Is a Stereo Integrated Amplifier better choice than an AV Receiver? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 362 Old 02-24-2016, 10:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
I have only your say so on that, and in the case of no actual evidence, I don't believe you. Anyone can assert what they like online, so it needs to be backed up.

I ran 7.6 sec for 100m in my local park last night: timed it myself on my phone. I'm going to send it off to Guinness Book of Records. I'm sure I'll be included in next years edition.

Way to shoot yourself in the foot. The testees amps in the letter I quoted were Pass units.
Your response was amusing to me. You didn't read it at all.
I read the wrong letter.

Why would I care if you believe me or not? You expect an affidavit after every DBT?

Since you believe blind testing is so important, please tell us what power amp and preamp, or integrated amp, that you own now and what competitive units you compared them against to make a final purchasing decision. Did you use DBT or ABX to make the comparisons? Include what loudspeakers, source component, and recordings you used.
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post #62 of 362 Old 02-24-2016, 10:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jaddie View Post
Ok, but you have heard of expectation bias, perception bias, etc.? Those are all powerfully present in long-term testing. Auditory memory used to compare sonic qualities falls into the category of "echoic memory", which is extremely short. Humans simply don't have the capability to compare sonic characteristics on a long term basis.

Direct comparisons can only be made with fast switching between devices under test. Biases are eliminated only with a DBT/ABX test.

However, I do understand your belief system is also powerful, and that we differ. My position is backed by research, not emotion, however. I also have already heard all the arguments against ABX/DBT, the stress, the demands, etc., so we don't really need to do that again. It is the only way to collect enough statistical data, though.
Long-term testing eliminates bias. When a person hears the same flaw or flaws again and again in a component it becomes irritating. A sonic problem that was not noticed in a blind test becomes more noticeable after repeated auditions in one's own home. Blind testing is almost useless in evaluating all aspects of a product's sonic performance.

I will ask you the same question I asked A9X-308: Since you believe blind testing is so important, please tell us what power amp and preamp, or integrated amp, that you own now and what competitive units you compared them against to make a final purchasing decision. Did you use DBT or ABX to make the comparisons? Include what loudspeakers, source component, and recordings you used.

One more item: As you said, research is what matters. So, to help those here shopping for new receivers, integrated amps, preamps, and power amps, please provide links to properly conducted DBT and ABX tests of currently available gear.
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post #63 of 362 Old 02-24-2016, 12:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Alex F. View Post
He can audition the components any way he desires. Single-blind or double-blind testing if he wants to try and mask audible differences, or normal long-term listening over several days if he wants to thoroughly evaluate all aspects of their sonic performance.
Those are various ways to audition and will lead to answer being all over the place. So which one is your recommendation to OP?
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post #64 of 362 Old 02-24-2016, 12:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Alex F. View Post
No, it does not work that way. Very little about an amplifier's specific and general sonic traits can be obtained via blind testing.
Blind listening test allows the listener to focus more on the hearing by not having the visual senses interfering, thus it makes a better auditory observation.
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post #65 of 362 Old 02-24-2016, 12:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Alex F. View Post
Long-term testing eliminates bias. When a person hears the same flaw or flaws again and again in a component it becomes irritating. A sonic problem that was not noticed in a blind test becomes more noticeable after repeated auditions in one's own home.
Who said long term test shouldn't be included in DBT?
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Blind testing is almost useless in evaluating all aspects of a product's sonic performance.
It is more useful in evaluating all sonic performance than sighted listening because of not allowing visual senses interfere with auditory senses.
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post #66 of 362 Old 02-24-2016, 01:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LFEer View Post
Those are various ways to audition and will lead to answer being all over the place. So which one is your recommendation to OP?
I answered your question in Post 39: "He can audition the components any way he desires."

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Originally Posted by LFEer View Post
Blind listening test allows the listener to focus more on the hearing by not having the visual senses interfering, thus it makes a better auditory observation.
No, it does not. As I already said in Post 42: "Very little about an amplifier's specific and general sonic traits can be obtained via blind testing. Such testing provides only snippets of what the component sounds like. Only through long-term testing can every trait be discovered."

