4K video drop out with new AVR - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 3Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 43 Old 02-14-2020, 06:09 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Otto Pylot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bull Mountain, OR
Posts: 15,634
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3728 Post(s)
Liked: 2688
Quote:
Originally Posted by spshultz View Post
I got the power inserter yesterday and unfortunately it was of no help. I'm still waiting for the Certified Premium Monoprice cables to arrive. Probably a few more days.

My initial issue with random video dropouts with the Denon X4500H in the middle of the HDMI signal chain was basically resolved with using a booster/repeater on the copper Kabel Direkt 25' cable. And it was also resolved if I use the 33' RUIPRO active fiber cable.

However, with the Denon in the middle of the signal chain, any time I start a movie there is a 10-15 second delay before the video starts yet the audio starts immediately. The problem only occurs when viewing movies or TV shows on one of the streaming services. Viewing YouTube videos does not have this issue for some reason. If the Blu-ray player is connected directly to the projector with either of the cables above then I have maybe a half second delay before video starts which is more than acceptable due to the cable length.

I just wish I understood better what happens in the HDMI signal chain when a movie starts. Is it a handshake issue? Is it an HDCP issue? Is it a resolution conversion problem? Is it a YUV 4:4:4/4:2:2/4:2:0 compatibility problem between the three devices? I'm completely clueless.

That does sound like a handshake issue with the Denon. I have noticed that on my system, with the Ruipro4k cables, that when I switch to either the ATV4k or the UBK90 inputs, there is a momentary delay while the device is initializing and waiting for the input signal. That usually only lasts about 10-15 seconds at best. Once the device is detected, there are no issues. When I use the input for Comcast HDTV (which is local broadcast stations only, no streaming), then the video appears almost instantly but the audio will take about 10 seconds or so come on. I don't remember ever seeing this with the Premium High Speed HDMI cables (BJC) that I was using previously. It's not a big deal to me because playback is not affected, only initialization, so I attribute this to the use of an active cable vs a passive cable, at least on my system (Yamaha receivers).



I just use YCbCr 4:2:0 chroma for my two devices because that's what most source material uses. 4:4:4 is used mostly for pc connections. Sorry to hear that the voltage inserter didn't improve your situation. At least you tried.

I never trust an atom, they make up everything.
Otto Pylot is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 43 Old 02-15-2020, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Colorado
Posts: 108
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Just a quick update on a change that I did that decreased the video start delay by almost half.

Otto, you mentioned above that you use YCbCR 4:2:0 and that jogged a memory. I remember seeing a spot in my Blu-ray player settings where I could change this. In the Sony UBP-X800 the setting is:

[YCbCr/RGB (HDMI)]

The options are: Auto, YCbCr(4:2:2), YCbCR(4:4:4) and RGB.


I've always just left it at Auto. This morning I set it to 4:2:2 and sure enough the delay was reduced from about 11 seconds to 6 seconds. As an example, with it set to Auto and starting a Netflix HDR movie, the video wouldn't display until seconds into the start of the movie. With it set to 4:2:2 I only miss the zooming Netflix logo but now am able to watch the very start of the movie. I have no clue why that would even make a difference but it did. Could it be because it reduced the bandwidth of the signal which helped with the handshake?

Since the projector will only ever be used for Movies, Dish Network TV shows and the occasional YouTube video, I think 4:2:2 should be just fine.

I'm going to watch a few new movies this weekend to see if there's any change in the quality of the video but from the quick checks I did, I didn't see any difference. And I'm still waiting for those Monoprice cables to get here. From a little digging I've done it seems as though the Kabel Direkt 25' cable I have is somewhere between 26 awg to 28 awg. The Monoprice cable is 24 awg. I may reconnect the RUIPRO cable with the player set at 4:2:2 to see if there's any difference there.
spshultz is offline  
post #33 of 43 Old 02-15-2020, 12:42 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Otto Pylot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bull Mountain, OR
Posts: 15,634
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3728 Post(s)
Liked: 2688
Quote:
Originally Posted by spshultz View Post
Just a quick update on a change that I did that decreased the video start delay by almost half.

Otto, you mentioned above that you use YCbCR 4:2:0 and that jogged a memory. I remember seeing a spot in my Blu-ray player settings where I could change this. In the Sony UBP-X800 the setting is:

[YCbCr/RGB (HDMI)]

The options are: Auto, YCbCr(4:2:2), YCbCR(4:4:4) and RGB.


