Yamaha A-S801 Integrated Amplifier Official AVSForum Review - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 327 Old 02-15-2015, 11:28 PM
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The Pre-Amp outs would have been nice, but they have to weigh features vs price. There is a limit to the number of features they can add and still maintain a price point.

Though I do see your point. The Sub out is essentially a Pre-Out. If you have the Pre-Out you could use it for the Sub, but you can NOT use the Sub-Out in place of a Pre-Out. So, the Pre-Out would have been a more versatile option. But a bit more complex circuit which could be a bit more expensive.

Some floorstanders can go reasonably deep. My Diamond 9.6 with 2x8" bass drivers each go down to 28hz at -6db. The Polk A9 go down to about 25hz at -6db.

But many speakers, like Focal or the new B&W CM series are willing to sacrifice a bit of deep bass in exchange for absolute clarity. I'm OK with that. Something for everyone. To have both absolute clarity and deep bass is going to cost a very considerable amount of money.

Next, on the issue of bass depth, while technically there is music with very deep bass, it is also very rare. People can ramble on about 16hz Pipe Organs, but when was the last time you listen to a recording of a Pipe Organ, and if you did, when was the last time they tapped the 16hz bass pedal? Extremely rare I assure you.

For a vast majority of people, you do not need bass below about 30hz. Even many speaker with bass down to 40hz still sound very good with virtually all the music most people are likely to encounter. This is reasonably easy to find reasonably price somewhat large floorstanding speakers that reach down near 30hz.

What most gain from a Sub is not bass depth but bass impact. A big bass speaker pushes a huge amount of air, and that creates impact. But for common music, there is virtually nothing below 30hz. Though Movie Sound Tracks are very different, they can have deeper bass. But music, not so much.

I'm personally not very big on Subwoofers, big shock I'm sure, I have great bass impact for movies without a sub, and don't need it for music. But, I have nothing against those that do want to use a Sub. It is a complex world with an unlimited number of possibilities. As long as the user is satisfied, then I'm satisfied.

As to Yamaha, they had to make some decision. I think they saw the Subwoofer out as a selling point, and it is found on most of their Stereo Amps. Just being able to say you have a Sub Out will sell more amps than saying you have a Pre-Amp out. Even though you and I know, that the Pre-Out could just as easily be used as a Sub-Out. They made a marketing decision.

Steve/bluewizard
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post #32 of 327 Old 02-16-2015, 03:58 AM
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
T

For a vast majority of people, you do not need bass below about 30hz. Even many speaker with bass down to 40hz still sound very good with virtually all the music most people are likely to encounter. This is reasonably easy to find reasonably price somewhat large floorstanding speakers that reach down near 30hz.

Steve/bluewizard
This is because they do not know any better.

Tell me of the reasonably priced somewhat large loudspeaker? Show me one that isnt a column loaded with a bunch of 5 1/4 or 6.5 inch drivers.......

I have music other than pipe organ contains 20hz and lower content. I dont restrict myself to eM&M or Katy Perry.

I run large main and surround speakers. PSB Stratus Golds in the HT. Even they benefit from the use of subwoofers. And why? Well, most large full range speakers have the woofers crossed over at 500hz or so. This means they are concentrating on mid bass too. There is no reason not to implement a high quality sub once you understand this. A sub can better concentrate on the lower frequencies.

With the implementation of the exquisite Image Dynamics IDMAX12 subs my system enjoys subterranean articulation. Once you have this you cannot go back. Music and movies both enjoy the benefits of a full spectrum response.

My 2 channel system consists of Goldenear Aon 3s which do a decent job with bass. Regardless, I have implemented the Image Dynamics ID12 in a ported configuration with this system. The difference is beyond night and day. Even if I were to implement a tube preamp in a 2 channel setup there would be a sub. Always and without exception.

As far as Yamahas that deserve attention, maybe this one:

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post #33 of 327 Old 02-16-2015, 09:05 AM
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I had a Yamaha Stereo Receiver - RX-797 - with 100w/ch. While is does sound nice, and I was very satisfied for the price, and I still use it, I would say it doesn't have crisp detail. When I say crisp, I'm not talking about bright, but rather razor sharp detail at all frequencies. One could say it was a bit blurred, though that might be a bit of an overstatement.

