Does Vinyl really sound better? - Page 24 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #691 of 836 Old 06-29-2015, 10:28 AM
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Well, it's at least been tried, not sure if it worked...but they weren't very popular, so probably not.
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post #692 of 836 Old 06-29-2015, 10:58 AM
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His was an RCA. It looked like this:



But then again, I would have preferred this:


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post #693 of 836 Old 06-29-2015, 06:21 PM
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Here is a very interesting post over at Vinyl Asylum: http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vin...1/1113371.html

Quote:
its usually pretty easy to turn out a project that can sound better than the same thing on CD. The LP mastering system has wider bandwidth and amazing dynamic range- much more than most people realize. The limitation of the LP is in playback, not record.
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post #694 of 836 Old 06-29-2015, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chili555 View Post
Here is a very interesting post over at Vinyl Asylum: http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vin...1/1113371.html
The out of context quote is a bit misleading. Did you read the circumstances under which the LP would sound better than the CD?

Then there's this rather telling excerpt, same post, same guy, "Now if the producer of the LP is an idiot, he will have given us the same master file as used for the CD. At that point the LP will sound nearly identical."

BTW, this would be true if the master used for the CD was "the master file that has not been adulterated with some of the DSP that infects CDs." You'd still end up with the LP and CD sounding the same, except for the distortion and noise of the LP.

However, even though the guy claims to run an LP mastering operation, he says (as part of the same quote above), "The limitation of the LP is in playback, not record". There actually are some rather stringent limits involve in cutting, many of the physical and geometric, and they absolutely do impact what can be cut. IF you can't cut it, you certainly can't play it either.

I'd have to discount that "article" as written by someone who may run a mastering facility but doesn't fully understand the technology.

Both LP and CD are "garbage in, garbage out" media, fundamentally. Feed either one good masters, they sound good. That's not what makes one or the other better.
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post #695 of 836 Old 06-29-2015, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by CSG123
Look it up, buddy.
 
I guess I could
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Originally Posted by cctvtech View Post
That's cool.
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post #697 of 836 Old 06-30-2015, 01:39 AM
 
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*IMO (and some facts ) regarding the Merits of Vinyl in the digital Age* :


Setting aside individual preferences either way a good recording/mix and a decent playback chain is fundamental without that you get nothing from nothing.
OTOH it doesent have to cost a small fortune with Digital now whereas a decent starter vinyl turntable/cart by itself is ~ $500.00.


Opinion and some facts :

Vinyl ( outside of an all to frequent poor and often compressed CD mix ) is not as accurate as 16/44 RBCD <<<< if it's not manipulated/noise shaped /compressed to much .

Vinyl since the 1950's has subtractive RIAA equalization applied to the cutting lathe signal to alow for groove spacing and playback stylus traclking i.e. limiting that is restored in amplified playback device tone circuits in varying degrees of competence depending on the quality of the playback RIAA EQ circuits or sometimes simpy *only and poorly done in an inexpensive ceramic phono cartrige . IOW vinyl is not a perfectly *accurate * format .


*Analog Tape has comperession inherently and electrical bias analog noise shaping added IOW nothing is perfect. OTOH Digital *can be* the most accurate representation today.


OTOH vinyl can certainly sound good and if you like the ritual and otherwise prefer vinyl knowing the above *or not* obviously there nothing wrong with that and you don't need me or anyone to tell you that all as long as one doesn't deliberately or otherwise mis interpret or distort the facts or you may not be taken serious by those that know the facts .


That being said I enjoy both vinyl and well mixed CD on spinning metal along with digital needle drops that can be every bit as resolving as vinyl and more when you consider the best vinyl is 8 bits of resolution and CD are 16 bit and Cassette .. maybe 6 bits and studio rTr tape maybe 11 bits on a good Studer or Sony.

The fly in soup is *a lot of CD * in general aren't mastered well due to marketing or(other ) reasons which can open the real possibility
of vinyl sounding better on a given recording it's case by case unfortunately so vinyl obviously still has merit .