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Originally Posted by LFEer View Post
Who said long term test shouldn't be included in DBT? It is more useful in evaluating all sonic performance than sighted listening because of not allowing visual senses interfere with auditory senses.
When I refer to "normal long-term testing" I am talking about living with a component at home in one's own system for an extended amount of time. That is how most people evaluate their audio component purchases. It requires time to hear every sonic trait of a component. Repeated listening with different source material at different volume settings brings out those traits. Eventually all biases, assuming they existed at all, will fall away. The purchaser eventually concludes whether he or she likes a given component's sonics and if the unit will stay or go back to the dealer.

Obviously you make your own purchasing decisions via bias-free blind testing, as you believe others should do. So I will ask you the same question posed to two others above: Since you believe blind testing is so important, please tell us what power amp and preamp, or integrated amp, that you own now and what competitive units you compared them against to make a final purchasing decision. Did you use DBT or ABX to make the comparisons? Include what loudspeakers, source component, and recordings you used.
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post #67 of 362 Old 02-24-2016, 02:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Alex F. View Post
I answered your question in Post 39: "He can audition the components any way he desires."
Which leads to answer being all over the place therefore essentially a none answer.
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No, it does not.
Yes, it does. It's a natural process. When you use multiple senses at once, there won't be as much focus on each sense as there would have been if you use less number of senses at once.
Quote:
When I refer to "normal long-term testing" I am talking about living with a component at home in one's own system for an extended amount of time.
What does that have to do with DBT?
Quote:
That is how most people evaluate their audio component purchases. It requires time to hear every sonic trait of a component. Repeated listening with different source material at different volume settings brings out those traits. Eventually all biases, assuming they existed at all, will fall away.
Can you back that up with evidence?
Quote:
Obviously you make your own purchasing decisions via bias-free blind testing, as you believe others should do. So I will ask you the same question posed to two others above: Since you believe blind testing is so important, please tell us what power amp and preamp, or integrated amp, that you own now and what competitive units you compared them against to make a final purchasing decision. Did you use DBT or ABX to make the comparisons? Include what loudspeakers, source component, and recordings you used.
What does that have to do with this thread?

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post #68 of 362 Old 02-24-2016, 02:53 PM
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We're done, happy posting.
Scott, pay no mind to Frank Derks. He's an angry person who resorts to name-calling and other schoolyard bully tactics in an effort to gain some internet attention.
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post #69 of 362 Old 02-24-2016, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by LFEer View Post
Yes, it dose.
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What dose that ...
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What dose that have to do with this thread?
Dose or Does.
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post #70 of 362 Old 02-24-2016, 03:13 PM
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Tony-

for purely music, yes, the integrated amp is much better.

If you want music and home theater, then, a receiver is the way to go.
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post #71 of 362 Old 02-24-2016, 03:18 PM
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Scott, pay no mind to Frank Derks. He's an angry person who resorts to name-calling and other schoolyard bully tactics in an effort to gain some internet attention.

Seems to be a bunch of that among the pocket protector set.


But yeah, we're done. I've seen that in every one of his posts. I came here to have fun and not engage in that. Btw, is there a way to block a poster?
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post #72 of 362 Old 02-24-2016, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Seems to be a bunch of that among the pocket protector set.


But yeah, we're done. I've seen that in every one of his posts. I came here to have fun and not engage in that. Btw, is there a way to block a poster?
Same here. Not sure about blocking a poster and not even inclined to give him the honor.
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post #73 of 362 Old 02-24-2016, 03:47 PM
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Same here. Not sure about blocking a poster and not even inclined to give him the honor.

Cleans up the clutter.

The rest of the Vertiscope forums have it I believe and they're all using the same forum format now that they have the monopoly on just about everything out there that's hobby related online forums.
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post #74 of 362 Old 02-24-2016, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Cleans up the clutter.