I've always just left it at Auto. This morning I set it to 4:2:2 and sure enough the delay was reduced from about 11 seconds to 6 seconds. As an example, with it set to Auto and starting a Netflix HDR movie, the video wouldn't display until seconds into the start of the movie. With it set to 4:2:2 I only miss the zooming Netflix logo but now am able to watch the very start of the movie. I have no clue why that would even make a difference but it did. Could it be because it reduced the bandwidth of the signal which helped with the handshake?

Since the projector will only ever be used for Movies, Dish Network TV shows and the occasional YouTube video, I think 4:2:2 should be just fine.

I'm going to watch a few new movies this weekend to see if there's any change in the quality of the video but from the quick checks I did, I didn't see any difference. And I'm still waiting for those Monoprice cables to get here. From a little digging I've done it seems as though the Kabel Direkt 25' cable I have is somewhere between 26 awg to 28 awg. The Monoprice cable is 24 awg. I may reconnect the RUIPRO cable with the player set at 4:2:2 to see if there's any difference there.

Auto should work because the signal detected will be automatically set to what ever the sink device can handle, at least in theory. It could be that sending a chroma that is not fully supported causes some delays in interpreting the data stream. I personally can't tell any difference between 4:2:0, 4:2:2, and 4:4:4 so I just leave my output at 4:2:0 and let my sink (the C8) decide for itself. Works perfectly for us because everything can handle 4:2:0 YCbCr.



The Ruipro wire gauge is copper AWG26/28/30 shielded/twisted. Ruipro can handle 2160/30p for 4:2:2 8/10/12-bit, 4:2:0 8-bit, and 2160/60p for 4:2:0 8/10/12/16-bit, 4:2:2 8/10/12-bit and 4:4:4 8-bit. I wouldn't bother with 4:4:4 unless you're connecting a computer and trying to read text. However, playing computer games is a different story because they don't have to follow cinema guidelines.

I never trust an atom, they make up everything.
Otto Pylot is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #34 of 43 Old 02-15-2020, 01:26 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ratman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Collingswood, N.J.
Posts: 19,727
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2528 Post(s)
Liked: 2339
Quote:
Originally Posted by spshultz View Post
I've always just left it at Auto. This morning I set it to 4:2:2 and sure enough the delay was reduced from about 11 seconds to 6 seconds.

Well, that's some progress.



With that change in mind, have you also tried experimenting again with the options in the Denon? [shrug]

Maybe you can "buy" a few more seconds.



http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX4500H/N...SYmlxuhedk.php



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein

Last edited by Ratman; 02-15-2020 at 01:35 PM.
Ratman is online now  
post #35 of 43 Old 02-15-2020, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Colorado
Posts: 108
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Well, that's some progress.

With that change in mind, have you also tried changing (experimenting) with the options in the Denon?

http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX4500H/N...SYmlxuhedk.php

I actually have, a lot , and all of them within the Video Settings section of the OSD.

For future searches here's what I've messed around with:

HDMI Pass Through - I set this to Off only because it only affects the system in Standby Mode.
Pass Through Source - Set to Last as I don't feel there's really a need to change it.
HDMI Control - I don't use ARC/CED/any kind of Control functions
ARC - Off
HDMI Video Output - Set to Monitor 1. Tried Auto and Monitor 2 (w/the cable on 2) and no change.
Video Mode - Set to Movie. Have also tried Auto and Game with no change.
Video Conversion - Set to off so that the video signal is not converted. Tried On but no change.
i/p Scaler - Set to Off. I really haven't tried this one yet.
Resolution - Set to Auto. I tried 4K but it didn't make any difference.
Progressive Mode - Set to Auto. I haven't messed with this one yet. Not quite sure what it does.
Aspect Ratio - Set to 16:9
4K Signal Format - Set to Enhanced currently. Tried Standard but it didn't seem to make any difference.

Even tried the HDMI ports (CD/Aux2/Media Player) closest to the Monitor 1 output port and no change.
And tried HDMI-2 on the projector and no change.

It's all quite frustrating, however, it's juuuuuust close enough now to where, if the Monoprice cables don't get rid of the delay altogether then I'll just live with it. My next upgrade is going to be a better Blu-ray player. This Sony is kinda buggy. I've had Panasonics in the past and those were always rock solid for me.
spshultz is offline  
post #36 of 43 Old 02-15-2020, 01:52 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Out West
Posts: 1,828
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1017 Post(s)
Liked: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by spshultz View Post
I actually have, a lot , and all of them within the Video Settings section of the OSD.
Are you getting 24p output from Netflix 4K?
DunMunro is offline  
post #37 of 43 Old 02-15-2020, 02:04 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Colorado
Posts: 108
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
Are you getting 24p output from Netflix 4K?

