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post #1 of 44 Old 02-06-2020, 05:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Question 4K video drop out with new AVR

I'm hoping someone can help me understand what it is that's occurring with my current set up.

About 1.5 years ago I installed the following equipment:

Optoma UHD51ALV 4K projector
Sony UBP-X800 4k Blu-ray player
KabelDirekt 25ft 4K HDMI cable
Onkyo TX-NR809 Receiver
Klipsch 5.1 speakers

The length from my Audio rack to the projector requires a 25ft cable.

Because my Onkyo would not support full 4K I opted to just use it for audio only. I connected the 4K HDMI cable directly from the Sony to the projector. And then just used the HDMI audio out on the Sony to connect to the Onkyo. For 1.5 years I never had an issue.

Note: I am not using any wall plate connection points. The cable is run into the wall, through the ceiling and out to the projector.

Recently I purchased a Denon AVR-X4500H from Accessories4Less and purchased another KabelDirekt 4k HDMI cable (6 ft) to connect between the Sony and Denon because I had such good luck with the first cable. Now I'm getting random video drop outs every few minutes. Audio is fine but it's the video that has the issue.

Since I'm very new to this, my thought is that the 25' cable I'm using is pretty much rated for 25' and that's it. When I connect the Sony to the Denon with the 6' cable I'm effectively increasing the length of the HDMI chain to 31'+ which is probably just beyond the threshold of what a modest/cheap 4K cable can handle. Is my thought process here correct?

Note: I did connect the Denon and Sony to a 4K TV I have using 10' and 6' 4K KabelDirekt cables I have and it worked perfectly with no dropout.

If I'm correct how do I fix this? I've been doing some searching and the Ruipro B06XGDFCSC 10m (33') Fiber 4K HDMI cable looks like it could be the fix I need but I hate to spend that much money for something that may not work. What I don't know is if it will work with the KabelDirekt 6' cable that I have now or will I have to purchase a better cable for that connection too? The wire run through the wall and ceiling is a real bear so I only want to do it once.

OR....because of my total distance, will I have to go with something like the Metra Ethereal HDM-GA1 (or GA2)? That unit is well outside of the price point I'm comfortable with.

Any and all help is very much appreciated! Thanks.
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post #2 of 44 Old 02-06-2020, 07:57 AM
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post #3 of 44 Old 02-06-2020, 08:06 AM
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@spshultz, what 25' cable do you have? U had a cable that I thought was good enough, and got blue screen. I then got a RUIPRO 33' for my Denon to my JVC projector, and have been happy since. Did you check your setting in the Denon? I think it might have been @Dominic Chan or @claw that helped a user with 4K and video drop out with a Denon.
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post #4 of 44 Old 02-06-2020, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by lizrussspike View Post
@spshultz, what 25' cable do you have? .

Click the "BLUE" link in his opening post.


https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008U7SL4C...ding=UTF8&th=1


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Originally Posted by lizrussspike View Post
Did you check your setting in the Denon?
This may be helpful:
http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX4500H/N...SYzvebvotm.php



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post #5 of 44 Old 02-06-2020, 08:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks gentlemen!

Looks like I'll be needing an active cable for the length of run I have.

lizrussspike, I have this passive cable:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...0?ie=UTF8&th=1

I tried most of the video settings on the Denon and nothing made any difference. I've adjusted/played around with the following settings:

"HDMI Video Output" I've tried both Monitor 1 and Monitor 2 with no change.
"4K Signal Format" to both Standard and Enhanced and no change
"Resolution" is set to "Auto"
"Video Mode" is set to "Auto"
"Video Conversion" is set to "Off"
"i/p Scaler" is set to "Off"
I even connected the Sony to the "Game" port on the Denon which is closer to the Monitor 1 output and still no change.
And I don't use any kind of CEC, ARC, HDMI Control.
I also tried turning off "Deep Color" on the Sony but still no joy.

I believe it's just the limit of the 25' cable I have that's the issue. My worry is that going with an active Fiber cable I may damage it while fishing it through the wall and across the ceiling. I'd like to be able to tape the new cable to the old cable and very gently pull it through the ceiling and wall so that I don't have to re-fish the cable. Unfortunately there is no conduit installed so it is a pain to do.

