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post #1 of 32 Old 06-17-2019, 06:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Help with video signal dropout

I am confounded by a problem I am experiencing with my home theater setup. I have a Philips BDP7502/f7 4K blu ray player feeding into a Denon AVRX6300H receiver (via HDMI). The Denon feeds into a Vizio M75-E1 (via HDMI). All of this was purchased in early spring 2018.

At first everything was fine. However, after a few months, we started to have an issue where every so often while watching a movie, the TV will lose the picture for one or two seconds (on average maybe once every 20-30 minutes). The sound would still be transmitted by the AVR. I have noticed that sometimes when starting up the system and loading a movie (either a 4K or regular blu ray), the problem is really bad. Under such "bad" circumstances, the screen will black out for one or two seconds every ten seconds or so. Usually, turning the Blu Ray player off and back on again solves that particular problem but we still encounter the occasional loss of video signal during the movie.

Since the sound signal is never lost, I assume that the problem is related to HDCP and loss of handshake, but I haven't been able to figure out a solution or find a similar problem on any forum. I have made sure the firmware is up to date and have also tried swapping out the cable from the AVR to the TV without any effect. The HDMI cables I am using are advertised as being able to handle 4K/HDR, etc.

I would appreciate any suggestions on other things to try to resolve the problem.
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post #2 of 32 Old 06-17-2019, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Hurwitz View Post
The HDMI cables I am using are advertised as being able to handle 4K/HDR, etc.
Ben,

Are your cables "premium certified" (with the distinctive label)? If not, then replacing them would be appropriate.

Bob Pariseau has an explanation (including cable length issues).

https://bobpariseau.com/blog/2018/4/...-what-you-want

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post #3 of 32 Old 06-17-2019, 08:10 AM
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I would first try swapping out HDMI cables one at a time to see if that fixes the issue. Next I would try going straight from the source to the TV, bypassing the receiver. Hopefully it is not an issue with the TV!

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post #4 of 32 Old 06-17-2019, 08:47 AM
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I would first try swapping out HDMI cables one at a time to see if that fixes the issue. Next I would try going straight from the source to the TV, bypassing the receiver. Hopefully it is not an issue with the TV!
I'd suggest going straight from player to the TV 1st. Then play the new cable(s) game.
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post #5 of 32 Old 06-17-2019, 09:01 AM
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Ben,

A variation on ratman's theme:

The Quick Start Guide says your Philips blu-Ray player (like many 4K players) has two HDMI outputs. One is intended for video, and usually also audio. The other is intended only for audio, and is necessary with older AVRs that can't pass 4K video to a TV. (The audio-only HDMI might be covered by a sticker. That's just weird.)

Of course your Denon was designed for 4K. Nevertheless, it would be interesting to connect your blu-Ray player with two separate HDMI cables: one to the AVR and one to the TV.



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post #6 of 32 Old 06-17-2019, 11:10 AM
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post #7 of 32 Old 06-17-2019, 05:14 PM
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I have the same problem. The video drop outs always come in pairs. First one drop out and then about 15 seconds later a second. Audio remains but for a very short glitch right after the video returns. This set up has worked for several years. The problem only started a couple of months ago.


My video path is direct from a satellite box to the TV but it passes through a powered HDMI splitter (edited from switch) first. The drop outs only occur with the first TV which is in the first HDMI output of the switch. This port is used to copy EDID info to the other ports. 1080P or less, no 4K.


In post 2 by @cTwining Bob Pariseau recommends 6 ft HDMI cables, not longer and not shorter for best performance. But I need two lengths of HDMI cables. A 6 ft cable would fit from the switch to the TV but what should I use from the DirecTV box to the switch? Should I use another six ft cable? Does the switch use its power to repeat the signal? Or is the total length considered one length and I should use the shortest cable possible between the box and the switch?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Hurwitz View Post
I am confounded by a problem I am experiencing with my home theater setup. I have a Philips BDP7502/f7 4K blu ray player feeding into a Denon AVRX6300H receiver (via HDMI). The Denon feeds into a Vizio M75-E1 (via HDMI). All of this was purchased in early spring 2018.