Though my experience is limited, it seems once you cross into 4-digit model numbers (1000, 2000, 3000) the models recover this crisp detail.

The Yamaha A-S801 is currently about $899, that's a bit steep, when the Yamaha R-S700, which also has 100w/ch, is only $499. Though perhaps the crisp detail is precisely what the extra money buys you.

Steve/bluewizard
The A series adds a DAC that appears to equal, if not outperform, any external DAC that would cost as much as the difference in price between the two. I imagine that accounts for most of the cost difference.
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post #34 of 327 Old 02-16-2015, 01:43 PM
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The A series adds a DAC that appears to equal, if not outperform, any external DAC that would cost as much as the difference in price between the two. I imagine that accounts for most of the cost difference.
The "A" series ending in "1" have a DAC. The "A" Series ending in "0" do not.

Yamaha AS500 = No DAC

Yamaha AS501 = DAC


If we compare the retail price of the AS500 and the AS501, they are pretty close.

AS500 = $449
AS501 = $599

Though of course, if you can find them, the AS500 are on deep discount.

From Crutchfield's -

AS500 = $399
AS501 = $549

I suspect since the AS501 has just been introduced, the price is still a bit high. I expect it to come down after a while.

In general, the Yamaha have always been a good bargain - decent build quality, high feature set, higher than average power, decent sound.

Although you can buy DACs in the $25 to $50 range, a good DAC is going to cost in the $200 to $300 range. Again, making the Yamaha something of a bargain.

Steve/bluewizard

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post #35 of 327 Old 02-16-2015, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by tritiumglo View Post
This is because they do not know any better.

Tell me of the reasonably priced somewhat large loudspeaker? Show me one that isnt a column loaded with a bunch of 5 1/4 or 6.5 inch drivers.......
I already did. The Polk Audio RTi-A9 (3x7") with rated bass response of 30hz at -3db. That makes a fair best guess on the -6db of about 23hz to 25hz. Though the frequency limit is give as 18hz, I suspect that is down 10db. ($750 each)

If you are determined to have Big Box speakers and are determined to pay considerably for them, consider ATC and PMC.


Quote:
I have music other than pipe organ contains 20hz and lower content. I dont restrict myself to eM&M or Katy Perry.
I never said no one has content that low, I said a vast majority of people don't have content that low. And I stand by that statement.

Though I would like to know what content you have that is NOT a movie sound track that has content that low.


Quote:
. This means they are concentrating on mid bass too. There is no reason not to implement a high quality sub once you understand this. A sub can better concentrate on the lower frequencies.
Again, what non-movie content, non-pipe organ content do you have that has Sub-20hz frequencies? And please for the love of God do not say "Bass I Love You". That song is an abomination.

A Sub can better concentrate lower frequency, if only there were any lower frequencies to concentrate. Mostly what a Sub does is go BOOM.


Quote:
My 2 channel system consists of Goldenear Aon 3s which do a decent job with bass. Regardless, I have implemented the Image Dynamics ID12 in a ported configuration with this system. ...
Did I say YOU couldn't have a Sub? I don't think so. But for people on a limited budget, and my personal preference, is to dump the considerable cost of a Sub into better Front speakers.


Quote:
As far as Yamahas that deserve attention, maybe this one:
Do you know what that amp costs? We are discussing an $900 Integrated amp that had to make choices on the features they allowed to hold a price point. The above amp cost $7000. I would expect it to have more features and better sound quality. If not then a person just wasted $7000.

And by the way, for $7000 you do NOT get a built in DAC. But you do get PHONO and Pre-Amp out.

Steve/bluewizard
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post #36 of 327 Old 02-16-2015, 03:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
I already did. The Polk Audio RTi-A9 (3x7") with rated bass response of 30hz at -3db. That makes a fair best guess on the -6db of about 23hz to 25hz. Though the frequency limit is give as 18hz, I suspect that is down 10db. ($750 each)

If you are determined to have Big Box speakers and are determined to pay considerably for them, consider ATC and PMC.