Other than that some good recordings can be had in hires that otherwise are not available in CD or 16/44 files . << IMO that's main legitimacy of hires beyond 16/44.


Audiophile CD players outside of an OPPO DVD BD player at the top may not be such a good choice with alternatives avaiable today .
ODD/transports /players in shiny billet cases cant do anything much outside of what an inexpensive $15.00 ODD can in a PC and a very modest DAC or sound device DSP/DAC can do to make those digital > analog signals from CD's to get amplified sound good .

CD's don't play they get the bit word data read decent ODD readers are inexpensive commodities .

[Some] outside of legitimate audiophiles "think* they are [playing ] CD like a phonograhph record and don't know the ODD merely sorts ,[reads] and error checks ones and zeros for transfer into volatile memory or hdd storage in the digital domain (IOW U don't play an ODD you read it ) before anything else happens and some talk foolishly about non existent audible jitters below the lower nyquist rate (they don't even know what it all means half the time ) just like they don't know much about cables.


Many people have absolutely no understanding of digital discrete time signal sampling and signal reconstruction within a limited bandwidth and the Shannon Nyquist theroms as it applies here and particulary the lower Nyquist rate at 16/44 and what it all means vs continuous time analog signals as they apply digital vs vinyl and tape and are just mis informed.



OTOH Tidal hif fi and presumably Deezer 16/44 digital streaming from 24/41>16/44 direct studio master 1:1 Digital studio master transfers often presents better options than all 3 of the above no matter how expensive the playback source ,<< *That is what audiophools can't grasp *inducing editors at prominent audiophile publications that either won't admit it or simply do not understand it .and amybe others that never heard a good recording like that. OTOH 16/44 PCM has been around well over 30 yrs, 25+ for me so it's *potentaial *no suprise to me.

IOW the digital age for hifi has arrived at 16/44 (1441kbps) lossless Tidal streaming and elseware and democratized playback sources you don't *really* need a 5K 10K CD player to get some of the best sound availiable . Seems like some have no idea it's all very technical details often well beyond your average audiophile but the fundamentals are not beyond self study by any means .


Anyone reading this should should Try ^^ these alternatives if they are at all serious about the hobby with the caveat a bad recording sounds bad EVERYWHERE and EVERY WAY those can't be fixed .

A litle more tech info :

FWIW Phonograph aka vinyl record is ~ 8 Bits resolution and 16/44 regular CD .......16 bits resolution [some] have not figured that out that since 1980 and still perpetuate the audiophile myth that vinyl (outside of an all to frequent poorly mixd CD ) sounds better although some may prefer Vinyl and it can sound excelent nothing wrong there .


Audio bit depth represents digital bit word lengths that in turn represent amplitude loudness points on a digital waveform represntation AKA the noise floor and maximum loudness within a given bit depth or taken all together dynamic range .

Sample rate represents the sampling *frequency or rate maximum * usually devided by 2 by digital low pass filters to filter out normally occouring artifacts *below the (lower Nyquist rate) which on a CD or 16/44 file is 22,500 hz IOW more than we can hear .

OTOH there are good and not so good filters implemented in DAC's and poorly masterd recordings but modern electronics being what they are it's not as common anymore to find a poor DAC installed in affordable playback amplified devices as it has been .

Opinion :

An uniformed consumer is fresh meat for the unscrupuilous marketers /manufactures and a lot of magazine reviewer /bloggers.

Final argument : Digital *can be more accurate than vinlyl or tape* within 20-20,000 Hz at 16/44 and above aside from the all the too frequent compressed /poor CD mixes .

IOW setting aside 16/44 lossless *potential* poor CD mixes are a legitimate reason for anyone to prefer decent vinyl on a given recording not available outside of a poor CD mix it's a case by case basis in the marketplace

OTOH Tidal and Deezer HI FI 16/44 lossless streaming outside of a few needle drops usually pre dating tape and the odd CD mix bypasses both CD and vinyl provnance and compramise altogether as do some premium label downloads at 16/44 +.