At first everything was fine. However, after a few months, we started to have an issue where every so often while watching a movie, the TV will lose the picture for one or two seconds (on average maybe once every 20-30 minutes). The sound would still be transmitted by the AVR. I have noticed that sometimes when starting up the system and loading a movie (either a 4K or regular blu ray), the problem is really bad. Under such "bad" circumstances, the screen will black out for one or two seconds every ten seconds or so. Usually, turning the Blu Ray player off and back on again solves that particular problem but we still encounter the occasional loss of video signal during the movie.

Since the sound signal is never lost, I assume that the problem is related to HDCP and loss of handshake, but I haven't been able to figure out a solution or find a similar problem on any forum. I have made sure the firmware is up to date and have also tried swapping out the cable from the AVR to the TV without any effect. The HDMI cables I am using are advertised as being able to handle 4K/HDR, etc.

I would appreciate any suggestions on other things to try to resolve the problem.

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post #8 of 32 Old 06-17-2019, 07:17 PM
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I’ve used 10’ active cables for 1080 (before I knew any better ), 10’, 5’, and 4’ Premium High Speed HDMI cables for 4K HDR, and 5’ hybrid fiber cables (for testing purposes) also for 4K HDR and never had any audio or video issues. Keeping your cable length as short as is reasonable is always a good practice but sticking to the “6’ rule” is not that critical in my experience. The total cable length is considered source to sink. So a cable run of 10’ from source to avr (sink), and then another 10’ from avr (source) to sink (tv), would be two 10’ runs, not a 20’ run. Be mindful of bend radius because you don’t want to strain the HDMI input. Switches, adapters, wall plates, etc. can also affect a cable connection.
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post #9 of 32 Old 06-18-2019, 07:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks everybody for the input. I did not know about the "Premium Certified" designation for cables. I don't think the cables I have been using have such certification. I ordered some just now and will swap them into the system to see if that fixes the problems I am having. I will report back. If the problems are not solved by the cable swap, then I will try some of the other suggestions, such as hooking directly from the 4K blu ray player to the TV.
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post #10 of 32 Old 06-18-2019, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Hurwitz View Post
Thanks everybody for the input. I did not know about the "Premium Certified" designation for cables. I don't think the cables I have been using have such certification. I ordered some just now and will swap them into the system to see if that fixes the problems I am having. I will report back. If the problems are not solved by the cable swap, then I will try some of the other suggestions, such as hooking directly from the 4K blu ray player to the TV.
Keep in mind that no cable mfr can offer you a 100% guarantee that their cable will work in every setup. There are other factors involved in a successful cable run other than the data pipe (cable). certification is only good to 25’ and only with a passive cable.

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post #11 of 32 Old 06-25-2019, 10:19 AM
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I solved my problem. Thinking back this video drop out problem on my 1080p TV started when I upgraded the second 1080p TV to 4k. The HDMI splitter has 16 options controlled by 4 DIP switches on the front of the box. I had it set to Copy EDID from HDMI out 1 which is some kind of auto mode. I changed it to 1080p, DOLBY, DTS 5.1 and I haven't had a drop out in 3 days. This is the highest resolution compatible with both TVs. I believe DirecTV satellite is 1080i, 5.1 or less so I am not losing anything. From time to time the box must have paused for a couple of seconds checking out the 2 different TVs with their different resolutions. Perhaps this was in response to an HDCP request from the provider or ?


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Originally Posted by zeuspaul View Post
I have the same problem. The video drop outs always come in pairs. First one drop out and then about 15 seconds later a second. Audio remains but for a very short glitch right after the video returns. This set up has worked for several years. The problem only started a couple of months ago.


My video path is direct from a satellite box to the TV but it passes through a powered HDMI splitter (edited from switch) first. The drop outs only occur with the first TV which is in the first HDMI output of the switch. This port is used to copy EDID info to the other ports. 1080P or less, no 4K.