I never said no one has content that low, I said a vast majority of people don't have content that low. And I stand by that statement.

Though I would like to know what content you have that is NOT a movie sound track that has content that low.


Again, what non-movie content, non-pipe organ content do you have that has Sub-20hz frequencies? And please for the love of God do not say "Bass I Love You". That song is an abomination.

A Sub can better concentrate lower frequency, if only there were any lower frequencies to concentrate. Mostly what a Sub does is go BOOM.


Did I say YOU couldn't have a Sub? I don't think so. But for people on a limited budget, and my personal preference, is to dump the considerable cost of a Sub into better Front speakers.


Do you know what that amp costs? We are discussing an $900 Integrated amp that had to make choices on the features they allowed to hold a price point. The above amp cost $7000. I would expect it to have more features and better sound quality. If not then a person just wasted $7000.

And by the way, for $7000 you do NOT get a built in DAC. But you do get PHONO and Pre-Amp out.

Steve/bluewizard
Lots of fodder for a good debate here.

- A ported speaker with a -3 dB point of 30 dB isn't going to have any significant output at 18 Hz. At 10 Hz the woofers might move but it's just a visual effect.

- Maybe the vast majority of people don't have content below 30 Hz. I do. If you have access to a music service, you have access to untold thousands of songs that have bass dipping below 30 Hz. If you had a system that could reproduce it, you're in a position to discover that music.

- You comment about a sub concentrating low frequencies does not ring true. If you use multiple subs you can significantly improve the quality and smoothness of in-room bass response. That has a lot to do with flexibility in positioning.

- In my experience, when on a budget, a pair of subs and a pair of great bookshelf speakers have more HiFi potential than spending money on larger towers.
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post #37 of 327 Old 02-16-2015, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tritiumglo View Post

Well, most large full range speakers have the woofers crossed over at 500hz or so. This means they are concentrating on mid bass too.
I'm always happy to be not included in a "most something" comment.

My two-way reQuests have a 180Hz cross.

I'll be back later...


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post #38 of 327 Old 02-16-2015, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
I already did. The Polk Audio RTi-A9 (3x7") with rated bass response of 30hz at -3db. That makes a fair best guess on the -6db of about 23hz to 25hz. Though the frequency limit is give as 18hz, I suspect that is down 10db. ($750 each)
Respectable but still not enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
If you are determined to have Big Box speakers and are determined to pay considerably for them, consider ATC and PMC.
They look good!!! My taste remains with Magico and Dynaudio for larger speakers though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
Again, what non-movie content, non-pipe organ content do you have that has Sub-20hz frequencies? And please for the love of God do not say "Bass I Love You". That song is an abomination.
Em&m is the abomination. Try TLOM for starters. I would post graphs but it would take more time than playing the quote game!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
A Sub can better concentrate lower frequency, if only there were any lower frequencies to concentrate. Mostly what a Sub does is go BOOM.
Now that is just silly. A bad sub will go "boom" right around 40-50 hz. A good sub, such as the Image Dynamics will represent various octaves with surgical precision. Try one. You will be a convert!!!!. SVS and HSU also yield great articulation with music.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
Did I say YOU couldn't have a Sub? I don't think so. But for people on a limited budget, and my personal preference, is to dump the considerable cost of a Sub into better Front speakers.
Some may have considerable cost. HSU, SVS, and ID are bargains worthy of every invested penny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
Do you know what that amp costs? We are discussing an $900 Integrated amp that had to make choices on the features they allowed to hold a price point. The above amp cost $7000. I would expect it to have more features and better sound quality. If not then a person just wasted $7000.

And by the way, for $7000 you do NOT get a built in DAC. But you do get PHONO and Pre-Amp
out.
MSRP is $7999. YOU forgot to mention that it has discrete channels and VUE METERS!!!!!
Its a unit certainly worth mentioning. Read here: http://www.ecoustics.com/products/ya...reo-amplifier/

Even the high priced Yammy is not my favorite. My taste for integrated amps is with Parasound or Mcintosh.

I like large towers too. I like them even better when they cohabitate with a good subwoofer!!!! Try it you will like it.


I need some kind of quote app to speed this up!!!.