The rest of the Vertiscope forums have it I believe and they're all using the same forum format now that they have the monopoly on just about everything out there that's hobby related online forums.
Found it. Click on "User CP" to the left of "Log Out" at the top right corner. Under "Settings & Options" select "Edit Ignore List" and you can add members to your list.
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post #75 of 362 Old 02-24-2016, 04:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Alex F. View Post
I answered your question in Post 39: "He can audition the components any way he desires."
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Originally Posted by LFEer View Post
Which leads to answer being all over the place therefore essentially a none answer.
I don't know why you're offended by someone auditioning components the way he or she prefers.

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Originally Posted by Alex F. View Post
No, it does not. As I already said in Post 42: "Very little about an amplifier's specific and general sonic traits can be obtained via blind testing. Such testing provides only snippets of what the component sounds like. Only through long-term testing can every trait be discovered."
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Originally Posted by LFEer View Post
Yes, it does. It's a natural process. When you use multiple senses at once, there won't be as much focus on each sense as there would have been if you use less number of senses at once.
Since you believe using multiple senses at once is distracting and causes a loss in focus, please never drive a car.

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Originally Posted by Alex F. View Post
When I refer to "normal long-term testing" I am talking about living with a component at home in one's own system for an extended amount of time. That is how most people evaluate their audio component purchases. It requires time to hear every sonic trait of a component. Repeated listening with different source material at different volume settings brings out those traits. Eventually all biases, assuming they existed at all, will fall away. The purchaser eventually concludes whether he or she likes a given component's sonics and if the unit will stay or go back to the dealer.
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Originally Posted by LFEer View Post
Can you back that up with evidence?
Can you provide evidence otherwise? What other method do folks have to evaluate a new purchase? Do you think hobbyists who bring home a new component are so "biased" that they keep a component that sounds bad to them?

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Originally Posted by Alex F. View Post
Obviously you make your own purchasing decisions via bias-free blind testing, as you believe others should do. So I will ask you the same question posed to two others above: Since you believe blind testing is so important, please tell us what power amp and preamp, or integrated amp, that you own now and what competitive units you compared them against to make a final purchasing decision. Did you use DBT or ABX to make the comparisons? Include what loudspeakers, source component, and recordings you used.
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Originally Posted by LFEer View Post
What does that have to do with this thread?
You're the person preaching the need for and the advantages of blind testing, not me. So why not answer the question?
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post #76 of 362 Old 02-24-2016, 04:13 PM
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found it. Click on "user cp" to the left of "log out" at the top right corner. Under "settings & options" select "edit ignore list" and you can add members to your list.

thank you!!!!!


Poof he's gone.
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post #77 of 362 Old 02-24-2016, 05:32 PM
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Yes, it does. It's a natural process. When you use multiple senses at once, there won't be as much focus on each sense as there would have been if you use less number of senses at once.
While the blind may have heightened auditory abilities, the average non-blind person doesn't gain those capabilities by closing their eyes.

Besides, what does that have to do with DBT. DBT doesn't mean people sitting around with blindfolds on or their eyes shut. You could as easily argue that depriving the brain of knowing what is producing the sound it is hearing takes processing power away from analyzing that sound to see how it is different from another sound and uses that processing power to try to figure out what is making the sound. Does anyone know how not knowing what you are hearing affects the way the brain processes sounds or what exactly happens in the brain in a DBT vs a sighted test when listening to the same clips? I think the reliance on bias might be an easy way out of digging deeper into the issue.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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post #78 of 362 Old 02-24-2016, 07:51 PM
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Who said long term test shouldn't be included in DBT?
If by "long term test" you mean long listening periods combined with judgement, then any number of people could have. Echoic memory is measured in milliseconds, a second or so at most. You therefore cannot use long term evaluations in an ABX, and even if done in some sort of DBT the human ability to reliably detect subtle differences drops into statistical noise.
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It is more useful in evaluating all sonic performance than sighted listening because of not allowing visual senses interfere with auditory senses.
Right but bias isn't confined to visual input, it's far more involved. You can have no other sensory input, but have knowledge of which device you're hearing and the data becomes biased.
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post #79 of 362 Old 02-24-2016, 08:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Has any reviewer ever opened an stereo integrated amplifier and an AVR from the same manufacturer to see if they use different electronics, capacitors, power supply etc?
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post #80 of 362 Old 02-24-2016, 08:29 PM
 
