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post #1 of 23 Old 07-10-2019, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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New uncompressed 18G HDBaseT chipset from Valens - VS3000

Interesting development in the world of HDBaseT.
Surprised this hasn't picked up much attention; a new chipset capable of driving uncompressed 18G down a single CATx cable. Up until now all the HDBT solutions have had to either avoid >9G transmissions, or colourspace convert them, or apply some kind of "visually lossless" compression such as VESA DSC.

The devil may well be in the detail, but for now I'm very, very interested.
https://www.valens.com/stello-family

Anyone seen any product announced based on this? It has some neat developments, such as the HDCP and HDMI TX/RX engines being integrated now (instead of external chips), plus gigabit LAN sidechannel etc.
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post #2 of 23 Old 07-10-2019, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Interesting development in the world of HDBaseT.
Surprised this hasn't picked up much attention; a new chipset capable of driving uncompressed 18G down a single CATx cable. Up until now all the HDBT solutions have had to either avoid >9G transmissions, or colourspace convert them, or apply some kind of "visually lossless" compression such as VESA DSC.

The devil may well be in the detail, but for now I'm very, very interested.
https://www.valens.com/stello-family

Anyone seen any product announced based on this? It has some neat developments, such as the HDCP and HDMI TX/RX engines being integrated now (instead of external chips), plus gigabit LAN sidechannel etc.
If that pans out, that will definitely be good news for those who need to use HDBT solutions as an alternate to hybrid fiber. Nice find.
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post #3 of 23 Old 07-11-2019, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Interesting development in the world of HDBaseT.
Surprised this hasn't picked up much attention; a new chipset capable of driving uncompressed 18G down a single CATx cable. Up until now all the HDBT solutions have had to either avoid >9G transmissions, or colourspace convert them, or apply some kind of "visually lossless" compression such as VESA DSC.

The devil may well be in the detail, but for now I'm very, very interested.
<Omitted link since my account is too new to post it, no disrespect - Aural>

Anyone seen any product announced based on this? It has some neat developments, such as the HDCP and HDMI TX/RX engines being integrated now (instead of external chips), plus gigabit LAN sidechannel etc.

That is pretty damn awesome. Also, on the flip side, have you seen Kramer's new 2-wire HDMI baluns? More of an enterprise solution. But you can literally have a potato as an interconnect. Pretty cool, saw them demo it. That being said, they've also provided their distributors with driver files for their UI controllers for their OWN PRODUCTS (such as a petty Amp), and tech support had me edit their own driver file on site for them, at the cost of me / my client. WTF Kramer? Your clients are your guinea pigs? Don't you do internal testing? Sorry, rant over.
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post #4 of 23 Old 07-11-2019, 11:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Aural Pleasure View Post
That is pretty damn awesome. Also, on the flip side, have you seen Kramer's new 2-wire HDMI baluns? More of an enterprise solution. But you can literally have a potato as an interconnect. Pretty cool, saw them demo it. That being said, they've also provided their distributors with driver files for their UI controllers for their OWN PRODUCTS (such as a petty Amp), and tech support had me edit their own driver file on site for them, at the cost of me / my client. WTF Kramer? Your clients are your guinea pigs? Don't you do internal testing? Sorry, rant over.
The trend of shipping incomplete product is well and truly upon us. Sounds like a neat tech though - I recall there were HDMI over coax products a while back.

Really looking forward to seeing how these units perform when they hit. Detail is very light. I've seen a couple of PR pieces linking 18G to Cat6A - which most folk aren't currently installing - though perhaps 18G will still work for shorter runs of 6 or 5A.
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
The trend of shipping incomplete product is well and truly upon us. Sounds like a neat tech though - I recall there were HDMI over coax products a while back.

Really looking forward to seeing how these units perform when they hit. Detail is very light. I've seen a couple of PR pieces linking 18G to Cat6A - which most folk aren't currently installing - though perhaps 18G will still work for shorter runs of 6 or 5A.
Me too dude. I'd like to sell a client a $100 wall plate, and pretend it's not a potato.

