Does Vinyl really sound better? - Page 20 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #571 of 836 Old 02-27-2015, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by janko8 View Post
Problem is your opinion is based on your opinion. You have not heard it....
I would say he probably has heard it. I know I've heard it.

People have compared original issue CDs to modern CDs of the same album, and the newer versions are very heavily compressed. You can hear that difference.

I have an original issue vinyl of "Super Session" that definitely sounds better than the recently purchased CD.

One of Michael Jackson's albums was bumped by +3db with each new release. The current version is now TWICE as loud as the original issue. You can hear that.

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post #572 of 836 Old 02-27-2015, 01:43 PM
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Saying that a good sounding master sounds better than a bad sounding master isn't exactly a revelation. But it has nothing to do with the medium. Put the same master on CD and vinyl and the CD will outperform the vinyl in every respect. To want to collect different masters is fine by me. But one shouldn't confuse it with the medium on which it is released.
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post #573 of 836 Old 02-27-2015, 02:12 PM
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My 8-Track of "Sweet Baby James" sounded better than the cassette.
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post #574 of 836 Old 02-27-2015, 04:08 PM
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There's hundred of song I love that are poorly mastered. There's nothing I can do, I still love the song.

What you want me to do? Delete them? I can't do that! Those songs mean a lot to me. Many of those song were song me and my dad used to listen together, other were song that were part of very joyful times in my life, song I had fun to, song I partied(?) to, song that enlightened my journeys in the past.

Many are compressed to hell but I love the melody, lyrics, rhythm, tune of them.

What category is that? I love the sound of a HiFi stereo but I don't mind listen to bad masters specially when many time I can't even tell if is that bad of a master.
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post #575 of 836 Old 02-27-2015, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
My 8-Track of "Sweet Baby James" sounded better than the cassette.
It was just those damn "clunks" when they changed tracks that was so annoying!

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post #576 of 836 Old 02-27-2015, 06:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DocCasualty View Post
It was just those damn "clunks" when they changed tracks that was so annoying!
The memories flood back...how about the little previews of the next track you'd often get?
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post #577 of 836 Old 02-27-2015, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
The memories flood back...how about the little previews of the next track you'd often get?
LOL! Yeah, I forgot about that "added attraction". The only reason I ever got into 8-Track was a car I bought from my sister had a player, so I started buying carts. Quickly realized what a dead-end that was.

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post #578 of 836 Old 02-27-2015, 06:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DocCasualty View Post
LOL! Yeah, I forgot about that "added attraction". The only reason I ever got into 8-Track was a car I bought from my sister had a player, so I started buying carts. Quickly realized what a dead-end that was.
I actually had a home player, my dad had got me one for my 13th birthday I think it was....a little combo set with a record player....my first "hi-fi"! He gave me a handful of tapes and a membership in one of those tape clubs (RCA or Columbia House or something like that). Then a few years later, of mostly preferring even the relatively crappy record player, I got a free deck for my car (long story) and put the ones I had to use. Lasted about a month before someone stole the deck and all my tapes outta the car...which was probably just as well.
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post #579 of 836 Old 02-27-2015, 06:43 PM
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8-track tapes are selling pretty well on eBay...

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post #580 of 836 Old 02-27-2015, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by RayDunzl View Post
8-track tapes are selling pretty well on eBay...
Thanks for that, Ray. I think I have a few classic titles in a box downstairs. Just might have to track them down and offer them to somebody who might appreciate them.

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post #581 of 836 Old 03-01-2015, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post
You are just comparing a good master to a bad master. It has nothing at all to do with the medium and everything to do with the mastering studio. The masters could have been reversed.
I explained this a few days ago and the guy had no idea this was a consideration, or that where the tracks were placed on vinyl took so much consideration. This was especially bad in the early days of CD, when they only took the album master tapes and made digital copies.
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post #582 of 836 Old 03-01-2015, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by DocCasualty View Post
It was just those damn "clunks" when they changed tracks that was so annoying!
Ever try to rewind one?
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post #583 of 836 Old 03-01-2015, 12:18 PM
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This "CD vs vinyl" question is blowing my mind of late.