FWIW Tidal and presumably Deezer source their material from truck loads of 1:1 24/41 digital studio master hdd sample copys from the labels and simply truncate it to 16/44 without audiable degradartion for streaming lossles 1441 kbps music .


closing:
I hope you all enjoyed your brief timeout from mid century analog jail and dragging diamond stones through miles of vinyl grooves even though some of that can sound excellent ☻☻


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post #698 of 836 Old 06-30-2015, 02:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaddie View Post
The out of context quote is a bit misleading. Did you read the circumstances under which the LP would sound better than the CD?

Then there's this rather telling excerpt, same post, same guy, "Now if the producer of the LP is an idiot, he will have given us the same master file as used for the CD. At that point the LP will sound nearly identical."

BTW, this would be true if the master used for the CD was "the master file that has not been adulterated with some of the DSP that infects CDs." You'd still end up with the LP and CD sounding the same, except for the distortion and noise of the LP.

However, even though the guy claims to run an LP mastering operation, he says (as part of the same quote above), "The limitation of the LP is in playback, not record". There actually are some rather stringent limits involve in cutting, many of the physical and geometric, and they absolutely do impact what can be cut. IF you can't cut it, you certainly can't play it either.

I'd have to discount that "article" as written by someone who may run a mastering facility but doesn't fully understand the technology.

Both LP and CD are "garbage in, garbage out" media, fundamentally. Feed either one good masters, they sound good. That's not what makes one or the other better.
^^^^^^Pretty much 100% on point no argument here .... It seems a lot of folks in the business are clueless about the underlying technology they work with ,digital or analog or both including many audio magazine reviewers they can all either be clueless or deliberatly creativley imaginative to put it kindly .☻☻ Two words caveat emptor come to mind .
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post #699 of 836 Old 06-30-2015, 03:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayDunzl View Post
Looks like he could use a rumble filter.
OTOH even with a high pass filter spinning vynil and stylus tracking is inherently less stable than spining hdd platters or ODD readers and volatile memory in general within RBCD bandwithdth or no ?



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post #700 of 836 Old 06-30-2015, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaddie View Post
The out of context quote is a bit misleading. Did you read the circumstances under which the LP would sound better than the CD?

Then there's this rather telling excerpt, same post, same guy, "Now if the producer of the LP is an idiot, he will have given us the same master file as used for the CD. At that point the LP will sound nearly identical."

BTW, this would be true if the master used for the CD was "the master file that has not been adulterated with some of the DSP that infects CDs." You'd still end up with the LP and CD sounding the same, except for the distortion and noise of the LP.

However, even though the guy claims to run an LP mastering operation, he says (as part of the same quote above), "The limitation of the LP is in playback, not record". There actually are some rather stringent limits involve in cutting, many of the physical and geometric, and they absolutely do impact what can be cut. IF you can't cut it, you certainly can't play it either.

I'd have to discount that "article" as written by someone who may run a mastering facility but doesn't fully understand the technology.

Both LP and CD are "garbage in, garbage out" media, fundamentally. Feed either one good masters, they sound good. That's not what makes one or the other better.
I certainly read it.

My point, which the AA post supports and with which you evidently agree, is that the question of whether vinyl really sounds better depends on many factors and probably the greatest is the source material used to produce each. Unlike the absolutists elsewhere in this thread who, with religious fervence, claim that one or the other always sounds better, I believe the answer is actually, "It depends."
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post #701 of 836 Old 06-30-2015, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chili555 View Post
I certainly read it.

My point, which the AA post supports and with which you evidently agree, is that the question of whether vinyl really sounds better depends on many factors and probably the greatest is the source material used to produce each. Unlike the absolutists elsewhere in this thread who, with religious fervence, claim that one or the other always sounds better, I believe the answer is actually, "It depends."
Here's how I look at it, having had the experience to test this. Vinyl and a CD made from exactly the same master sound the same but for vinyl having more noise and slightly higher distortion IF that master doesn't challenge the vinyl system's maximum parameters, AND the vinyl playback system is precisely calibrated to track the RIAA curve. When audio masks noise and doesn't stimulate vinyl's distortion mechanisms, the CD and vinyl are indistinguishable.