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post #39 of 327 Old 02-16-2015, 10:17 PM
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- In my experience, when on a budget, a pair of subs and a pair of great bookshelf speakers have more HiFi potential than spending money on larger towers.
I could not agree more. To get a good set of large towers today will break the piggy bank.
Martin Logan 5k (Theos)
Tyler Acoustics, 8k
Magico 30k
Dynaudio 20k for starters.

It takes a lot less engineering and crossover magic to get a two way right than it does a 3+ way tower.

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post #40 of 327 Old 02-20-2015, 09:52 AM
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Excellent article. I was considering the Yamaha S501 because of the optical in, but I was concerned about there not being enough power at 85w/channel, but after reading this reivew and seeing that 100w/channel was no problem, I think the S501 should drive a pair of Polk RTi10s with no problem. So I think this new series is a "buy".

Thank you for the review.
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post #41 of 327 Old 02-21-2015, 11:21 AM
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Nice write up x2. I demoed an 801 and was impressed for what is essentially an all in one solution that plays extraordinarily clear with solid 2 channel imaging. The 100 watts sans a sub may not be enough in a large room but in my 16x14 room it delivered nice results. Hard to find an integrated with such a feature set and quality at this price in my humble opinion. Agree with others that bass management would of made it a perfect product to a 2 channel guy with a MM cart, such as myself.
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post #42 of 327 Old 03-02-2015, 08:54 AM
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Nice write up x2. I demoed an 801 and was impressed for what is essentially an all in one solution that plays extraordinarily clear with solid 2 channel imaging. The 100 watts sans a sub may not be enough in a large room but in my 16x14 room it delivered nice results. Hard to find an integrated with such a feature set and quality at this price in my humble opinion. Agree with others that bass management would of made it a perfect product to a 2 channel guy with a MM cart, such as myself.
How is the phono preamp? I have been waiting to hear a review of this piece because I'm trying to find an integrated with optical and sub out. The phono preamp is just gravy if I can retire my Cambridge 551p. This is a very simple second setup with Image T55 and a Subsonic 6i. The less complicated I can make it the better.

All my other stuff is NAD but i'm at a stage in my audio progression where I just want to put a record on and not care about doing anything else.
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post #43 of 327 Old 03-06-2015, 06:18 PM
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I will leave the thorough reviews to the pros and those with more experience, but I find it quite good. It replaced a Phenomena II after selling off my previous integrated, the nova220se.

I went back and forth between the two and in my opinion the difference was subtle. I get more improvement in sq by spinning a freshly vacuumed record (vs one straight out of the sleeve). Both were dead quiet and left me to enjoy my music. If you have an MC cartridge or want more flexibility to tweak settings than of course the Yam is not for you. Sounds like this doesn't matter to you. I would say test it out for 30 days as most online retailers allow.

Next, I am going to test out a Rotel ra-1570 and see how that phono compares. BTW - I have a Marantz tt15s1 with the stock virtuoso cartridge.
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post #44 of 327 Old 06-23-2015, 06:55 PM
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No pre out

I´m new in this audio field.
I've just buy this unit to power a pair of SONUS FABER venere 3 in my office, i´m still waiting for the YAMAHA unit.
I was thinking that maybe i could use the 200w of a ROTEL POWER AMP RB-1572 that i have in home to give more power to the SONUS FABER speakers and taking advantage of the YAMAHA's DAC.

I know that the A-S801 has no PRE-OUT, so i was wondering:
Can i use a LINE REC output to connect to the ROTEL 1572?
What is the difference between a LINE REC and a PRE-OUT? I have seen some italian integrated amplifiars that have a single output labeled as "REC / PRE OUT" so i assumed that in some cases is the same.

Do you think this YAMAHA will be enough for these speakers?
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post #45 of 327 Old 08-13-2015, 06:29 AM
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why they say it's 2 channel when there are 5 outputs - 4 speaker and 1 sub?
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post #46 of 327 Old 08-15-2015, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tritiumglo View Post
Looks like it just missed the mark. I see no pre outs. Only 1 sub out at a fixed 100hz.

Yamaha should take notes from Parasound on the P5 and the new Halo integrated.