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Since you believe using multiple senses at once is distracting and causes a loss in focus, please never drive a car.
Please quote where I said there is a loss of focus.
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Can you provide evidence otherwise?
You are the one who made the claim, so the onus is on you to back it up.
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You're the person preaching the need for and the advantages of blind testing, not me. So why not answer the question?
What does that have to do with what component someone has at home?
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post #81 of 362 Old 02-24-2016, 08:37 PM
 
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If by "long term test" you mean long listening periods combined with judgement, then any number of people could have. Echoic memory is measured in milliseconds, a second or so at most. You therefore cannot use long term evaluations in an ABX, and even if done in some sort of DBT the human ability to reliably detect subtle differences drops into statistical noise.
What I meant by long term was what that problem forum member was referring to, the familiarity with the component as in the duration of ownership.
Quote:
Right but bias isn't confined to visual input, it's far more involved. You can have no other sensory input, but have knowledge of which device you're hearing and the data becomes biased.
I agree but that problem forum member doesn't seem to care about it.
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post #82 of 362 Old 02-24-2016, 08:56 PM
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What I meant by long term was what that problem forum member was referring to, the familiarity with the component as in the duration of ownership.
I agree but that problem forum member doesn't seem to care about it.
Gotcha. Sorry.
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post #83 of 362 Old 02-24-2016, 09:11 PM
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What I meant by long term was what that problem forum member was referring to, the familiarity with the component as in the duration of ownership.
I agree but that problem forum member doesn't seem to care about it.

Agree. Like these B&W 685S2 I bought about a year ago. I liked them at first, but they became more irritating over time due to a bump in the 150-200hz range and also the lower treble.

It's sorta similar to way back when in the early 90s when I had ML CLSs and Sound Lab Pristines then A3s and also the VTL 300s and Adcom 555 as in the Stereophile blind test. Didn't much notice the differences at first, but over time I became agitated at the Adcom except in the bass whereas the bass was tighter and with better punch than the VTLs, which were more ill defined and loose. I was really hopeful for the Adcom because it was a lot of power for little money.

Then a good friend of mine who was going to Europe for most of the summer, then moving to the bay area, lent me his ARC Classic 150s while he was gone. I really really didn't want to like these because they were twice the money of my VTLs, but you can guess the rest of the story, and it ended up costing me a big bunch of money.

I also had a Counterpoint SA220 and the smaller Adcom 535, which I frankly found to be a more refined sounding amp than the bigger 555. The Counterpoint really sucked in comparison to the VTLs and I don't even want to say compared the ARC Classic 150s that I just couldn't afford.

I think it was during this time that I had a pair of non electrostats and that being the DCM Time Windows so it was a mess around there.

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post #84 of 362 Old 02-24-2016, 09:16 PM
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While the blind may have heightened auditory abilities, the average non-blind person doesn't gain those capabilities by closing their eyes.
Not to the same extent as a blind person, but depriving yourself of sight does permit better focus on other sensory input. It's one of the reasons serious evaluative listening is often done in the dark.
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Besides, what does that have to do with DBT. DBT doesn't mean people sitting around with blindfolds on or their eyes shut. You could as easily argue that depriving the brain of knowing what is producing the sound it is hearing takes processing power away from analyzing that sound to see how it is different from another sound and uses that processing power to try to figure out what is making the sound.
Actually, not bad! Kinda, sorta how it works.
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Does anyone know how not knowing what you are hearing affects the way the brain processes sounds or what exactly happens in the brain in a DBT vs a sighted test when listening to the same clips?
Sure, it's well known, though bias doesn't specifically impact how the hearing system detects sounds, it impacts the interpretation of those sounds. Put another way, bias doesn't affect how we hear it affects how we interpret what we hear. But the entire system is self contained, the ear/brain system is a unit. The point of a double-blind test is to remove as much bias as possible. In a ABX/DBT, a listener would not know what A or B is, and then he's asked to match A or B to X, which is randomized for each trial. And the test is not "administrated" by a third party (he might not be "blind", and thus may become a bias), the test is handled by the listener and an ABX controller. That's why it's "double blind".