But that's a whole lot of assumptions in the production chain, and only those of us who have had the privilege of supervision of the complete process would have been able to make this test. Everyone else has no idea what was done in mastering for either medium, and mastering should be assumed to be different for each. Since vinyl has a more limited dynamic range, and the limits are frequency dependant (whereas 16/44's max is flat across the entire band), mastering for vinyl tends to be less aggressive, less processed, possibly more dynamic as a result, and that is interpreted as "warm" sounding. In those cases, vinyl might actually sound better than the CD of the same material. But not because vinyl is "better", it absolutely is not, but it's flaws often influence mastering choices. Aggressive digital music mastering is a huge issue, and while I admire this guy's attempt to make inroads, it's probably a very steep up hill battle.

I would be cautious about assigning equivalent bit-depths to various analog formats. That's usually done based on signal to noise ratios, but doesn't take into consideration frequency response, overload characteristics (including the spectral overload curve), and the spectrum of the noise floor. Noise and the related dynamic range of any analog medium doesn't tell the story anyway, there are time-base issues (wow and flutter), distortion issues like IMD and (gasp!) the analog tape equivalent of jitter, "scrape flutter" (far worse than any digital jitter, BTW). The more limited dynamic range is actually one of the more easily tolerated analog anomalies, so long as we aren't talking about cassettes without noise reduction.

The whole discussion is comparing two different signal chains, but the consumer doesn't have any ability to make the comparison, he only has the result which, I'll admit, sometimes swings to vinyl as better because of the production chain. Sad, but true, and completely avoidable.

Roll all of that into the mix with the psychological, touchy-feely, physical vinyl handling and playing experience, and you end up with vinyl lovers. It is a different experience than clicking on a file.
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post #702 of 836 Old 06-30-2015, 11:01 AM
 
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My take away and exprerience on RBCD vs vinyl suggests it all starts with the recording/ mix ofc.. OTOH RBCD *within its limited bandwidth being below the lower nyquist rate @ 22,500 hz and above 20hz on the bottom has the potential to be more accurate than vinyl or tape by a country mile with virtually non existant audiable jitter of course that isn't always the case due to poor CD mixes i.e. agressive EQ ,noise shaping,limiting ,layering , compression and DSP effects in post and or exremly poor CDP HDWE that is becoming less common even in the cheap stuff . It's a case by case thing on any given recording .

Ofc then there is the accurate vs preference argument that gets conflated very often either way with RBCD and vinyl and any given person may say one is better than the other with all things being equal .

OTOH in this case accuracy and better can mean two different things anyway .

I would agree with jaddie in general and specifically that most folks don't know the difference from loudness war CD mixing or CD uniform loudness mixing or CD post mixing in general as oppossed to vinyl mixing and vinyl RIAA curves and replication production /playback proceses either way beyond putting a CD in an ODD or a phono record on a T.T. Platter although a few do ofc.

chili555 sumed up the OP's question quite well with the ansewer being "it depends "

OTOH I'm not so sure about audio magazine writers ,reviewers, bloggers vendors and industry pundits in general if it's out of this weeks narrative or thier financial interests same with cables they usully only remember what is convienent,what they make up , (what they are told by vendors) or if they even knew anyhing to begin with which is often NOT the case with digital or electrical conductivity science in general

i.e. those are the same folks that are poo pooing good RBCD mixes in favor of hires with a higher (lower nyquist rate) than RBCD (and half of them don't know what that all *really * means anyway and they slobber all over expensive bling cables and used to slobber all over SACD and $5,000+ CD players when it fitted the narrative of the week .

Now DSD is the new trendy revenue stream just like it was with SACD DSD data. Imagine that what's old is suddenly new again .


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post #703 of 836 Old 06-30-2015, 02:22 PM
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I listen strictly to classical music, and to my ears and on my system, vinyl that derives from analog masters has a sense of body and richness that I find missing in most CDs. I do have some SACDs that are pure DSD recordings, and they sound pretty darn good, but they are few and far between since many labels use lower res PCM recorders.