That has become my goal in life. "The controls are flawless on my iPotato"

**** yea
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Me too dude. I'd like to sell a client a $100 wall plate, and pretend it's not a potato.

That has become my goal in life. "The controls are flawless on my iPotato"

**** yea
****ing ****, this website censors posts? ****!
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post #7 of 23 Old 07-12-2019, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
The trend of shipping incomplete product is well and truly upon us. Sounds like a neat tech though - I recall there were HDMI over coax products a while back.

Really looking forward to seeing how these units perform when they hit. Detail is very light. I've seen a couple of PR pieces linking 18G to Cat6A - which most folk aren't currently installing - though perhaps 18G will still work for shorter runs of 6 or 5A.
Yup you nailed it. As usual, no real measurement testing, just the whole "we made it do this" It's like it was manufactured by Intel or something.

This is an AV sub. But I'm sure there are nerds like me here. Illustrious, showered with female interaction, types of nerds.

Remember when Intel announced E3 numbers, and then they got busted for LN2 under the effing desk? Pepperidge farm remembers. Even then, minus the other cheats, they wouldn't get within 50% of those numbers on air cooling. WTF?

Remember, for example, when AMD upscaled (?) to 7nm and Intel responded with rumours of 10nm, and then backshifted? For their shareholders? They aren't ready for it, their words. IS IT A PLOY? Yes it is, for their shareholders again. It turns out, they are all buying AMD (IM GONNA GET RIIIIICH)

Right after AMD destroyed every single offering Intel had? Intel is pissed they profited over research. NEW INTEL 10NM... that's not quite 7, is it? How many performance numbers do you have under LN2 because it's not necessary yet for you to disclose?
MAKE IT MANDATORY, PEOPLE.
THIS IS WHY AMD PUT GAMING MODE AS A FREQ. So you aren't getting lied to, by Intel, any more.
Good luck, Intel. Literally we all had faith in you, and you are a greedy corporate ****.
Cheers, and **** you.

*smothered under a green pillow*
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Originally Posted by Aural Pleasure View Post
Yup you nailed it. As usual, no real measurement testing, just the whole "we made it do this" It's like it was manufactured by Intel or something.

This is an AV sub. But I'm sure there are nerds like me here. Illustrious, showered with female interaction, types of nerds.

Remember when Intel announced E3 numbers, and then they got busted for LN2 under the effing desk? Pepperidge farm remembers. Even then, minus the other cheats, they wouldn't get within 50% of those numbers on air cooling. WTF?

Remember, for example, when AMD upscaled (?) to 7nm and Intel responded with rumours of 10nm, and then backshifted? For their shareholders? They aren't ready for it, their words. IS IT A PLOY? Yes it is, for their shareholders again. It turns out, they are all buying AMD (IM GONNA GET RIIIIICH)

Right after AMD destroyed every single offering Intel had? Intel is pissed they profited over research. NEW INTEL 10NM... that's not quite 7, is it? How many performance numbers do you have under LN2 because it's not necessary yet for you to disclose?
MAKE IT MANDATORY, PEOPLE.
THIS IS WHY AMD PUT GAMING MODE AS A FREQ. So you aren't getting lied to, by Intel, any more.
Good luck, Intel. Literally we all had faith in you, and you are a greedy corporate ****.
Cheers, and **** you.

*smothered under a green pillow*
Quick question, how many of you thought I would say "NVidia" instead of "Intel"? I almost did. But we are talking CPU's. Intel is putting the "peeeeeeeeeyouuuu" into CPU
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post #9 of 23 Old 07-12-2019, 07:00 AM - Thread Starter
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*smothered under a green pillow*
Can only hope. What a load of off topic nonsense. Probably best to take that to one of the general chit chat forums, this thread is quite specific in scope.