The new Yamaha is a jack of no trades. A couple tweaks and it could have been really nice.
The Parasound is cheap at $2000 (P5/A23), but the Yamaha 801 is cheaper at $1000. Everything cost money.

Keep in mind we've gone about 100 years without bass management in stereo systems and have gotten along just fine.

This is what happens when you let a Surround Sound guy review a stereo amp. He doesn't get it.

It seems to me the Yamaha 801 is a near perfect amp for $1000. No it doesn't have the bells and whistles of a AVR, but those bells and whistles cost money. A $1000 AVR is not the equivalent of a $1000 Stereo amp.

I do agree that it would be nice to have Stereo Pre-Amp outputs, but the more you add - the more it costs. Likely they are trying to hit a price point as part of the design. Yamaha already gives you high value for your money, but they can only stretch that just so far.

I think it came down to a choice between traditional Stereo Pre-Amp outputs and a Sub output, in today's market I can see why they made the decision they did. Though for me personally, not being interested in a Subwoofer, I would rather have the Stereo Pre-Amp out. I have an older Yamaha Stereo Receiver that has the Jumpers between the Pre-Amp and Power Amp. I thought that was a good way of doing it.

But again, they made a marketing decision to hit a price point. In the modern world of amps and speakers, would you rather have a Sub Out or a Pre-Amp out, because in an amp of this quality at this price, I really don't think you can get both.

As to full electronic bass management, at the moment, I can only think of one Stereo amp that has this feature, and that is the Parasound. I have seen external Front/Sub crossovers, but they cost $2000 on their own. Seems a bit off to put a $2000 crossover on a $1000 amp.

True you can use PA Crossovers for Front/Sub management, but unless you are going to go to the higher end Digital Speaker Management systems, you have going to have a limited choice of slopes on the crossover. Most PA Crossovers have very steep slope in the 18db/octave and 24db/octave range.

I think the Digital Speaker Management Systems have adjustable slopes, but they convert the analog to digital, then implement the crossovers in the digital domain, then convert back to analog on the output. I've not priced them lately, but these higher and Digital Speaker Management Systems run in the range of $500 to $1000 (from memory).

And... and... they would have to be placed between the Pre-Amp and the Power Amp, which leaves out the Yamaha and about 90% of all the other amps on the market.

You have to take the amp for what it is and for what it is intended to be, not some fantasy of what you would like it to be. Yes, I wish my Ford performed like a Ferrari, but it then my Ford cost $20,000, and a Ferrari cost $200,000. Why would one even remotely expect one to perform like the other?

You can get all the features you want in this amp ...if ....if you are willing to pay $2000 to get it.

But $2000 does not make a $1000 amp, which is what they set out to do, and what they succeeded at.

Steve/bluewizard
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post #47 of 327 Old 08-15-2015, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewizard
A Sub can better concentrate lower frequency, if only there were any lower frequencies to concentrate. Mostly what a Sub does is go BOOM.



Quote:
Originally Posted by tritiumglo View Post
...

Now that is just silly. A bad sub will go "boom" right around 40-50 hz. A good sub, such as the Image Dynamics will represent various octaves with surgical precision. Try one. You will be a convert!!!!. SVS and HSU also yield great articulation with music.

....
This is an older thread, but I think it is worth clearing up this one point.

First, while I have no desire to have a Sub (at the moment), I do see their worth.

Second, what did I mean when I said the advantage of a Sub is that they go "Boom"? I think you misinterpreted, though it is easy enough to see how. But, my posts are already on the long side, and I didn't seen the need to add the additional length I'm about to add.

If you have a pair of 6.5" bookshelf speakers, then when you add a 10" or 12" sub, at those low frequencies, you are moving tremendous amounts of air relative to a 6.5" bass driver.

A 10" driver is nearly 3 (2.9x) times bigger than a 6.5" bass driver.

A 12" driver is nearly 4.5 (4.41x) times bigger than a 6.5" bass driver.

You are getting more impact, not because a Sub goes deeper, but because it pushes substantially more air.

