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-   -   What went wrong with CEC and will it ever get better? (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/168-hdmi-q-one-connector-world/3091442-what-went-wrong-cec-will-ever-get-better.html)

slateX 09-17-2019 10:16 PM

What went wrong with CEC and will it ever get better?
 
What went wrong with CEC?
If it is a standard, why is functionality hit and miss?
When a company uses the acronym "CEC" on its specifications list, why does this not guarantee that it will work with other products that do the same? Is there no official test? Is there no repercussion for misrepresentations (lies) on product spec sheets?

If I buy a USB 3.0 cable, the cable will work with USB 3.0 devices. Why is CEC not the same?

It seems like CEC doesn't work well > consumers suck it up and put up with poor CEC > companies don't try to make CEC work well > CEC doesn't work well


I just upgraded a 10 year old TV to a new one, and the new one works worse with CEC than the old one.

The internet is full of people shrugging their shoulders over CEC problems.

Some companies /claim/ that certain functionality is intended, but aren't consistent within their own products (ask Samsung whether a TV should turn on a Receiver).

Where are CEC settings? Why is CEC just a toggle? Why can't I decide if I want my TV to turn on the receiver or not?

I thought I read that a new CEC revision or successor was in the works for HDMI 2.1, but I can't find details.

Otto Pylot 09-17-2019 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slateX (Post 58573130)
What went wrong with CEC?
If it is a standard, why is functionality hit and miss?
When a company uses the acronym "CEC" on its specifications list, why does this not guarantee that it will work with other products that do the same? Is there no official test? Is there no repercussion for misrepresentations (lies) on product spec sheets?

If I buy a USB 3.0 cable, the cable will work with USB 3.0 devices. Why is CEC not the same?

It seems like CEC doesn't work well > consumers suck it up and put up with poor CEC > companies don't try to make CEC work well > CEC doesn't work well


I just upgraded a 10 year old TV to a new one, and the new one works worse with CEC than the old one.

The internet is full of people shrugging their shoulders over CEC problems.

Some companies /claim/ that certain functionality is intended, but aren't consistent within their own products (ask Samsung whether a TV should turn on a Receiver).

Where are CEC settings? Why is CEC just a toggle? Why can't I decide if I want my TV to turn on the receiver or not?

I thought I read that a new CEC revision or successor was in the works for HDMI 2.1, but I can't find details.

CEC is not really standardized in the sense that all of the device mfrs have to follow the same set of protocols. They just have to provide Consumer Electronic Control via HDMI. In the early days, CEC was part of the same chipset that also had ARC, so if there were issues with CEC, ARC could be affected as well. At one time, CEC Extensions was supposed to part of the new HDMI 2.1 hardware protocols but I don't know what happened to that because I haven't been able to find for sure if it made it to the final ratification or not. Some newer devices do allow for separate control of ARC and CEC, either partially or completely.

A lot of us just find it easier to use a programmable remote like a Harmony for single remote control of our HTS's. If one needs ARC, then there's the Lindy CECless dongle that prevents the CEC commands but still allows for ARC.

slateX 09-19-2019 01:04 AM

I really appreciate your reply. I am disappointed, but at least now I know. I could have sworn I had found a table of commands and the appropriate signaling (rising edges and such) somewhere, but it had been a long day and I can't find it again.

I have had two Harmony remotes, the first one was decent (except for when a device got out of sync), the second one ditched too many physical buttons and I couldn't deal.

I've been having some luck with smart come controls. Apps also seem to be pretty commonplace now. I just wish for something as programmable and versatile as a smart home (Google, Alexa, App) that also has a good (like /really/ good) button layout.

Otto Pylot, I seem to be running in to you everywhere.

Otto Pylot 09-19-2019 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slateX (Post 58578526)
I really appreciate your reply. I am disappointed, but at least now I know. I could have sworn I had found a table of commands and the appropriate signaling (rising edges and such) somewhere, but it had been a long day and I can't find it again.

I have had two Harmony remotes, the first one was decent (except for when a device got out of sync), the second one ditched too many physical buttons and I couldn't deal.

I've been having some luck with smart come controls. Apps also seem to be pretty commonplace now. I just wish for something as programmable and versatile as a smart home (Google, Alexa, App) that also has a good (like /really/ good) button layout.

Otto Pylot, I seem to be running in to you everywhere.

The Harmony's have always worked well for our needs. I'm not into voice control so that's one less thing I have to worry about. I just use two Harmony 700's for both of my HTS's.