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post #10 of 23 Old 07-12-2019, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post

Really looking forward to seeing how these units perform when they hit. Detail is very light. I've seen a couple of PR pieces linking 18G to Cat6A - which most folk aren't currently installing - though perhaps 18G will still work for shorter runs of 6 or 5A.
I've always suggested that if one is going to use HDBT, then they should also consider solid core CAT-6 cabling (non-CCA and not CAT-6 etherent patch cable). The solid core is not terminated but is very easy to terminate to HDBT. The pre-terminated CAT-6 cable (what I call ethernet patch cable) just doesn't have the physical characteristics to reliably pass HDMI over long distances. It's also a lot easier to fish un-terminated solid core CAT-6 thru the walls with or without a conduit because you can't damage the cable by pulling on the ends.

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post #11 of 23 Old 07-12-2019, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
I've always suggested that if one is going to use HDBT, then they should also consider solid core CAT-6 cabling (non-CCA and not CAT-6 etherent patch cable). The solid core is not terminated but is very easy to terminate to HDBT. The pre-terminated CAT-6 cable (what I call ethernet patch cable) just doesn't have the physical characteristics to reliably pass HDMI over long distances. It's also a lot easier to fish un-terminated solid core CAT-6 thru the walls with or without a conduit because you can't damage the cable by pulling on the ends.
Sure, I've got 3x runs of solid core copper CAT-6 to my projector location from the AV cupboard. The point was them linking CAT-6A to 18G. Typical CAT-6A construction is quite different to standard CAT-6, and supports twice the bandwidth. I wonder if we might be out of luck with all but the shortest unencumbered CAT-6 runs for 18G.

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Sure, I've got 3x runs of solid core copper CAT-6 to my projector location from the AV cupboard. The point was them linking CAT-6A to 18G. Typical CAT-6A construction is quite different to standard CAT-6, and supports twice the bandwidth. I wonder if we might be out of luck with CAT-6 runs for 18G.
I use solid core CAT-6 to extend my ethernet connections so that I can hardwire by HTS's. Works remarkably well for streaming HDR (Dolby Vision, HDR10) from the router to the ATV4k. It's alway a good idea to install more cabling than you think you need just in case. Another good reason to use conduit I'm being cautiously optimistic that once the new chipsets are installed in HDBT connectors that solid core CAT-6 will still be sufficient for those long runs if one doesn't want to use hybrid fiber. I don't need an HDBT solution because I'm a hybrid fiber kinda guy but it is going to be very interesting going forward what shakes out once HDMI 2.1 products are widely available and in use. CONDUIT is the answer

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post #13 of 23 Old 07-12-2019, 12:22 PM
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Sure, I've got 3x runs of solid core copper CAT-6 to my projector location from the AV cupboard. The point was them linking CAT-6A to 18G. Typical CAT-6A construction is quite different to standard CAT-6, and supports twice the bandwidth. I wonder if we might be out of luck with all but the shortest unencumbered CAT-6 runs for 18G.
I have run cat6A shielded Ethernet cable throughout my house. My longest run from my central equipment cabinet is 70 feet. I have found no printed claims that cat6A will handle 18 GBPS. I used cat6A shielded because it did not add too much to the installation cost and shielded added protection from electrical interference.

I have no knowledge of how to test the capacity of my wiring but would be willing to be and AVS forum test case if it would not cost too much.

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I have run cat6A shielded Ethernet cable throughout my house. My longest run from my central equipment cabinet is 70 feet. I have found no printed claims that cat6A will handle 18 GBPS. I used cat6A shielded because it did not add too much to the installation cost and shielded added protection from electrical interference.

I have no knowledge of how to test the capacity of my wiring but would be willing to be and AVS forum test case if it would not cost too much.
Yeah, solid core CAT-6 cabling is rated at 550Mhz but there really isn't any correlation between Mhz (frequency) and Mbps (data transfer) so it is difficult to figure out. I know that I can easily send HDR (Dolby Vision, HDR10) from my router to my ATV4k via solid core CAT-6 and then get that to my 65 C8 via HDMI with zero issues but I don't know if that qualifies or not as a test. Pushing 4k HDR directly from a storage device via CAT-6 may be a different matter.