In post 2 by @cTwining Bob Pariseau recommends 6 ft HDMI cables, not longer and not shorter for best performance. But I need two lengths of HDMI cables. A 6 ft cable would fit from the switch to the TV but what should I use from the DirecTV box to the switch? Should I use another six ft cable? Does the switch use its power to repeat the signal? Or is the total length considered one length and I should use the shortest cable possible between the box and the switch?

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post #12 of 32 Old 07-24-2019, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
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I am so frustrated at this point. I thought I had the problem solved until recently. As an update, I swapped out all of my HDMI cables for certified cables. It actually seemed like the problem was worse at first. The other thing I did was turning off the CEC controls on all of the devices. After that, it seems that everything was working fine - we've been able to watch several movies without any problems. Last night, we were watching a blu ray and were again having 2 second long (approximately) video signal drops. I checked to ensure the firmware in the BDP, AVR, and TV were all up to date (they were) and that none of the CEC settings were accidentally turned back on (they weren't).

Back in June after I first reached out to this forum, I did hook up the BDP to the TV directly and watched a bit of a movie and did not have the problem. However, this problem is intermittent, so solving it is like proving a negative. I cannot prove that the problem is solved until I have watched a lot of movies and don't have any dropouts. I really don't want to watch hours and hours of movies with just the TV audio and, frankly, don't think I should have to do so.

One suggestion I found on the Philips website is to perform a "hotplug" in which I (1) disconnect the HDMI cable from the TV; (2) turn everything on; and (3) then reconnect the HDMI cable to the TV. I can try this but I'm not sure what it is supposed to accomplish. I also found a suggestion on the Denon website to move the HDMI connection for the BDP closer to the HDMI output on the back of the receiver. I can probably do this too.

That's the update on where I am with everything. If the above items don't work, I'm leaning toward a conclusion that the BDP is faulty since I have no issues with other inputs (e.g., cable box, PS3, Nintendo Wii U). If anyone has any suggestions for things I could try, I would appreciate it.
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post #13 of 32 Old 07-25-2019, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Hurwitz View Post

That's the update on where I am with everything. If the above items don't work, I'm leaning toward a conclusion that the BDP is faulty since I have no issues with other inputs (e.g., cable box, PS3, Nintendo Wii U). If anyone has any suggestions for things I could try, I would appreciate it.
You may be on the right path about the Blu-ray player being faulty. If you read any of the threads over the Blu-ray player forum players can suffer from the drop-out problem. No brand seems immune. Fortunately I've not seen this problem on either my Panasonic UB820 or the Sony X800.

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post #14 of 32 Old 07-29-2019, 05:37 AM - Thread Starter
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You may be on the right path about the Blu-ray player being faulty. If you read any of the threads over the Blu-ray player forum players can suffer from the drop-out problem. No brand seems immune. Fortunately I've not seen this problem on either my Panasonic UB820 or the Sony X800.
Well, the problem does not appear to be the bluray player. I purchased a Panasonic UB820 4K player over the weekend and the problem still exists. Mr. G, I looked a little bit on the blu ray player forums for this type of drop out problem but did not see anything. I would appreciate it if you could point out a thread or two where this was discussed. Thank you.
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post #15 of 32 Old 07-29-2019, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Ben Hurwitz View Post
Back in June after I first reached out to this forum, I did hook up the BDP to the TV directly and watched a bit of a movie and did not have the problem. However, this problem is intermittent, so solving it is like proving a negative. I cannot prove that the problem is solved until I have watched a lot of movies and don't have any dropouts. I really don't want to watch hours and hours of movies with just the TV audio and, frankly, don't think I should have to do so..
Well... new cables. New bluray player and problem still persists.
As suggested before, there are two HDMI outputs on the DVD player. Use one directly to the TV for video, the other directly to the AVR for audio.
Best of both worlds and watch for hours and hours with AVR audio!