There was a time when I thought 8-track tapes were all the rage, but ever since true hi-fidelity equipment became cheap enough for the average listener to own, I quickly settled on albums as my medium of choice. Moving into the 1990s, records began to get scarce, so I purchased a CD player and have never looked back. I don't buy CDs as much as I used to since I can cherry-pick MP3 songs from Amazon for .99 cents now.

For what it's worth, I have a 30 year old Techniques SL-5 liner-track turntable, with an Audio Technica moving magnet cartridge (the cartridge listed for about $200.00 at the time of purchase). However, this combination just doesn't begin to compare to the sound coming from my CD player. To be fair though, my albums did sound better when I had an equalizer, but I don't think they sounded as good as my CD collection.

Am I missing something, or is my turntable and cartridge a weak point here? I intended to buy another equalizer, but a reputable salesman convinced me to buy a BBE ARS. This component (made in California) was a great addition to my system, but after purchasing a 7.1 Denon receiver, there was no dedicated tape monitor switch, so I had to connect the ARS in-line with the CD player.

Last edited by 4:3 Toshiba; 03-01-2015 at 12:27 PM.
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post #584 of 836 Old 03-01-2015, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highfigh View Post
Ever try to rewind one?
Yes, lol!

I don't miss it.
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post #585 of 836 Old 03-01-2015, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4:3 Toshiba View Post
This "CD vs vinyl" question is blowing my mind of late.

There was a time when I thought 8-track tapes were all the rage, but ever since true hi-fidelity equipment became cheap enough for the average listener to own, I quickly settled on albums as my medium of choice. Moving into the 1990s, records began to get scarce, so I purchased a CD player and have never looked back. I don't buy CDs as much as I used to since I can cherry-pick MP3 songs from Amazon for .99 cents now.

For what it's worth, I have a 30 year old Techniques SL-5 liner-track turntable, with an Audio Technica moving magnet cartridge (the cartridge listed for about $200.00 at the time of purchase). However, this combination just doesn't begin to compare to the sound coming from my CD player. To be fair though, my albums did sound better when I had an equalizer, but I don't think they sounded as good as my CD collection.

Am I missing something, or is my turntable and cartridge a weak point here? I intended to buy another equalizer, but a reputable salesman convinced me to buy a BBE ARS. This component (made in California) was a great addition to my system, but after purchasing a 7.1 Denon receiver, there was no dedicated tape monitor switch, so I had to connect the ARS in-line with the CD player.
Which Denon is it? Look for a group of jacks called 'Adapter'.

The fact that the turntable is linear tracking tells me that it takes a P-mount cartridge and that limits what you can use- they make more cartridges for the standard bayonet mount, which is the usual type seen. Some companies made a mini-bayonet, but they're somewhat rare and they use the standard two-screw cartridge.

So, to answer the question, I would say the turntable and cartridge are a bit of a weak point. I would say that a Rega Planar or Pro-Ject Debut with either the cartridge that's usually packaged with them or the next step up would be a big improvement. I listened to vinyl last night from about 7PM-10:30 and today from 10AM-2:30. I never loaned my albums out, so I always knew they'd be in a condition that's acceptable to me. I have known people who treated their albums like farm animals and immediately decided that they'd never handle mine. I had forgotten how good albums can sound- the separation was far better than I remember, but it's not a case of listening to them with two systems in a short time.

FWIW, I use a Sony PS-X600 with a Denon DL-110 and if I can find another headshell, I'll be able to use my Denon 103d, which is considered a 'classic'. The fact that the DL-110 is high output and the 103d is low output is the main reason I wanted the P5.

I don't know how good it is, but Emotiva has a phono preamp that's very reasonable. Parasound has their ZPhono and I have read great reviews of that one, which lists at $200.