What about active copper cables? Are they hit or miss when it comes to 25'+ lengths?
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post #6 of 44 Old 02-06-2020, 09:20 AM
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I’m using a 50’ Monoprice SlimRun to a 4K Sony TV in the bar and a 33’ Ruipro from my Denon 4400 to my JVC RS2000. I was using an identical 50’ Monoprice SlimRun to the projector for a while but sold it when I sold my previous projector.

No cables sustained damage when pulled through 1 1/2” Carlon ResiGuard tubing and I’ve had no cable-related drop-outs using these cables. I did have a drop-out issue related to the Sony TV’s Android OS, but the HD Fury Vertex 2 I bought solved the issue once properly configured.


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post #7 of 44 Old 02-06-2020, 09:35 AM
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@spshultz, I had a 25-30ft Amazon 4K hdmi cable, and it did not work. Getting the RUIPRO solved my issues.
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post #8 of 44 Old 02-06-2020, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks everyone! I appreciate the info and experiences. I've decided to order the RUIPRO. I'm hoping to have some time this Sunday to get the cable fished and connected. Before running it in the walls I'll connect it up to everything to ensure there are no dropouts.


Update: I placed the order on Amazon and interestingly enough it applied a $28.00 off coupon. It doesn't show why but hey! that's $28.00 saved. I'm not complaining.
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post #9 of 44 Old 02-06-2020, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spshultz View Post
Thanks everyone! I appreciate the info and experiences. I've decided to order the RUIPRO. I'm hoping to have some time this Sunday to get the cable fished and connected. Before running it in the walls I'll connect it up to everything to ensure there are no dropouts.


Update: I placed the order on Amazon and interestingly enough it applied a $28.00 off coupon. It doesn't show why but hey! that's $28.00 saved. I'm not complaining.

If I might add a little nugget here..... Ruipro4k cables are very well made and work extremely well for most folks. However, there have been some instances when the active cable wasn't able to draw enough consistent power to be 100% reliable. That's not a cable defect but an issue with some HDMI inputs not delivering consistent power that would dip just below the threshold. The fix for that would be a power inserter at the sink end. So if you have sporadic issues, try a power inserter to see if that corrects the problem. The new Ruipro8k cables which will be released soon come with a power inserter, just in case.


Lay out the new cabling on the floor first and test thoroughly before installing it to make sure it meets your needs and expectations. Without a conduit you will need to be VERY careful fishing the cable thru because you don't want to damage the connector ends. The Ruipro cables have a very generous bend radius but you still need to be careful with bends.
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post #10 of 44 Old 02-06-2020, 11:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for that tidbit of info regarding the power inserter. When you say the "sink" end do you mean at the Blu-ray player? If so, and I have a Chromecast and DishNetwork Joey, would I need a power inserter for each one of those as well?
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Originally Posted by spshultz View Post
Thanks for that tidbit of info regarding the power inserter. When you say the "sink" end do you mean at the Blu-ray player? If so, and I have a Chromecast and DishNetwork Joey, would I need a power inserter for each one of those as well?

No. The source end is where the signal is coming from and the sink end is where the signal ends. So, if a receiver is in the mix it would go: BD player (source) -> receiver (sink) -> receiver (source) -> tv (sink). This is only important for active cables, which are "uni-directional". For passive cables, it doesn't matter which end goes where because neither end draws any HDMI input power.


For example, in my system that I'm using for evaluation, I have my ATV4k connecting to the receiver with a power inserter at the receiver end. The cable that goes from the receiver to the tv has a power inserter at the tv end. Keep in mind that you may not even need a power inserter. On my system, I'm evaluating the cables with and without the power inserters.


If you don't have any issues without the use of a power inserter, then don't install one. The point is that if you don't get a consistent signal, try the power inserters. That may correct the issue.

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post #12 of 44 Old 02-06-2020, 01:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks you Otto for all of the info. The cable is due to arrive tomorrow and so hopefully all will be well on Sunday after I install it.
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Originally Posted by spshultz View Post
Thanks you Otto for all of the info. The cable is due to arrive tomorrow and so hopefully all will be well on Sunday after I install it.

Let us know.

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post #14 of 44 Old 02-07-2020, 02:19 AM
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As above ensure you install the RuiPro4K cable the correct way around - the HDMI connectors are marked Source and Display.

When taping the RuiPro4K to the existing cable ensure you tape well past the HDMI connectors and pull the cable not the connector!

