrect. Existing chipsets expect uncompressed hdmi content that they then compress themselves. They won’t know what to do with compressed content coming in.

This is why all cable mfrs, even Ruipro, should list which options/features their cables have been tested for and passed. It would certainly be a long list (just looking at the compressed/uncompressed features of HDMI 2.1 is daunting) but at least the consumer would know the full capabilities of the cable. "Compatible with HDMI 2.1 Standard" is probably a short cut for meaning that all data formats covered under the HDMI 2.1 standard are supported but it's not entirely clear. Valens is mostly noted for HDBT and the supporting chipsets, and those chipsets are coming. Being an industry, leader as far as we know there could be a collaboration going on with Ruipro and Valens. Too much speculation at this point in time for any of this, especially worrying about 8k and beyond.


The major concern right now is getting reliable 4k HDR (HDMI 2.0b) to devices that are 50' and longer from the source to the sink. My guess is that the Ruipro cables, and hopefully other mfrs, will be able to achieve this and then go on to the next step which will be cables that can reliably transmit fully compliant HDMI 2.1 data. We're still a couple of years away from HDMI 2.1 devices and content being the norm so there's still plenty of time to work out the issues. Probably not for the gamers though

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post #38 of 184 Old 06-05-2019, 02:07 PM
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Oh, OK, sounds good. Still, may not be true of all long active fiber cables and has proven an issue in the past. I still think eARC should be part of any testing regime.

Keep in mind that active fiber cables and active hybrid fiber cables are different. I agree that eARC should be part of the testing protocols and in the case of the Ruipro hybrid fiber cables, they are. Until Ruipro is done with their HDMI 2.1 testing, they will not "jump the gun" and make claims like other cable mfrs have done. eARC does pass the testing protocols for 5m and 15m, it's just the 30m that is causing issues. Hopefully ARROW-AV will be another independent source that can verify Ruipro's and other mfrs claims. I have faith in Ruipro [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG].
Oops! Typo on my part. I meant to say hybrid fiber! Active fiber is a bit of a tautology I feel!

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post #39 of 184 Old 06-05-2019, 02:52 PM
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Oops! Typo on my part. I meant to say hybrid fiber! Active fiber is a bit of a tautology I feel!

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post #40 of 184 Old 06-13-2019, 10:26 AM
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Do we know if any of the 10-15 meter fiber optic HDMI cables support eARC?
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post #41 of 184 Old 06-13-2019, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by john.odonnell01 View Post
Do we know if any of the 10-15 meter fiber optic HDMI cables support eARC?

The Ruipro hybrid fiber cable (I think they are calling it Ruirpo8K) has been tested and passed eARC for the 5m and 10m lengths. They are just becoming available in some consumer markets.

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post #42 of 184 Old 06-13-2019, 12:21 PM
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The RuiPro4K and NEW RuiPro8K cables - have both been 'bench' tested for eARC, tricky at present to do much in the way of real world testing though.

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post #43 of 184 Old 06-14-2019, 04:33 AM
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....and early bench testing has failed in the past with previous iterations of the HDMI spec (with many vendors, not a criticism of RuiPro) . So.... buyer beware, always put the cable in conduit for easy replacement!

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post #44 of 184 Old 06-14-2019, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by jong1 View Post
....and early bench testing has failed in the past with previous iterations of the HDMI spec (with many vendors, not a criticism of RuiPro) . So.... buyer beware, always put the cable in conduit for easy replacement!

I conversed with Ruipro yesterday and their new 8k cables have passed eARC testing for 10m and 15m. Hopefully ARROW-AV will be able to independently confirm that once they can get consumer devices that have been certified for eARC. As a side note, 48Gbps is not an issue for the new 8k at those lengths.