I did reply to your other post about HDMI et al. It would be best to keep all HDMI-specific questions to this forum. It makes it easier for us to reply and for others to use the Search features.

liffie420 09-19-2019 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slateX (Post 58573130)
What went wrong with CEC?
If it is a standard, why is functionality hit and miss?
When a company uses the acronym "CEC" on its specifications list, why does this not guarantee that it will work with other products that do the same? Is there no official test? Is there no repercussion for misrepresentations (lies) on product spec sheets?

If I buy a USB 3.0 cable, the cable will work with USB 3.0 devices. Why is CEC not the same?

It seems like CEC doesn't work well > consumers suck it up and put up with poor CEC > companies don't try to make CEC work well > CEC doesn't work well


I just upgraded a 10 year old TV to a new one, and the new one works worse with CEC than the old one.

The internet is full of people shrugging their shoulders over CEC problems.

Some companies /claim/ that certain functionality is intended, but aren't consistent within their own products (ask Samsung whether a TV should turn on a Receiver).

Where are CEC settings? Why is CEC just a toggle? Why can't I decide if I want my TV to turn on the receiver or not?

I thought I read that a new CEC revision or successor was in the works for HDMI 2.1, but I can't find details.

Yeah CEC functionality has always been a bit of a crap shoot. I never bothered with it. The truth of the matter is I think most people never bothered with it, especially since something like a Harmony remote is so cheap and works almost %100 of the time. However on a recent firmware update for my 2018 Vizio P series REALLY screwed things up. I have a Polk soundbar connected via optical, now that will auto power on when it receives an audio signal via optical, I would assume it would via HDMI as well. Anyway the recent update cuts the audio signal on optical more often, like when an ad pops up during a youtube video for instance, so now my soundbar shots off for a second and then comes back up when it gets signal leaving like a 5 or 8 second delay before sound comes back on, and it is ANNOYING THE HELL out of me. It never did it before the firmware update :mad:

Otto Pylot 09-19-2019 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by liffie420 (Post 58580502)
Yeah CEC functionality has always been a bit of a crap shoot. I never bothered with it. The truth of the matter is I think most people never bothered with it, especially since something like a Harmony remote is so cheap and works almost %100 of the time. However on a recent firmware update for my 2018 Vizio P series REALLY screwed things up. I have a Polk soundbar connected via optical, now that will auto power on when it receives an audio signal via optical, I would assume it would via HDMI as well. Anyway the recent update cuts the audio signal on optical more often, like when an ad pops up during a youtube video for instance, so now my soundbar shots off for a second and then comes back up when it gets signal leaving like a 5 or 8 second delay before sound comes back on, and it is ANNOYING THE HELL out of me. It never did it before the firmware update :mad:

Check to see if the update re-enabled CEC. If you're using ARC, that may have been affected as well. You also might want to re-program your Harmony becuase something may have changed after the update with your Vizio. I just replaced an older Yamaha receiver which died, with a new Yamaha receiver for my LCD HTS (the OLED is upstairs ;)) and found the response better once I deleted the old receiver, downloaded the new codes from Logitech, and reset it up. Works much better.

liffie420 09-19-2019 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Otto Pylot (Post 58580636)
Check to see if the update re-enabled CEC. If you're using ARC, that may have been affected as well. You also might want to re-program your Harmony becuase something may have changed after the update with your Vizio. I just replaced an older Yamaha receiver which died, with a new Yamaha receiver for my LCD HTS (the OLED is upstairs ;)) and found the response better once I deleted the old receiver, downloaded the new codes from Logitech, and reset it up. Works much better.

Oh no it is certainly the update that did it. I never ran CEC or ARC, its why I stuck with optical, that and I don't need more than 5.1. I was actually surprised when I first got the soundbar that is powered on when it detects a optical signal, because well thats just not normal with an optical connection like it is with HDMI, also my Vizio remote will also control the volume level of the soundbar directly. Like volume up and down will raise the volume of the soundbar itself while displaying on the TV that the speakers are turned off. There was no programming it or anything, I have had the soundbar for a while, LOVE it actually, but had to replace my tv about 4 months ago when my other P series bit the dust. But literally right out the box the vizio controlled the volume on the soundbar. IT will power cycle when switching inputs as well, like say from tv to smart tv apps, and again it never did pre firmware update. This is actually the second or 3rd update the tv has had since I bought it.

But all that said I will check when I get home just to be sure.

Otto Pylot 09-19-2019 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by liffie420 (Post 58581000)
Oh no it is certainly the update that did it. <snip> But literally right out the box the vizio controlled the volume on the soundbar. IT will power cycle when switching inputs as well, like say from tv to smart tv apps, and again it never did pre firmware update. This is actually the second or 3rd update the tv has had since I bought it.