Sight of a situation creates expectation, which, if the real results are nearly identical, clearly sways the listeners choice based on expectation. So strong is this expectation that you can actually create a variation of the ABX "control" test, where the listener sees and knows the A choice, and sees and knows the B choice (a lesser quality device), except unknown to him, the B choice is a dummy, and what he's hearing are two A choices. Listeners will detect a difference in that sighted scenario that significantly exceeds 50%, and will reflect their expectations. It's a proof of expectation bias.

In the ABX/DBT control test, A, B, and X are all identical, but unknown to the listener. The listener then runs a series of trials, and produces 50% results. It's part of how we verify the test system.
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post #85 of 362 Old 02-24-2016, 09:28 PM
 
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Please quote where I said there is a loss of focus. You are the one who made the claim, so the onus is on you to back it up. What does that have to do with what component someone has at home?
Post 67, you said: "When you use multiple senses at once, there won't be as much focus on each sense as there would have been if you use less number of senses at once."

I stated in Post 62 that "Long-term testing eliminates bias. When a person hears the same flaw or flaws again and again in a component it becomes irritating. A sonic problem that was not noticed in a blind test becomes more noticeable after repeated auditions in one's own home." Thus if a hobbyist finds that he or she does not like the sonics of a new component, the product will be returned to the dealer. If they were initially "biased" in favor of the component, the decision to return it means the initial bias that led to the purchase evaporated. You require proof of the obvious?

Your continued refusal to tell us about your own use of blind testing to evaluate components for purchase makes it clear that what you preach to others does not apply to you.

Good night.
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post #86 of 362 Old 02-24-2016, 09:37 PM
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Not to the same extent as a blind person, but depriving yourself of sight does permit better focus on other sensory input. It's one of the reasons serious evaluative listening is often done in the dark.
Actually, not bad! Kinda, sorta how it works.
Sure, it's well known, though bias doesn't specifically impact how the hearing system detects sounds, it impacts the interpretation of those sounds. Put another way, bias doesn't affect how we hear it affects how we interpret what we hear. But the entire system is self contained, the ear/brain system is a unit. The point of a double-blind test is to remove as much bias as possible. In a ABX/DBT, a listener would not know what A or B is, and then he's asked to match A or B to X, which is randomized for each trial. And the test is not "administrated" by a third party (he might not be "blind", and thus may become a bias), the test is handled by the listener and an ABX controller. That's why it's "double blind".

Sight of a situation creates expectation, which, if the real results are nearly identical, clearly sways the listeners choice based on expectation. So strong is this expectation that you can actually create a variation of the ABX "control" test, where the listener sees and knows the A choice, and sees and knows the B choice (a lesser quality device), except unknown to him, the B choice is a dummy, and what he's hearing are two A choices. Listeners will detect a difference in that sighted scenario that significantly exceeds 50%, and will reflect their expectations. It's a proof of expectation bias.

In the ABX/DBT control test, A, B, and X are all identical, but unknown to the listener. The listener then runs a series of trials, and produces 50% results. It's part of how we verify the test system.

"serious evaluative listening is often done in the dark."


Agree with this. My serious listening is always in complete dark, and I can get that room completely totally dark. Plus, it's the reason I poo poo someone attempting critical listening in an HT environment. No way on earth I could do that with the screen on.
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post #87 of 362 Old 02-24-2016, 10:16 PM
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To Your Question

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Originally Posted by Tony_Montana View Post
Hello guys!