I agree 100% about conduit. At this point in time, if consumers are wanting the latest HDMI options, and they have runs over 20', it is foolish to not install conduit if you don't have easy access to the cable for installation and update. The cables are only going to improve which means swapping out cables at some future point.
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post #45 of 184 Old 06-16-2019, 06:36 PM
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Here is an interesting article from June 13 about HDMI 2.1 official certification which should be available in a few months. Also some cable prototype certified packaging photos.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/14534...i-48g-incoming
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post #46 of 184 Old 06-16-2019, 08:54 PM
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Ruipro is working with Simplay Labs on testing and certifying their 8k cables. Simplay Labs is an ATC, but until HDMI.org allows for certification of active cables, “official” certification, with some form of documentation is still a ways off. I don’t know who other hybrid fiber cable mfrs are using for their certification. CTS testing for the HDMI 2.1 specs has been approved and in place since about the first of the year. Cable prototypes that are supposedly fully HDMI 2.1 compliant were demonstrated at CES this year, but without consumer-ready devices or sources to use them with, it’s still speculation as to how well they will truly perform beyond the initial 3m distance, which brings us back to an active cable.
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post #47 of 184 Old 06-30-2019, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by TrendSetterX View Post
Taking the listed specs literally, that new cable will fail for all compressed 2.1 formats.
Why do you say it will fail for all compressed 2.1 formats?

I am in the process of renovating my theater room and want to put 2.1 cables in just in case for the future but do not want a cable with any issues.

Right now input source is from a cable box and streaming devices.. so is compressed signals from these devices an issue with these new cables?

I am just a consumer that wants the equipment to work without issues.

Thanks for any comments you can provide.
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post #48 of 184 Old 06-30-2019, 10:18 AM
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Why do you say it will fail for all compressed 2.1 formats?

I am in the process of renovating my theater room and want to put 2.1 cables in just in case for the future but do not want a cable with any issues.

Right now input source is from a cable box and streaming devices.. so is compressed signals from these devices an issue with these new cables?

I am just a consumer that wants the equipment to work without issues.

Thanks for any comments you can provide.
No such thing as HDMI 2.1 cables. When released, they should, or probably will be labeled as Ultra High Speed HDMI cables. I'm not sure what TrendSetterX means that the new cables will fail for all compressed data. The Ruipro8k hybrid fiber cables, from the data I've seen, pass all of the video formats , compressed and uncompressed, currently under the HDMI 2.1 hardware specifications. What you can get is more dependent on the version of the HDMI chipsets at the source/sink end than the actual data path (cable) itself.

No cable will be 100% guaranteed to work in any given setup, so there's always going to be a bit of trial and error. That includes the Premium High Speed HDMI cables (passive) that are certified by HDMI.org.

The best you can do is run your cabling in a conduit (1.5" - 2.0"), with a pull string, so as to make swapping out cables or adding more as needed easier and safer. That truly is the ONLY way to future proof your cabling, unless you have easy access to your cabling and they are not in-wall/ceiling. Cabling standards are always going to lag behind video standards so as the video standards change, so will the cables, regardless of the smoke and mirrors and claims that cable mfrs make in their product descriptions and marketing.

At this point in time, I think the best you can do is install hybrid fibers cables (Ruipro) inside a conduit and hope for the best. They are not cheap and once their Ruipro8k cables are released, you can either upgrade to them or just wait till they come out and purchase then. If you need cables now, go for their current Ruipro4k cables.

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post #49 of 184 Old 07-01-2019, 09:17 AM
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'I am just a consumer that wants the equipment to work without issues' - I suspect most on AVS are already in that Club

As Otto says ensure you install the best cable you can to meet current requirements and also ensure it is easily replaced as they can fail, be damaged or become obsolete.

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post #50 of 184 Old 07-01-2019, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
No such thing as HDMI 2.1 cables. When released, they should, or probably will be labeled as Ultra High Speed HDMI cables. I'm not sure what TrendSetterX means that the new cables will fail for all compressed data. The Ruipro8k hybrid fiber cables, from the data I've seen, pass all of the video formats , compressed and uncompressed, currently under the HDMI 2.1 hardware specifications. What you can get is more dependent on the version of the HDMI chipsets at the source/sink end than the actual data path (cable) itself.