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post #15 of 44 Old 02-07-2020, 04:44 AM
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Good point @Joe Fernand, I forgot to mention that each end has an arrow on it. Pretty self explanatory, but could be a pain if running thru a wall.
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post #16 of 44 Old 02-08-2020, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Update:


I got the RUIPRO 4k cable yesterday and was testing it last night and a little today. I just have it laying across the floor for now until I'm 100% sure I want/need to run it through the walls and ceiling. I also opted to purchase a 4K HDMI repeater for my copper cable just to see if that might work as well as the RUIPRO fibre cable.

I'll start with the Repeater tests first.

1st test: Blu-ray player (6' KabelDirekt cable) -> Denon X4500H (25' Kabel Direkt cable) -> Repeater (6' Kabel Direkt Cable) -> Projector. Repeater used in Passive mode (gets power from HDMI cable).

- YouTube: 4K 2160p 60hz works great. Looks beautiful. Absolutely no issues.
- Netflix 4K HDR movies: Audio starts first with no issues but then there's a delay of about 15-25 seconds before the video displays. Sometimes the video won't even start at all and all I get is audio. It's pretty random. The projector just displays "HDMI1 no Signal" until the video will or will not start.
- Amazon 4K: The same thing as Netflix. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.
- 4K Disc (Godzilla: King of the Monsters): I didn't try this yet.

Note-1: No video drop outs at all if I am able to watch a movie or show.
Note-2: If I plug in the power cord to the Repeater it makes no difference. Does the same thing.

2nd test: Blu-ray player (25' Kabel Direkt cable) -> Repeater (6' Kabel Direkt Cable) -> Projector. Repeater used in Passive mode (gets power from HDMI cable). Using the Denon for audio only with no video pass-thru.

- YouTube, Netflix and Amazon all work perfectly. No dropouts and no video start up delays except for maybe 1 second. Then again this configuration works perfectly even without the repeater.
- 4K Disc (Godzilla: King of the Monsters): I didn't try this yet but I'm sure it won't have any issues.


Now the RUIPRO cable:

1st test: Blu-ray player (6' copper KabelDirekt cable) -> Denon X4500H (33' RUIPRO cable) -> Projector.

- YouTube: 4K 2160p 60hz works great. Looks beautiful. Absolutely no issues. I think the picture quality may even be a hair more colorful and vivid but it's hard to say.
- Netflix 4K HDR movies: Audio starts first with no issues but then there's a delay of about 5-10 seconds before the video displays. After that time the video will display and the movie plays perfectly. The movie will always play.
- Amazon 4K: The same thing as Netflix.
- 4K Disc (Godzilla: King of the Monsters): The same thing as Netflix and Amazon.

Note: No video drop outs at all. Movies look gorgeous.

2nd test: Blu-ray player (33' RUIPRO cable) -> Projector. Denon used for audio only.

- YouTube, Netflix and Amazon all work perfectly. No dropouts and no video start up delays except for maybe 1 second.
- 4K Disc (Godzilla: King of the Monsters): Worked perfectly. No dropouts and no video start up delays except for maybe 1 second.



With that said, I see a pattern where if the Denon is in the middle of the chain I get these video start delays. I don't know if it's a handshake issue or HDCP or some weird conversion/processing thing going on in the Denon. It's quite frustrating.


EDIT: I just went downstairs to see how the Denon setting "4K Signal Format" modes "Standard" and "Enhanced" affected the issue. I found that the copper cable has issues with the "Enhanced" mode. The RUIPRO was able to use either modes. With "Standard" mode selected and using the copper cable I am able to play any of the movies but the video is delayed 10-11 seconds after the audio starts. I think I may post all of this in the AVR section to see if anyone has come across this before. It would appear the Denon does process the signal instead of just passing it straight through untouched.

Last edited by spshultz; 02-08-2020 at 02:20 PM.
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post #17 of 44 Old 02-08-2020, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by spshultz View Post
Update:


I got the RUIPRO 4k cable yesterday and was testing it last night and a little today. I just have it laying across the floor for now until I'm 100% sure I want/need to run it through the walls and ceiling. I also opted to purchase a 4K HDMI repeater for my copper cable just to see if that might work as well as the RUIPRO fibre cable.