I have four speakers on my stereo system, two with 2x8" each, and two that are 12" DIY 3-way speakers. None go below 30hz at -3db. But I move a lot of air, and as a result, I get tremendous impact from movies. Impact sufficient to cause my pant legs to flap and my hair to ruffle under the impact of bass. So, what is it I'm missing again?

I also get tremendous impact from music. Why? Because I move a lot of air.

The music that has Sub-30hz bass is rare, yes, it does exist, but like it or not, it is rare. People into Pop, Rock, and Jazz, which covers a wide swath of music, do not need Sub-30hz bass. Hip-Hop/Rap has a lot of heavy bass, but loud bass does not mean deep bass.

That's all I meant by Subs go Boom. In most commonly encountered music, Sub have impact because they move substantially more air, not because they go deeper.

Yes, Sub do go deeper, that is not in dispute. But they go deeper to no end for a vast majority of people with a vast majority of music. Keep in mind, pushing more air is not a bad thing. For those who want that impact, and already have bookshelf speakers, a Sub in proportion to the rest of the equipment is a very good solution to strong bass.

But for someone buying a new system, I would encourage Floorstanding speakers. Though a lot of individual preference comes in here. However, if having a Sub appeals to you when buying a new system, more power to you. Just understand that loud is not deep.

The difference the cost of a Sub makes is the difference between these speakers -

Marin Logan Motion 40, 2x6.5", 40hz -


http://www.crutchfield.com/p_839MO40...herrywood.html

Martin Logan Motion 60XT, 2x8", 35hz -

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_839M60X...herrywood.html

Or the difference between these two speakers -

Polk Audio RTi-A7, 2x6.5", 35hz -

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_107RTIA...ck.html?tp=185

Polk Audio RTi-A9, 3x7", 30hz -

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_107RTIA...ry.html?tp=185

There is no absolute right. It is down to personal preference. I prefer more Front speaker and no Sub, but I have no quarrel with those who prefer Bookshelf/Sub or Tower/Sub systems. Just understand what you are getting when you do that, and why it works.

Steve/bluewizard

Last edited by bluewizard; 08-15-2015 at 01:19 PM.
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post #48 of 327 Old 08-19-2015, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Soooo, not really an audiophile piece of equipment then. To bad.

You define audiophile equipment as an integrated amp that works like a multi channel AV receiver subwoofer out? Prior to home theater we all learned how to integrate a subwoofer with a stereo speaker pair. I won't write an article here describing it but it is not only possible but fairly easy to do with the controls every powered subwoofer includes and your ears. I handle my home theater that way to this day. It allows me to tweak the bass to my liking rather than to rely on a computer program to do it the way it prefers. I'm guessing but I'll bet most two channel audiophiles would rather handle their sub integration manually.


I'm not suggesting that Yamaha is an audiophile brand. But I'd bet I can get the same results Mark got and better results than an AVR can provide to compete with any audiophile brand.
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post #49 of 327 Old 08-19-2015, 06:08 AM
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Yep that is what I was trying to say as well.

2.x is the ONLY properly calibrated was to setup a system.

But is there no way to calibrate manually to your preference rather than the preference of a computer program? Can't people set up an audio system without a computer any more?
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post #50 of 327 Old 08-19-2015, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by bluewizard
A Sub can better concentrate lower frequency, if only there were any lower frequencies to concentrate. Mostly what a Sub does is go BOOM.





This is an older thread, but I think it is worth clearing up this one point.

First, while I have no desire to have a Sub (at the moment), I do see their worth.

Second, what did I mean when I said the advantage of a Sub is that they go "Boom"? I think you misinterpreted, though it is easy enough to see how. But, my posts are already on the long side, and I didn't seen the need to add the additional length I'm about to add.

If you have a pair of 6.5" bookshelf speakers, then when you add a 10" or 12" sub, at those low frequencies, you are moving tremendous amounts of air relative to a 6.5" bass driver.

A 10" driver is nearly 3 (2.9x) times bigger than a 6.5" bass driver.

A 12" driver is nearly 4.5 (4.41x) times bigger than a 6.5" bass driver.

You are getting more impact, not because a Sub goes deeper, but because it pushes substantially more air.