No cable will be 100% guaranteed to work in any given setup, so there's always going to be a bit of trial and error. That includes the Premium High Speed HDMI cables (passive) that are certified by HDMI.org.

The best you can do is run your cabling in a conduit (1.5" - 2.0"), with a pull string, so as to make swapping out cables or adding more as needed easier and safer. That truly is the ONLY way to future proof your cabling, unless you have easy access to your cabling and they are not in-wall/ceiling. Cabling standards are always going to lag behind video standards so as the video standards change, so will the cables, regardless of the smoke and mirrors and claims that cable mfrs make in their product descriptions and marketing.

At this point in time, I think the best you can do is install hybrid fibers cables (Ruipro) inside a conduit and hope for the best. They are not cheap and once their Ruipro8k cables are released, you can either upgrade to them or just wait till they come out and purchase then. If you need cables now, go for their current Ruipro4k cables.


What is the ETA for the Ruipro 8k series release?

Thanks.

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post #51 of 184 Old 07-01-2019, 04:26 PM
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HDMI cables which properly and reliably support 48 Gbps & HDMI 2.1

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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
I'm not sure what TrendSetterX means that the new cables will fail for all compressed data. The Ruipro8k hybrid fiber cables, from the data I've seen, pass all of the video formats , compressed and uncompressed, currently under the HDMI 2.1 hardware specifications.
There has been nothing posted or stated that RUIPRO “8K” can support compressed formats. If anything, the marketing material states the opposite. Since the largest manufacturers of HDMI chipsets are still working on support - it’s extremely doubtful that RUIPRO has full support now and they don’t. As we’ve all seen with HDMI cabling over long distances, the proof is in the pudding and we should all be pessimistic as to support until actual tests show otherwise.
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post #52 of 184 Old 07-01-2019, 04:43 PM
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HDMI cables which properly and reliably support 48 Gbps & HDMI 2.1

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Why do you say it will fail for all compressed 2.1 formats?
From the literature so far provided by RUIPRO, and given that Valens doesn’t even have full support for compressed formats yet, it doesn’t look like the RUIPRO will support compressed 2.1 formats. So, technically, The cable will fail these tests when AV Arrow performs them.

How it will act for the end user depends on how RUIPRO implemented their firmware.

Assuming the RUIPRO does not support compressed formats when used between HDMI 2.1 devices that support the full range of compressed and uncompressed formats:

Best case scenario: the RUIPRO doesn’t get confused by EDID information from display and source that lists support for compressed formats and, instead supplants its own EDID info stating more limited support (which will tell the source system not to try to send compressed formats). So in this case, the cable should work fine for all non-compressed formats and the user won’t even see an option on their source system to provide the higher-bandwidth signals.

Not-So-Great-Case: the RUIPRO passes the EDID information as-is between source and display so the source device believes it can safely transmit both uncompressed and compressed signals - also note that in this scenario, source devices will be eager to use compression because it will allow longer runs and/or cheaper cables to work now under compression whereas they wouldn’t before as uncompressed. Because the RUIPRO doesn’t know what to do with a compressed signal (and given that the source device thinks it can send compressed) any compressed signal that the source device sends will fail at the cable and not make it to the display. Because the source device will be operating on eager compression mode, some formats that may not be compressed today that would work will stop working with the RUIPRO on 2.1.


Worst-Case: the RUIPRO gets confused by the unknown EDID info and crashes, failing to work at all. (This was seen as recently as 2018 with Denon receivers that didn’t understand the VRR EDID being sent by 2018 Samsung displays). In this case the end user get no signal at all.

Now while all that was in reference specifically to RUIPRO, it applies equally to any active HDMI technology that’s currently on the market.
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post #53 of 184 Old 07-01-2019, 07:38 PM
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What is the ETA for the Ruipro 8k series release?

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Don't know. They are still being evaluated by Simplay Labs (an ATC) as well as independent testing by AV-ARROW.