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A "sense of body"?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG123 View Post
A "sense of body"?
As in a more three dimensional sense of reality--like real instruments have. Digital audio sounds thinner in that respect to me.

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post #706 of 836 Old 06-30-2015, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG123 View Post
A "sense of body"?
Yeah you know, that classical body:

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post #707 of 836 Old 06-30-2015, 05:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cctvtech View Post
Yeah you know, that classical body:
What about Kate Upton ?

I've found when I listen to an unaltered 24/41 ,24/48 studio master digital file replications on spinning metal (correctlty truncated to 16/44 or not) that never made it to a vinyl or CD mix I like it better than CD/Vinyl .

That's the pure stuff and can be *very transparent without physical jitter or inner grove distortion and surface noise inherent in vinyl or the vagarities of any given playback chains RIAA re -equalization same for the usuall compramises inherent in tape or any physical contact media or uniform loudness CD mix .

Aside from premiumm or studio or producer downlads if U know someone you can also get all ^^^ that 24/41>16/44 digital goodness on Tidal Hi Fi and presumably Deezer at lossless 16/44 (1441 kbps ) that most of the time can sound better than CD or Vinyl on a given good recording . IOW (primo) digital has arrived for the masses for $19.99 mo.

Note: a high end Burmeister or similar CD Transport/DAC assy would take you 33 years to pay at $19.99 mo. without interest and won't sound any better than a modest decent digital hdd playback chain to your amplifier but don't tell the fools that

I like all the above digital aside from uniform loudness or otherwise ruined CD better as a rule here with the exception of the neeedle drops like that that pre date tapes I like as well in any other lossless digital media for *those*

OTOH nothing wrong with good vinyl on decent hdd playback chain either

EDIT : but given the choice I would take good digital that isn't a uniform loudness or otherwised ruined CD mix OTOH sometimes you can get lucky now and then with CD mixes

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post #708 of 836 Old 06-30-2015, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by bwv1080 View Post
As in a more three dimensional sense of reality--like real instruments have. Digital audio sounds thinner in that respect to me.
OK.

However, I listen to a lot of classical music too but find the same amount of body in well recorded CD's as well-recorded LP's.
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post #709 of 836 Old 06-30-2015, 10:59 PM
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How much feedback is there in the loop when an LP is being played at, uh, realistic volumes in the same acoustic space as the speakers?
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post #710 of 836 Old 07-01-2015, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
What about Kate Upton ?
LOL. Kate Upton sounds
Spoiler!
flabby and bloated, like many old LPs.

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post #711 of 836 Old 07-02-2015, 11:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cctvtech View Post
LOL. Kate Upton sounds
Spoiler!
flabby and bloated, like many old LPs.
more like pleasingly plump in all the right places
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post #712 of 836 Old 07-03-2015, 08:09 AM
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I agree with about everything posted.Its what flavor ice cream you prefer.I listen to CD 100% of the time and have tried a couple times to get the records Ive been moving around for 40 years to sound great.Spent big bucks for me and never could get past the snap/crackle/pop.An audio friend did a shootout one night with is 75K system..3 formats,,vinyl(120 gram pressing)sacd and download through his computer..all the same recording..most of us,not all agreed the sacd won the listening followed by the record and then lastly the download...but again its simply what you prefer..all formats can sound great and can sound horrible depending on all factors
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post #713 of 836 Old 07-03-2015, 09:10 AM
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For me I have to have both digital and analog systems to fuel my audio fetish. Most of the music I have is in digital format but the best sounding media I have is still vinyl - even over SACD and DVDA. My turntable+cartridge+phonostage ($1200) runs circles around my dac+interface ($7500).
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post #714 of 836 Old 07-03-2015, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by RayDunzl View Post
How much feedback is there in the loop when an LP is being played at, uh, realistic volumes in the same acoustic space as the speakers?
Depends. If someone is using a JVC JL-B31, a lot. I had one and it was insanely sensitive- I had to leave the dust cover open to keep the feedback at a minimum. I used a few different cartridges with different compliance and it didn't help. The speakers had 8" woofers in sealed boxes, too. The system was used in several locations, too- I can't imagine the turntable ended up in a place where room modes coincided in every place.
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post #715 of 836 Old 07-03-2015, 03:10 PM
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I agree with about everything posted.Its what flavor ice cream you prefer.I listen to CD 100% of the time and have tried a couple times to get the records Ive been moving around for 40 years to sound great.Spent big bucks for me and never could get past the snap/crackle/pop.An audio friend did a shootout one night with is 75K system..3 formats,,vinyl(120 gram pressing)sacd and download through his computer..all the same recording..most of us,not all agreed the sacd won the listening followed by the record and then lastly the download...but again its simply what you prefer..all formats can sound great and can sound horrible depending on all factors
I have heard people complain about every format, over the years. Some couldn't keep an album clean if their live depended on it.