I have four speakers on my stereo system, two with 2x8" each, and two that are 12" DIY 3-way speakers. None go below 30hz at -3db. But I move a lot of air, and as a result, I get tremendous impact from movies. Impact sufficient to cause my pant legs to flap and my hair to ruffle under the impact of bass. So, what is it I'm missing again?

I also get tremendous impact from music. Why? Because I move a lot of air.

The music that has Sub-30hz bass is rare, yes, it does exist, but like it or not, it is rare. People into Pop, Rock, and Jazz, which covers a wide swath of music, do not need Sub-30hz bass. Hip-Hop/Rap has a lot of heavy bass, but loud bass does not mean deep bass.

That's all I meant by Subs go Boom. In most commonly encountered music, Sub have impact because they move substantially more air, not because they go deeper.

Yes, Sub do go deeper, that is not in dispute. But they go deeper to no end for a vast majority of people with a vast majority of music. Keep in mind, pushing more air is not a bad thing. For those who want that impact, and already have bookshelf speakers, a Sub in proportion to the rest of the equipment is a very good solution to strong bass.

But for someone buying a new system, I would encourage Floorstanding speakers. Though a lot of individual preference comes in here. However, if having a Sub appeals to you when buying a new system, more power to you. Just understand that loud is not deep.

The difference the cost of a Sub makes is the difference between these speakers -

Marin Logan Motion 40, 2x6.5", 40hz -

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_839MO40...herrywood.html

Martin Logan Motion 60XT, 2x8", 35hz -

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_839M60X...herrywood.html

Or the difference between these two speakers -

Polk Audio RTi-A7, 2x6.5", 35hz -

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_107RTIA...ck.html?tp=185

Polk Audio RTi-A9, 3x7", 30hz -

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_107RTIA...ry.html?tp=185

There is no absolute right. It is down to personal preference. I prefer more Front speaker and no Sub, but I have no quarrel with those who prefer Bookshelf/Sub or Tower/Sub systems. Just understand what you are getting when you do that, and why it works.

Steve/bluewizard

But your method doesn't provide for any adjustment of the amount of air you move in the bass. Every subwoofer has a volume control. The size of its driver relative to a 6.5" "woofer" is immaterial.
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post #51 of 327 Old 08-20-2015, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Viktor Pashin View Post
why they say it's 2 channel when there are 5 outputs - 4 speaker and 1 sub?
If it had a 100 speaker outputs, it would still be a two channel amp. Two Channel refers to two amp channels, or from another perspective, inside a stereo amp are 2 separate amps, one for the Left Channel and one for the Right Channel.

The Sub out is simply a Line Level output in which the Left and Right channels have been merged into a single Line Level/Low Level Mono channel.

Again, the output terminals have nothing to do with the number of amp channels, and the Sub out is driven by a small buffer amp with very limited power.

Steve/bluewizard
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post #52 of 327 Old 08-20-2015, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post
But your method doesn't provide for any adjustment of the amount of air you move in the bass. Every subwoofer has a volume control. The size of its driver relative to a 6.5" "woofer" is immaterial.
Assuming you have balanced the Front and Sub, from that point forward, any perception of increased bass is coming from driving more air.

At any volume level, a 12" bass driver is moving more air than a 6.5" bass driver at the same volume level.

And the relative size is relevant to the point I was making.

Steve/bluewizard

Last edited by bluewizard; 08-21-2015 at 03:38 AM.
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post #53 of 327 Old 08-20-2015, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post
But is there no way to calibrate manually to your preference rather than the preference of a computer program? Can't people set up an audio system without a computer any more?
Manual setup or otherwise, I think multiple subs are critical in a 2 channel listening setup. I actually think with multiple subs, you generally get very good sound without doing a lot of excessive tweaking besides taming a peak here and there.

Others will argue against 2ch music with separate subwoofers while making the claim that it will affect the imaging adversely. I find that any loss of "directionality" of the bass region is more than compensated for by a nice clean and extensive low end.

Blazar!
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
As any volume level, a 12" bass driver is moving more air than a 6.5" bass driver at the same volume level.
If one driver moves more air than the other, there would be a difference in volume level.
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Would it be a waste to use Bowers and Wilkins CM10 S2s with the as801?
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post #56 of 327 Old 01-14-2016, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Ben Withrow View Post
Bass management and a variable cross over would have made this a much more interesting piece.