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post #54 of 184 Old 07-01-2019, 07:43 PM
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From the literature so far provided by RUIPRO, and given that Valens doesn’t even have full support for compressed formats yet, it doesn’t look like the RUIPRO will support compressed 2.1 formats. So, technically, The cable will fail these tests when AV Arrow performs them.
In my personal communications with Ruipro they state quite the opposite. Are you referring to VESA compression by any chance? If you have an example of compressed formats post them or message me and I'll ask them about those formats specifically.

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post #55 of 184 Old 07-01-2019, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by TrendSetterX View Post
From the literature so far provided by RUIPRO, and given that Valens doesn’t even have full support for compressed formats yet, it doesn’t look like the RUIPRO will support compressed 2.1 formats. So, technically, The cable will fail these tests when AV Arrow performs them.

How it will act for the end user depends on how RUIPRO implemented their firmware.

Assuming the RUIPRO does not support compressed formats when used between HDMI 2.1 devices that support the full range of compressed and uncompressed formats:

Best case scenario: the RUIPRO doesn’t get confused by EDID information from display and source that lists support for compressed formats and, instead supplants its own EDID info stating more limited support (which will tell the source system not to try to send compressed formats). So in this case, the cable should work fine for all non-compressed formats and the user won’t even see an option on their source system to provide the higher-bandwidth signals.

Not-So-Great-Case: the RUIPRO passes the EDID information as-is between source and display so the source device believes it can safely transmit both uncompressed and compressed signals - also note that in this scenario, source devices will be eager to use compression because it will allow longer runs and/or cheaper cables to work now under compression whereas they wouldn’t before as uncompressed. Because the RUIPRO doesn’t know what to do with a compressed signal (and given that the source device thinks it can send compressed) any compressed signal that the source device sends will fail at the cable and not make it to the display. Because the source device will be operating on eager compression mode, some formats that may not be compressed today that would work will stop working with the RUIPRO on 2.1.


Worst-Case: the RUIPRO gets confused by the unknown EDID info and crashes, failing to work at all. (This was seen as recently as 2018 with Denon receivers that didn’t understand the VRR EDID being sent by 2018 Samsung displays). In this case the end user get no signal at all.

Now while all that was in reference specifically to RUIPRO, it applies equally to any active HDMI technology that’s currently on the market.
I am no expert with cables or HDMI but I thought the purpose of a fiber optical HDMI cable was to:

Convert the HDMI electrical signal to light at the source and then the light is converted back to a HDMI electrical signal at the display.

I thought the difference between a compressed video signal vs uncompressed video signal is that the file size is smaller for the compressed file.

If the file size does not exceed 48GBPS then why would it fail?

Does not make sense to me.... but again I am looking at this from a simple perspective.
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post #56 of 184 Old 07-01-2019, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by MMC57 View Post
I am no expert with cables or HDMI but I thought the purpose of a fiber optical HDMI cable was to:

Convert the HDMI electrical signal to light at the source and then the light is converted back to a HDMI electrical signal at the display.

I thought the difference between a compressed video signal vs uncompressed video signal is that the file size is smaller for the compressed file.

If the file size does not exceed 48GBPS then why would it fail?

Does not make sense to me.... but again I am looking at this from a simple perspective.
It doesn't make sense. These are the HDMI 2.1 video specs:

Q: Will [email protected] or [email protected] require a new cable?
A: Yes, in order to ensure performance and compatibility the Ultra High Speed HDMI Cable is required.
Q: What are the supported resolutions and frame rates?
A:
  • 4K50/60
  • 4K100/120
  • 5K50/60
  • 5K100/120
  • 8K50/60
  • 8K100/120
  • 10K50/60
  • 10K100/120
Q: Is compression used to achieve those resolutions and frame rates?
A: The specification supports both uncompressed and compressed modes. Manufacturers can implement either or both modes. The designations are:
  • 4K100A – supports uncompressed mode
  • 4K100B – supports compressed mode
  • 4K100AB – supports both
  • 4K120A – supports uncompressed mode
  • 4K120B – supports compressed mode
  • 4K120AB – supports both
  • 8K50A – supports uncompressed mode
  • 8K50B – supports compressed mode
  • 8K50AB – supports both
  • 8K60A – supports uncompressed mode
  • 8K60B – supports compressed mode
  • 8K60AB – supports both
A= compressed, B=uncompressed, AB=both