But all that said I will check when I get home just to be sure.

Sounds like CEC was a default setting if the tv controlled the soundbar volume. If you get power cycling when just switching inputs then yeah, that does sound like Vizio screwed the pooch on this one. I had Vizio's at one time but just gave up on them altogether because the build quality was inconsistent and the software (firmware) was glitchy. I thought that had changed with the newer models over the last couple of years given the number of positive reports here but maybe not.

liffie420 09-20-2019 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Otto Pylot (Post 58582222)
Sounds like CEC was a default setting if the tv controlled the soundbar volume. If you get power cycling when just switching inputs then yeah, that does sound like Vizio screwed the pooch on this one. I had Vizio's at one time but just gave up on them altogether because the build quality was inconsistent and the software (firmware) was glitchy. I thought that had changed with the newer models over the last couple of years given the number of positive reports here but maybe not.

Well got home yesterday and CEC was in fact turned off. Generally speaking I have not had any issues with both of my vizio's it was just this last update that it got all wonky lol

Otto Pylot 09-20-2019 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by liffie420 (Post 58584132)
Well got home yesterday and CEC was in fact turned off. Generally speaking I have not had any issues with both of my vizio's it was just this last update that it got all wonky lol

Hmm, well if in fact ARC/CEC is disabled on both of your devices, then it does sound like the update borked (a technical term ;)) your tv and you'll just have to work with Vizio. Sorry.

liffie420 09-20-2019 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Otto Pylot (Post 58584596)
Hmm, well if in fact ARC/CEC is disabled on both of your devices, then it does sound like the update borked (a technical term ;)) your tv and you'll just have to work with Vizio. Sorry.

Well ARC wouldn't come into play since it's an optical connection to the soundbar. It's really just a pretty minor annoyance really.

Otto Pylot 09-20-2019 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by liffie420 (Post 58584700)
Well ARC wouldn't come into play since it's an optical connection to the soundbar. It's really just a pretty minor annoyance really.

True. I'm just so used to saying ARC/CEC because they are usually associated with each other that it's a habit.

bryantc 09-23-2019 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slateX (Post 58573130)
Where are CEC settings? Why is CEC just a toggle? Why can't I decide if I want my TV to turn on the receiver or not?

This is also up to the manufacturer. The latest Nvidia Shield for example gives you a lot of granular control over which CEC functions to enable.

FWIW I use CEC on my family room setup and it works perfectly. I have a Sony TV, Denon AVR, AppleTV, and Nvidia Shield. All of it controlled with the single Sony TV remote.

When you turn the TV on it automatically turns the AVR on and uses the speakers. When you turn the TV off it turns off the AVR too. ARC works perfectly for TV apps and Live TV.

If everything is off someone can cast their iPhone to the AppleTV and it will turn the TV and AVR on and automatically switch to the proper input. You can then control the AppleTV thru the TV remote. And when you turn off the ATV it turns off the whole system. And it works the same with an Android phone and the Shield.

When I press the Input button on the TV remote it lists the ATV and Shield by name and I can switch to them individually even though they are both coming thru the same HDMI cable from the AVR to the TV.

Otto Pylot 09-23-2019 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bryantc (Post 58596426)
This is also up to the manufacturer. The latest Nvidia Shield for example gives you a lot of granular control over which CEC functions to enable.

FWIW I use CEC on my family room setup and it works perfectly. I have a Sony TV, Denon AVR, AppleTV, and Nvidia Shield. All of it controlled with the single Sony TV remote.

When you turn the TV on it automatically turns the AVR on and uses the speakers. When you turn the TV off it turns off the AVR too. ARC works perfectly for TV apps and Live TV.

If everything is off someone can cast their iPhone to the AppleTV and it will turn the TV and AVR on and automatically switch to the proper input. You can then control the AppleTV thru the TV remote. And when you turn off the ATV it turns off the whole system. And it works the same with an Android phone and the Shield.

When I press the Input button on the TV remote it lists the ATV and Shield by name and I can switch to them individually even though they are both coming thru the same HDMI cable from the AVR to the TV.

I do the same thing with my Harmony remotes, and I don't have to worry about anything going awry if one of my devices receives an update, because as you alluded to, it's up to the mfr as to how they want to implement CEC. And it's not uncommon for things to change even within the same product line after an update. CEC is a great idea but is poorly implemented over most mfrs. If it works, great. If it doesn't, you're screwed. And if you depend on ARC as well.......


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