There have been some reported issues with active hybrid fiber cables and projectors. The fix, for some, has been to use a voltage inserter at the pj side. The thought is that for some reason, the HDMI inputs on the pj may have a little more power fluctuation that interferes with the chipsets in the cable. The output requirement for the hybrid fiber cables is only 50mA but there just may be enough variation to cause some slight issues. A power inserter regulates a constant 5v/50mA (at least) supply to the cable. I have noticed a slight handshaking issue with the Ruipro4k on a cable tv connection in that when the cable tv is first turned on, the video appears almost instantly and the audio will start about 10 seconds or so later. After that, no connections issues at all. Streaming with the ATV4k has no handshaking issues at all once the application loads (Netflix, Amazon Prime, Apple TV Plus, Disney +, etc).


I do know that there have been some issues with Denon receivers as of late (mostly eARC issues) but whether this is related to your Denon or the HDMI input on the pj or something else is difficult to say. The chipsets in these new generation hybrid fiber cables are becoming more and more sophisticated in order to handle 4k HDR and beyond over long distances so they may require tighter demands on the HDMI inputs. That being said, I think hybrid fiber cables in general, and specifically the Ruipro4k/8k cables are what's going to be needed going forward.

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post #18 of 44 Old 02-08-2020, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
There have been some reported issues with active hybrid fiber cables and projectors. The fix, for some, has been to use a voltage inserter at the pj side. The thought is that for some reason, the HDMI inputs on the pj may have a little more power fluctuation that interferes with the chipsets in the cable.

I do know that there have been some issues with Denon receivers as of late (mostly eARC issues) but whether this is related to your Denon or the HDMI input on the pj or something else is difficult to say. The chipsets in these new generation hybrid fiber cables are becoming more and more sophisticated in order to handle 4k HDR and beyond over long distances so they may require tighter demands on the HDMI inputs. That being said, I think hybrid fiber cables in general, and specifically the Ruipro4k/8k cables are what's going to be needed going forward.

Thanks for the reply! I am starting to believe the issue is the receiver HDMI. Both of the cables (copper and fiber) I have now work perfectly if connected straight from the Blu-ray player directly to the projector. I'm talking no delays, no dropouts, nothing. But once I put the Denon in the middle of the signal chain, boom, huge video delay at the start of any movie. Perhaps the voltage out on the HDMI port of the Denon is much lower than the HDMI port on the Blu-ray player?
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post #19 of 44 Old 02-08-2020, 03:45 PM
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Thanks for the reply! I am starting to believe the issue is the receiver HDMI. Both of the cables (copper and fiber) I have now work perfectly if connected straight from the Blu-ray player directly to the projector. I'm talking no delays, no dropouts, nothing. But once I put the Denon in the middle of the signal chain, boom, huge video delay at the start of any movie. Perhaps the voltage out on the HDMI port of the Denon is much lower than the HDMI port on the Blu-ray player?

The output amperes is just a theory. Nothing has been proven either way that I know of but someone came up with the idea of a voltage inserter that appears to have mitigated a lot of issues with active cables. They have actually been around for quite some time. I do know that one cable mfr is going to be including voltage inserters with their new 8k cables in case they are needed. My receivers are Yamaha's , but that is not to be interpreted as being better, just a different mfr.

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Quote:
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The output amperes is just a theory. Nothing has been proven either way that I know of but someone came up with the idea of a voltage inserter that appears to have mitigated a lot of issues with active cables. They have actually been around for quite some time. I do know that one cable mfr is going to be including voltage inserters with their new 8k cables in case they are needed. My receivers are Yamaha's , but that is not to be interpreted as being better, just a different mfr.

Thanks for the help so far. I really do appreciate it. If it's not to forward of me, would you mind sharing which power inserter(s) you went with? I checked Amazon for power and voltage inserter and there seems to be very few and the reviews are mediocre. If the power inserter doesn't help then I would have to believe the receiver could be faulty.


I am going to try other inputs and outputs on the receiver tonight to see if maybe Blu-ray 3 and Monitor-1 have issues.
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post #21 of 44 Old 02-08-2020, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by spshultz View Post
Thanks for the help so far. I really do appreciate it. If it's not to forward of me, would you mind sharing which power inserter(s) you went with? I checked Amazon for power and voltage inserter and there seems to be very few and the reviews are mediocre. If the power inserter doesn't help then I would have to believe the receiver could be faulty.


I am going to try other inputs and outputs on the receiver tonight to see if maybe Blu-ray 3 and Monitor-1 have issues.
The voltage inserters that I have were provided to me by the cable mfr who is having me evaluate their new cables for them so I don't know where they came from other than they were included with the cables. Sorry. You can always return them if they don't work.