If the Ruipro8k cables pass testing by Simplay Labs as being fully compatible to HDMI 2.1 specifications then it's a non-issue. The problem with testing at this point in time is that there aren't any consumer devices that the cables can be tested on that meet all of those options so Ruipro and other mfrs have to rely upon new testing equipment, once it is certified, to test on. 48Gbps is the bandwidth, not the file size, that is needed to reliably push the data from point A to point B and still maintain signal integrity. It is very difficult at this point in time to meet all of the specifications but it is doable. Distance is also a big issue (especially with ARC and/or eARC), and is one of the specifications that the cable mfrs are dealing with for lengths longer than 10m. I don't believe that a copper-only cable will be able to reliably handle the demands of HDMI 2.1, 8k and beyond unless you use a very thick gauge wire, which is just not practical. Even HDMI.org in one of the first releases of the new specifications stated that a "special 48Gbps HDMI cable" would be needed.


The fiber is needed to be able to transmit the amount of data that will be required for fully compliant HDMI 2.1 that copper-only can't (think light speed). The chipsets at either end of the cable "coordinate" that data so that what it gets from the source end is what is delivered to the sink end without issues. That's a very simplistic and not too technical description but you get the idea.


There are other mfrs of hybrid fiber cables but Ruipro is who I have worked with (and currently use on my system) and who has a very good reputation with their 4k cables and distance from other AVS members.

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post #57 of 184 Old 07-02-2019, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
It doesn't make sense.
It does.
Let's boil this down...

What the RUIPRO (or any active cable/tech) does between its own ends (i.e. along its own cable) is moot and unimportant in this conversation. What is important is what the little computers embedded at each end of the cable are doing. Those computers are programmed to accept/receive/look-for a specific kind of data (for sake of simplicity, I'm going to focus on the actual media stream and not the EDID or other metadata information which can also be problematic). Think about your home computer and let's say I email you a file named "MyFile.ggg" (remember that .ggg extension tells the computer OS what kind of file it is and therefore what program to use to open it). Since I just made up the .ggg format/file, your computer wont' know how to open it - your computer would have to have a program or CODEC installed to be able to understand and open the MyFile.ggg that I sent you. Now if we apply that to the little computers at the ends of "active" tech HDMI cabling, you need to understand that up until HDMI 2.1 was announced, all they ever had to know about was an uncompressed stream being passed to them. They didn't need to know anything about a compressed stream so, like my MyFile.ggg example above, if you try to give them a compressed stream, they're going to go "what is this? I don't know how to open this so I'm going to show you no screen at all." Then, to add complexity on top of that, you have to consider the additional/different metadata (additional EDID enumerations, etc) that the firmware developers for those little computers at each end of the cable have to have made allowances for ahead of time without knowing what the EDIDs might be (again, as recently as last year, you had major products getting confused over new EDID information so it's not unheard of).