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Yes, Netflix 4K HDR required 25 mbps while 4K HDR from a disc uses 18 GBPS

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Yes, Netflix 4K HDR required 25 mbps while 4K HDR from a disc uses 18 GBPS
Yep. And that's what I was referring too. I don't know if solid core CAT-6 can handle 4k HDR from a UHD-BD player. A better option might be a hybrid fiber cable like the Rupro4k. I know that can handle 18Gbps just like the Premium High Speed HDMI copper cables can, (which are limited to 25'). It would appear that the solid core CAT-6/HDBT solution (once Valens releases the new chipsets) might be the best alternative to hybrid fiber, for now. 70' is long for any cable, even hybrid fiber if one wants/needs ARC/eARC. If your CAT-6 ethernet cables are passive you may be screwed. If they are active, a voltage inserter may help. 1080p was easy-breezy. 4k HDR really messed things up for you long runs folks

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Yep. And that's what I was referring too. I don't know if solid core CAT-6 can handle 4k HDR from a UHD-BD player. A better option might be a hybrid fiber cable like the Rupro4k. I know that can handle 18Gbps just like the Premium High Speed HDMI copper cables can, (which are limited to 25'). It would appear that the solid core CAT-6/HDBT solution (once Valens releases the new chipsets) might be the best alternative to hybrid fiber, for now. 70' is long for any cable, even hybrid fiber if one wants/needs ARC/eARC. If your CAT-6 ethernet cables are passive you may be screwed. If they are active, a voltage inserter may help. 1080p was easy-breezy. 4k HDR really messed things up for you long runs folks
I am able to play Netflix 4K UHd at 70 feet even with patch cable added to an RJ45 wall jack at the end of the cat6A shielded, grounded run. Valens is claiming that the VS 3000 chip can achieve 16 GBPS with category cable and:
Audio & video, 1Gb Ethernet, USB 2.0, controls & power
Uncompressed HDMI 2.0 [email protected] 4:4:4 for up to 100m/328ft
HDBaseT port Duality – configurable to Tx or Rx device
On-chip HDCP engines and audio extract & insert capabilities

So, I will keep and eye out for the launch and testing.

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I think what is basically happening is they're relying on the capability of CAT6A to do full duplex 10gpbs ethernet (ie 20gbps altogether for both directions) and running most of that in one direction for the HDMI link, with the spare being used for the 1gbps ethernet.

Supposedly re: CAT6, not CAT6A, for 10G ethernet:
"TSB-155-A states that “10GBASE-T should operate over channel lengths of up to 37 meters of
Category 6 cabling, and should operate over channel lengths between 37 and 55 meters of Category
6 cabling depending on the alien crosstalk environment".

So assuming the underlying PHYs used are similar to 10G ethernet, you'd hope similarly you should be good for HDBT on CAT6 at around the lengths above. My CAT6 lengths are <20m each, without much in the way of gear to cause a crosstalk issue and without any junctions or patch panels, so hopefully these might work well with the VS3000 chipset products when they start to arrive.

Re: the posts above about streaming netflix on CAT6 over distance; the requirements for Netflix 4K etc are well over a couple of orders of magnitude less than 18G HDMI, thanks to the advanced compression used. 100BaseT ethernet is way more than is required for Netflix 4k.
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Re: the posts above about streaming netflix on CAT6 over distance; the requirements for Netflix 4K etc are well over a couple of orders of magnitude less than 18G HDMI, thanks to the advanced compression used. 100BaseT ethernet is way more than is required for Netflix 4k.
I get about 300Mbps down with the Ookla SpeedTest app on my ATV4k connected via solid core CAT-6 to a gigabit switch, and then a CAT-6 ethernet cable to the ATV4k. The solid core run from the router to the upstairs ATV4k is about 100'. 4k HDR (Dolby Vision, HDR10) is trouble-free.