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post #16 of 32 Old 07-31-2019, 07:14 AM
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Well, the problem does not appear to be the bluray player. I purchased a Panasonic UB820 4K player over the weekend and the problem still exists. Mr. G, I looked a little bit on the blu ray player forums for this type of drop out problem but did not see anything. I would appreciate it if you could point out a thread or two where this was discussed. Thank you.
Sorry to hear that wasn't the cure, I would return the UB820, ($500) is a lot to spend and then not be the solution. As Ratman says you can try splitting the Blu-ray player signal by sending the video and the sound to the receiver using separate HDMI cables. I am fairly puzzled.

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post #17 of 32 Old 07-31-2019, 07:42 AM - Thread Starter
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I basically have a month to return the Panasonic, so I am not rushing to do so. I am not thrilled with the idea of splitting the outputs from the player to send audio to the AVR and video to the TV. The TV only has a single HDMI 2.0 input. The other inputs are all HDMI 1.4.

I am testing one more theory here, which is that I could be getting EM noise through the cable in the wall going to the TV. The HDMI cable through the wall is running close to the AC cable taking power to the wall mounted TV. From what I am reading, the high bandwidth requirements of HDMI cables carrying full 4K content make them very susceptible to EM noise interference. I bought FiBBR fiber optic to HDMI cables to go from the blu ray player to the AVR and from the AVR to the TV. The optical signals through the cables should eliminate any possible noise issues. Assuming the cables fix the problem, I will try the Philips blu ray player back in the system and see if the results are the same. If so, then I will likely return the Panasonic.
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post #18 of 32 Old 07-31-2019, 11:10 AM
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"Splitting" has nothing to with the suggestions. These are temporary suggestions to diagnose your issue(s).


Both DVD players have one HMDI for video (use the 2.0) to the TV and one for audio to the AVR. The manufacturers provide that feature for a reason. Try it and stop guessing.


If there are no video dropouts with this configuration. You know how to proceed.


Start simple. No reason to make it more difficult with denial or hope.



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post #19 of 32 Old 08-02-2019, 06:19 AM - Thread Starter
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"Splitting" has nothing to with the suggestions. These are temporary suggestions to diagnose your issue(s).


Both DVD players have one HMDI for video (use the 2.0) to the TV and one for audio to the AVR. The manufacturers provide that feature for a reason. Try it and stop guessing.


If there are no video dropouts with this configuration. You know how to proceed.


Start simple. No reason to make it more difficult with denial or hope.
Ratman, thank you for the advice; I should have listened to your advice in the first place. I tried the optical cables (to eliminate the possibility that the problem was related to EM interference with AC cables in the wall). I was able to watch a bit of a few movies, but then the problem of the video dropouts returned as bad as ever.

I then took your advice and directly connected the 4K player to the TV on the first HDMI connection and used the second HDMI jack on the player to send the audio to my AVR. I was able to watch portions of a few different movies the other night without any problems. However, last night, I watched The Avengers with my wife. When I turned on the system and put the disc in, the video was dropping out roughly every 5-10 seconds for about 2 seconds at a time on the menu screen. I turned off the player and back on. At that point, we were able to watch the movie without any dropouts.

I am pretty sure that my Logitech Harmony remote turns on the 4K player first, then the AVR, and then the TV. I know that sometimes the order in which devices are turned on can affect the ability of the devices to complete the HDMI handshake. When I get home tonight, I will try changing the order of startup in the Logitech programming to turn on the TV first, then the AVR, and then the 4k player.
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post #20 of 32 Old 10-06-2019, 04:28 PM - Thread Starter
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An update - I continue to be frustrated by this whole process. I did try to split the video and audio coming from by Philips 4K blu ray player, but could not get it to work in that manner. I spoke to Philips and they were useless. Also, the player is out of warranty, so I'd have to pay out of pocket for any diagnosis and repair.

After speaking with Denon a couple of times and trying a few things at their request (including a full factory reset), they authorized a warranty return. I had to pay for the shipping, which was annoying, but I guess it's in the fine print. Anyways, the authorized third party (Panurgy OEM) that does warranty repairs for Denon replaced the "digital board" and sent the AVR back to me. The paperwork said that it tested normally, but the problem with the video dropouts is still there - just as bad as ever.