You got into CDs at a better time than the first-adopters, who had to put up with digital copies of master tapes that were mixed to make albums, not CDs. Once they started to re-mix them, the sound quality jumped up many levels. I think you will be surprised by the sound of a good turntable and cartridge combination. Many dealers became lazy in the '90s- CDs were winning and they wanted to spend as little time as possible selling turntables, so linear-tracking turntables with a P-mount was the easy way to go. When I got into the business, we would actually demo turntables and cartridges, so people could choose the one they liked. Hell, we even used albums as the source when we would demo cassette decks- we'd record some music and then rewind it & synch it, to switch between the album and the tape.
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post #586 of 836 Old 03-04-2015, 03:44 PM
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I prefer to sound of breaking glass to the dull thud of plastic... but those raincoats tho. Wait, you mean-NOPE doesn't matter. Still plastic!
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post #587 of 836 Old 03-05-2015, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highfigh View Post
You got into CDs at a better time than the first-adopters, who had to put up with digital copies of master tapes that were mixed to make albums, not CDs. Once they started to re-mix them, the sound quality jumped up many levels. I think you will be surprised by the sound of a good turntable and cartridge combination. Many dealers became lazy in the '90s- CDs were winning and they wanted to spend as little time as possible selling turntables, so linear-tracking turntables with a P-mount was the easy way to go. When I got into the business, we would actually demo turntables and cartridges, so people could choose the one they liked. Hell, we even used albums as the source when we would demo cassette decks- we'd record some music and then rewind it & synch it, to switch between the album and the tape.
Albums are very, very rarely remixed. The are remastered. That is, they take the 2 channel mixdown and master it for consumer playback. The problem with the argument that early CDs sounded bad is because of the mastering though is that quite often, those first CDs are the best sounding (and most valuable) versions because remastering in the 90's took a serious dump for non-technical reasons. Multitrack audio quality at the studio level has been very high since the 70's (and 2 track since the 50's). The assumption that a modern remaster should sound better because modern mastering tools sound better is false. There really is no reason to remaster except for aesthetic reasons IMO. I almost always prefer original masters with the exception of maybe albums remastered by the likes of Steve Hoffman and Kevin Grey and they generally hold true to the original release.

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post #588 of 836 Old 03-05-2015, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Mad Chemist View Post
Albums are very, very rarely remixed. The are remastered. That is, they take the 2 channel mixdown and master it for consumer playback. The problem with the argument that early CDs sounded bad is because of the mastering though is that quite often, those first CDs are the best sounding (and most valuable) versions because remastering in the 90's took a serious dump for non-technical reasons. Multitrack audio quality at the studio level has been very high since the 70's (and 2 track since the 50's). The assumption that a modern remaster should sound better because modern mastering tools sound better is false. There really is no reason to remaster except for aesthetic reasons IMO. I almost always prefer original masters with the exception of maybe albums remastered by the likes of Steve Hoffman and Kevin Grey and they generally hold true to the original release.
I just started listening to vinyl again and the sound of some albums is excellent, but some are weak. OTOH, much of the equipment of that time had a totally different sound and ability. Most vinyl will never be re-mixed because the money just isn't going to be there for project like that but once in a while, someone decides to remix and I think it's a good thing.
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post #589 of 836 Old 03-05-2015, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
Though this certainly hasn't been proven; it falls far more into the catagory of a random observations.

I saw a video by a recording engineer who also works with cutting vinyl masters and he noted that there seemed to be enhanced dynamic range on the vinyl relative to the the recording that the vinyl was made from. He speculated, though is far from proving, that perhaps due to some inertial force, the cutting needle was over-cutting and seeming to enhance the dynamic range.

Whether this will bear out under deeper investigation or not remains to be seen. But it is an interesting concept.

Just a random thought.

Steve/bluewizard
Though I've been out of the business for many years, I can state with some authority that the quality of a recording is up to the record company, the producer and the engineer, in that order. When I was learning the business, the LP format was considered Hi Fi and there was often (but not always) some care taken in the mastering process although that care wasn't always reflected in the production process.

We didn't have digital processing equipment so unless the engineer was a total wonk, recording levels were held in check and 33RPM master pressings were limited by not allowing adjacent grooves to touch each other. 45RPM singles were different. There was a conscious effort to push the volume as high as it could go without totally ruining the music (but often they did anyway). Master tape volumes were cranked up to the cutting lathe and the grooves were allowed to overlap.

The stated reason for the difference was that 33RPM records were played on better quality equipment by discerning listeners so efforts were made to keep them happy. 45's, on the other hand, were typically played on cheap players that were far from high fidelity in the first place and not capable of playing very loud so maxing out the levels was desirable.