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I get about 300Mbps down with the Ookla SpeedTest app on my ATV4k connected via solid core CAT-6 to a gigabit switch, and then a CAT-6 ethernet cable to the ATV4k. The solid core run from the router to the upstairs ATV4k is about 100'. 4k HDR (Dolby Vision, HDR10) is trouble-free.
It is still in the noise and an indicator of nothing. Pretty much any CAT6 (in fact, any CAT5E - I have a 100m reel here I use for testing stuff) up to 100m should achieve gigabit/s (1000mbit/s) under testing. 4K Netflix is only around 16mbit/s, which is tiny by comparison. 18G HDMI is if I recall 16000mbits /sec at max spec as the HDMI error checking encoding takes the 16000mbits /sec up to 18000mbits / sec).
As you can see the challenges of uncompressed video dwarf those of streaming HDR 4K video. Of course, the process Netflix etc go through to get full fat uncompressed 4k HDR video down to 16mbps is a lossy one, but we're trying to avoid such processes on the way to our display.

CAT6A is the first cable that is guaranteed to anything close for 100m - 10000mbit/sec in both directions simultaneously. So there is 20000mbit/sec available, so it should be able to do 18G HDMI with the pairs reconfigured to mostly be in one direction. CAT6 it looks like is only certain to be good to 37m for that kind of throughput. Though it isn't clear if the distances discussed for the new HDbaseT directly map onto the 10G ethernet capabilities of a given cable.
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It is still in the noise and an indicator of nothing. Pretty much any CAT6 (in fact, any CAT5E - I have a 100m reel here I use for testing stuff) up to 100m should achieve gigabit/s (1000mbit/s) under testing. 4K Netflix is only around 16mbit/s, which is tiny by comparison. 18G HDMI is if I recall 16000mbits /sec at max spec as the HDMI error checking encoding takes the 16000mbits /sec up to 18000mbits / sec).
As you can see the challenges of uncompressed video dwarf those of streaming HDR 4K video. Of course, the process Netflix etc go through to get full fat uncompressed 4k HDR video down to 16mbps is a lossy one, but we're trying to avoid such processes on the way to our display.

CAT6A is the first cable that is guaranteed to anything close for 100m - 10000mbit/sec in both directions simultaneously. So there is 20000mbit/sec available, so it should be able to do 18G HDMI with the pairs reconfigured to mostly be in one direction. CAT6 it looks like is only certain to be good to 37m for that kind of throughput. Though it isn't clear if the distances discussed for the new HDbaseT directly map onto the 10G ethernet capabilities of a given cable.
I just posted my speeds etc as an example of what my setup is capable of. I know it does't prove anything. The thing that I struggle with is the relationship between frequency and data rate. IOW, can one use 550Mhz as any sort of guide as to what the data rate (Mbps) would or could be?

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I just posted my speeds etc as an example of what my setup is capable of. I know it does't prove anything. The thing that I struggle with is the relationship between frequency and data rate. IOW, can one use 550Mhz as any sort of guide as to what the data rate (Mbps) would or could be?
Being able to send 18 GBPS over a cable is a big advance.

The problem for a HDBT matrix is a content source which currently is going to need to be discs. I can imagine a five disc carousel, that has been done before. And there would also need to be reasonably priced switches.

Am I on the right track to making the VA-3000 a useful purchase for a home system?

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Originally Posted by Postmoderndesign View Post
Being able to send 18 GBPS over a cable is a big advance.

The problem for a HDBT matrix is a content source which currently is going to need to be discs. I can imagine a five disc carousel, that has been done before. And there would also need to be reasonably priced switches.

Am I on the right track to making the VA-3000 a useful purchase for a home system?
I don't know if anyone at this point in time can give you a definitive answer. One of the issues with HDBT in the past was compression. With the new Valens chipsets, once they are available, hopefully that will change. Switches always complicate matters.

The resident go-to around here for HDBT is Joe Fernand. Hopefully he'll see this post and respond.

I never trust an atom, they make up everything.
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