Simplifying your table that you took from the public-facing HDMI 2.1 faq and adding additional missing items:
  • 4K24AB – supports both compressed and uncompressed mode
  • 4K30AB – supports both compressed and uncompressed mode
  • 4K50AB – supports both compressed and uncompressed mode
  • 4K60AB – supports both compressed and uncompressed mode
  • 4K100AB – supports both compressed and uncompressed mode
  • 4K120AB – supports both compressed and uncompressed mode
  • 8K50AB – supports both compressed and uncompressed mode
  • 8K60AB – supports both compressed and uncompressed mode
There are so many possible variables (assuming a source and display that can both handle the full range of compressed and uncompressed formats in HDMI 2.1 and that the source device operates in compression-eager mode)
  • [Active Cable] doesn't support compressed formats
    • [Active Cable] strips compressed support from display EDID
      • The source device believes the display can't handle any compressed formats and therefore only sends compressed formats that the [Active Cable] says it can handle.
        • Uncompressed formats: Success (assuming [Active Cable] properly handles all resolutions)
        • Compressed formats: Not-Applicable (the source device doesn't try to send them)
    • [Active Cable] does not strip compressed support from display EDID
      • The source device believes the display can handle any format (compressed or uncompressed) so it sends it compressed in order to have greater cable compatibility (which hurts us here because greater cable compatibility applies to passive cables not active)
        • Uncompressed formats: Success (assuming [Active Cable] properly handles all resolutions)
        • Compressed formats: Fail to display
  • [Active Cable] does support compressed formats
    • Uncompressed formats: Success (assuming [Active Cable] properly handles all resolutions)
    • Compressed formats: Success (assuming [Active Cable] properly handles all resolutions)

My guess is that RUIPRO will/is likely to take the approach of "[Active Cable] strips compressed support from display EDID" being as they've already invested in their own signaling technology and this allows them to just ignore the compressed formats (although the writing is on the wall that future HDMI specs will be entirely compressed - but that's probably 10 years down the road). While this approach is successful, it's arguable that it's not pure/full 2.1 compliant because it doesn't tick all the boxes.
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Ok. Assuming you are correct on all of your points (and I am not doubting your knowledge on the subject), what's the bottom line for the average consumer who just wants a reliable cable connection? Do they need all of the possible permutations of compressed vs uncompressed data? Will they even be able to tell the difference? Is it more important for the gamers or the non-gamers? Whatever Ruipro and the other hybrid fiber cable mfrs decide to implement, or are able to implement in their active connectors is out of the control of the end-user. We will get what they give us and most will never know the difference and be blissfully happy. Hopefully the cable mfrs, and device mfrs, will list which formats their "cables" have passed so the consumer will know if it is going to meet their needs or not.

I still stand by my statement that if one is to purchase a cable TODAY for trouble-free 4k HDR (HDMI 2.0), then they really can't do any better for the long runs than a hybrid fiber cable (Ruipro4k). If they want to purchase "for the future", then install that cable in a conduit now if the cable is not easily accessible, and then when HDMI 2.1 devices are out in the wild and widely in use, upgrade to a Ruipro8k and hopefully that will meet their needs. I doubt if we will see any cable that will be able to adequately handle ALL of the possible HDMI 2.1 formats proposed by the specification, especially at the long lengths. And if we do, it will be VERY expensive. More so than the current crop hybrid fiber cables.

And yes, I did take my table from the HDMI.org site. A lot of folks don't want to bother with finding information for themselves so I posted it for them.
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post #59 of 184 Old 07-03-2019, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrendSetterX View Post
It does.
Let's boil this down...

What the RUIPRO (or any active cable/tech) does between its own ends (i.e. along its own cable) is moot and unimportant in this conversation. What is important is what the little computers embedded at each end of the cable are doing. Those computers are programmed to accept/receive/look-for a specific kind of data (for sake of simplicity, I'm going to focus on the actual media stream and not the EDID or other metadata information which can also be problematic). Think about your home computer and let's say I email you a file named "MyFile.ggg" (remember that .ggg extension tells the computer OS what kind of file it is and therefore what program to use to open it). Since I just made up the .ggg format/file, your computer wont' know how to open it - your computer would have to have a program or CODEC installed to be able to understand and open the MyFile.ggg that I sent you. Now if we apply that to the little computers at the ends of "active" tech HDMI cabling, you need to understand that up until HDMI 2.1 was announced, all they ever had to know about was an uncompressed stream being passed to them. They didn't need to know anything about a compressed stream so, like my MyFile.ggg example above, if you try to give them a compressed stream, they're going to go "what is this? I don't know how to open this so I'm going to show you no screen at all." Then, to add complexity on top of that, you have to consider the additional/different metadata (additional EDID enumerations, etc) that the firmware developers for those little computers at each end of the cable have to have made allowances for ahead of time without knowing what the EDIDs might be (again, as recently as last year, you had major products getting confused over new EDID information so it's not unheard of).