Unfortunately, that attitude has spilled over to today's music. Music companies and producers want to stand out on radio and internet airplay and they think the best way to do that is to crank the levels up. One method is digital compression, which doesn't make the peak levels any higher but minimizes the difference between the softest and the loudest levels of a piece.

Unfortunately, that crap is often applied to remasters of older music and to many digitized versions of analog LPs. I've compared the oscilloscope waveforms of older LPs to the CD release and often (but not always) seen a huge difference in the dynamic range. That indicates a heavy hand in the remastering process. The end result is that I agree - there are many LPs that sound better than the CD. That doesn't mean CDs (and digital media) aren't capable of sounding good, it just means that for whatever reason they weren't allowed to sound good.

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post #591 of 836 Old 03-05-2015, 03:24 PM
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My brother worked at a record store for several years and also at a classical radio station, so he amassed a huge collection, including some boxed sets that were somewhat collectible. When he moved to Connecticut, he sold most of it and replaced them with CDs, although he kept a fair amount. He said that at one point, he had over 5000 albums.

Not really what could be called an 'audiophile'- just a music lover, but he does know good sound when he hears it.
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LOL! Favorite line was where he says its a misconception that people listen to vinyl because it sounds better, the reason to listen to vinyl is that it makes you better than people who don't.
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post #593 of 836 Old 03-05-2015, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by highfigh View Post
Which Denon is it? Look for a group of jacks called 'Adapter'.

It is a 10 year old AVR-983.

So far, I haven't found a set of jacks by that name.

Are tape monitors still missing from modern receivers? My old Onkyo had one, and I miss it.

For what it's worth, here is a picture of a BBE ARS similar to mine...




Not sure if you have ever seen one. I think they were discontinued sometime back.

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post #594 of 836 Old 03-06-2015, 06:28 AM
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It is a 10 year old AVR-983.

So far, I haven't found a set of jacks by that name.

Are tape monitors still missing from modern receivers? My old Onkyo had one, and I miss it.

For what it's worth, here is a picture of a BBE ARS similar to mine...

Not sure if you have ever seen one. I think they were discontinued sometime back.
I have installed that model- Your receiver has a tape in/out, immediately to the right of the digital inputs and in the center, as you look from the rear. You would need to press the Zone 2/REC button and select the source (these buttons are just below the Function knob) and select Tape as the Function, in order to use the BBE which, BTW, was from 1992. There's a very good chance that you'll hear noise when that's in the circuit- most receivers in '92 weren't as quiet as the newer ones.
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
LOL! Favorite line was where he says its a misconception that people listen to vinyl because it sounds better, the reason to listen to vinyl is that it makes you better than people who don't.
Timony. Alright, then.
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post #596 of 836 Old 03-06-2015, 10:16 AM
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For music recorded from start to finished in a digital form the master made for vinyl was the same used for the CD. I can see the argument for old music but for music made in 2015 it doesn't apply the same way.
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post #597 of 836 Old 03-06-2015, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highfigh View Post
I have installed that model- Your receiver has a tape in/out, immediately to the right of the digital inputs and in the center, as you look from the rear. You would need to press the Zone 2/REC button and select the source (these buttons are just below the Function knob) and select Tape as the Function, in order to use the BBE which, BTW, was from 1992. There's a very good chance that you'll hear noise when that's in the circuit- most receivers in '92 weren't as quiet as the newer ones.
Before I proceed, are you saying I can filter all input signals through the BBE before the signal gets amplified? I assume we're talking about connecting the BBE to a set of tape in / out jacks?

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post #598 of 836 Old 03-06-2015, 11:05 AM
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You probably can use it for everything, but when you use it should depend on what the music needs.
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post #599 of 836 Old 03-06-2015, 02:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerardo2068 View Post
For music recorded from start to finished in a digital form the master made for vinyl was the same used for the CD. .
Why would that be true? I would think mastering for vinyl could/would still be different than for another medium depending who is working on it....
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post #600 of 836 Old 03-06-2015, 02:23 PM
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Does Vinyl really sound better?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
Why would that be true? I would think mastering for vinyl could/would still be different than for another medium depending who is working on it....

Because most labels don't paid extra. Vinyl doesn't automatically makes it sound better just because.
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