HDMI over fiber ARC question - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 7 Old 04-22-2020, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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HDMI over fiber ARC question

Hi,

I have my LG C8 television connected to my Denon X3300w amp using a Celerity DFO HDMI over fiber cable.

Reason for this is that my television is mounted on a wall with nothing beneath it.

The cable length I need is about 8 meters however the tubes in the wall are too small to fit a regular HDMI plug, hence the DFO cable which has detachable plugs.

Now it has been working great for years with the cable supporting the full 18gbps and no CEC issues at all.

The only issue I bumped is to when I try to play Netflix or Disney+ content on my TV with the audio over ARC the cable loses sync.

When playing my own movies on the Plex app with Dolby Digital 5.1 (AC3) it works great though.

The problem with Netflix/Disney+ is that they seem to use Dolby Digital Plus (e-AC3) which requires more bandwidth, especially with the Atmos metadata.

Now I've emailed Celerity and they can confirm the ARC bandwidth on their DFO cables are limited to approximately 6Mbit.. not enough for DD+.

So for DD+ content I have to switch my ARC output to PCM in the settings menu of my TV, getting only stereo lol.

They do have a new product called UFO but they have bigger heads which I don't think can be feed through my tubes.

So I was wondering whether there is another HDMI over fiber solution which:
- has detachable heads so I can feed it though my tubes
- support the full 18gbps for the HDMI 2.0 standard
- offers the bandwidth for DD+ over ARC which I believe is like 30Mbit
- has no CEC issues like dropouts or only supporting certain fixed addresses

For the record I'm not talking about e-ARC or lossless audio.
Just DD+ with optional Atmos over regular ARC.

Thanks
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post #2 of 7 Old 04-22-2020, 11:33 AM
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"offers the bandwidth for DD+ over ARC which I believe is like 30Mbit" - I'm a little confused about this. DD+ (e-AC3) over ARC is possible with the current HDMI 2.0 (18Gbps) chipsets so I'm confused by the "30Mbit" statement.


It's unfortunate that your conduit is not bigger (1.5" - 2.0") because that would make installing a new cable better. Celerity cables were a good idea but they have had some issues with their detachable connector ends. CEC is not a function of a cable but a feature. The functionality of CEC is determined by the HDMI chipsets and can be hit and miss due to the non-standardized nature of CEC. CEC can work one day and be problematic the next. Unfortunately, some older systems still have ARC and CEC on the same chipset so if issues occur with CEC, they can affect ARC.


You might want to consider fishing solid copper core CAT-6 cable (non-CCS/CCA and not pre-terminated CAT-6 ethernet cable) and terminating with something like HDBT or another active extender and see if that works. You could always lay out the CAT-6 cabling with your termination of choice on the floor first to see if it would work before "fishing". If you can't fish CAT-6 then you're stuck with the proprietary Celerity cable in the wall and will be dependent upon them to solve the issue.


I have a 65C8 but use the receiver as the hub and stream from an external device so I'm not dependent on the onboard apps. If I do choose to use the onboard apps, I have an optical cable from the C8 to the receiver. I know I'm limited to 5.1 but it still sounds great and I'm not subject to any ARC/CEC issues.

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post #3 of 7 Old 04-23-2020, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you Otto Pylot,


What I meant to say is that the Celerity fiber optic HDMI cable does support the full 18gbps from the transmitter (my Denon AVR) to the receiver (my TV).
It's an active solution.


But for the audio return channel the bandwith is limited to only 6Mbit which is sufficient for AC3 (Dolby Digital 5.1) but not for e-AC3 (Dolby Digital Plus) with Atmos.


This was confirmed by Celerity Technologies when I emailed them.




So the solution is working great, I have no CEC issues, and all of my devices which are connected to my Denon AVR can output the full 4K 60fps HDR 10 up to 4:2:2 to my television over the Celerity cable.




But now I'm missing out on the Netflix and Disney+ which are built into my television as they use Dolby Digital+ for all of their VOD content.
In order to pass this over ARC using my current Celerity cable I have to switch my ARC output to PCM (as the 6Mbit is not sufficient).



So I was browsing the web and I see there are multiple other brands of HDMI over fiber cables with detachable heads.
I'm not sure whether I'm allowed to share links, but Amazon for example sells:
- Atzebe Fiber Optical HDMI with micro-hdmi
- jeirdus AOC HDMI optical cable with micro-hdmi

- YIWENTEC HDMI Fiber with micro-hdmi



And they're not that expensive either.
So I was wondering whether someone has experience with them (and specifically if they can do DD+/Atmos over ARC).


My AVR and TV are only like 8meters away from each other, but the HDMI cable has to go under the floor and then through a small pipe (plastic tube) which goes into the wall to the back of the TV.


So cat6 is also an option but a couple of years ago I read that most HDBT solutions wouldn't support the full 18gbps required for the HDMI 2.0 standard without some form of compression.

Last edited by Ginosius; 04-23-2020 at 12:00 PM.
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post #4 of 7 Old 04-23-2020, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginosius View Post
Thank you Otto Pylot,


What I meant to say is that the Celerity fiber optic HDMI cable does support the full 18gbps from the transmitter (my Denon AVR) to the receiver (my TV).
It's an active solution.