Simplifying your table that you took from the public-facing HDMI 2.1 faq and adding additional missing items:
  • 4K24AB – supports both compressed and uncompressed mode
  • 4K30AB – supports both compressed and uncompressed mode
  • 4K50AB – supports both compressed and uncompressed mode
  • 4K60AB – supports both compressed and uncompressed mode
  • 4K100AB – supports both compressed and uncompressed mode
  • 4K120AB – supports both compressed and uncompressed mode
  • 8K50AB – supports both compressed and uncompressed mode
  • 8K60AB – supports both compressed and uncompressed mode
There are so many possible variables (assuming a source and display that can both handle the full range of compressed and uncompressed formats in HDMI 2.1 and that the source device operates in compression-eager mode)
  • [Active Cable] doesn't support compressed formats
    • [Active Cable] strips compressed support from display EDID
      • The source device believes the display can't handle any compressed formats and therefore only sends compressed formats that the [Active Cable] says it can handle.
        • Uncompressed formats: Success (assuming [Active Cable] properly handles all resolutions)
        • Compressed formats: Not-Applicable (the source device doesn't try to send them)
    • [Active Cable] does not strip compressed support from display EDID
      • The source device believes the display can handle any format (compressed or uncompressed) so it sends it compressed in order to have greater cable compatibility (which hurts us here because greater cable compatibility applies to passive cables not active)
        • Uncompressed formats: Success (assuming [Active Cable] properly handles all resolutions)
        • Compressed formats: Fail to display
  • [Active Cable] does support compressed formats
    • Uncompressed formats: Success (assuming [Active Cable] properly handles all resolutions)
    • Compressed formats: Success (assuming [Active Cable] properly handles all resolutions)

My guess is that RUIPRO will/is likely to take the approach of "[Active Cable] strips compressed support from display EDID" being as they've already invested in their own signaling technology and this allows them to just ignore the compressed formats (although the writing is on the wall that future HDMI specs will be entirely compressed - but that's probably 10 years down the road). While this approach is successful, it's arguable that it's not pure/full 2.1 compliant because it doesn't tick all the boxes.
I will try and install a conduit as this seems like a complete mess!

How do passive cables handle uncompressed vs compressed? I assume a passive cable has no processing in the ends and is just a copper wire with HDMI ends.

Since I am going to a ceiling projector I need 10 M to 12 M so passive cables for 4K or 8K will not work.

It seems crazy that yo could sell a cable as 4K or 8K and not be able to process all the different formats.

Very frustrating to read all the potential problems when all I want to do is buy a dam cable that works.
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post #60 of 184 Old 07-04-2019, 01:29 AM
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@TrendSetterX is overloading us with science here 😄, but I don't think he is right. It's true for Cat-based solutions because cat cabling cannot support the raw 48Gb/s data rate (pre-compression) of HDMI 2.1 and they have to add their own compression.

Optical fiber doesn't have the same constraints, there should be no need to add a secondary level of compression.

Ruipro should not need to worry about the compression being performed by the HDMI chipsets in the HDMI 2.1 source, decoded by the HDMI 2.1 sink (say display or AVR). To the Ruipro it's just 48Gb/s of data, transparently transported. It is the chipsets in the devices on either end that need to make sense of that data as @TrendSetterX describes.

For comparison, it's similar to how all of the electronic equipment transporting the compressed video of YouTube, Netflix etc. and even zip files from computer to computer and server to TV, does not need to worry about that - it is all just data and making sense of it is done at the end points.

But, I do agree that nothing is guaranteed until it's out there in the real world. We will see.
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