All this time i was thinking that stereo integrated receivers have more value than AV receivers for 2-Channel Audio.
Less inputs, less channels, less digital circuits, no room correction etc will allow companies to use better electronics,better analog circuits and more watts for the (only) two channels.
But reading specs from the manufacturer sites, it seems that there aren't any benefits.
Most of the times you buy the same (or less) watts for the same price.
So is there any benefit to buy a Stereo integrated Amplifier instead of an AVR for the same money?
(i.e. an Yamaha A-S501 instead of a RX-V679 or an A-S801 instead of a RX-A850, a Marantz PM8005 vs SR6010 etc)
In recent years I have used Yamaha, Pioneer and Denon Audio Video Receivers (AVR). I also have Emotiva, NAD, and Sunfire separate amps. Call me crazy, but I cannot hear a whole lot of difference between any of these devices. There does seem to be a difference in room correction software, and I am partial to the Audyssey software in the Denon 5200 which I am currently using, although I can appreciate folks who are partial to other software. Either way one goes can be used in the future. If you buy a two channel amp and pre-amp now and choose to use an AVR in the future, you can hook the amp to the AVR and reduce the load on the AVR. If you buy the AVR now and only use two channels, you will not be taxing the AVR to any great extent, and you might decide to add a few speakers in the future.

As I think about it, I am not able to comment on a two-channel integrated amp. It has been many years since I had one. I do remember thinking I was very cool with my Sansui amp, Teac reel-to-reel tape and Pioneer speakers. That was before surround sound and separate sub-woofers. No, no I think I am going with the 9 channel Denon 5200 even though it is now obsolete. It's on 5 or 6 hours a day playing music and movie and the new Dolby Surround (DSU) format is great.
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7.4.6 system with Denon 8500, Additional Amps: Emotiva (front and center) and NAD (wide), classic Klipsch speakers.
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post #88 of 362 Old 02-24-2016, 11:50 PM
 
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Post 67, you said:"When you use multiple senses at once, there won't be as much focus on each sense as there would have been if you use less number of senses at once."
Your senses would be at normal level of concentration as anyone else doing X number of tasks at once. When you reduce the number of tasks, your sense can be more concentrated, thus the blind listening test allows the listeners to have higher concentration on their aural sense, contrary to your claim.
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I stated in Post 62 that "Long-term testing eliminates bias. When a person hears the same flaw or flaws again and again in a component it becomes irritating. A sonic problem that was not noticed in a blind test becomes more noticeable after repeated auditions in one's own home."
You must have a different definition of double blind listening test. Who said you're not allowed to have long term test with DBT?
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Your continued refusal to tell us about your own use of blind testing to evaluate components for purchase makes it clear that what you preach to others does not apply to you.
What was it that I preached? Can you quote it?
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post #89 of 362 Old 02-24-2016, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
"serious evaluative listening is often done in the dark."


Agree with this. My serious listening is always in complete dark, and I can get that room completely totally dark. Plus, it's the reason I poo poo someone attempting critical listening in an HT environment. No way on earth I could do that with the screen on.
I've heard of a well-known high-end writer who did his serious listening drunk and at high volumes. I don't know if the room was dark.
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post #90 of 362 Old 02-25-2016, 03:15 AM
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As you've learned, answers to your questions are all over the place. There is only one way to find what component will make you happy: Decide on one specific integrated amplifier and one specific AV receiver. Borrow demo units from a local dealer or two, if possible, or purchase them from dealers with worry-free refund policies. You already know where this is going. Yes, audition them at home in your own system using favorite recordings. You will have your answer.
I'm not sure it can be better explained than this...

Just to share a bit of my experience, the Pioneer 1018ah-k is rated at 110W/ch and the NAD at 50W/ch...

As far as 2-Channel audio is concerned all the digital capabilities on the Pioneer totals to zero value when you hear the NAD sing...

Pick one of each and audition at home... you won't regret it...
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