I intend to call Denon tomorrow and maybe Panurgy as well. I cannot imagine that the problem is NOT related to the AVR. I had the TV signal information displayed on the TV. During the dropouts, the resolution and frame rate information on the TV disappear. Unless Denon and/or Panurgy have some other idea, I am kind of out of ideas. The only other thing I can think to do is hire an AV installer to come out and try to diagnose/fix the problem. However, that could be an expensive wild goose chase.

Any additional thoughts would be appreciated.
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post #21 of 32 Old 10-08-2019, 12:42 AM
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TV - if, as most folk would do, you have the AVR connected to the TV's ARC port try connecting instead to one of the less feature laden inputs on the TV.

HDFury - one option would be to try an HDFury Dr HDMI 4K between the AVR and the TV to try and stop the handshake drops outs.

With HDMI it is the TV which initiates the various handshakes which have to be performed to allow an 'HDCP' session to operate, any small interruption in the signal the TV is seeing, or on the TV internal circuitry, and the TV will reinitiate a handshake (during which time your image and sometimes audio) will drop.

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post #22 of 32 Old 10-08-2019, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
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TV - if, as most folk would do, you have the AVR connected to the TV's ARC port try connecting instead to one of the less feature laden inputs on the TV.

HDFury - one option would be to try an HDFury Dr HDMI 4K between the AVR and the TV to try and stop the handshake drops outs.

With HDMI it is the TV which initiates the various handshakes which have to be performed to allow an 'HDCP' session to operate, any small interruption in the signal the TV is seeing, or on the TV internal circuitry, and the TV will reinitiate a handshake (during which time your image and sometimes audio) will drop.

Joe
Thanks, Joe. For the TV, I don't think I have options to try other HDMI ports because my TV (Vizio M75-E1) only has a single HDMI port that is up to the HDMI 2.0 standard - the remaining ports are all HDMI 1.4 and cannot handle the full 4K signal as I understand it. For what it's worth, I have disabled ARC and CEC control on all devices (4K blu ray player, Denon AVR, and TV) to no effect.

I have been looking at the HDFury DR HDMI 4K device and that may be the next step. However, I did call Denon yesterday and am expecting a follow up call from them in the next two days. Before I sink more money into another solution like HDFury, I want to see what Denon has to say.

This really does seem to be some kind of handshake issue between the AVR and TV because the audio signal NEVER drops out at the AVR, so the signal is clearly making it from the blu ray player to the AVR. It's only the video signal that drops out for approximately two seconds at a time.

I will report back once I hear from Denon. If I go the HDFury route, I could probably use some guidance on how to set it up. The available information/instructions on line are pretty sparse.
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post #23 of 32 Old 10-09-2019, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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The response from Denon is that this is most likely an EDID issue with the TV. I am going to try the HDFury Dr HDMI box and see if that resolves the problem.

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RESPONSE FROM DENON
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I'm looking over your file, and the description of the issue seems to be you're seeing momentary video drops during movie playback, but audio output is unaffected. This sounds like it could be an EDID negotiation issue, which is not caused by the AVR but by the TV's EDID (Extended Display Identification Data) not negotiating well with the source when going through an HDMI repeating device, such as our AVR that does HDMI processing. This is a common issue with HDMI negotiation and can be fixed with either an update to the TVs to adjust the EDID string or an EDID management device like the Atlona ETU Sync or Key Digital HDFIX22 (for example). These devices connect via HDMI between the TV and AVR and their primary function is to capture the TV's EDID to use the same data every time (every 3 seconds) for negotiation consistency.

You can also try contacting your TV manufacturer to determine if they have any suggestions you can try specific to your TV.

One way to test for an EDID issue is to try connecting the AVR to a different TV and seeing if you get the same video-display error. If the issue stops, it means there's an EDID issue; if it keeps happening then it indicates a problem with the unit, which would mean it would need to return to the service center for a re-work to take another look at it and see what's going on.
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post #24 of 32 Old 10-09-2019, 11:25 AM
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Vendor A) You have an EDID issue with product B
Vendor B) You have an EDID issue with product A and/or C
Vendor C) You have an EDID issue with products A and/or B


Vendor D) We have a product that will resolve EDID issues with products A, B and C !!