I had a guy call soon after buying a CD player, complaining that he heard a lot of noise in the background. I asked which CD he was listening to and it was 'The Who- Live At Leeds'.
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post #716 of 836 Old 07-03-2015, 08:14 PM
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Leaving it open wasn't much of a problem but nobody told the kitten about that when we had a pre-show party before going to see Genesis. I was playing a song called 'All In A Mouse's Night', where a cat is mauled by a mouse (well, it WAS ten feet tall) and the kitten wasn't having it. The song got to "It only took one blow" and she got up on her hind legs, reached out and swatted the tonearm- cued it to the beginning of the next song, too.
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post #717 of 836 Old 07-04-2015, 08:56 AM
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Those are two very funny stories Highfish!

We have high windows above where my turntable is sitting.

When my nieces were playing their vinyl on it I had to constantly tell them to put the dustcover down as the cats use the TT as a landing pad!
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post #718 of 836 Old 07-12-2015, 04:50 PM
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What about Kate Upton ?
If Kate Upton was included--I'd buy 8 Tracks and LIKE them!

As far as spinning records, for some odd reason the 78 RPM versions appeal to me. Since repeated plays on a 78 would destroy the records, probably have to record it on a computer and play that while the record spins--and the tone arm can't touch the record.

Shame the laser players never really became a viable option.
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post #719 of 836 Old 07-12-2015, 05:26 PM
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Digital audio is an objectively better medium on every front. There's nothing vinyl can do that digital can't; but the reverse is not true. Vinyl is especially severely limited in the amount of deep bass it can produce at loud volumes for extended runtimes, and anyone who listens to organ music (or music that features organs) knows this well. The problem is that the loudness wars have blunted the strengths of digital and people are going back to vinyl thinking the badness is in the format rather than the mastering. It's truly ironic that when we finally get a near-perfect hi-fidelity source (digital), producers muck it up so badly that people want to go back to an inferior source!
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post #720 of 836 Old 07-12-2015, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by SolRage View Post
Digital audio is an objectively better medium on every front. There's nothing vinyl can do that digital can't; but the reverse is not true. Vinyl is especially severely limited in the amount of deep bass it can produce at loud volumes for extended runtimes, and anyone who listens to organ music (or music that features organs) knows this well. The problem is that the loudness wars have blunted the strengths of digital and people are going back to vinyl thinking the badness is in the format rather than the mastering. It's truly ironic that when we finally get a near-perfect hi-fidelity source (digital), producers muck it up so badly that people want to go back to an inferior source!
When the compact disk was introduced in circa 1982, it was advertised as Perfect Sound Forever. http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG...er=allrovi.com It certainly is not, as you yourself acknowledge:
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the loudness wars have blunted the strengths of digital
.....
producers muck it up so badly
So then we get 96/24 downloads; then 192/24 and then DSD. Are these formats more perfect than perfect? Or are they perfecter?? What will be even more perfect next year? How many times do we have to replace our collections with the next perfecter format?

I enjoy vinyl. On a well set up system and with clean, well mastered recordings, it's quite beautiful. Some well mastered vinyl sounds better than poorly mastered CDs. Many of my SACDs sound better than my vinyl. I listen to what I enjoy and I don't obsess about the format.
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