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Ok, thanks. I'll put one on order tomorrow after I try the other HDMI ports tonight.
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post #23 of 44 Old 02-08-2020, 05:36 PM
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Ok, thanks. I'll put one on order tomorrow after I try the other HDMI ports tonight.

I did some searching and the voltage inserters that were sent to me look exactly like the Ruipro 5V USB power inserters, but the description says they are backwards compatible with HDMI 1.3 and 1.4.

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post #24 of 44 Old 02-10-2020, 06:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Just wanted to say thanks for looking into those. I've got one on order and it should be here by Friday. I also put two (3' and a 24.6') Monoprice Certified Premium cables on order just to see if there's any difference. They should be here next week sometime.



By the way, for future searches by anyone regarding KabelDirekt cables, they have discontinued their Repeater. You now have to purchase your own if you need one.
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^^^^^^ I don't think that the HDMI version has anything to do with the voltage inserter. The product description may have been an old one before HDMI 2.0 was introduced. All the voltage inserters do is maintain a constant 5v/500mA current to the active portion of the HDMI connector, unless there is some sort of current detection that is different from previous versions of HDMI. Voltage inserters do work but there are instances where they won't, usually due to the HDMI input on the device. This seems to happen a lot with projectors. Don't know why. Certainly can't hurt to try. I do know that at least for my setup, connecting a voltage inserter to the receiver end of the chain was difficult because of where the USB port was. 20" is sometimes not long enough. On the back of the tv, that's not an issues because there are usually USB ports well within that 20" limitation. I used the voltage inserters for my evaluation and didn't see any difference with or without them.

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post #26 of 44 Old 02-14-2020, 01:16 PM - Thread Starter
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I got the power inserter yesterday and unfortunately it was of no help. I'm still waiting for the Certified Premium Monoprice cables to arrive. Probably a few more days.

My initial issue with random video dropouts with the Denon X4500H in the middle of the HDMI signal chain was basically resolved with using a booster/repeater on the copper Kabel Direkt 25' cable. And it was also resolved if I use the 33' RUIPRO active fiber cable.

However, with the Denon in the middle of the signal chain, any time I start a movie there is a 10-15 second delay before the video starts yet the audio starts immediately. The problem only occurs when viewing movies or TV shows on one of the streaming services. Viewing YouTube videos does not have this issue for some reason. If the Blu-ray player is connected directly to the projector with either of the cables above then I have maybe a half second delay before video starts which is more than acceptable due to the cable length.

I just wish I understood better what happens in the HDMI signal chain when a movie starts. Is it a handshake issue? Is it an HDCP issue? Is it a resolution conversion problem? Is it a YUV 4:4:4/4:2:2/4:2:0 compatibility problem between the three devices? I'm completely clueless.
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post #27 of 44 Old 02-14-2020, 02:13 PM
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I could be wrong, but it sounds like a video "buffering" delay which may caused be the Denon for some reason.


Quote:
Originally Posted by spshultz View Post
The problem only occurs when viewing movies or TV shows on one of the streaming services.

Other than YouTube, do you subscribe to or use other streaming services or only one?



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post #28 of 44 Old 02-14-2020, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
I could be wrong, but it sounds like a video "buffering" delay which may caused be the Denon for some reason.


Other than YouTube, do you subscribe to or use other streaming services or only one?

Thanks Ratman. I guess I should have been a little clearer there. I subscribe to Amazon Prime, Netflix and Disney+. For Amazon and Netflix I use the Sony Blu-ray player. For Disney+ I use the Chromecast Ultra. On all of them, I get the 10-15 second video start delay. But watching anything on the normal, free to everyone YouTube works perfectly even at 4K 60hz.


Edit: I forgot to mention that using disks in the player also have the issue.

Last edited by spshultz; 02-14-2020 at 02:50 PM.
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post #29 of 44 Old 02-14-2020, 02:35 PM
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You might try (perhaps as a last resort) using a 4K switch that has ARC capability, so you can feed HDMI audio to the amp and video directly to the projector. Here's what I use:


https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07ZNKF7C8/
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post #30 of 44 Old 02-14-2020, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
You might try (perhaps as a last resort) using a 4K switch that has ARC capability, so you can feed HDMI audio to the amp and video directly to the projector. Here's what I use:

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07ZNKF7C8/

Interesting. I will definitely keep that in mind. Thanks!
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