But for the audio return channel the bandwith is limited to only 6Mbit which is sufficient for AC3 (Dolby Digital 5.1) but not for e-AC3 (Dolby Digital Plus) with Atmos.


This was confirmed by Celerity Technologies when I emailed them.




So the solution is working great, I have no CEC issues, and all of my devices which are connected to my Denon AVR can output the full 4K 60fps HDR 10 up to 4:2:2 to my television over the Celerity cable.




But now I'm missing out on the Netflix and Disney+ which are built into my television as they use Dolby Digital+ for all of their VOD content.
In order to pass this over ARC using my current Celerity cable I have to switch my ARC output to PCM (as the 6Mbit is not sufficient).



So I was browsing the web and I see there are multiple other brands of HDMI over fiber cables with detachable heads.
I'm not sure whether I'm allowed to share links, but Amazon for example sells:
- Atzebe Fiber Optical HDMI with micro-hdmi
- jeirdus AOC HDMI optical cable with micro-hdmi

- YIWENTEC HDMI Fiber with micro-hdmi



And they're not that expensive either.
So I was wondering whether someone has experience with them (and specifically if they can do DD+/Atmos over ARC).


My AVR and TV are only like 8meters away from each other, but the HDMI cable has to go under the floor and then through a small pipe (plastic tube) which goes into the wall to the back of the TV.


So cat6 is also an option but a couple of years ago I read that most HDBT solutions wouldn't support the full 18gbps required for the HDMI 2.0 standard without some form of compression.

Valens has been promising for over a year now that their V3000 chipset ( I think that's the version) will support uncompressed video but they still haven't delivered.


There are lots of folks who can receive discrete 5.1 audio via ARC (not stereo). Some ARC devices can even pass lossy Atmos so maybe I still don't understand you correctly. It's probably just not possible with the Celerity detachable connectors. DD+/Atmos over ARC is not a gimme so you might want to check with your device mfrs if it's possible.



The three cables you listed, especially the Atzebe, are nothing more than poor clones of the Ruipro cable/design, which has a very slim connector (not detachable). I'm very leery of detachable heads because they just don't seem to be reliable for a lot of folks (Celerity has had lots of issues with theirs). All you can do is pick one and see if it works for you. If it does, and it lasts, then problem solved.

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post #5 of 7 Old 04-24-2020, 02:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Well I've asked questions to all 3 sellers on Amazon whether they can tell anything about the ARC feature.
But I doubt they'll come up with an answer, since I think they're more or less the same with just another brand-tag.


I agree with with the detachable connectors being prone to breaking, it happened once to me when I bought a new amp the connectors stopped working.
But Celerity was kind to send me a new pair of connectors free of charge and they have been working up until this day.


Also they've confirmed that their new UFO series do meet the bandwidth requires for allowing DD+/Atmos over ARC.


The dimensions of the UFO fiber connector are: 8.2x12.9x45.0mm.
I'm going under the floor and measure the actual diameter of the conductor pipes and see if I can fit that.


Otherwise it's going to be hit or miss with the Amazon cables.. but at least they're cheap.
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post #6 of 7 Old 04-24-2020, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginosius View Post
Well I've asked questions to all 3 sellers on Amazon whether they can tell anything about the ARC feature.
But I doubt they'll come up with an answer, since I think they're more or less the same with just another brand-tag.


I agree with with the detachable connectors being prone to breaking, it happened once to me when I bought a new amp the connectors stopped working.
But Celerity was kind to send me a new pair of connectors free of charge and they have been working up until this day.


Also they've confirmed that their new UFO series do meet the bandwidth requires for allowing DD+/Atmos over ARC.


The dimensions of the UFO fiber connector are: 8.2x12.9x45.0mm.
I'm going under the floor and measure the actual diameter of the conductor pipes and see if I can fit that.


Otherwise it's going to be hit or miss with the Amazon cables.. but at least they're cheap.

Yeah, all you can do is try. "Conductor pipes"? What are those? Are you going to use them for a conduit? If you are under the floor, couldn't you install a conduit? You don't need to use a conduit all the way. You could just use it for the difficult part. When I installed conduit in my other house, it was just down the inside walls. Once in the attic space, I just carefully laid it out on the across the insulation on the attic floor. I'm trying to understand your cable run. Even if you can install the UFO connectors, it's the cable in-between that may be problematic.



Is the installed cable a fiber only cable or a hybrid fiber? A hybrid fiber cable consists of glass fiber cores surrounded by solid copper wiring. The fiber core is for high bandwidth data and the copper wiring is for low bandwidth data like HDCP, EDID, and ARC. They are also active.

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post #7 of 7 Old 04-27-2020, 05:00 AM
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If your TV supports DD+ via its Optical Out and assuming you could put a CAT5 or CAT6 cable down the existing pipe you could use a Digital Audio Extender over CAT which supports DD+.

Another option is the HDFury Maestro which does use current spec HDBT and supports eARC/ARC - no complaints so far regarding the video signal quality from any of the customers we have supplied the Maestro too.

Joe

Octava Inc. Multi-cast HD over LAN solutions.

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The Media Factory. Residential and Commercial systems.
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