They would also make it substantially more expensive. The price point goal was a powerful full-featured amp under $1000, and they hit that target.

There are only two Stereo amp that currently have bass management. The relatively modest Outlaw Receiver ($700) with fixed high pass crossovers, and the Parasound P5 ($1000) Pre-Amp with variable HP/LP crossovers. ($2000 by the time you add the Power Amp)

The Outlaw Receiver actually is pretty nice and highly rated. But I think the Yamaha AS801 appeals to me more. Though I do like the Outlaw too.

Next, I have a Stereo system because my absolute priority is Music, despite the fact that I also love Movies, but Music is priority. So my equipment is optimized around that.

And as long as we are on my system, I've measure +110dB peaks during movies with bass so intense it ruffled my hair and caused my pant legs to flap .... all with no Sub. Tell me what it is I'm missing again?

This is a particular type of amp for a particular type of person within a very particular price point. In that context, it is hitting on all cylinders.

You can wish for it to be something it is not, especially when what it is is very good.

I do agree with others, that the lack of Pre-Amp outs is something of a problem. However, the more you get the more you pay.

Yamaha weighed which was more prominent in the market, people who want Subwoofers or people who want to drive a second amp. Subwoofers won, you get one or the other but not both.

However, standard Pre-Amp outs would have easily driven both a Subwoofer or a second amps, and potentially both. So, in my view, no Sub Out, but with Pre-Outs makes more versatile amp.

But Yamaha made their choices.

Steve/bluewizard
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post #57 of 327 Old 01-14-2016, 03:22 PM
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Would it be a waste to use Bowers and Wilkins CM10 S2s with the as801?
Yes and No ..sort of ...kind of.

The Yamaha is a solid 100w/ch amp, that is more than enough to drive the B&W CM10-S2.

However, from another perspective, as a broad and general guideline, the speakers are twice the cost of the amp. The B&W CM10-S2 cost about $4000/pr implying that you should be using a $2000 amp.

So the question is - Do you have $2000 to spend?

If you do - fine.

If you don't, then you can only spend what you can spend, and if you have $1000 (a bit less actually $899), then the Yamaha is a good amp.

But there are other (near) 100w/ch amps you could consider, but first, we need to know how much you can spend?

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_022AS80....html?tp=34948

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_779CXA8....html?tp=34948

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_642PM70....html?tp=34948

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_642PM80....html?tp=34948

http://www.abt.com/product/70497/Rotel-RA1570BK.html

As roughly $1000 amps go, Yamaha 801 is high value.

Steve/bluewizard

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post #58 of 327 Old 01-14-2016, 07:52 PM
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Would it be a waste to use Bowers and Wilkins CM10 S2s with the as801?
No, it will be perfectly fine. The main questions you need to ask with modern SS amplifiers are, does it have the feature set I want, does it have enough power and will it drive the impedance of my speakers? The comment above that speaker to amp cost ratio should be 2:1 is absolute malarky and can safely be ignored.
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As far as the features go I'm happy with what it offers, it has the phono input as well as the digital and coxal. And from looking at the specs of the BW''s they are rated 30-300 watts at 8ohm so it should be OK there. I do have the money to buy a 2000.00 amp but if don't need to I would prefer not too. But the cost was part of why I was asking, I've seen some pretty mean looking high end amplifiers running the BWs, but the only reputable store in town who only sells BW's recommended the CM10s knowing that I had the 801. I am going to take the 801 in to his store to give it a try with his demo's probably tomorrow and see how it sounds. I was just looking for some advice/recommendations on if it was worth trying to drive such a high end speaker with the 801. Maybe the CM9s, or a different line all together? I did have a listed to the KefR900 with the same amp and thought they had a decent sound. Thanks for the help
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post #60 of 327 Old 01-15-2016, 01:18 AM
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Would it be blown Denon AVR-X4200 stereo performance? I will use it to drive Monitor Audio Silver 10. if yes, I will take both, AVR-X4200 and A-S801 for my HT setup.
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