Yeah. I notice that the projector shows 2160 60p when browsing the Netflix menu and then when I select a movie there's the Netflix buffering red ring. Once the buffering completes (only a second or two) then the projector starts making some whirring sounds while it shows "HDMI no Source" and then the whirring sound stops on the projector and the movie video finally displays with the projector showing 2160 24p.


I wish the Denon AVR-X4500H I have had the HDMI diagnostic test feature that some of the other Denons have. It might be helpful.

Last edited by spshultz; 02-15-2020 at 02:13 PM.
spshultz is offline  
post #38 of 43 Old 02-15-2020, 03:46 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Out West
Posts: 1,828
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1017 Post(s)
Liked: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by spshultz View Post
Yeah. I notice that the projector shows 2160 60p when browsing the Netflix menu and then when I select a movie there's the Netflix buffering red ring. Once the buffering completes (only a second or two) then the projector starts making some whirring sounds while it shows "HDMI no Source" and then the whirring sound stops on the projector and the movie video finally displays with the projector showing 2160 24p.


I wish the Denon AVR-X4500H I have had the HDMI diagnostic test feature that some of the other Denons have. It might be helpful.
OK that's interesting.

The projector has a frame interpolation feature "Puremotion" that helps (probably in combination with an altered DLP colour wheel speed) produce smooth output from non 60hz sources. You might experiment with the Puremotion settings on the projector.
DunMunro is offline  
post #39 of 43 Old 02-15-2020, 03:54 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Colorado
Posts: 108
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
OK that's interesting.

The projector has a frame interpolation feature "Puremotion" that helps (probably in combination with an altered DLP colour wheel speed) produce smooth output from non 60hz sources. You might experiment with the Puremotion settings on the projector.

I have had PureMotion turned off from day 1. I'll tinker with it later tonight to see if it makes any difference other than just the soap opera effect.
spshultz is offline  
post #40 of 43 Old Yesterday, 08:32 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ratman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Collingswood, N.J.
Posts: 19,727
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2528 Post(s)
Liked: 2339
Quote:
Originally Posted by spshultz View Post
I actually have, a lot , and all of them within the Video Settings section of the OSD.
I meant to suggest that you try again since the change(s) made in the Sony.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
Ratman is online now  
post #41 of 43 Old Yesterday, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Colorado
Posts: 108
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
I meant to suggest that you try again since the change(s) made in the Sony.

Ah. I understand now. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Last night I retried all of the settings and there was no change. The best so far is having the blu-ray player output 4:2:2 with no auto option.

I did not try enabling the PureMotion setting on the projector yet.

There is one other test I may try later in the week when I have some time and that is to move my AVR and blu-ray player directly under the projector and use a 10' cable and see if that changes the delay time any.

Side note frustration: My Monoprice cables have been in state since Feb 12 (ordered on Feb 10) and won't arrive at the house until Feb 18. I've ordered stuff directly from France and China that came faster than these cables.
spshultz is offline  
post #42 of 43 Old Yesterday, 12:49 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Otto Pylot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bull Mountain, OR
Posts: 15,634
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3728 Post(s)
Liked: 2688
Quote:
Originally Posted by spshultz View Post
Side note frustration: My Monoprice cables have been in state since Feb 12 (ordered on Feb 10) and won't arrive at the house until Feb 18. I've ordered stuff directly from France and China that came faster than these cables.

If they are Premium High Speed cables then it could be a supply and demand problem from whom ever their supplier/mfr is. Patience Grasshopper

I never trust an atom, they make up everything.
Otto Pylot is online now  
post #43 of 43 Old Yesterday, 01:41 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ratman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Collingswood, N.J.
Posts: 19,727
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2528 Post(s)
Liked: 2339
Quote:
Originally Posted by spshultz View Post
There is one other test I may try later in the week when I have some time and that is to move my AVR and blu-ray player directly under the projector and use a 10' cable and see if that changes the delay time any.
It's worth the test for peace of mind, but I don't think a 10 or 25' distance will have much of an effect on video "delay". We're talking electrons in the cable moving at close to speed of light.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
Ratman is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply HDMI Q&A - The One Connector World

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off