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #25 of 32 Old 10-09-2019, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Vendor A) You have an EDID issue with product B
Vendor B) You have an EDID issue with product A and/or C
Vendor C) You have an EDID issue with products A and/or B


Vendor D) We have a product that will resolve EDID issues with products A, B and C !!
Ratman, thanks! I needed the laugh. I am definitely cynical enough to have had the same thought - it's always easy to point the finger at someone else with something as nebulous as the problem I have been having. There are a few reasons I'm willing to try this HDFury product.

First, I've come across the EDID possibility as I go deeper down the rabbit hole of Google searches.

Second, it might make sense under the circumstances. One of the things I have read (don't know if it's true) is that HDMI boards use different chips to handle 4K signals from lower resolution signals (e.g., 1080 or 720P). If my TV is not properly and/or consistently transmitting the EDID signal, saying that it is 4K capable, it may be causing the AVR to switch to a lower resolution and also switch to a different chip that handles that lower resolution. That momentary switching of circuits could be causing the video dropouts. As I understand it, the HDFury will sit in the signal path between the TV and AVR and send the EDID signal instead of the TV.

I will report back if this works (or at least appears to work - resolving this problem is, again, proving a negative).
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post #26 of 32 Old 10-09-2019, 12:15 PM
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By all means, try any product (at your expense) that will/may resolve your issues.

All vendors interpret the HDMI "rules" and no one follows them.



Sorry.... but HDMI sucks. HDMI.org profits, vendors try to comply and the consumer continually suffers with all types of problems that are "moving targets".


Now... forced to buy a 3rd party product to make everyone play nice?
Very sad.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #27 of 32 Old 10-09-2019, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Agreed.
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post #28 of 32 Old 10-10-2019, 05:54 AM
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The DR HDMI 4K sits between the AVR and the TV and you choose to either use inbuilt EDID tables or capture the EDID from a Display - your Display or any 4K UHD capable Display the AVR is happy to work with.

Once the Dr HDMI 4K is installed the AVR does not 'see' your actual TV and instead 'see's the DR HDMI 4K device as a 'TV".

Can't imagine many TV manufacturers use multiple chips per input - each chip carries a licence cost and all 4K UHD capable chips will also be backwards compatible all the way back to SD.

HDMI is a pain - then again have you tried going back to an SD capable CRT TV

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post #29 of 32 Old 10-10-2019, 06:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the response, Joe. I have a couple of questions about the Dr HDMI device because the information about how to use it available on the internet is pretty sparse.

First, from what I can gather from the screenshots of the device itself, the built in EDID tables seem to be limited to certain types of HDR. For example, it seems like there is on table setting that broadcasts HDR10 capability and another table setting that broadcasts Dolby Vision capability. I don't see a built in table that includes multiple types of HDR. Therefore, I assume I am better trying to capture the EDID from by TV (which supports both HDR10 and Dolby Vision) before trying to use the built in tables because I may have to switch between built in tables depending on the HDR encoding for a particular 4K disc.

Second, does the use of the Dr HDMI device preclude using ARC? I have disabled ARC in case that was an issue causing my video dropouts, but it apparently is not the problem. It would be great to be able to use ARC because my Vizio TV has built in apps for streaming services that I otherwise cannot access. Specifically, the TV has Netflix and Amazon Video apps built in. It would be great to be able to use those apps and send the audio back to the AVR via ARC if the DR HDMI supports it.
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post #30 of 32 Old 10-10-2019, 09:20 AM
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^^^^ ARC can be a pain for any mfr. Another option would be to use an optical cable from the tv to the AVR for the built-in apps. The audio will be 5.1 but that's all you would get with ARC anyway so you wouldn't really be losing any audio fidelity. Just disable ARC/CEC on all of your HDMI connected devices and use an optical cable for the audio back to the receiver and a programmable remote, like a Harmony, for single remote control of your system.

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